Rigol MSO7000 Unboxing & First Impressions

[Wolfgang]

..High profile reviews like Dave does can determine buyers decisions for years to come, something Dave is more aware of in today's truly international marketplace.

Do you think a reviewer with "his hands tied together with such a tremendous responsibility" can provide a truly independent review??

As a responsible journalist, what you write must be true, nothing else. A journalist is not responsible for the outcome on companies or markets. Anything else is just sick thinking (like journalist are supposed not to write about the German Diesel scandal because if could affect the profitability of VW or the situation on the labour market).

In the end, the manufacturs are responsible to

- Create great products
- Test them thorouhly and properly
- Create an understandable documentation
- Ask for a reasonable price
- Stick to the truth in their marketing claims
- Be responsive in case of problems

The journalist is ONLY repsonsible for checking if the issues above are reasonably met or not.

It is absoultely ridiculous to say that Dave is responsible for RIGOLs poor workers in a Chinese factory. They are not poor, they are free to develop anything they like, and they are responsible for it. Dave is responsibly only for that this findings are true and how he presents them.

[DuPe]

Quote from: Wolfgang on Today at 11:28:38

...
I remember Daves review of the first DP832s; The review was put online, RIGOL reworked their mainboard fixing some problems (even replacing the mainboards of existing customers free of charge) and Dave did a follow-up review where he stated that its OK now.
......

Hi Wolfgang,

do you have any more information on "replacing ..."?

I have one of the early dp832 and especially overshoot at poweron annoys me a lot

Thanks

Peter

[Wolfgang]

Hi Peter,

IIRC, the issue was that RIGOL intentionally (or by stupidity) placed a much too small cooler with a voltage regulator running far more than 100 °C in the absoulte vicinity of two electrolytic capacitor ensuring that they have a rather short life. There was a lot of space around, so they did this with no explicable reason.

They fixed this in newer versions (I have 4 DP832As, but only the newer type), and they said that owners of the old version could send in theirs for a new free mainboard.

The behaviour of RIGOL at the time was a reason why I bought quite some RIGOL stuff. To me, these people appeared as honest and dependable. Eveyony can make errors, but they stood up for it and fixed it. It was a trustbuilding measure.

For more info, why dont you have a look on Daves first and second review of the DP832 here on EEVBlog ?

PS: I have heard of the overshoot problem, but I need to measure this one with the versions I have.

[DuPe]

Thanks for the hint Wolfgang,
I watched the update, but this was only some news for the overtemperature issue.
Seems there is no solution for the overshoot.


Anyhow I will stop now to hijack this thread further and wait for some update for the mso7000


Thanks again
Peter

[bugi]

As a responsible journalist, what you write must be true, nothing else.

I think this is getting way off-topic, and perhaps we should continue in a proper section, but...
Afaik, that simple approach to morals and ethics of journalism has been thrown to garbage bin in most western cultures decades ago (and not because evil intent or corruption, but because it has been found to be insufficient). I could give quite simple counter-examples, but I'd do that only in another section (in a more on-topic thread).

[nctnico]

There is an user who owns 7000 for several weeks and he has already found an issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1749839/#msg1749839

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).

I do not think so.
An independent review shows the reality as-is at the time of the review.
Otherwise you will wait forever.. And the review is not independent anymore as it depends on the vendor's will..

The truth is somewhere in the middle. While making my own reviews I report bugs / shortcomings to the manufacturer and in some cases they provide a fix for some of the problems found during the review period. But I'm not going to wait forever because when people buy the instrument shortly after the review they'll also receive what I've reviewed at that moment. If a piece equipment isn't really ready for release then it is bad luck for the manufacturer but the review goes online.

[1anX]

Perhaps Dave could add his comments regarding when the teardown and review will be available?

It just triggered my "whats up" reaction when there was no follow up to the preliminary teardown. I wondered if he had encountered a problem and perhaps contacted Rigol.

I dont doubt the review it will get from Dave will be a complete warts and all look at the new scope. You just have to look at the abundant commentary and number of firmware fixes going on with Dave's own 121GW meter to know that all will be revealed!

Rigol will get an honest assessment of their 7000 series scope, I'm just hoping the review will come out sometime soon as the scope has me interested.

[bitseeker]

Well, it's a tradeoff: more info vs. earlier video release.

[CustomEngineerer]

Perhaps Dave could add his comments regarding when the teardown and review will be available?

Or perhaps you could just wait until its ready and stop acting like he owes you anything. All this random speculation is pointless. It will be ready when its ready.

[MT]

How can they fail so miserably with the frontpanel on 11.5kusd scope!?

[ebastler]

Worth repeating...

Why? That post takes up a lot of screen space and looks ugly.

[fonograph]

Worth repeating...

Why? That post takes up a lot of screen space and looks ugly.

Not as ugly as Rigol though. 

[EEVblog]

Perhaps Dave could add his comments regarding when the teardown and review will be available?

I don't know, I'm just snowed under at the moment with lots of stuff.

[EEVblog]

There is an user who owns 7000 for several weeks and he has already found an issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds7000/msg1749839/#msg1749839

A review remains unchanged for years on the Internet - even though the firmware has long since been updated several times. If there are major problems now, I think it's only fair if Dave informs Rigol and requests a feedback (or maybe he was promised a rush job of bug fixing of the firmware and he is waiting for this).

I do not think so. An independent review shows the reality as-is at the time of the review. Otherwise you will wait forever.. (and the review is not independent anymore as it depends on the vendor's will)..

Well, we disagree here. In my opinion it is a sign of good journalism to give others the opportunity to express themselves on reproaches. If Dave should have found bigger bugs (which he did not mention anywhere and which is pure speculation!), then it is absolutely legitimate to give Rigol the possibility to provide an answer, most of all as this is a brand new product which can never be bug free. And should Rigol say: "Please wait another week with the review, because we are developing and testing a new and much much better firmware", then it is in the interest of all future potential buyers to postpone the review for this long. That doesn't mean he shouldn't mention the problems! But it would be much more helpful and professional to add an "already fixed" to this.

Postponing/waiting has nothing to do with 'not being independent'. EEVblog is not  "Fox News" or "The Sun". And Dave certainly won't wait forever. But if it's just a few days, it's good for all of us (win-win) as you get a review of a device including the latest firmware.
What you are asking for is a bashing now ('hurry before they come up with bug fixes') with showing bugs that would be fixed long before the device is delivered to you. But in the end would only be good for entertaining some, not for providing hints if to buy the product or not. That doesn't help anyone - so it would be a loose-lose situation (well OK: a win for the entertaining).

I have not touched the scope since I did the unboxing, I've been busy with other stuff.

[1anX]

Dave, a lot of us are hoping it will be hackable, as mentioned in this thread and others. The thing is though we need to know if it works as claimed and your the man we rely on, (or at least I do) for the real true to life review.

I hope you find time soon to review it, as you are responsible for me buying a Rigol scope and power supply, as I took you at your word for their capabilities, or lack thereof. If I'm going to buy yet another Rigol instrument, I want to know if its value for money!

[Fungus]

How can they fail so miserably with the frontpanel on 11.5kusd scope!?

Not many of them will be sold for 11.5kusd

[Wolfgang]

I could well be alone with my opinion about RIGOL scope hacking,
but I think that somebody paying a few k€ for a scope (i.e. thats mostly pro people) will risk to loose warranty and support because he hacked his scope from some dubious internet source. What might be an awkward selling argument at the low end (... we dont give you a rebate, but we tolerate or even ecourage if you cheat on us) is not an option for investment-priced machinery.

[2N3055]

I could well be alone with my opinion about RIGOL scope hacking,
but I think that somebody paying a few k€ for a scope (i.e. thats mostly pro people) will risk to loose warranty and support because he hacked his scope from some dubious internet source. What might be an awkward selling argument at the low end (... we dont give you a rebate, but we tolerate or even ecourage if you cheat on us) is not an option for investment-priced machinery.

Entering the license in a scope doesn't invalidate warranty, especially in EU.
Your calibration statement won't be valid anymore though. Which is funny, because scope's calibration is done for full bandwidth, because of end user software enabling of BW.
So, it will still be in calibration, just not formally.

If you use it in company for critical work, and you have to show calibration documents and such, no you can't have it hacked.

If you use it to make money, pay for what you use. It is  a proper thing to do.
Like you want to be paid for your work, so does the guys that made tools that you use to earn you pay..

For hobby use (or education) I really don't care if you "unlock" features.

[darkstar49]

If you use it in company for critical work, and you have to show calibration documents and such, no you can't have it hacked.

Well, that's most probably true for 'companies'... for self-employed (and similar), professional work can perfectly justify the use of a somewhat higher-end scope, while not necessarily having the budget for a 'full-blown' machine... In theory, there's no discussion about hacking scopes used 'commercially', in reality, there's however some sort of twilight zone here... 

And honestly, when one sees how BW upgrades are typically priced, this is really calling for hacked machines !
If've heard companies arguing that corporates typically get significant rebates on those... so at the end, those who would be able to pay for the options get 60 or 70% rebate, and those who can't afford them (at list price), don't get any rebate... while this might commercially make sense, it actually creates the conditions for some to consider hacking their scopes...




 

[2N3055]

And honestly, when one sees how BW upgrades are typically priced, this is really calling for hacked machines !
If've heard companies arguing that corporates typically get significant rebates on those... so at the end, those who would be able to pay for the options get 60 or 70% rebate, and those who can't afford them (at list price), don't get any rebate... while this might commercially make sense, it actually creates the conditions for some to consider hacking their scopes...

This is absolute gold... I HATE haggling, it is disrespectful and waste of my time, that "respectable" T&M manufacturers are expecting me to negotiate  in same manner like I'm buying potatoes and chickens on Oriental market ....
And then, they just fu*k me off to some local distributor, back to listed prices, because they don't want to give me any discounts because I'm buying just one..  And they have that attitude towards THOUSANDS of small companies ... Keysight , R&S, Tektronix, they all did it to me...
If you are small company, they are downright condescending, they behave like I walked in a Ferrari dealership with 1000 € asking for a good deal...
Which, actually is not even a good comparison, because a friend of mine did exactly that once (he was bored). In fact the guy that approached him didn't even skip a beat, dead serious he explained that what they sell is very expensive and said that his boss also own Fiat dealership down the street, gave him the card and said to go there and see if they might have something for him... All polite... My friend felt bad, apologized, and guy was laughing, all good... That is a good salesman.

My experience during years with big T&M manufacturers was quite the opposite...
 

[Wolfgang]

... not my experience. I bought a lot of T&M stuff recently (see my profile), and what I can say is:

- Top brand manufacturers give double the rebate as the Chinese brands
- But you have to motivate them to do so.
- Key is competition. I always tested several machines, and I would openly tell them about that
  Before loosing a sale, they will adapt their prices.

I try to be tough, but also to be fair. You normally see each other more than once in your engineering life.

[2N3055]

... not my experience. I bought a lot of T&M stuff recently (see my profile), a

Just a today's new experience:

I went to R&S site last Friday and left a "make me an offer". I chose RTM3004 + 200MHz upgrade +App bundle  .
Today, receive a mail from local Croatian company I never heard of. With an offer for a 1 GHz  RTM3000 + app bundle and 5 year extended warranty..
I asked for a config in 5000-6500 € range and received offer to buy 18500 € config.... Yeah, almost the same...
I really don't feel at all to be calling them at this point.  They are obviously idiots. Yes, idiots.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Wolfgang]

Negotiating with T&M companies is an iterative process. Their first try is always something like the list price. Forget about that.
If they are asked for substantial rebates, they need a justification, there is paperwork for them, ... They are only human and a bit lazy, too.

This is how I did it:
I told them that I will not only try theirs, but also units from their competitors. I gave model numbers, I told them where they were better and
they were worse, I published my tests on the net. So, they had the best (and probably the only effective) reason for substantial rebates: *competition*.
That worked.

Example for some tests:
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/a-high-speed-oscilloscope-comparison/
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/rf-signal-generator-am-modulation-quality/
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/rf-signal-generator-iq-modulation-quality/

[nctnico]

Negotiating with T&M companies is an iterative process. Their first try is always something like the list price. Forget about that.
If they are asked for substantial rebates, they need a justification, there is paperwork for them, ... They are only human and a bit lazy, too.

A couple of years ago I was trying to get a reasonable price for a Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000. The local Lecroy dealer proposed a Rigol oscilloscope instead. Seriously? 

[Wolfgang]

Try again. Nowadays they will be a lot more cooperative, believe me. The times where a "nose up" attitude impresses people is long gone, and there is a *lot* more competition on the scope market than some years ago. New players: Siglent, Rohde & Schwarz, the new Rigols, ...
When you have a unique product in the market things are different. But a WaveSurfer ?! Thats ordinary fare.