Author Topic: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?  (Read 1470 times)

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Offline Wolfgang

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RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« on: August 26, 2018, 01:16:23 am »
Hi,

I use RIGOL equipment a lot, and in the beginning I liked it because it just worked and did what I wanted. If there was an issue,
they were fast and helpful. See here

https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/

to check what I use.

In the recent past, however, there were some findinds where I found RIGOL equipment not to all that great, on several occasions:

- the DSG815 and DSG830 RF generators have a rather unclean modulation quality
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/rf-signal-generator-am-modulation-quality/

- the non-IQ pro model RF generator DSG3060 is fine but the IQ modulation in the DSG3060IQ model was strongly out of balance, with no
way to manually even this out like on the Keysights. Moreover, the minimum carrier frequency for the DSG3060IQ is 50MHz.
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/test-equipment/test-equipment-measurements/rf-signal-generator-iq-modulation-quality/

- the last issue I had (and still have) is the M300 data logger MC3324 combined voltage / current measurement card. It *disrupts* the current of a DUT with every measurement cycle. I reported this as a severe bug.

Well, any manufacturer has issues, and normally they correct that. In my case, *nothing* has been done. I asked, and they said that the DSGs will  not be changed, and for the M300 problem I got the answer that had no resources to work on this problem.

I remember some old times when Dave Jones found some design flaws in a DP832, and RIGOL replaced the mainboards for all users and redesigned it. This - at least for me - was a good argument to buy from this company.

Whats your impression today with RIGOL products and support today ?




-
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2018, 05:04:57 am »
I have no insight as to what is happening inside Rigol, however it is routine that products nearing the end of their market life cycle are essentially orphaned. At the time of Dave's review the 832 was newly introduced, and Dave is very high profile. They couldn't ignore him. So using Dave's video as an indicator of future support is a hazardous extrapolation. Around the same time the 832 came out there were youtube reviews of the DS40xx (Conner Wolf I think) complaining about unfixed bugs and callous support. Life is unfair.
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2018, 05:18:53 am »
Maybe you're right, but then my recommendation to buy RIGOL products when:

- they have a high volume only
- they are more than 1 year on the market
- critiques and reviews are very positive

is essentially correct. On the other hand, RIGOL wants to play with the big boys. With a quality and support standard like
this it will not happen so easily.

So, RIGOL mass products OK, more expensive, pro or exotic stuff - beware.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2018, 05:39:06 am »
Maybe you're right, but then my recommendation to buy RIGOL products when:

- they have a high volume only
- they are more than 1 year on the market
- critiques and reviews are very positive

is essentially correct. On the other hand, RIGOL wants to play with the big boys. With a quality and support standard like
this it will not happen so easily.

So, RIGOL mass products OK, more expensive, pro or exotic stuff - beware.
Both Rigol and Siglent have trouble understanding that being a serious contender means building long term relationships, or providing consistent support. I've been told by people with more experience in dealing with Chinese manufacturers that they're not used to investing in long term relationships and that this is a still developing mentality.
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2018, 05:41:14 am »
... probably a good explanation of their current mindset. Support only when you must or the public disgrace is too painful.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 05:45:07 am »
... probably a good explanation of their current mindset. Support only when you must or the public disgrace is too painful.
It should be noted that western mentality seems to be declining when it comes to warranty and long term customer relationships. Very few companies are going out of their way to be properly helpful and a lot of once decent brands are bought and forced to reduce product quality.
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2018, 05:51:16 am »
... thats why I like my old-style boatanchored Keysight stuff (E5071C, N9000A, DSOS0604A, N5171/72B, 34465A...) so much. They are *not* modern. But they stood the test of time, and their bugs are mostly gone. I can do without Windows10, fingerprints on my screens, animated gimmicks and software catastrophies like BenchVue (looks like a hopelessly misdesign space invaders GUI). 3 years warranty are a must.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2018, 05:54:41 am »
... mass products OK, more expensive, pro or exotic stuff - beware.

Yeah, that's a good generalization. More eyeballs = more problems detected and higher pressure to fix them.

Even the DS1054Z took a few years to get the kinks worked out. The "bleeding edge" is aptly named and a pain to ride on.
You don't acquire TEA. It acquires you.
 

Offline imo

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2018, 06:31:18 am »
All those Chinese companies you write about were founded ~20-30y ago by HP, IBM, Tek, .. as their cheapest production sites. Since then the guys gathered good manufacturing skills, learned a bit of R&D, and they started to produce their own products.

They still are lacking what their "big founders" possessed at the time the production in China started, however,  - a large world-wide customer's support organizations (quite expensive, btw.).

And while the original "big founders" see these smaller far-east manufacturers are pretty successful with their today's business model (a cheap mass production with "as-is" level of quality), they slowly start to accommodate their model too..  :)
 

Online Bud

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2018, 06:37:11 am »
... probably a good explanation of their current mindset. Support only when you must or the public disgrace is too painful.

I am sure the Chinese do not give crap about any of these two.
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2018, 06:40:12 am »
... at the low end the Chinese are tough competitors, because

- their *mass* products usually work
- they are "good enough" for most applications, say 95%
- a premium brand instrument costs a lot more for the same performance. What it can do extra is rarely needed.

At the high end - different story. Users are much more intolerant for bugs and silly errors. And they want a clean record
with long-term support.
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2018, 06:43:36 am »
I would not be so sure that they can completely ignore reviews and user response.
At the long run, its your good reputation that makes people buy your stuff.

If you once bought some junk from a manufacturer or had lousy support, your learning curve will prevent another buy.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2018, 09:31:19 pm »
... at the low end the Chinese are tough competitors, because

- their *mass* products usually work
- they are "good enough" for most applications, say 95%
- a premium brand instrument costs a lot more for the same performance. What it can do extra is rarely needed.
That is true. Unfortunately for me it meant buying the premium brand equipment in the end a couple of times already. It is frustrating because time & money are wasted and projects get delayed.

If you once bought some junk from a manufacturer or had lousy support, your learning curve will prevent another buy.
I'm done buying the 'cheaper' pieces of test equipment when it comes to more complex types of equipment because in the end they don't deliver.

The Chinese will continue to sell low quality equipment because there is a sucker born every minute. Most people just can't ignore a lower price for something which seems to deliver the same at first glance.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 09:40:54 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2018, 04:09:09 am »
The Chinese will continue to sell low quality equipment because there is a sucker born every minute. Most people just can't ignore a lower price for something which seems to deliver the same at first glance.

Or the buyers are hobbyists with low requirements and lacking in the sophistication to miss the more advanced features.

One needs to separate production from hobby.  For the hobbyist, Rigol is probably good enough (at least I like my 1054Z and 832).  But my needs are modest!  It's just a hobby!  And it's not my most expensive hobby.

In a commercial setting, I wouldn't have Rigol or Siglent or any of the other off-brands in the building - at any level.  It would be Tektronix, Keysight and Fluke - nothing but the best when the investment is tax deductible,  even if it is only the appearance of 'best'.  I'm not sure of this but I'll bet the military contractors in the US are not using Rigol.  But it's just a guess...  Not a bad guess considering the contractually required calibration cycles.  I like my Aneng 8008 but I doubt if it could be used on an F35.

 

Offline bugi

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2018, 06:59:14 am »
I like my Aneng 8008 but I doubt if it could be used on an F35.
Couldn't resist... considering the reputation of the F35 development and results, they probably did use at least some Anengs during the project  ::)

Also, there are things even in high quality production that could be completed just as well (and without breaking standards or whatnot) with any crap device(s), given just minor precautions. However, getting off topic so I'll leave the rest of that to each others imagination.
 

Offline lordvader88

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2018, 11:52:46 pm »
LOL bugi, yup, windows8 and DSO 138 scopes

I'm hoping the engines and airframes are built better
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2018, 12:35:05 am »
I contacted support many times during the 4000 series fiasco, it was a horrible experience.

Online Bud

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2018, 02:11:49 am »
You cant change the Culture overnight. It will take another generation or two, providing it is paid attention to. Which i do not think it is.
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2018, 02:51:56 am »
I think it's been pointed out on these forums several times that the Chinese manufacturers will sell you what you want to buy.  If you want cut-rate cheap hardware, they'll sell it to you.  If you want well-built, quality gear, they'll sell that too.  Don't expect quality at the very lowest prices though.  The hobbyists are buying the low priced equipment in droves, and it's good enough for 90% of hobby use.  Lots of people expect that a full-featured piece of test gear has to be top notch quality, but that's not how it works when you're designing to a specific price.

Heck, the low end Tektronix scopes are made in China too - does that mean Tek scopes are considered crap now? (that's not a troll; the answer may well be 'yes' around here)
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2018, 03:04:07 am »
... the really cheap, mass produced stuff seems to be of a lesser problem nowadays because the seem to have got the bugs out by now (DP832,DSA815,DG1000Z,MSO1000Z).

The problems start with stuff that is not all that cheap anymore (DSG815/830,DSG3060IQ,M300, ...) and where they claim that they can play with the big boys.
They cant, and pro users will not tolerate silly bugs or bad service. The price difference from them to a (rebated) Keysight is simply to small, IMHO.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2018, 05:01:38 am »
Wolfgang, I have a DS4014 purchased from their US clearance store (early 2015) and I had great support from them in the purchase process and information about new firmware (I have never had to use their service). I intercepted the end of their development and support cycle for this family of oscilloscopes, therefore I saw only two firmware updates but the product was overall very stable - many other users of the same family had worse experiences as their purchases were made at much earlier stages of the product lifecycle and the firmware updates were very scarce. Users of their former flagship model DS6000 seem to have suffered a lot more, as this product seems to be in a much less finished state.

Therefore this is a datapoint that shows their service has been spotty for quite a while, but they seem to have released firmware updates for their entry families DS2000 and DS1000Z at a much faster rate. I can't comment as I don't have them, but I suggest you to follow how they manage their new flagship model DS7000 family.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2018, 05:24:13 am »
... Nice that you did not got into heavy rain with the DS4014 you bought. As you write, others have suffered a lot more.

I got really sceptical about their "pro" stuff. Up from, say 2000€ people (including myself) think one more time before they buy.
The DS7000 scope series is even more than that, and users in this price range expect a better quality and also timely fixes if something is wrong.

Lets see what Dave will find out, and I will wait one year minimum to see what the "early adopters" have to say about it.

 

Offline thm_w

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2018, 06:00:51 am »
- the last issue I had (and still have) is the M300 data logger MC3324 combined voltage / current measurement card. It *disrupts* the current of a DUT with every measurement cycle. I reported this as a severe bug.

Weird if you look at how they've drawn the block diagram, it seems like that should not be possible. I also don't see the current shunts on the board itself. Are they using the relays to interrupt the shunt somehow?

 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2018, 06:07:15 am »
... exactly. The schematics looks nice, but what they do is rip open the bridging relay before the connection to the multimeter current input (including the shunt) is established.
To me it looks like a beginners fault when programming the relay timing. Unfortunately, they refuse to work on this bug.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: RIGOL Support fading out ? What is your experience ?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2018, 06:11:27 am »
... exactly. The schematics looks nice, but what they do is rip open the bridging relay before the connection to the multimeter current input (including the shunt) is established.
To me it looks like a beginners fault when programming the relay timing. Unfortunately, they refuse to work on this bug.
And how about returning it?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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