Author Topic: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!  (Read 106794 times)

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Offline LaurentR

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2017, 06:28:32 pm »
Hi Folks,

Hi Rich,
I am a brand new owner of a RTB2004. It is an awesome scope and I am really enjoying it.
However, I find it to be not nearly as quiet as I thought it would be. There is some serious attention to details on the airflow and the rubber mounting on the fan, but I found that, except briefly during the first seconds of boot, the fan is running at full speed (10.7V) all the time. Other users report having a nearly silent unit, so I am wondering if there is something wrong. Over on the RTB2004 thread, at least one other user has the same issue. This is at 21C ambient and no airflow restriction.

1. Is the fan supposed to be thermally controlled or is it supposed to run at full speed all the time?
2. If it is supposed to run at full speed, I may have gotten a noisy fan.
3. If it is thermally controlled, is there a diagnostic for whatever temp sensor is used to decide the fan speed?

As an aside, is the 01.204 firmware available somewhere? I downgraded to 01.203 to see if it fixed the fan issue, but I am now getting an error during boot.

Laurent
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #126 on: May 13, 2017, 01:33:37 am »
this is not oscilloscope question but I will try anyway.The HMF2550 arbitrary function generator,if I have PWM carrier,and I want to module it with sinewave,what is the highest freqency that modulating sinewave can be? Also what is the maximum PWM carrier freqency?
Hi fonograph - unfortunately, I'm not sure.  And I have to admit, I've been swamped lately and haven't had much time to follow up on non-scope questions.  If you need an answer quickly, I'd highly suggest calling the support line for your region.  Go to https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/, make sure to select your country and then go under the service and support section.  There will be contact info there for you and they should be able to get you the answer faster than I can.

-Rich
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #127 on: May 13, 2017, 01:39:58 am »
Hi Folks,

Hi Rich,
I am a brand new owner of a RTB2004. It is an awesome scope and I am really enjoying it.
However, I find it to be not nearly as quiet as I thought it would be. There is some serious attention to details on the airflow and the rubber mounting on the fan, but I found that, except briefly during the first seconds of boot, the fan is running at full speed (10.7V) all the time. Other users report having a nearly silent unit, so I am wondering if there is something wrong. Over on the RTB2004 thread, at least one other user has the same issue. This is at 21C ambient and no airflow restriction.

1. Is the fan supposed to be thermally controlled or is it supposed to run at full speed all the time?
2. If it is supposed to run at full speed, I may have gotten a noisy fan.
3. If it is thermally controlled, is there a diagnostic for whatever temp sensor is used to decide the fan speed?

As an aside, is the 01.204 firmware available somewhere? I downgraded to 01.203 to see if it fixed the fan issue, but I am now getting an error during boot.

Laurent
Hi LaurantR - first, thanks for getting a R&S scope and I'm glad you like it.  Second, I am checking on how the thermal management works.  I believe it will vary based on temp, but I want to make sure.  Having said that, your scope should be very quiet.  It sounds like something is abnormal.  One thing I'd like you to try to see if it solves the fan issue - a hard reset.  To do that:

-Switch off unit
-Switch on unit
-When the units shows the remark about pressing AUTOSET to reset the language: press and hold PRESET until the unit boots to the update FW screen
-Exit that menu

With respect to 1.204 - that was a tweak for manufacturing and didn't change anything functionally between 1.203 and it.  Which is why it hasn't been posted on the web.  I'll see if I can get you a version of it in the meantime, otherwise when the new firmware comes out this month that should solve the issue you are seeing.

-Rich
 

Offline LaurentR

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #128 on: May 13, 2017, 05:40:06 am »
Hi LaurantR - first, thanks for getting a R&S scope and I'm glad you like it.  Second, I am checking on how the thermal management works.  I believe it will vary based on temp, but I want to make sure.  Having said that, your scope should be very quiet.  It sounds like something is abnormal.  One thing I'd like you to try to see if it solves the fan issue - a hard reset.  To do that:

-Switch off unit
-Switch on unit
-When the units shows the remark about pressing AUTOSET to reset the language: press and hold PRESET until the unit boots to the update FW screen
-Exit that menu

With respect to 1.204 - that was a tweak for manufacturing and didn't change anything functionally between 1.203 and it.  Which is why it hasn't been posted on the web.  I'll see if I can get you a version of it in the meantime, otherwise when the new firmware comes out this month that should solve the issue you are seeing.

-Rich

The reset procedure did what it was supposed to do, but that didn't change anything to the fan noise/speed issue.
Please let me know if the fan is indeed supposed to be thermally controlled and if there is any diagnostic steps I can take (or seek direct support with R&S or the reseller).
 

Online Hydron

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #129 on: May 13, 2017, 09:44:35 am »
Hi Rich,

I have the exact same problem with the fan noise, and the reset procedure didn't fix mine either. In the RTB2k thread it seems that some have very little noise (difficult to tell that unit is on) while others have a lot (annoyingly loud), and I'm unfortunately in the latter camp. I'll wait and see what the response is - hopefully it's easily resolvable and I don't need to get my unit replaced (fan cycles through speeds on bootup, including the almost-inaudible one, then goes full blast during operation, so it's pretty clearly being set to the wrong speed, but that speed control does work).
 

Offline psient

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #130 on: May 13, 2017, 11:32:05 am »
Hello all:

Please I ask you Rich, for my edification, why should I buy a R&S as a  first scope? I am just beginning my work shop.  I can't really understand them . . . yet . . . but Rigol is arguing to spend with them. I am new to electronics, old to the U.S. and have a lot of experience in being educated.

I just found this thread and though my story may not interest all the engineers here I respect and enjoy their posting intelligent back and forths. As to this post, I hope sensibilities extend back to their pre-teens when they started as I'm the geriatric version.

New here at over 65 I'm a non entitled-ist (I'm U.S. but not -not entitled in the vein gowdy, ryan, mr. turtle want to force). I'd like to thank you for your generous dedication in responding with such a genuine and authentic demeanor.

Dave Jones gets paid for eevblogging in part so I can ask because of him, thanks to him as well, the duck's guts!

I want to grow but am retired and, while ryan is trying to destroy my ilk, he has not succeeded yet. I still get my laborers small stipend to survive.  Mind you I went from manual labor with 0 college to PhD in 7 years @ 44 years old (Uni California, not a paper mill but real science). Please help me understand entry to eevblog engineering with only an intense education in statistics and ethics. Sorry for the  :bullshit: . . . not really :popcorn:
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #131 on: May 13, 2017, 11:55:43 am »
Hello all:

Please I ask you Rich, for my edification, why should I buy a R&S as a  first scope? I am just beginning my work shop.  I can't really understand them . . . yet . . . but Rigol is arguing to spend with them. I am new to electronics, old to the U.S. and have a lot of experience in being educated.

Unless money is no object and you really like nice shiny things with lots of bells & whistles you probably shouldn't.
As a beginner you'd be paying for features and performance you're unlikely to need for quite a while.
 
Something like The Rigol 1054Z, the new Siglent, or the Keysight DSOX1000 would do all you're likely to need for quite a while, and as & when you find them limiting,  look to upgrade.

The only reason not to buy the R&S as a first scope is money. It will do everything you want to and more, and won't be any harder to use than a lower-end unit, so if the price is not an issue, fine.

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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #132 on: May 13, 2017, 01:36:34 pm »
Hello all:

Please I ask you Rich, for my edification, why should I buy a R&S as a  first scope? I am just beginning my work shop.  I can't really understand them . . . yet . . . but Rigol is arguing to spend with them. I am new to electronics, old to the U.S. and have a lot of experience in being educated.

Unless money is no object and you really like nice shiny things with lots of bells & whistles you probably shouldn't.
As a beginner you'd be paying for features and performance you're unlikely to need for quite a while.
 
Something like The Rigol 1054Z, the new Siglent, or the Keysight DSOX1000 would do all you're likely to need for quite a while, and as & when you find them limiting,  look to upgrade.

The only reason not to buy the R&S as a first scope is money. It will do everything you want to and more, and won't be any harder to use than a lower-end unit, so if the price is not an issue, fine.
Can't disagree.  :-+

-Rich
 

Offline LaurentR

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2017, 04:34:03 pm »

Well, temp control may really be broken. I got this error this morning. Hasn't reappeared since. 19C ambient.

Corrected: Now happens every time I boot. UI is very slow / unresponsive. Maybe thermal throttling?
At this point, I have sent an email to R&S support.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 03:11:32 am by LaurentR »
 

Offline Octane

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #134 on: May 15, 2017, 09:07:37 pm »
Hey Rich,

Just an idea/suggestion. Would it be possible to use one of the channels as an intensity input (also sometimes called z-input). This would be especially useful if one could use x-y mode (ch1 &ch2) and then use channel 3 as an intensity input.
As I said just a thought. Could be a nice feature.

BR,
Michael

P.S.: Any update on a new firmware?
W4MFT
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2017, 02:51:32 pm »
Hey Rich,

Just an idea/suggestion. Would it be possible to use one of the channels as an intensity input (also sometimes called z-input). This would be especially useful if one could use x-y mode (ch1 &ch2) and then use channel 3 as an intensity input.
As I said just a thought. Could be a nice feature.

BR,
Michael

P.S.: Any update on a new firmware?
Hi Michael - I know exactly what you are looking for and it is a good suggestion.  I'll run it by the team.  With respect to the firmware, still on track for this month.  I'll let everyone know once it hits.

-Rich
 
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Offline phs

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2017, 05:55:23 pm »
Hi Rich,

Thanks for your presence here and for all of your time and efforts – it provides reassurance that R&S is serious about addressing customer needs.  Sorry for the length of this post, but I really hope it helps R&S to improve a product with great potential.  The RTB is so close to being a superior tool that can be relied upon for the vast majority of projects here, but at this time is still missing some critical functionality that is causing it to just miss the mark.

Recently received the first RTB2004 (with all options) and there’s another one on order.  The core premise of this scope’s design, and its performance are quite excellent.  Effective, innovative GUI platform and solid, clean, hardware design.  The touch screen works well and user interface features like the Track Grid and Grid Annotation options are truly useful.  Also, the basics of protocol decoding seem to work well, which is a commonly used function here, and definitely a nice speed improvement over the Rigols it will be attempting to replace.  And, the glossy screen isn’t bothersome – it’s crisp, bright, and whatever lag there may isn’t that noticeable in operation.  One of the biggest selling points was the remote access capabilities via Ethernet.  Not relying on some bloated Windows app is really where things should be going, so that any OS can fully control the instrument, and the user isn’t forced to use a proprietary OS from a hostile company.

Unfortunately, there seem to be several significant feature omissions on the RTB at this point, that mean it won’t be able to fully replace even a DS1074z Rigol.  Hopefully these missing features are just not understood here, there are workarounds for them, or R&S is planning on adding them.  It would be a shame for folks to expect the RTB to fully replace low-end Rigols (or similar) only to discover that relatively standard features they were used to using simply don’t exist in the RTB series.  Also, it might be wise for R&S to continue to flesh out the feature set of the current RTB series, rather than just hold out on them for a higher-end model that will be yet again many more times expensive than the Rigols, Siglents, etc.

So, it seems R&S are working on a number of bugs folks have already pointed out, but  it’s not clear the following omissions have been mentioned yet – 3 of which are the biggest show-stoppers:

1)  Vertically zooming in on a waveform with a DC offset
2)  Lack of nth Edge triggering
3)  UART decode speed limitation of 3 Mbps

There are quite a few other missing features on the RTB that the Rigols have, that have been frequently useful in the past, and at the least are disappointing omissions on a machine of this caliber, but aren’t quite as critical for typical projects, like other missing trigger types, limited math functions, dedicated knobs for easy, precise scrolling of large values, and other items most folks have likely come to expect in this class of scope.

So, vertical zooming – hopefully this is simply a lack of understanding of how the RTB works at my end, rather than an omission.  Rigol has a feature called Vertical Expansion: Center or Ground.  When set to Center, this setting allows the user to place a waveform with a DC offset in the center of the screen, and then zoom in as far as possible without the waveform disappearing off the top (or bottom for negative DC offset) each time the vertical zoom knob is turned.  This function is turned on at all times here, as it saves a ton of time when the user desires to zoom in on a waveform with a DC component – without using AC input coupling -- in order to leverage the maximum possible resolution of the scope.  This is used a lot to check the quality of power rails, as one example.  A simple function, but in addition to saving a lot of time, it makes the instrument much less frustrating to use.  On an RTB, try quickly zooming all the way in on a signal with a 5V DC offset (without using AC coupling) – you’ll begin to hate small, slippery, detented knobs, like the vertical position knob – especially if this is a function you have to perform a lot. 

The second item that makes ditching the Rigols impossible is the limited trigger selection on the RTB.  Most commonly used here are Edge, Pulse, Nth Edge, Video, and the various protocol triggers.  There have been times when Runt, Windows, Pattern, and others are used, but less frequently.  Of course hold-off is used frequently with Edge, and sometimes instead of a protocol trigger for non-clocked signals not conforming to normal UART specs.

Unfortunately, along with other trigger functions, the RTB is missing Nth Edge, Runt, Windows, and there is no hold-off in the protocol triggers that I could find.  Nth Edge is used frequently here when working with protocol analysis.  These are disappointing omissions, and demonstrate at least one reason the Rigol products have done so well.  They cover their customers with a very useful selection of utilitarian functions, and they actually work properly (for the most part).

The third biggest issue is the limitation of 3Mbps for UART decoding.  In this day and age 3Mbps is quite limiting.  Though it hasn’t been fully tested here, the Rigol DS20xx has settings up to 20Mbps.  To be clear, protocol decoding is less painful on the RTB than on the Rigols, but the speed limitations mean the RTB can’t be used for a lot of projects, again forcing a fall back to the Rigol.

If at the very least, along with the issues other folks have brought up, the Vertical Expansion, nth Edge trigger, and UART decode speed were addressed, I expect the Rigols would no longer be needed for most stuff (here, anyway), and the benefits of the RTB could be fully enjoyed.  If it’s not likely that at least these three items will change in the near future, then it will be necessary to cancel the order for the second RTB, and to look for a more comprehensive scope that isn’t missing so many of the useful functions provided in the Rigol products.  Utility wins over a beautiful UI most days of the week.  It would be a shame for a wonderful instrument like the RTB to remain significantly behind the Rigol’s feature set when it’s so close to being superior overall.

Hopefully this all won’t be taken the wrong way – this scope platform has great potential, and I absolutely love using it!  It’s just that right now it is lacking a number of functions we happen to depend on, that much cheaper instruments currently offer.  However, it seems these might be relatively easy to fix, and I really hope R&S steps up and gives this beauty the brains it deserves!

Thanks again for your time Rich!

Current list of issues/desired improvements (these 3, at least, are major issues/limitations):

- Vertical Expansion Center/Ground (increasing vertical amplification expands with waveform in the center of the screen  (don’t have to use AC input coupling[can keep track of DC offset, etc., while zooming in on the waveform])

- UART – Need speed up to 10Mbps, at least

- More trigger types – at least Nth Edge, Runt and Windows

At least some of the following, I’d imagine, should be relatively easy to address and will only make your customers happier:

- Only 4 measurements at one time.

- Graph mode to show measurement history, as on the Rigol DS2000 – incredibly useful, and would look awesome on the RTB screen!

- Give us options for larger knobs (rubber-coated?) for Vertical/Horizontal Position and Analysis – scrolling with knobs on this scope should be fun – it can actually be tedious and physically painful

- Analysis knob – acceleration needs improvement. EX: setting holdoff time – ouch!

- Idle time setting – cant see waveform while setting

- Settings windows obscure waveforms

- Cursor Delta t and 1/Delta t hidden by menus when setting up cursors

- More comprehensive mouse/Keyboard support – none of the wireless Logitechs seem to work here (M570, M185, M310, K270, K520)

- Need more math types – at least differential and integral

- AWG quite limited, esp. when comparing it’s price with something like the Siglent 2042x

- More comprehensive data-logging options

- Web UI – double-click on screen to get full-screen (controls disappear) – double-click to get back.

- Allow users to create "apps"

- User-selectable waveform colors

- User-selectable grid colors

- Cursor – snap mode (snap to edges as moved)

- More flexibility with where the screen scrolls (Trigger, user, Center, Right, Left)

- FFT – Markers – Search for next peak/low

- FFT – Waterfall (would be helpful, but not critical)

Thanks,
-- phs

edit: Remove Pulse triggering, clarification
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 05:42:29 am by phs »
 
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Offline piranha32

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2017, 01:06:29 am »
phs,

great list. I would like to add one thing that really annoys me since the day I took my scope out of the box: trigger on the sweep of the signal generator. It's as much of a substitute for a real spectrum analyzer as an FFT, so marketing people at R&S don't need to worry that it will eat part of their SA market, but would be very helpful when working with RF circuits.

Offline Joel_l

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2017, 02:11:34 am »
I like this list, I didn't notice that Nth edge was missing, I think I saw Nth single and thought that was it. Haven't tried it but seems it could get what you want, the Nth waveform would be the one of interest.

Not sure why Pulse is different than the Width trigger.

I sure hope R&S is looking at these request. Especially considering the class of scope they want this to be.
 

Offline LaurentR

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2017, 04:11:46 am »
I like this list, I didn't notice that Nth edge was missing, I think I saw Nth single and thought that was it. Haven't tried it but seems it could get what you want, the Nth waveform would be the one of interest.

Not sure why Pulse is different than the Width trigger.

I sure hope R&S is looking at these request. Especially considering the class of scope they want this to be.

I sincerely hope they can change their plans, but between the facts that:
* They don't see the like of Rigol as competitors (where Rigol's 1000Z has advanced triggering and math)
* The oscilloscope selection guide clearly shows "basic triggers" and "elementary math" as class defining specs
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Scope_FamilyFlyer_e_3607_0946_32_V0601.pdf

Their product folks clearly think this is how it should be.

This is just saying we should keep the pressure on and not let go. I don't think these are class defining and they shouldn't be crippled just for market segmentation. I doubt too many people on this board will take the plunge and spend $10k on the next scope up just to get advanced triggering or math. What they will do is buy a Rigol, if they don't have one already.

All this does is make people cross-shop for a Rigol or delay their purchase of a R&S scope until a time where this is offered by one of the tier 1 manufacturer in that range; neither of which is good for business. I think the pick up of more advanced triggering and math by tier 1 manufacturers is imminent as they start feeling actual heat from the Rigols and lack of differentiation with each other.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 04:19:36 am by LaurentR »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2017, 08:55:49 am »
phs,

great list. I would like to add one thing that really annoys me since the day I took my scope out of the box: trigger on the sweep of the signal generator.
This is something that was highlighted internally pretty early on, so hopefully will be addressed soon.
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Offline Pinkus

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2017, 10:43:28 am »
....Their product folks clearly think this is how it should be.

This is just saying we should keep the pressure on and not let go. I don't think these are class defining and they shouldn't be crippled just for market segmentation. I doubt too many people on this board will take the plunge and spend $10k on the next scope up just to get advanced triggering or math. What they will do is buy a Rigol, if they don't have one already.
+1
It is really astonishing: they do have a very competitive product in their market segment .... and then they are crippling it and leaving the segment. Really: without adv. math, more advanced triggers and duplex serial protocol analysis they are lacking features which are standard today even in the cheapest $500 hobby class. Missing these features are positioning the RTB2004 even below these $500 China devices.

Yes, 10" and touch are nice to have. Also 10bit is nice to have. But important are the trigger & measurement functions and features inside the device!

If you think this ought to be: sorry R&S then the RTB2004 will not be a device for me.
I am fully honest: I am waiting for the first firmware revision to check if they are willing to improve and to add the missing features. If so I will buy one right away. Promised! If not: good bye R&S.

I want a RTB2004 with duplex serial decoders, more trigger options, adv. measurements because I need this stuff. Your RTE1000 or RTM2000 and HMO1002/1202 are totally different segments and are not of interest (or way too expensive).
Would I choose and/or wait for (a more expensive) pro-version with these features?
No! Then the MSOX3024T with Appbundle is the gold standard and even today not more expensive than the RTB2004 with all options. And I even would get a 30% discount from Keysight by just dropping an old scope there.

I can absolutely understand that companies do need market segments where they address their products too.
It is fine for me if they segment on GS/s or bandwidth. Also memory and auto probe detection, zone trigger and other stuff.
But crippling features like measurement, trigger and UART / SPI decode in a way they are even worse than what you get everywhere else for free or for a moderate premium ...... sorry R&S. This is dumb and this only offend potential customers.
As I said: I am waiting for the next firmware (or at least a promise about what other features will follow in later releases). And I know 2 other people who sit an wait and who will then decide if the RTB2004 will be their next scope. Well, if not, for me it will not be a R&S scope but a Keysight.

R&S: with the RTB2004 you have a nice device with a good UI and good basics which can gain the market share of R&S a lot ... if it would be competitive. But it is not competitive because you crippled it. The result: on Ebay they are two brand new unused RTB2004 with all options and full warranty (worth >7000 Euro). One is available for 3100 Euro ..... and nobody purchases it! Guess why?

I do not know if this plea will find open ears. Maybe the product manager is not able to change the marketing decision of only implementing basic features. Maybe the RTB2004 is not important for R&S so they just do not care but care more for their other scopes (which are not interesting for me). Well, the next weeks will show if Rohde and Schwarz act smart or .....

« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 11:57:59 am by Pinkus »
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2017, 11:38:20 am »
I'm currently looking for a second scope and agree with the previous posters. The RTB can't even fully replace my r&s/hameg hmo.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2017, 01:35:31 pm »
Hi Everyone - thanks for the notes and sorry for my slow reply.  Wasn't on here much yesterday. 

First - phs - thank you for the very detailed and thorough list of suggestions/fixes. 

Second - thanks to everyone else for adding additional weight behind the proposals. 

In the end, I'm not the person who defines what capabilities will be added/not added.  BUT, I can absolutely pass this on and help advocate for new capabilities, and I do every time I hear the requests (even if they are repeat - in fact, especially if they are repeat, because that often means there is a strong need).  So while I can't promise these capabilities will come tomorrow or next year or ever, we definitely still appreciate the feedback.

On a related note - I checked on the updated firmware.  It has moved slightly (not exactly sure why), but we should have an updated version in the not too distant future.  Again, I'll update everyone as soon as it is available.

-Rich
 

Offline phs

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2017, 02:23:08 pm »
piranha32,

Thanks. I agree - don't know if the hardware supports it, but trigger from AWG would be a great feature.

Joel_l,

Yeah, you're right - I didn't edit my list very well.  Pulse and Width are basically the same.  I think Nx Single determines how many waveforms are captured at a time, whereas Nth Edge Trigger triggers on a specific edge of a waveform, after a specified high/low time.  I use Nth Edge a lot.

LaurentR,

You make good points.  It would be a mistake for R&S to not flesh out the feature set of this instrument a bit more.  If they can at least address the main 3 issues I listed, I could do most of what I need.  Others likely have different needs.  As it is now, I'll be reaching for another (much cheaper) scope frequently, which seems rather silly.  I'd like to give them a chance though, and we'll see...

I agree with points Pinkus and  lem_ix make as well. 

Rich -- thanks for your response.  I realize you are doing this as a volunteer effort and really appreciate your willingness to reach out to your customers.  I hope your product managers are able to take these strong hints from folks who were willing to put money behind R&S as they attempt to enter this segment. 

It was risky to try a new product this early on, esp. when the user manual was clearly not mentioning a number of features we count on, but I let the introductory offer and the R&S name push me over the edge.  Also, there wasn't a lot of time to make a decision, and though mikeselectricstuff has put up some excellent videos covering specific use cases, there was no review available anywhere (and still isn't) that thoroughly covered the feature set in comparison to other scopes which folks have been using for years now.

The bottom line, is that we need to get work done now -- it was a long wait to get this thing.  It would be helpful to know what the R&S plans are as soon as possible, as we may have more decisions to make.

Thanks again,
-- phs
 

Offline Joel_l

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #145 on: May 31, 2017, 07:42:45 pm »
I'm not sure, but my thought is that Nth single captures however many single shots. So lets say you wanted to trigger on the 5th edge of something, the 5th capture of 5 singles would be what you want and the first 4 are not of interest ( maybe ). At least that's what I'm thinking is the way Nth single works. I only think it's N separate captures because it seemed to be a feature of expanded memory.

piranha32,

  I think Nx Single determines how many waveforms are captured at a time, whereas Nth Edge Trigger triggers on a specific edge of a waveform, after a specified high/low time.  I use Nth Edge a lot.


 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #146 on: May 31, 2017, 08:17:20 pm »
I'm not sure, but my thought is that Nth single captures however many single shots. So lets say you wanted to trigger on the 5th edge of something, the 5th capture of 5 singles would be what you want and the first 4 are not of interest ( maybe ). At least that's what I'm thinking is the way Nth single works. I only think it's N separate captures because it seemed to be a feature of expanded memory.

piranha32,

  I think Nx Single determines how many waveforms are captured at a time, whereas Nth Edge Trigger triggers on a specific edge of a waveform, after a specified high/low time.  I use Nth Edge a lot.


Nx single is a completely different thing. It can't replace Nth edge trigger as the edges could occur in quick succession, far quicker than a complete single acquisition.
 
The reason for Nx single is the way they do segmented functionality.

I'm only familiar with how Keysight do it, which is by specifying a number of segments, acquiring each segment, and stopping when all are done. A limitation of this is you might want to see the last <n> segments before manually stopping, and you can't do this.

Instead R&S call it "History" mode, which simply gives you access to the last <n> triggers, where <n> depends on the selected memory size. What this alone doesn't let you do is acquire just the first <n> segments.
Hence the Nx single allows you to acquire the first <n> segments by pressing SINGLE, or the last <n> by pressing RUN/STOP
This is more flexible than Keysight, but not exactly obvious and they are well aware of this - I only figured it out as I'd previously noticed Nx single and not realised why it was there until I investigated history mode.
I spent a while discussing with Joel from R&S when they came to see me a while ago.  My suggestion was to add a text prompt to the History mode screen to point out the Nx single functionality

I definitely agree that Nth edge trigger is an unacceptable omission for a scope in this class.
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #147 on: May 31, 2017, 08:50:01 pm »
Hi Rich,

Not sure if you can help me out here or not but I have been advised that I should at least ask you so here goes.

I have just aquired a Hameg HM 408-1A storage scope which has a few problems to sort out electronically, but they can wait until I see if I can fix other more important issues with the mechanics, no point in resolving the electronics if I can't control the thing is there?

Can you advise me as to where I might be able to source the nylon flexible couplings that sit between the Intensity, Focus, Readout Focus and the Volts / Division controls and the knobs? I also could do with but not essential, are the grey key caps for the Y Pos I and Y Position II, just the push in caps?

There is a thread open regarding this restoration here  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hameg-408-1a/ which has a photo of the flexible couplings in question.

I'll understand if you can't help, but like I said, you was recommended to me as your company took over Hameg.
I'll see what I can find out!

-Rich

Rich don't worry, I have worked around these couplings now with a bodge but hey it works well, I also purchased some second market couplings from Aliexpress which work well in areas where I had sufficient room to use them as they are approx double the originals in size. Thanks for your efforts so far.
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Offline technogeeky

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #148 on: May 31, 2017, 10:50:04 pm »
Simple question (inspired discussion in the Rigol bugs thread):

Does R&S, at any point, ever discuss the the open-sourcing (or otherwise free) release of source code or firmware at any point during the entire history of a product (from design through to obsolescence)? Why, or why not?

If it easier to provide an answer by restricting the domain to oscilloscopes, then please do.

It occurred to me that, while we all discuss and speculate reasons which we believe obviate the need to keep software closed and locked up, I wondered if the guys making test gear actually have the discussion internally or not. If not, why not? Surely there are upsides and downsides.

I suspect companies as large as R&S, Keysight, Tek, etc. also have educational programs and educational outreach. Perhaps that is a group of people internally could ask the original question from a different viewpoint: is there a point in a product lifecycle that the educational benefit of a source code release outweighs the need for competitive advantage for the techniques used within?

I don't mean to antagonize or anything, either: I genuinely thought that maybe the question (what do we lose and gain by open sourcing for this product, at this time?) isn't even being raised at any point in the lifetime of something like an oscilloscope.

 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #149 on: May 31, 2017, 11:55:07 pm »
Please I ask you Rich, for my edification, why should I buy a R&S as a  first scope? I am just beginning my work shop.  I can't really understand them . . . yet . . . but Rigol is arguing to spend with them. I am new to electronics, old to the U.S. and have a lot of experience in being educated.
As someone who owns both a Rigol and an R&S scope I can tell you from my experience. They will both do the job. But to me personally the biggest advantage of an R&S scope is the stuff that's not described in the specs (this also applies to Keysight). It's the UI.

It's basically the amalgamation of small things that really make a huge difference when you're using the instrument for long periods of time. Rigol's rotary encoders for instance don't implement acceleration. On an R&S scope if you want to move a cursor or a trace or a trigger to the opposite side of the signal, you can do it in just a turn by turning them quickly, acceleration kicks in which lets you travel big distances. On Rigol it's always at the same speed no matter how fast you turn the knob. The end result is, I feel like I am always turning knobs on my Rigol scope, and I am constantly fighting the UI.

Instead I should be concentrating on a circuit or the problem I am troubleshooting, but no I need to turn this knob 20 times..

That's basically it for me. There is a gulf of difference in the polish and implementation of the interface. Also all features are well thought out and well implemented. Rigol might even have more features than the R&S scope but some are half implemented and others don't even work right. But really for me at least, it all comes down to the well thought out interface.

Rigol offers great value in their scopes, I am certainly not complaining, but an R&S scope is a quality tool.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:57:41 pm by Muxr »
 
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