Author Topic: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!  (Read 44535 times)

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Offline TimNJ

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2018, 01:55:08 am »
*I'm leaving this comment for Rich and the folks at R&S. I do not want to take over this thread, so please don't respond unless you think you really need to.*

Hi Rich,

This is not a comment about a specific product, but rather a general observation based on my observations/experiences. In fact, this is more of a comment directed at the old-school oscilloscope players (R&S, Tek, Keysight). I won't be offended if you don't respond!

First, I love the industrial design of R&S scopes. Few competitors make a scope as beautiful as an R&S. Equally as good is the design of the software interface. From the colors, to the controls, to the layout, it is obvious that the design was taken seriously. We have an R&S HMS-X spectrum analyzer at work, and it is truly a joy to use. We bought that SA because it had a special analysis option we needed. (The company I work for designs and manufactures switch-mode power supplies.)

The "problem" I see with R&S scopes (from the perspective of a company purchasing equipment) is that R&S scopes are a poor value on paper. For instance, when I was hired, the company got me a Siglent SDS-2104X. Most recently, we bought a Rigol DS-1104Z for a new engineer. We didn't even think to consider an R&S product (or Tektronix or Keysight for that matter).

Take the R&S RTC1000, for instance. It is a beautiful scope with good implementation of many features. But, it's way more expensive than competitor products with similar data sheet specs. It's incredibly hard for a company to justify that purchase. The company I work for used to be a loyal Tektronix company, but as soon as the cheap Chinese scopes came around, they immediately threw away that allegiance and sprung for the inexpensive offerings.

I referenced this idea in another thread I started..but (in my experience) it's really hard to sell people (and management) on non-quantifiable advantages like a good user interface.

RTC1000 is a good try at competing in the "general-purpose" scope market but I just don't see how R&S can expect to sell many of them. I think some of the other new R&S scopes are truly quite innovative and easier for people to justify the cost. But at the same time, when it's other people's money being spent, sometimes the "it's easier to use" factor is a hard sell.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 01:59:46 am by TimNJ »
 

Offline LaurentR

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2018, 03:30:21 am »
Rich, I found a new reference to option R&S RTB-K18 "spectrum analysis". Are new options coming  ;D?

Interesting catch. It showed up in the v05 of the manual (Jan 18) and is still there in the new v06. It is not mentioned anywhere else. Since it is only in the remote control commands section and doesn't have an actual user section, I can only assume it's a copy/paste mistake from the RTA/RTM manuals

That option is officially available in most R&S scopes, old and new, except for the RTB2000, as shown here:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/sw_rtx-k18-productstartpage_63493-504512.html

 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2018, 03:52:07 am »
*I'm leaving this comment for Rich and the folks at R&S. I do not want to take over this thread, so please don't respond unless you think you really need to.*

Hi Rich,

This is not a comment about a specific product, but rather a general observation based on my observations/experiences. In fact, this is more of a comment directed at the old-school oscilloscope players (R&S, Tek, Keysight). I won't be offended if you don't respond!

First, I love the industrial design of R&S scopes. Few competitors make a scope as beautiful as an R&S. Equally as good is the design of the software interface. From the colors, to the controls, to the layout, it is obvious that the design was taken seriously. We have an R&S HMS-X spectrum analyzer at work, and it is truly a joy to use. We bought that SA because it had a special analysis option we needed. (The company I work for designs and manufactures switch-mode power supplies.)

The "problem" I see with R&S scopes (from the perspective of a company purchasing equipment) is that R&S scopes are a poor value on paper. For instance, when I was hired, the company got me a Siglent SDS-2104X. Most recently, we bought a Rigol DS-1104Z for a new engineer. We didn't even think to consider an R&S product (or Tektronix or Keysight for that matter).

Take the R&S RTC1000, for instance. It is a beautiful scope with good implementation of many features. But, it's way more expensive than competitor products with similar data sheet specs. It's incredibly hard for a company to justify that purchase. The company I work for used to be a loyal Tektronix company, but as soon as the cheap Chinese scopes came around, they immediately threw away that allegiance and sprung for the inexpensive offerings.

I referenced this idea in another thread I started..but (in my experience) it's really hard to sell people (and management) on non-quantifiable advantages like a good user interface.

RTC1000 is a good try at competing in the "general-purpose" scope market but I just don't see how R&S can expect to sell many of them. I think some of the other new R&S scopes are truly quite innovative and easier for people to justify the cost. But at the same time, when it's other people's money being spent, sometimes the "it's easier to use" factor is a hard sell.
Hi TimNJ - thanks for the note.  I'm happy to respond with my own personal thoughts (not representing R&S).  And rest assured, TONS of R&S employees from R&D to marketing to sales read this blog, so your comments will be well heard.

First, thanks for the nice comments on our scopes.  As you can imagine they are the pride and joy of a lot of people at R&S, just like any project is for an engineer at any company.  One thing that I think is pretty cool about R&S versus some other companies is our designers get a LOT of leeway when working on their projects.  We're still very much an engineering-first culture, not driven by "bean counters".

Second - I think you are right, there are a lot of great scopes available today, whether it be from the old-school players or more recent entries.  I think every company will have different business plans - some will try to be cost leaders, others will take a differentiation strategy.  For us, I see us more in the differentiation path - the cool thing about this is it allows us to bring new and innovative capabilities to the market - things like 10-bit ADCs in (relatively) low cost scopes.  And what we'll see over time is there are some "fast followers" who will likely copy those innovations and bring them to market at much lower costs.  A win-win for consumers.  And still positive for us because we sell a lot of scopes during that time where we have the only option on the market (sort of why you all bought the HMS-X - it had something you needed and could only get from us).  The other benefit is if every player were a "cost leader" player, it would be great for a year or two - prices would be super cheap!  But innovation would dry up.  In the long run, IMHO it's a positive for a market to have both. 

-Rich
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2018, 05:13:17 am »
Rich, I found a new reference to option R&S RTB-K18 "spectrum analysis". Are new options coming  ;D?

Interesting catch. It showed up in the v05 of the manual (Jan 18) and is still there in the new v06. It is not mentioned anywhere else. Since it is only in the remote control commands section and doesn't have an actual user section, I can only assume it's a copy/paste mistake from the RTA/RTM manuals

That option is officially available in most R&S scopes, old and new, except for the RTB2000, as shown here:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/sw_rtx-k18-productstartpage_63493-504512.html

The option is listed as RTB K-18 - The other scopes have all their own numbers, eg RTM K-18 ...
I think it would make a lot of sense for them to sell more features down the road. The appstore way ...
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #229 on: June 14, 2018, 07:53:37 pm »
Some more ideas:

1. Ability to measure the phase between the signal generator output and the analog inputs
2. Regarding the documentation, which is excellent otherwise - A changelog listing relevant changes in the firmware

And a question:
I'm trying to detect clipping and I'm reading the status register via: "STATus:QUEStionable:ADCState:CONDition?"
Unfortunately this returns always 0 indicating no clipping while the scope's clipping indication is on on all channels?

Works, just a stupid typo.

Thank you so much!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:41:53 am by sixtimesseven »
 

Offline Martin.M

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #230 on: June 15, 2018, 04:46:08 am »
the variable C in the LARU have a stamp GEALTERT means aged. Sept. 31, 1962
Now that is real aged ... and still exactly. 

 :)

 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #231 on: June 16, 2018, 02:48:23 am »
Just found something odd on RTM3000 - capturing a reference waveform in spectrum mode doesn't behave as expected - it has an offset from the live waveform
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #232 on: June 16, 2018, 04:49:43 am »
Thanks Mike - I'll submit for fix.

-Rich
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #233 on: June 20, 2018, 03:43:02 am »
Another missing feature would be the ability to save Bus Table and decoded data via the browser based "save" ;D


 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #234 on: June 22, 2018, 03:15:56 am »
Hey Rich

I don't know if it is a bug or if I'm just too dense.
I'm trying to decode a 12bit wide clocked parallel bus (Data: D0-D11, Clock: D12). And I have two issues:

1. The Protocol decoder tries to decode and displays packages even while the clock is not changing
2. The Bus Table doesn't seem to have a lot in it. Can't I have one 12bit value per package?

UPDATE:
I played around with the threshold level and hysteresis but no luck. Then I did a factory reset and problem number one has now disappeared(?)
In Parallel mode I get a nice bus table and the data looks similar to what I'm hoping to get, but obviously I do not get a frame when the data isn't changing. In P. Clocked decode I get a huge string of numbers without any separation in the bus table. I could pick that apart with a script but it is kind of annoying and I would really like to have a way around that.

Thank you so much


Edit: Added channel description, update, some gramar  |O





« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 05:39:47 am by sixtimesseven »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #235 on: June 22, 2018, 03:22:38 am »
Just found something odd on RTM3000 - capturing a reference waveform in spectrum mode doesn't behave as expected - it has an offset from the live waveform
This appears to only be an issue when the reference position is set to other than "middle"
 
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Offline Detzi

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #236 on: July 04, 2018, 02:35:54 am »
This seems obvious and has to be asked already. But the "Search" does not show a result, so i'll ask anyway.

I today unpacked my RTB 2004 and it seems as if there are no low impeadance ground leads included in the "RT-ZP03" Probe package. I checked the "included in delivery" list and there is nothing listed beside some silly plugs. That sure is a bad joke, is it? How am i supposed measure anything else than dc with that 10cm inductance?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 05:54:23 am by Detzi »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #237 on: July 04, 2018, 03:29:22 am »
This seems obvious and has to be asked already. But the "Search" does not show a result, so i'll ask anyway.

I today unpacked my RTB 2004 and it seems as if there are no low impeadance ground leads included in the "RT-ZP03" Probe package. I checked the "included in delivery" list and there is nothing listed beside some silly plugs. That shure is a bad joke, is it? How am i supposed measure anything else than dc with that 10cm inductance?

I bought some probe accessory kits to remedy that. It does feel like a huge miss but I'm guessing the probe oem just doesn't have a package like that for those probes.
 

Offline Detzi

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #238 on: July 04, 2018, 03:51:50 am »
I bought some probe accessory kits to remedy that. It does feel like a huge miss but I'm guessing the probe oem just doesn't have a package like that for those probes.

So you're saying you payed 6k for a scope and willingly accepted to have to buy an accessory kit to be able to make basic measurements?  :wtf: That is ridiculous! This ticks me really off, i can't be the only one who finds this absolutely crazy.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #239 on: July 04, 2018, 04:12:19 am »
I bought some probe accessory kits to remedy that. It does feel like a huge miss but I'm guessing the probe oem just doesn't have a package like that for those probes.

So you're saying you payed 6k for a scope and willingly accepted to have to buy an accessory kit to be able to make basic measurements?  :wtf: That is ridiculous! This ticks me really off, i can't be the only one who finds this absolutely crazy.

Well I got a launch unit so I didn't pay that price but it was never listed as having them included. So even though a 1054z comes with them I knew I'd have to source my own. They should have been included though, I agree.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #240 on: July 04, 2018, 04:39:39 am »
I today unpacked my RTB 2004 and it seems as if there are no low impeadance ground leads included in the "RT-ZP03" Probe package. I checked the "included in delivery" list and there is nothing listed beside some silly plugs. That shure is a bad joke, is it? How am i supposed measure anything else than dc with that 10cm inductance?

To be honest, I can’t even recall if mine came with some. Just do what many do and spend 30 seconds to make one using $0.05 of wire.  I’ve never been able to keep track of those things anyways.  FFS it’s just a small coil of wire. ::).
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #241 on: July 04, 2018, 04:46:35 am »
I agree. I usually don't even bother looking for the spring clip. Winding the ground wire over the probe already gives a large reduction in excess noise.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Fred27

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #242 on: July 04, 2018, 04:57:49 am »
I today unpacked my RTB 2004 and it seems as if there are no low impeadance ground leads included in the "RT-ZP03" Probe package. I checked the "included in delivery" list and there is nothing listed beside some silly plugs. That shure is a bad joke, is it? How am i supposed measure anything else than dc with that 10cm inductance?
The RT-ZP10 probes that come with the RTM3004 definitely have them.
 

Offline Detzi

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #243 on: July 04, 2018, 05:03:16 am »
I agree. I usually don't even bother looking for the spring clip. Winding the ground wire over the probe already gives a large reduction in excess noise.
I today unpacked my RTB 2004 and it seems as if there are no low impeadance ground leads included in the "RT-ZP03" Probe package. I checked the "included in delivery" list and there is nothing listed beside some silly plugs. That shure is a bad joke, is it? How am i supposed measure anything else than dc with that 10cm inductance?

To be honest, I can’t even recall if mine came with some. Just do what many do and spend 30 seconds to make one using $0.05 of wire.  I’ve never been able to keep track of those things anyways.  FFS it’s just a small coil of wire. ::).

You both simply don't get the point here. I sure am able to botch it up myself but that shouldn't be necessary. This is a simple sub cent part that makes my life a lot easier. There is no sane reason to not include it.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #244 on: July 04, 2018, 05:06:01 am »
I today unpacked my RTB 2004 and it seems as if there are no low impeadance ground leads included in the "RT-ZP03" Probe package. I checked the "included in delivery" list and there is nothing listed beside some silly plugs. That shure is a bad joke, is it? How am i supposed measure anything else than dc with that 10cm inductance?

To be honest, I can’t even recall if mine came with some. Just do what many do and spend 30 seconds to make one using $0.05 of wire.  I’ve never been able to keep track of those things anyways.  FFS it’s just a small coil of wire. ::).

I can keep track of them fine and I prefer a proper snug spring clip I can R&I quickly as opposed to stripping some wire every time I need a low inductance ground lead.
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #245 on: July 04, 2018, 10:50:58 pm »
Yeah, I agree that R&S should have put them into the package. They seem to be in the ZP05 probe package, but not in the standard ZP03 ... And I don't see how to order them seperatly  :-//

 

Online KaneTW

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« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 12:33:19 am by KaneTW »
 

Offline sixtimesseven

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #247 on: July 05, 2018, 01:07:21 am »
That kind of sucks, especially for the money a RTB2004 costs.
Accessory package on the ZP10 seems better, too: https://i.imgur.com/sGfQfx6.png

E: http://www.datatec.de/RS-RT-ZA1-Zubehoer-Oszilloskop-Probe.htm http://www.datatec.de/RS-RT-ZA4-Zubehoer-Oszilloskop-Probe.htm http://www.datatec.de/RS-RT-ZA5-Zubehoer-Oszilloskop-Probe.htm  :-DD

The ZP10 Probe is about 375 Euro:
http://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskop-Tastkopf-Passiv-RT-ZP10.htm

The accesoire set costs 165 Euro:
http://www.datatec.de/RS-RT-ZA1-Zubehoer-Oszilloskop-Probe.htm

So ground spring probes cost as much as the base model  :-DD :-DD :-DD

And there seems to be no option for the ZP03, still a 100 Euro list price probe |O |O |O
The ZP03 even has the ring to fit a spring, but there is nothing from R&S, which is sad really. Makes the RTB200x set about a 10MHz kind of deal.

However, as I said there is bare metal exposed at the front. The diameter is 4.85mm which means a 4.5mm spring should fit.
https://au.rs-online.com/web/c/test-measurement/oscilloscopes-accessories/oscilloscope-probe-accessories/


Alternative would be the ProbeMaster springs for 2.90$ a pice:
http://probemaster.com/4983hg-high-frequency-ground/

They have more accesoire which seems to fit...

Edit: Probemaster springs...

« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 01:26:30 am by sixtimesseven »
 

Online KaneTW

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #248 on: July 05, 2018, 01:17:58 am »
I've checked https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rt_zp/Manual_RT-ZP10_en.pdf and

https://i.imgur.com/3DLlV1T.png probe is pretty bare-bones + that accessory package/clips/etc for $waytoomuch.

Silly.
 

Offline gsocker

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #249 on: July 05, 2018, 02:49:21 am »
You might also try PMK http://www.pmk.de/. At least the probes that came with my Hameg/R&S scopes (HMO, now RTO) are rebranded PMK probes. They don't seem to be widely available in the US, but might be easier to find in Europe.  If they are rebranded PMK probes, you can probably get the OEM accesories cheaper through one of their distributors.

Pico appears to use their 2.5mm probes as well, and so sells some of the accessory kits. Over here, I can buy the Picotech version of the accesories for much less than the R&S versions - a USD 58 accesory kit has almost everything the R&S kit does except for the replacement spring tips. Even adding those, it's still cheaper than R&S.
 


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