Author Topic: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!  (Read 106782 times)

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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #150 on: June 01, 2017, 12:22:50 am »
Simple question (inspired discussion in the Rigol bugs thread):

Does R&S, at any point, ever discuss the the open-sourcing (or otherwise free) release of source code or firmware at any point during the entire history of a product (from design through to obsolescence)? Why, or why not?

If it easier to provide an answer by restricting the domain to oscilloscopes, then please do.

It occurred to me that, while we all discuss and speculate reasons which we believe obviate the need to keep software closed and locked up, I wondered if the guys making test gear actually have the discussion internally or not. If not, why not? Surely there are upsides and downsides.

I suspect companies as large as R&S, Keysight, Tek, etc. also have educational programs and educational outreach. Perhaps that is a group of people internally could ask the original question from a different viewpoint: is there a point in a product lifecycle that the educational benefit of a source code release outweighs the need for competitive advantage for the techniques used within?

I don't mean to antagonize or anything, either: I genuinely thought that maybe the question (what do we lose and gain by open sourcing for this product, at this time?) isn't even being raised at any point in the lifetime of something like an oscilloscope.
Not antagonistic at all and a really good question IMHO. But it's not something I'm involved in at R&S.  :(

-Rich
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #151 on: June 09, 2017, 04:53:22 pm »
Hi, Rich,

  I have a question about the probe compensation waveform on the RTO1000 scopes.  It appears to have a very fast rise time, apparently less than 1 nanosecond.  I've never seen such a fast risetime on previous scopes I've used.  The user's manual doesn't say anything about rise time of this signal.  Can you find out what the nominal rise time is?

     Thanks.
 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2017, 10:05:22 pm »
Hi, Rich,

  I have a question about the probe compensation waveform on the RTO1000 scopes.  It appears to have a very fast rise time, apparently less than 1 nanosecond.  I've never seen such a fast risetime on previous scopes I've used.  The user's manual doesn't say anything about rise time of this signal.  Can you find out what the nominal rise time is?

     Thanks.
I second this question but for the RTB2k. It's fast enough that I can't measure it properly with the scope itself. Also knowing the impedance would be useful, thanks!
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #153 on: June 12, 2017, 07:16:53 am »
Hi Hydron and The Electrician - for both the RTB2000 and the RTO1000/2000 the probe compensation signal's rise-time is quite fast (100s of picoseconds vs most scopes are typically 10s of nanoseconds).  We don't spec it but I'll see if I can find out the exact rise-time. 

There are benefits and drawbacks to a fast rise-time on the probe comp signal.  If you use the typical alligator clip ground, you'll see ringing caused by the inductance of the extended ground lead (drawback).  But the benefit of the fast rise-time is it allows us to provide a high-frequency adjustment to the probes when you use the short spring clip ground (or on the RTB2000 it has a very elegant way of doing the probe comp with no ground accessory needed).

Hope this helps.

-Rich
 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2017, 09:30:13 pm »
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the info - was mainly interested in confirming that it was well under 1ns. The fast rise time is certainly useful - benefits definitely outweigh the drawback of needing a proper ground (if anything it teaches the user a lesson in good grounding :P)

On another note, did you ever find out about how the fan noise/speed control is meant to work in the RTB series? It was mentioned a while back - it seems that some users find their units very quiet, but others (unfortunately I'm among them) find theirs far from it. It's not a disaster, just strange that some find it quiet, some not, and I'd like to know if there is a problem or if it's just variability in the fan itself (or user's ears/noisy lab environment!). Note that it seems that the fan is running at full speed or close to it, rather than under thermal control.
 

Offline f5r5e5d

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2017, 05:18:02 am »
add me to the day one of use RTB2K-COM4 Gen sweep/arb trigger feature request - testequity was way slow to receive, ship 2nd batch

but certainly a lot to like at intro offer $2080 

phs,

great list. I would like to add one thing that really annoys me since the day I took my scope out of the box: trigger on the sweep of the signal generator.
This is something that was highlighted internally pretty early on, so hopefully will be addressed soon.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:28:45 am by f5r5e5d »
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #156 on: June 20, 2017, 06:16:45 am »
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the info - was mainly interested in confirming that it was well under 1ns. The fast rise time is certainly useful - benefits definitely outweigh the drawback of needing a proper ground (if anything it teaches the user a lesson in good grounding :P)

On another note, did you ever find out about how the fan noise/speed control is meant to work in the RTB series? It was mentioned a while back - it seems that some users find their units very quiet, but others (unfortunately I'm among them) find theirs far from it. It's not a disaster, just strange that some find it quiet, some not, and I'd like to know if there is a problem or if it's just variability in the fan itself (or user's ears/noisy lab environment!). Note that it seems that the fan is running at full speed or close to it, rather than under thermal control.
Hi Hydron - I thought I had replied to this but clearly I hadn't - sorry about that.  The fan is temperature controlled - if it is consistently running at full speed it would need to go in for service to fix that. 

-Rich
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #157 on: July 03, 2017, 02:01:00 pm »
Hi, i am looking to buy a multimeter,
any chance you will update the HMC8012 firmware to have "duty cycle display" in the future ?
thanks
aliexpress parachute
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #158 on: July 03, 2017, 02:15:19 pm »
Hi, i am looking to buy a multimeter,
any chance you will update the HMC8012 firmware to have "duty cycle display" in the future ?
thanks
Hi JanJansen - unfortunately, I'm not sure as I'm only focused on scopes.

Sorry I can't be more help.
Rich
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #159 on: July 03, 2017, 05:34:00 pm »
Hi Hydron and The Electrician - for both the RTB2000 and the RTO1000/2000 the probe compensation signal's rise-time is quite fast (100s of picoseconds vs most scopes are typically 10s of nanoseconds).  We don't spec it but I'll see if I can find out the exact rise-time. 

There are benefits and drawbacks to a fast rise-time on the probe comp signal.  If you use the typical alligator clip ground, you'll see ringing caused by the inductance of the extended ground lead (drawback).  But the benefit of the fast rise-time is it allows us to provide a high-frequency adjustment to the probes when you use the short spring clip ground (or on the RTB2000 it has a very elegant way of doing the probe comp with no ground accessory needed).

Hope this helps.

-Rich

Rich,

   Did you ever find out from the factory (or wherever) what the rise time is?
 


Offline The Electrician

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #161 on: July 03, 2017, 09:16:07 pm »
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/r-s-rt-zp03-manual-manuals-gb1_78701-172932.html
 :)

Is this supposed to answer my query about the rise time of the RTO calibrator?  I looked through it and didn't see anytning about that.
 

Offline Markus@RohdeScopes

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #162 on: July 05, 2017, 11:17:23 am »
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/r-s-rt-zp03-manual-manuals-gb1_78701-172932.html
 :)

Is this supposed to answer my query about the rise time of the RTO calibrator?  I looked through it and didn't see anytning about that.

Hi,

since the rise time is not checked during production, there are no production informations available. The design of the cal signal is very simple, we check the frequency and the output voltage. But I've measuered the rise time for you on some samples. I've used a 3 GHz single ended probe and got the following results: RTO 464 ps and RTB 604 ps. The probing is not so easy and it's hard to get reliable results. The rise time is steeper as needed for a passive probe calibration. Why do ask this question? I don't understand the intention.

Markus
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #163 on: July 05, 2017, 05:09:32 pm »
Why do ask this question? I don't understand the intention.

Markus

Simple curiosity.  I noticed that the rise time was less than 1 nanosecond and I wondered how much less.

It is in fact a handy source of fast rise time pulses to check probes; handy because it's right there on the scope.
 

Offline casinada

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #164 on: July 05, 2017, 10:30:33 pm »
I see the signal generated by the test probe/pattern generator has a faster rise time than the signal generator one. ~1.1nsec for the probe and ~13nsec for the signal generator.
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #165 on: August 04, 2017, 11:26:26 am »
 Hello.

 Possibly, I am the last person who received promotional RTB2004. It’s excellent device. It is a pity that the promo had VERY limited character.

 I express big gratitude to creators of the surprising tool. Also I’m very glad to that this thing was available to me. Even by means of little cunnings. Our world becomes better!

 Thanks.
 Mike.
 
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Offline bikerglen

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2017, 04:37:30 pm »
Hi, Rich,

I’m looking for a new scope for home/hobby use. At work, I use Keysight scopes and R&S spectrum analyzers but I’ve never used an R&S scope.

I have a few questions about the RTE1024:

1) What spectrum analysis capabilities are built-in to the base scope price without purchasing the spectrum analysis option?

2) Where in the product life cycle is the RTE1024? In other words, how much longer will it be fully supported for calibration, repairs, and parts replacement should the need arise?

3) How much to extend the product warranty out to five years?

4) How much is the flat-rate repair price?

I have to admit an R&S scope is a long shot given my familiarity with Keysight’s products, but I’m trying to keep an open mind.

By the way, I’m in Fort Collins if you and Daniel ever want to go mountain biking up here or I could show you around Curt Gowdy in Wyoming sometime if you’ve never been there. I wouldn’t mind hitting Captain Jack’s or some of the trails down your way either.

Thanks,
Glen Akins
bikerglen.com
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2017, 04:55:24 pm »
Hi, Rich,

I’m looking for a new scope for home/hobby use. At work, I use Keysight scopes and R&S spectrum analyzers but I’ve never used an R&S scope.

I have a few questions about the RTE1024:

1) What spectrum analysis capabilities are built-in to the base scope price without purchasing the spectrum analysis option?

2) Where in the product life cycle is the RTE1024? In other words, how much longer will it be fully supported for calibration, repairs, and parts replacement should the need arise?

3) How much to extend the product warranty out to five years?

4) How much is the flat-rate repair price?

I have to admit an R&S scope is a long shot given my familiarity with Keysight’s products, but I’m trying to keep an open mind.

By the way, I’m in Fort Collins if you and Daniel ever want to go mountain biking up here or I could show you around Curt Gowdy in Wyoming sometime if you’ve never been there. I wouldn’t mind hitting Captain Jack’s or some of the trails down your way either.

Thanks,
Glen Akins
bikerglen.com
Hi Glen,

Awesome on the mountain biking!  Definitely let Daniel and I know if you'll be in the Springs.  Captain Jacks is awesome.  Falcon on the Air Force Academy is another one of my favorites.  And I was actually just up in Ft Collins for the opening of CSU's new stadium (my wife went to CSU).  It's awesome - I especially love the New Belgium porch  ;D

With respect to your questions:

1.  The digital down conversion, hardware acceleration, SpecAn input, time gating, colorized view, etc are all part of the standard scope.  It is awesome and IMHO tough to go away from once you've used a scope with a fast FFT capability.  Option RTE-K18 adds spectrogram, logarithmic display and an automatic peak list detector.
2.  For the PLC, we provide 5-years of support once a product is discontinued, plus a significant amount of "best effort" beyond that.  I actually think this is a huge advantage for R&S - as a privately held company we don't have the typical inventory pressures that cause other companies to flush inventory over time so we can support things well beyond a "typical" amount of time.
3.  I'm not sure on this - I'll ask our service team.
4.  Ditto - I'll ask our service team.

-Rich
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2017, 08:46:12 pm »
2.  For the PLC, we provide 5-years of support once a product is discontinued, plus a significant amount of "best effort" beyond that.  I actually think this is a huge advantage for R&S - as a privately held company we don't have the typical inventory pressures that cause other companies to flush inventory over time so we can support things well beyond a "typical" amount of time.

Considering that 5 years after discontinuance is typical for Keysight and that LeCroy even offers 7 years full support after end of production, and that both companies support older gear based on best efforts (i.e. LeCroy still offers repair for the 9300 Series of scopes which are from the mid-'90s), I'm actually struggling to see where the huge advantage for R&S is in this regard.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2017, 08:59:28 pm »
2.  For the PLC, we provide 5-years of support once a product is discontinued, plus a significant amount of "best effort" beyond that.  I actually think this is a huge advantage for R&S - as a privately held company we don't have the typical inventory pressures that cause other companies to flush inventory over time so we can support things well beyond a "typical" amount of time.

Considering that 5 years after discontinuance is typical for Keysight and that LeCroy even offers 7 years full support after end of production, and that both companies support older gear based on best efforts (i.e. LeCroy still offers repair for the 9300 Series of scopes which are from the mid-'90s), I'm actually struggling to see where the huge advantage for R&S is in this regard.
Hi Wuerstchenhund - thanks for commenting and I'm glad to see you are commenting more again.  You are a valuable member of the community.

WRT the support, it is really the best effort part I was mentioning.  We had a third party evaluate RF products for support life (our scope products haven't been around long enough) and on average, our support was roughly 5 years longer than others in the industry.  Again, a large portion of this is due to us being privately held - if we have inventory we hold on to it, versus writing it off to improve things like ROIC (which is often important to investors in publicly held companies).  For scopes, I think you are correct about LeCroy - from what I can tell they do a very good job of long term support too.

-Rich
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2017, 09:58:29 pm »
I don't think the costs of keeping stuff in a warehouse depend much on whether a company is traded publicly or not. If the math of the beancounters shows it is better to dump everything then out it goes.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2017, 10:09:49 pm »
If the math of the beancounters shows it is better to dump everything then out it goes.
I do agree with that.  But I personally have seen that beancounters in a privately held company have the benefit of thinking about things a little differently (and arguably more logically) than ones in a publicly traded company who may have odd measures that are more geared towards investors than customers or employees. 

And I'm not trying to start a war around this - just to summarize back to the original question, I think Glen (and other R&S scope users) can rest assured that our support life is at least as good as others.

-Rich
 

Offline agdr

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #172 on: August 19, 2017, 03:53:43 am »
...us being privately held...

I didn't know R&S was privately held!  Interesting.  That is a whole new kettle of fish (in a good way).  I've been an exec at both public and private companies, and yes definitely, the focus can be very different, especially with respect to investors/stockholders.  Kind of the "new thing" here in the States the last few years has been taking public companies private (again), especially via large hedge fund buyouts, to get the thing out of the public eye and end the required public quarterly reporting nightmare, so they can move forward more nimbly.

Well good for R&S!
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSATopic starter

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #173 on: August 19, 2017, 04:02:11 am »
...us being privately held...

I didn't know R&S was privately held!  Interesting.  That is a whole new kettle of fish (in a good way).  I've been an exec at both public and private companies, and yes definitely, the focus can be very different, especially with respect to investors/stockholders.  Kind of the "new thing" here in the States the last few years has been taking public companies private (again), especially via large hedge fund buyouts, to get the thing out of the public eye and end the required public quarterly reporting nightmare, so they can move forward more nimbly.

Well good for R&S!
Yep - owned by the same two families for the last 80+ years. 

-Rich
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rohde & Schwarz Oscilloscopes - Questions/Comments? Let me know!
« Reply #174 on: August 19, 2017, 07:40:49 am »
WRT the support, it is really the best effort part I was mentioning.  We had a third party evaluate RF products for support life (our scope products haven't been around long enough) and on average, our support was roughly 5 years longer than others in the industry.  Again, a large portion of this is due to us being privately held - if we have inventory we hold on to it, versus writing it off to improve things like ROIC (which is often important to investors in publicly held companies).  For scopes, I think you are correct about LeCroy - from what I can tell they do a very good job of long term support too.

I know from my own experience that R&S really keeps even very old parts on stock, and in general even tries to support old equipment, but as I said that's in line with what other big brands offer. I also don't think this is a question of being privately held or a public company (not every public company has surrendered to the MBAs, Keysight and even more so LeCroy are very engineering-driven; on the other side, Tek is a good example of a T&M company purely driven by MBAs).

The real advantage for companies being privately held shows during economic hard times like the 2008 financial crisis, as they tend to weather the storm much better than public companies who have to baby nervous shareholders. And the valuation of your company not based on rumors and expectations is generally a good thing as well.


I didn't know R&S was privately held!

That's the norm for many German companies. And of those that are public companies often the majority is owned by one or two families as well.

Quote
Interesting.  That is a whole new kettle of fish (in a good way).  I've been an exec at both public and private companies, and yes definitely, the focus can be very different, especially with respect to investors/stockholders.  Kind of the "new thing" here in the States the last few years has been taking public companies private (again), especially via large hedge fund buyouts, to get the thing out of the public eye and end the required public quarterly reporting nightmare, so they can move forward more nimbly.

In the US, especially the west coast, the modern general mantra for company founders says you can be either a king (i.e. you have full control over the company) or be rich (i.e. you make a lot of money from the company) but not both. So if you setup a startup and seek investment, once the company grows to a certain size usually your investors will ask you to step aside and cede control to a new CEO, and by doing that you're reaping the riches the new CEO will generate. The thinking behind this is that while an entrepreneur is usually a specialist when it comes to the specific products the company makes, he's often overwhelmed by the more mundane responsibilities that come with leading a growing business, so an 'experienced CEO' (one of those types that can easily drive down a company and still make it off with the golden parachute, someone like Carly Fiorina or Leo Apotheker) is brought in to decide the company's future path (short-term focused of course).

In Germany however (although it used to be common in the US, too) it's common that company founders keep control of their business pretty much to the founder's death, and then control often goes to someone in the founder's family (i.e. sons/daughters). As the company grows, they learn how to manage their company pretty much on the job, and accept that they're not getting rich quickly (but money is usually not the reason they're in it in the first place). Which resulted in a swath of internationally renowned German companies not just R&S but also Aldi (which is now even in the US), Thyssen Krupp, Abt, Krauss-Maffei, Bosch and others. It shows that, indeed, you can be king and get rich (although it takes a lot longer).

I guess the main difference is if you're in for the quick buck (in which case the US model is a better choice) or for the long-term.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 01:12:23 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 


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