R&S RTM3004 The Swiss-Knife-Oscilloscope

[nctnico]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts

Maybe Rich could clarify this: the 3000 spec says 80MPts per channel (on a 4 channel scope with 2 channels disabled) is only available when the digital channels are disabled. This seems to hint towards the analog waveform memory being shared with the digital channels but it may be a typo.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Quick comparison of 4000 vs. 3000 datasheets
100/200 vs 40/80M memory

0.5 vs. 2.5ppm timebase accuracy ( TCXO presumably)
1 extra digit on frequency counter
No improvement in waveform rate

So perhaps the same PCB with more memory and a better oscillator ?
Doesn't seem much for a whole new series number...

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts

Maybe Rich could clarify this: the 3000 spec says 80MPts per channel (on a 4 channel scope with 2 channels disabled) is only available when the digital channels are disabled. This seems to hint towards the analog waveform memory being shared with the digital channels but it may be a typo.

Good question.  The way it works is you can get the 80MSamples when using alternating channels (e.g. one channel of a two channel pair) and/or half the logic channels (8 of them).  If you turn on a full pair (e.g. 1 and 2 simultaneous) you get the 40Msample per channel and/or turn on all 16 digital channels you get the 40Msample per channel (analog and digital channels). 

-Rich

[nctnico]

The new R&S 3000 and 4000 scopes have more memory than I've ever seen in any scope below $50K.  It's standard and no extra memory options to have to considered.  Nice job R&S on this part.  the 3000 has  80Mpts

Maybe Rich could clarify this: the 3000 spec says 80MPts per channel (on a 4 channel scope with 2 channels disabled) is only available when the digital channels are disabled. This seems to hint towards the analog waveform memory being shared with the digital channels but it may be a typo.

Good question.  The way it works is you can get the 80MSamples when using alternating channels (e.g. one channel of a two channel pair) and/or half the logic channels (8 of them).  If you turn on a full pair (e.g. 1 and 2 simultaneous) you get the 40Msample per channel and/or turn on all 16 digital channels you get the 40Msample per channel (analog and digital channels). 

-Rich

Now I get it. Perhaps the datasheet should be more clear on this.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Regarding MSO port - who would want hard HDMI cable sticking out of scope front and trying to occupy your working space on a table? - Not me.

Example:

But back would usually be better than side - for gear on a shelf above the bench it means you need to leave a gap.

[JoHr]

R&S states that more memory can be used for segmented mode, but this is a special case and I don't normally care about this mode.

It does appear that they have a way of using segmented to improve waveform capture rate to 700Kwfms/sec. I wonder if they maybe do something like disabling realtime display during acquisition to achieve this

On the RTO/RTE series it is called "Ultra Segmentation".
And yes waveforms are captured without being displayed in real time to make blind time as short as possible.
See 'rearming time for triggering' ...

[nctnico]

But back would usually be better than side - for gear on a shelf above the bench it means you need to leave a gap.

I agree. Having connections on the side isn't ideal. I rather have MSO probes attached to the back.

[darkstar49]

Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

It does    And I've heard there might be some easter eggs in it, but no Pamela Anderson 

-Rich

who knows ?? your (RTB) firmware files are encrypted, so there's no way to check... 

[genghisnico13]

Quickly comparing datasheets of 3004 vs. 2004 :
...
(but no filter options like Keysight have - lowpass is handy for visualising PWM signals)
Spectrogram (option)
...

In Page 94 of the RTM3004 User manual they show High pass and Low pass filters as Math functions, they must have forgotten to add them to the datasheet.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Quickly comparing datasheets of 3004 vs. 2004 :
...
(but no filter options like Keysight have - lowpass is handy for visualising PWM signals)
Spectrogram (option)
...

In Page 94 of the RTM3004 User manual they show High pass and Low pass filters as Math functions, they must have forgotten to add them to the datasheet.

This is correct - we have high-pass and low-pass filters as math functions.

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

[ogden]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

Apart from overall "quick review" of scope functions would be nice to see FFT & spectrum analysis+waterfall in some details, with test signal and so on - to understand how close it is to "proper" SA. Indeed TEK MDO3000 have RF input, wider freq range and (supposedly) all the "bells and whistles" of proper SA, but maybe now RTM3004 FFT is good enough to consider for low freq range? If you could do side-by side RTM3004 to MDO3104 - would be funtastic

[MikeP]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

Apart from overall "quick review" of scope functions would be nice to see FFT & spectrum analysis+waterfall in some details, with test signal and so on - to understand how close it is to "proper" SA. Indeed TEK MDO3000 have RF input, wider freq range and (supposedly) all the "bells and whistles" of proper SA, but maybe now RTM3004 FFT is good enough to consider for low freq range? If you could do side-by side RTM3004 to MDO3104 - would be funtastic

 Very interesting how the new-FFT work. And also interesting are the differences between the regular FFT and the spectrum analyzer package.
 Thanks.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Spectrum mode disables waveform display for much faster update,and frequency range also appears much wider. Not had time to explore more details yet.
Digital probe plug+cable only sticks out 20mm to the right relative to front of frame, so not a huge deal. Cables are reasonably flexible - similar to 2004 ribbon.
 

[dr.diesel]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

Looking forward to the review, teardown possible on that new unit?

[nctnico]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

I agree. Pricewise the RTM3000 seems to compete with the Tektronix' MSO5 series and those have an Intel i5 under the hood. I'm not saying that Tektronix is taking full advantage of that processing power but at least there is the potential to do decoding, math and long (>1Mpts) FFT quickly.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

I agree. Pricewise the RTM3000 seems to compete with the Tektronix' MSO5 series and those have an Intel i5 under the hood. I'm not saying that Tektronix is taking full advantage of that processing power but at least there is the potential to do decoding, math and long (>1Mpts) FFT quickly.

It also has "spectrum" mode (option) which omits the waveform display processing to make FFT display substantially quicker - only had a brief play so far but seems pretty fast. Not sure if you can control length/memory in that mode.

[hwj-d]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

It seems, that on my RTB2k trigger-out to aux has a big problem. As i can see at the other scope, it has irregular dropouts with different length. And it doesn't look like it's in context to any further trigger settings. Tested with simple external generated 10MHz square wave 5Vpp 50% duty cycle.

Can you confirm it? And if yes, is it on this new scope too? Thanks.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

It seems, that on my RTB2k trigger-out to aux has a big problem. As i can see at the other scope, it has irregular dropouts with different length. And it doesn't look like it's in context to any further trigger settings. Tested with simple external generated 10MHz square wave 5Vpp 50% duty cycle.

Can you confirm it? And if yes, is it on this new scope too? Thanks.

I did look at this before and I think the irregularites are in the triggering not to the trigger-to-auxout, but will take another look.

[0xfede]

I should have one some time next week - let me know if there's anything you particularly want to see tested.

It seems, that on my RTB2k trigger-out to aux has a big problem. As i can see at the other scope, it has irregular dropouts with different length. And it doesn't look like it's in context to any further trigger settings. Tested with simple external generated 10MHz square wave 5Vpp 50% duty cycle.

Can you confirm it? And if yes, is it on this new scope too? Thanks.

I did look at this before and I think the irregularites are in the triggering not to the trigger-to-auxout, but will take another look.

I'm convinced of that too. The overall performance of the instruments seems to degrade in this configuration and I discovered that if you unplug and replug the USB device (in my case a logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo) when triggering a 10MHZ signal it raise an error. The only way to get the USB port working again is a reboot. Moreover I added an infrequent glitch to the ARB and the wfm/s seems very low but I must investigate further.

[JPortici]

I personally prefer them out the side (or the back) - better cable management/egress IMO.  But I know some folks prefer out the front.

how? you don't have equipment stacked horizontaly (and vertically)?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just received unit. Initial impression is UI is no faster than the RTB2004.

Although I don't find the 2004 toooooo irritating, that is a bit disappointing, anything faster would be a notable selling point IMO.

I agree. Pricewise the RTM3000 seems to compete with the Tektronix' MSO5 series and those have an Intel i5 under the hood. I'm not saying that Tektronix is taking full advantage of that processing power but at least there is the potential to do decoding, math and long (>1Mpts) FFT quickly.

It also has "spectrum" mode (option) which omits the waveform display processing to make FFT display substantially quicker - only had a brief play so far but seems pretty fast. Not sure if you can control length/memory in that mode.

After a quick play, you can specify memory in FFT-spectrum mode, and obviously it slows down as memory increases. You have to get to 5Mpoints before it falls below 1 spectrum/sec.

[borjam]

Looks like it might run the same/similar FW as the RTB2000s, which is good for continuous improvement/bug fixes long term etc.

It does    And I've heard there might be some easter eggs in it, but no Pamela Anderson 

Do buyers get a choice of easter egg? Could be interesting. I vote for Eva Green 

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

I personally prefer them out the side (or the back) - better cable management/egress IMO.  But I know some folks prefer out the front.

how? you don't have equipment stacked horizontaly (and vertically)?

I have my equipment stacked vertically with the scope on top.  Hence the MSO coming out the side is nice as it doesn't hang down in front of the equipment below. 

-Rich

[mikeselectricstuff]

First bug found - in spectrum/spectrogram mode, it often (but not always) clears the spectrogram display when you stop acquisition using the run/stop button