Author Topic: Scope Purchase  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 10:55:11 PM »
I remember reading a thread where a senior member of the forum complained about the font size on the 1054z. Maybe this is something worth considering. I don't have the rigol so I can't really say.

The Rigol font isn't especially small or different than other 'scopes.

The only reason you see complaints like this next to the word "Rigol" is because so many people have bought Rigols.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 11:02:56 PM »
The Rigol font isn't especially small or different than other 'scopes.

It should be a readable Sans Serif font but is a Serif and too small and barely readable which is a  :--
 

Offline DDunfield

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 11:05:44 PM »
1) DS1054Z (4ch 50Nhz 1GS-total)

Yes, I have one - I bought it for 4 channels and the deep memory (and good luck prying it from my fingers). I HAVE NOT upgraded it to 100Mhz although I may after the warranty expires. 50Mhz is plenty for almost all of the stuff that I need a 4ch/deep scope for.

I've got to ask why not? You do realize the scope can be reset (unhacked) with a single command sent over telnet, in such a way that Rigol won't know that you had ever unlocked the features, and thus wouldn't lose your warranty anyways right? I could understand if you didn't want to liberate it out of some sense of morality I guess, or even if you just didn't need the additional bandwidth and options at this point, but to not do it now because its in warranty just doesn't make sense.

I do know that it can be un-hacked. The primary reasons it's not hacked for 100Mhz are:

I have 400Mhz scope which I use if I feel a "need for speed".

My main use for the DS1054Z is as a 4-channel scope, and it's not a great 4-CH scope at 100Mhz (only 2.5x sample rate). It would be nice if Rigol had included a 50Mhz bandwidth limit option, but they didn't (for that matter since they also offer a 70Mhz version they could have provided 20/50/70Mhz limits as it's obviously all controlled by software).

There is an (admittedly small) chance that it could fail in a way which prevents me issuing SCP commands (fails to power up etc.). It's not clear if Rigol would honor the warranty on a hacked scope. I do recall one guy posting that he received a nice note in his box saying that they would not (there was no such note in my box).



I got the scope nearly a year ago. I used it till the trials were about to expired, then I generated a 'DSER' key for all options (including 100Mhz)... in my uses, I noticed absolutely no difference in quality of measurements, and there was the little niggle in the back of my mind that it was probably better for 4CH use at 50Mhz.

I also did have a slight morality issue as being a software developer I am sensitive to licenses, although unlike many larger companies, I do not believe that every package that someone installed without paying me meant a lost sale - In my experience most users who depend on your product will actually buy it. Those who "steal" it are likely to either just be playing with it, or would not have bought it if they were forced to pay - so knowing I would not have shelled out for the DS1104Z I allowed myself to hack it. But again, that little niggle knowing that I was using a hacked tool for professional purposes.

Btw, The basis of a morality issue is that you are using code that was developed (presumably at some expense) and you have not contributed to the recovery of that expense. I have no such issue with the 100Mhz or Deep memory options, as they are NOT code (other than a small bit designed to prevent you from using them). These are implemented in hardware that you now own.



I happened to show the scope to a colleague in December and he liked it so much he purchased two from my dealer. I was surprised that he received keys to install all the options for free (not 100Mhz which isn't officially an option).

I contacted Rigol and asked if they would offer such love to an existing customer and they said (paraphrased) "screw off - the deal started in November and you bought yours before that - you could try contacting your dealer".

I contacted my Dealer and he said "I'll get you the option certificate" (Great dealer - it probably helped that I had just sold two scopes for him).
Two days later I had the official from Rigol options certificate, so I cleared the scope and installed the official Rigol keys. Now I have everything except 100Mhz (which I'm not convinced I want) and it's all above board. No more niggles.

The reason I said "I might hack it when the warranty expires" wasn't so much about the warranty, and should have read "in a few years" - at some point I will downsize my location, and the TDS380 will likely go as it's big - when that happens, having the 1054Z be able to do 1 (well) or 2 (mostly OK)  channel at 100Mhz might be useful - but as noted in my previous post, I almost never drag out the 380 these days.



Interesting observation about Rigol keys:

You can see they key type within the printed key, for example the 'DSER' key which enables "everything" looks like:

xDxxxxx-xxSxxxx-xxxExxx-xxxxRxx

The one they send you is a 'DSAR' key which activates all options except for the unofficial 100Mhz option and the unsupported 500uv option.

But... the other letters are NOT the same as a DSAR key generated with RIGLOL, although both keys work.

This means that either:

1) There are multiple encoding of the same key and Riglol uses a different method than Riglol.
 -or-
2) They master key used by Riglol is not the same as the one used by Rigol and the scope accepts either key. This would imply that the key Riglol has wasn't "accidentally leaked"... (maybe you need to put an aluminium foil "hat" on your hacked scopes -- they might know they are special! :-)

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 11:08:43 PM »
Another option might be an Analog Discovery. It's a little gadget designed for learning electronics and has a built-in oscilloscope with enough bandwidth for "Arduino" work (also for Audio work, where its fancy 14-bit DAC shines).
The 10MHz bandwidth isn't quite enough for digital signals from the Arduino, but the 16-bit 100MS/s logic analyser is fast enough - and the 16-bit pattern generator is the digital equivalent of the AWG..

Are you looking at the old one? The ADII has "30MHz+" bandwidth and 100Msamples/sec.

http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/


 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 11:11:48 PM »
The Rigol font isn't especially small or different than other 'scopes.

It should be a readable Sans Serif font but is a Serif

Really?

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:15:16 PM by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 11:22:10 PM »
My main use for the DS1054Z is as a 4-channel scope, and it's not a great 4-CH scope at 100Mhz (only 2.5x sample rate).

The sample rate goes up with less channels - 10x with only one channel enabled.

(I'm sure you know this, I'm just pointing it out to newbies)

I also did have a slight morality issue as being a software developer I am sensitive to licenses, although unlike many larger companies, I do not believe that every package that someone installed without paying me meant a lost sale

I know that Rigol would have lost a LOT of sales if it wasn't hackable.

eg. If the Rigol wasn't hackable I'd probably be recommending the Goodwill Instek GDS1000B.
 

Online BravoV

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2018, 12:25:20 AM »
I remember reading a thread where a senior member of the forum complained about the font size on the 1054z. Maybe this is something worth considering. I don't have the rigol so I can't really say. I played around with the Micsig and it's a nice scope but it's definitely different from the norm. Scope wise all of these new entry level scopes are great bang for buck, you can't go wrong. They're a far cry from the cheap digital scopes from 10 years back.

I guess the "senior" member you mentioned never used nor saw an analog scope before, yes, I'm pretty sure if it, as most popular analog scopes screen size are smaller than DS1054Z.

Here an example, my DS1104Z (which has identical screen size and font with DS1054Z) on top/vs popular analog Tek scope's screen, which I believe represents most analog scopes screen size. And yes, this particular analog scope model has text readout, which is smaller than DS1054Z's font.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 01:04:52 AM by BravoV »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2018, 02:47:51 AM »
Another option might be an Analog Discovery. It's a little gadget designed for learning electronics and has a built-in oscilloscope with enough bandwidth for "Arduino" work (also for Audio work, where its fancy 14-bit DAC shines).
The 10MHz bandwidth isn't quite enough for digital signals from the Arduino, but the 16-bit 100MS/s logic analyser is fast enough - and the 16-bit pattern generator is the digital equivalent of the AWG..

Are you looking at the old one? The ADII has "30MHz+" bandwidth and 100Msamples/sec.

http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

I have an AD, and it always was a very generous 10MHz (i.e. <<3dB down).

However, the AD2's 30MHz makes it even more of a no-brainer!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2018, 03:08:54 AM »
I guess the "senior" member you mentioned never used nor saw an analog scope before, yes, I'm pretty sure if it, as most popular analog scopes screen size are smaller than DS1054Z.

It doesn't take much thought to realise that "size" is a meaningless and misleading metric w.r.t. usability. A couple of examples...

The original Apple Macs had a more readable and usable screen than the contemporary IBM PCs -- because they had a smaller screen and despite having lower resolution.

If bigger is better, then presumably you would be very impressed with one a display made from NeoPixels!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2018, 03:22:20 AM »
The Rigol font isn't especially small or different than other 'scopes.

It should be a readable Sans Serif font but is a Serif

Really?

Look: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-font-size/msg555711/#msg555711

"Re: Ridiculously small Rigol DS1000z series font size
« Reply #35 on: 22-11-2014, 16:44:06 »
They did partially fix it with firmware 04.*. They changed the font used for displaying measurements, it's now a sans-serif instead of a serif, which makes it easier to read, even if it is still the same size.

As mentioned above, they added a "large" option for the measurements, it doubles the font size and makes it bold. Doesn't look great design wise (overlaps with the trace area), but it's useful when you're sitting at more than arms length from the scope.

I wouldn't call it perfect, but it doesn't annoy me everytime I look at the measurements anymore."
 

Online BravoV

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 03:23:58 AM »
If bigger is better, then presumably you would be very impressed with one a display made from NeoPixels!

Yep, I've been dreaming of such huge wall display made from that at home at one of my lab's wall, view from the right distance of course, especially for my aging eyes, that will be awesome.  :-+

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 03:28:24 AM »

I guess the "senior" member you mentioned never used nor saw an analog scope before, yes, I'm pretty sure if it, as most popular analog scopes screen size are smaller than DS1054Z.


I'd swear the characters on e.g. a tek 2232 are larger even though its screen is smaller. And, at least for me, easier to read, that's for sure.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 04:26:35 AM by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
 

Offline kelchm

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 03:43:06 AM »
He also mentioned a "very limited budget" but the Siglent pushers have no problem ignoring it.

Yes, how dare I suggest someone take a look at an alternative to the 1054Z and decide for themselves.  ::)
 

Online mtdoc

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2018, 03:43:52 AM »
I have an AD, and it always was a very generous 10MHz (i.e. <<3dB down).

However, the AD2's 30MHz makes it even more of a no-brainer!

The scope and FG hardware is identical in the AD and AD2. Scope bandwidth is the same (i.e. 30 MHz). The “10MHz” was a misguided marketing decision by Digilent not to confuse students with -3dB considerations This is documented in the original AD technical document and confirmed by side by side comparisons. There have been previous discussions about this here.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:59:40 AM by mtdoc »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2018, 03:50:38 AM »
I guess the "senior" member you mentioned never used nor saw an analog scope before, yes, I'm pretty sure if it, as most popular analog scopes screen size are smaller than DS1054Z.

Here an example, my DS1104Z (which has identical screen size and font with DS1054Z) on top/vs popular analog Tek scope's screen, which I believe represents most analog scopes screen size. And yes, this particular analog scope model has text readout, which is smaller than DS1054Z's font.

The difference is that oscilloscope CRTs of that size have higher resolution than the DS1054Z LCD despite being smaller.

6x4.2 inch 800x480 LCD 133dpi
3.94x3.15 inch 1000x800 CRT 254dpi

The vertical CRT resolution on a Tektronix 2230/2232 is 4 times higher than the ADC resolution. If you look closely, you can *see* the ADC steps; they are not a display artifact and instead are the display accurately rendering the ADC's quantization.  This becomes apparent when averaging is used and a diagonal trace turns smooth with no antialiasing or other display processing.  The same high CRT resolution makes the readout easier to read even if the readout text is smaller and in some cases, the readout characters are generated using vectors instead of a raster further increasing their clarity.

For technical reasons having to do with the CRT being designed for higher bandwidth, the Tektronix 2465B in your example is not quite that good but it is still better than any DSO LCD.  The 2465B also uses a raster instead of vectors for its readout characters which I think was a step backwards.

Maybe at some point DSOs with "retina" displays will become available.  Then they will have caught up with 30 years ago.

The original Apple Macs had a more readable and usable screen than the contemporary IBM PCs -- because they had a smaller screen and despite having lower resolution.

The Macintosh 512×342 display looked better than the 640×200 CGA PC display most people used but not better then the MGA/Hercules 720×350 display commonly used in business.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2018, 03:54:24 AM »
I think the bandwidth part of the hack is the least interesting or important part of the hack. I am rarely, if ever, finding myself needing it if I am being honest. I always laugh hearing about the hobbyists chasing high bandwidth, 10 bit adcs, and fft for use with their Arduino projects. You just don't need it. 4 channels on the other hand, advanced trigger options and serial decoding, all very relevant for the hobbyist.

No amount of finesse can make up for inadequate bandwidth but it is often possible to get by with fewer channels especially if you make use of the external trigger.

Instead of thinking in terms of bandwidth, think in terms of transition time.  25 MHz TTL is about 3.5 nanoseconds which is 100 MHz for an oscilloscope.  100 MHz FAST and AS TTL is almost 1 nanosecond which is 350 MHz.  Common low voltage CMOS logic is closer to the later than the former and no matter what the clock speed is, the fast edge is what matters and a 100 MHz oscilloscope can completely miss problems like double clocking even with the "slow" logic associated with an Arduino.

I do the same thing rstofer does.  I have a 100 MHz DSO for general purpose use and inexpensive used analog oscilloscopes for high bandwidth when needed for signal integrity analysis.

 

Online mtdoc

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2018, 03:56:34 AM »
I remember reading a thread where a senior member of the forum complained about the font size on the 1054z. Maybe this is something worth considering. I don't have the rigol so I can't really say. I played around with the Micsig and it's a nice scope but it's definitely different from the norm. Scope wise all of these new entry level scopes are great bang for buck, you can't go wrong. They're a far cry from the cheap digital scopes from 10 years back.

I guess the "senior" member you mentioned never used nor saw an analog scope before, yes, I'm pretty sure if it, as most popular analog scopes screen size are smaller than DS1054Z.

The issue is the amount of tiny video screen colored text required to operate a 1054z scope, not the font size on the controls which anyone familiar with a scope will not have to regularly read. Multiple menus and submenus and on screen data, decodes... oi vay! If you’re not over 50 you may not understand.

I sometimes had problems even on my Rigol 2072 which has a bigger screen than the 1054z.  On the other hand, i have no issues with my Tek 2467 which has a slightly smaller screen than the 2465b.

My R&S RB2004 is a joy with it’s large screen!
 

Online BravoV

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2018, 03:59:19 AM »
I remember reading a thread where a senior member of the forum complained about the font size on the 1054z. Maybe this is something worth considering. I don't have the rigol so I can't really say. I played around with the Micsig and it's a nice scope but it's definitely different from the norm. Scope wise all of these new entry level scopes are great bang for buck, you can't go wrong. They're a far cry from the cheap digital scopes from 10 years back.

I guess the "senior" member you mentioned never used nor saw an analog scope before, yes, I'm pretty sure if it, as most popular analog scopes screen size are smaller than DS1054Z.

The issue is the amount of tiny video screen colored text required to operate a 1054z scope, not the font size on the controls which anyone familiar with a scope will not have to regularly read. Multiple menus and submenus and on screen data, decodes... oi vay! If you’re not over 50 you may not understand.

I sometimes had problems even on my Rigol 2072 which has a bigger screen than the 1054z.  On the other hand, i have no issues with my Tek 2467 which has a slightly smaller screen than the 2465b.

My R&S RB2004 is a joy with it’s large screen!

Ok, may be I should wait till I'm over 50, probably my preference will be different, noted.

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2018, 04:07:11 AM »
If bigger is better, then presumably you would be very impressed with one a display made from NeoPixels!

Yep, I've been dreaming of such huge wall display made from that at home at one of my lab's wall, view from the right distance of course, especially for my aging eyes, that will be awesome.  :-+

Can I suggest that an overnight visit to Procrustes (in Attica, Greece) could improve the ergonomics of working on such a bench!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2018, 04:12:16 AM »
Ok, may be I should wait till I'm over 50, probably my preference will be different, noted.

And then you'll also scream against the current fashion for saving ink by printing thin grey characters - and wasting ink by having a grey background.

When I got reading glasses at ~43, my doctor said "right on time".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Gliding aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline egonotto

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2018, 05:28:12 AM »
Quote from: tggzzz
I have an AD, and it always was a very generous 10MHz (i.e. <<3dB down).

However, the AD2's 30MHz makes it even more of a no-brainer!
[/quote

Hello,

AD and AD2 have the same bandwidth

Best regards
egonotto
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2018, 06:16:55 AM »
Digilent specs the Analog Discovery to 30Mhz for the scope and 12Mhz for the AWG with the addition of the $20 BNC add-on board. I would have a PC at my bench anyway, and the ability to use two large monitors is a huge plus to my 65 year old eyes. I still expect to get a stand alone digital scope, but mostly for the 4 channels. I like the large monitors so much I am seriously considering a PICO scope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2018, 06:23:08 AM »
Do many modern scopes support an external monitor? My Tek DSOs both have VGA outputs I can use to connect as big a monitor as I want.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2018, 06:47:46 AM »
If you are looking for bargains and, given you are in the US, you may want to take a look at the clearance bins of Rigol and Tequipment:

https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z-B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=54585
https://www.rigolna.com/clearance/

I bought my oscilloscope from Rigol's clearance bin and I had an excellent experience.

You can also look at eBay, especially some bargains at Keysight (ex-HP or Agilent) used store:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-EDUX1002A-InfiniiVision-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-50-MHz-2-Channel-/192163107184?hash=item2cbdd05170
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSO1072B-Oscilloscope-2-channel-70-MHz-16k-m-Agilent-/173090947637?hash=item284d064235
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Scope Purchase
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2018, 07:01:14 AM »
The issue is the amount of tiny video screen colored text required to operate a 1054z scope, not the font size on the controls which anyone familiar with a scope will not have to regularly read. Multiple menus and submenus and on screen data, decodes... oi vay! If you’re not over 50 you may not understand.

I sometimes had problems even on my Rigol 2072 which has a bigger screen than the 1054z.  On the other hand, i have no issues with my Tek 2467 which has a slightly smaller screen than the 2465b.

My R&S RB2004 is a joy with it’s large screen!

For a while DSOs routinely came with VGA outputs so an external monitor could be used.  This usually does not help with resolution but the size then becomes a matter of money and space.
 


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