Author Topic: Scope : wait for new models ?  (Read 21682 times)

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Offline JanJansen

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Scope : wait for new models ?
« on: December 07, 2016, 03:25:34 am »
Hi, i,m looking into buying a scope.
Suppose a scope is already 4 years on the market, would you still buy it and risk a better model will be released soon ?,
with a multimeter i think it dont matters very much, with a scope is a different story, technology goes fast, bigger screens, more bitrate, more CPU.

When is a scope old in this market ?, how often are new releases per brand ?

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Online tggzzz

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2016, 03:35:44 am »
The same question can be asked about cars.

But that's the wrong question. Better questions are
  • what are my problems where I will use a scope?,
  • what features do I need to accomplish the job, and what features would I like to have?,
  • is scope X sufficient to do the job?
  • can I do the job without a scope, or is there a better tool?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online Hydrawerk

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2016, 03:36:20 am »
It depends on the manufacturer. Keysight DSOX2000 / DSOX3000 are 6 years old and Tektronix MSO2000B is about 9 years old and no new model is coming AFAIK.
But you might wait till february 2017 or so. New scopes are often released at this part of a year.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2016, 03:52:29 am »
Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
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Offline JanJansen

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2016, 04:06:11 am »
HD screen, memory size, memory bitrate, CPU speed, HDMI output instead of VGA, many things can be upgraded,
not that i realy need all that, if i wait a while, i will have all that for the same price as now, only how long is the question.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2016, 04:13:59 am »
Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2016, 04:37:20 am »
Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.

The OP asked about new model intervals, not market value depreciation.
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Offline JanJansen

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2016, 04:42:25 am »
That is about the same, when a new model comes out, nobody wants the old model, so its worth nothing anymore compared to new price.
I have these pioneer CDJ cd players, i bought them just before they released a USB cd player, that aint going to happen to me this time with my scope money.

I am looking for buying the R&S Hameg HMO 1002.
Ofcourse if it is a good product, it wont need replacing, good brands dont replace often.

On the other hand, technology goes very fast, and releasing new stuff sells more.
I would buy the HMO 1002 right now if i had the money, since i dont think they will discontinue this one very fast because it is a good brand.

So its very double, i can spend my money only once, meanwhile i still use my old phillips scope, only its drifting with high frequencys, and getting vague.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 04:51:23 am by JanJansen »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2016, 05:38:26 am »
The HMO1002 would not even be on my list. Small 640x480 display and the built quality isn't very good (PCB not well supported and BNCs not bolted to the chassis). At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).
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Online thm_w

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2016, 08:51:02 am »
That is about the same, when a new model comes out, nobody wants the old model, so its worth nothing anymore compared to new price.
I have these pioneer CDJ cd players, i bought them just before they released a USB cd player, that aint going to happen to me this time with my scope money.

You are comparing a complete paradigm change in storage medium, to digital storage scope. Its not going to happen any time soon.
HMO1002 50MHz - $975
HMO1002 100MHz - $1250

Its not that expensive, but 2Mpts memory, 1Gsps, 10kwfm is disappointing. DS2072a can be had for $840, 2GSps, 14Mpts memory, 50kwfm, and that is before any hacks.
2072 is starting to get older at this point, but its just demonstrating the poor value of the hameg.

If you are worried so much about value, buy a cheap used scope or something like a DS1054Z. Even if something new comes out, the drop in value will be minimal.
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Online rstofer

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2016, 09:42:02 am »
If all the manufacturers got together and said, "OK, we're all going to release our next products on <insert date here>!".  Great, wait a few weeks after the date and make a choice.

They can't do that!  Probably by law!

So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now.  Something better will always be coming out.  The questions are:  How much better?  Do I care?  How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?

Most important question:  Will the latest and greatest have to go through several firmware versions before they get the bugs out?

This is a no-win deal!  You could conceivably wait forever hoping for just one more thing!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2016, 10:47:41 am »
When is a scope old in this market ?, how often are new releases per brand ?

That 4-5 year mark is about right.
Rumour has it someone has a prototype scope in their lab  8)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2016, 10:50:54 am »
Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.

There is an initial drop of course, but what I think Mike is saying there is once that happens they do hold that value for a long time. At least the good models do, there are some dogs that don't.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2016, 10:56:46 am »
So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now.  Something better will always be coming out.  The questions are:  How much better?  Do I care?  How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?

Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.

Apart from that it been pretty incremental bells and whistles from the likes of new players like Siglent.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2016, 10:58:29 am »
When is a scope old in this market ?, how often are new releases per brand ?

That 4-5 year mark is about right.
Rumour has it someone has a prototype scope in their lab  8)
Wouldn't be one that's already released in Asian markets, would it ?
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2016, 11:38:31 am »
So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now.  Something better will always be coming out.  The questions are:  How much better?  Do I care?  How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?

Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.

...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.

It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.

As for bandwidth - few people really need more than what is currently offered at various price points, and probing becomes a major issue above about 500MHz, so I can't see a sub $1000 1GHz Rigol happening any time soon.

I'm sure we'll see some small improvements  - higher-res/bigger screens, wifi (yawn), touchscreens, AWGs etc. trickling down to the lower end, maybe even protocol decoders as standard, but progress is pretty glacial as tech products go, mostly because the market just doesn't need much more than what's available now.

Possibly the biggest shift may be the Chinese brands taking more market share from the bigger players by offering comparable features & performance at lower cost, but they'll have to get their act together on software quality.


 
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2016, 12:09:07 pm »
Summary of the disadvantages of new or fresh adopter that I could think of :

- Possibly early firmware bugs ? and as minority, the possibilities for the manufacturer to react to fix the bug is less motivated compared to larger crowd that consistently making lots of noises and new findings.

- Possibility of annoying hardware design flaws as its early revision.

- High price as its new, and looking at the past, usually it needs 2 or 3 years for the price to drop significantly and settled down.

- Less users to share the knowledge , tips or tricks or hacks like at the forum.


Now, the real question, can you live with that ?  >:D
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 12:14:25 pm by BravoV »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2016, 01:29:53 pm »
So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now.  Something better will always be coming out.  The questions are:  How much better?  Do I care?  How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?

Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.

...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.

It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
Yeah right.  ::)

What some might call entry level and/or B class scopes already have 140 Mpts memory depth and "A" class scopes are lagging behind in this matter.  :P
10+ Mpts is now the norm for even some of the cheapest units and this is where we'll see competition in the near future.
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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2016, 02:12:42 pm »
Also, why limit to FPGAs? Do they really give more Bresenham/$ than, say, a Tegra?
 

Offline Stwspoon

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2016, 02:51:36 pm »
I went through this last summer.  Figure out what features are required and what would be nice.
My requirements were, 100MHz BW, decent user interface, Ethernet and upgradeable. I wanted small, quiet and backed by a reputable company.  I chose the  R&S HMO 1202 and am very happy with it. It came out in  the fall of 2015, so it should be around for a while.
In Electronics, like in cars, there is always something new on the horizon. Do your research and when you are ready, buy what you can get now and don't worry about the future.

Good luck,
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2016, 05:36:41 pm »
So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now.  Something better will always be coming out.  The questions are:  How much better?  Do I care?  How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?

Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.

...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.

It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
Yeah right.  ::)

What some might call entry level and/or B class scopes already have 140 Mpts memory depth and "A" class scopes are lagging behind in this matter.  :P
10+ Mpts is now the norm for even some of the cheapest units and this is where we'll see competition in the near future.
though the software with options comparable to a keysight is only found in the b-brand which software is from lecroy (and cost as much as!)
software is pretty important otherwise it would be an idiot thing to buy anything better than a crap scope (paying for more? for what? less memory and same bandwidth... and options you can't even hack for free?)
 

Online tautech

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2016, 05:41:56 pm »
So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now.  Something better will always be coming out.  The questions are:  How much better?  Do I care?  How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?

Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.

...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.

It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
Yeah right.  ::)

What some might call entry level and/or B class scopes already have 140 Mpts memory depth and "A" class scopes are lagging behind in this matter.  :P
10+ Mpts is now the norm for even some of the cheapest units and this is where we'll see competition in the near future.
though the software with options comparable to a keysight is only found in the b-brand which software is from lecroy (and cost as much as!)
software is pretty important otherwise it would be an idiot thing to buy anything better than a crap scope (paying for more? for what? less memory and same bandwidth... and options you can't even hack for free?)
Are you thinking of the rebadged SDS3000, the LeCroy WS3000 ?

I was referring to a SDS2000X, entirely Siglent designed and built.
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Online coppice

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2016, 06:38:35 pm »
Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
After a heavy initial drop in value, scopes tend to hold their value reasonably well. Talking generically about test equipment is another matter. A lot of test equipment is somewhat specialised, and its value drops to near zero when its market window passes. An extreme example would be a Bluetooth V1 test set. You can't get much for those any more, while a test set for the latest revision of Bluetooth costs a fortune.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2016, 07:44:11 pm »
Are you thinking of the rebadged SDS3000, the LeCroy WS3000 ?

I was referring to a SDS2000X, entirely Siglent designed and built.
yes i was! i wouldn't compare the sds2000x with the keysight mso3k, in terms of software and options (don't get me wrong the sds2000x is very attractive too)
 

Offline Mark

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Re: Scope : wait for new models ?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2016, 08:34:00 pm »
I do not think it is a good idea to think up excuses to wait, as you will always come up with a new excuse.  For example,
- you wait because you think a new model is just around the corner. 
- new model comes out, but it is 50% more expensive than last model, so you wait for it to come down in price. 
- prices drop a bit, but you wait because there are not very many reviews. 
- reviews appear on youtube etc, but there are a few bugs, you wait to see if they get fixed. 
- bugs get fixed but there is a rumor that another manufacturer will be launching a new scope soon - let's wait for that! 

If you need a scope now, or you could make use of a scope now, then buy it now.  If you get a good deal on a used scope or refurb I doubt you will regret it. 
 


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