Scope : wait for new models ?

[JanJansen]

The HMO1002 would not even be on my list. Small 640x480 display and the built quality isn't very good (PCB not well supported and BNCs not bolted to the chassis). At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).

Thanks, i readed your review from the GDS2204E, it says : made in Taiwan, alright.
Only it is not available at my shop, they have 17 of GW instek scopes :
http://www.reichelt.de/Oszilloskope-Spektrumanalyser/2/index.html?ACTION=2&LA=3&GROUPID=4044;SID=94V%40FZzawQATcAAFDtCS0c1897048ab83797bd2d986865e7fad1c

What has your scope better then those cheaper GW instek scopes ?
I need a logic analyzer, i gonna get started with digital stuff, it should be default without hacking, does it has all cables included ?

I need 2 channels, 4 is nicer, if it is the same product for a bit more money.

I want a function generator.

Bandwith dont realy matters to me, as long as it can handle the fastest serial communication rates.

If you are worried so much about value, buy a cheap used scope or something like a DS1054Z.

Yeah, it not for sale secondhand on marktplaats.nl or ebay.de, i also dont like those bugs and fan noise, i need silent gear without stupid bugs, i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.

Most important question:  Will the latest and greatest have to go through several firmware versions before they get the bugs out?

This is a no-win deal!  You could conceivably wait forever hoping for just one more thing!

If the hardware is the same, the firmware can be updated, i would try that if it improves alot.
With this much choise it takes years to find out what to buy, even under €1000,-
Maybe i better buy a DMM first and wait for something nice.

If you need a scope now, or you could make use of a scope now, then buy it now.  If you get a good deal on a used scope or refurb I doubt you will regret it.

Amerika is bigger and has cheaper and more second hand scopes, here totally nothing exept WW2 scopes.

[Fungus]

Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.

Sure, the real expensive stuff does that. Same goes for luxury cars.

The low end, bread and butter equipment holds its value much better though. (just like cars, really)

[MrWolf]

I need a logic analyzer, i gonna get started with digital stuff, it should be default without hacking, does it has all cables included ?

I need 2 channels, 4 is nicer, if it is the same product for a bit more money.

I want a function generator.

Bandwith dont realy matters to me, as long as it can handle the fastest serial communication rates.

Picoscope MSO models with USB 3 support.
Forget built-in func generators. They are joke compared to standalone units.
Buy Siglent SDG2042X, hack it to 120MHz, go to nice vacation with leftover money.

i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.

Thats why I recommend Pico. Scopes with knobs have nothing on Pico's SDK or insanely powerful math channels. In fact I'm currently sitting on the fence with one gamechanger feature that I managed to implement with Picos math. Cannot decide should I go commercial or just give it out. Involves page wide formulas with tens of nested math functions. Try that with you average knobbed scope...

[Fungus]

The HMO1002 would not even be on my list.

It would be on mine if I was after a two channel 'scope. Very nice firmware, small/neat design, fanless, etc. Can be upgraded later.

It's not well-featured compared to a DS1054Z but it is a nice little 'scope from a user's perspective.

At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).

And only twice the price of the HMO1002! May I suggest one for 3000 Euro as well? It will be even better!!

If you spend 1500 on options for an HMO1002 you'll get something very powerful indeed (actually you'd probably go for the HMO1202 with options if you have that much money).

[Fungus]

To answer the question: There will always be something new around the corner. Better to just buy one and accept that.

[JanJansen]

Thats why I recommend Pico. Scopes with knobs have nothing on Pico's SDK or insanely powerful math channels. In fact I'm currently sitting on the fence with one gamechanger feature that I managed to implement with Picos math. Cannot decide should I go commercial or just give it out. Involves page wide formulas with tens of nested math functions. Try that with you average knobbed scope...

I always prefer hardware over software.

[Fungus]

Thats why I recommend Pico. Scopes with knobs have nothing on Pico's SDK or insanely powerful math channels. In fact I'm currently sitting on the fence with one gamechanger feature that I managed to implement with Picos math. Cannot decide should I go commercial or just give it out. Involves page wide formulas with tens of nested math functions. Try that with you average knobbed scope...

Horses for courses. Pico is a pain in the ass for general electronics work plus it forces you to have a PC/laptop on your bench taking up space.

[NorthGuy]

Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.

[Fungus]

Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.

True.

It's easy to forget that Pico is aimed at business (eg. their special automotive versions) and are correspondingly expensive.

Savings in hardware don't equate to savings in price at Pico.

[MrWolf]

I always prefer hardware over software.

Like knobs? If we are talking processing power - standalone DSOs cannot compete with PC monster tucked under desk processing power wise. Thats why math channels are so primitive on DSOs.

Horses for courses. Pico is a pain in the ass for general electronics work plus it forces you to have a PC/laptop on your bench taking up space.

PC *on* the bench? WTF? i7 powerhouse *under* the bench. Slim-depth large LCD on the bench + small mouse + *washable* rubber keyboard that can be rolled to take no space.  If something gets damaged via soldering accident etc - throw away & replace - dirt cheap. All super compact and easy to keep clean vs big box with postcard size screen and white knobs that looks like crap soon if you do not wash hands after every "manufacturing event".

[MrWolf]

Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.

There is no comparable Rigol scope protocols decoding or math channels wise. But digital channels are only 100MHz (200MS/s) on Picos and that's probably a problem. So I will wait for their next gen. They recently updated 2xxx series, hope mid range will be updated sometime also.

[rstofer]

Yeah, it not for sale secondhand on marktplaats.nl or ebay.de, i also dont like those bugs and fan noise, i need silent gear without stupid bugs, i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.

To the best of my knowledge, the latest firmware (9/16) has corrected all of the purported bugs except for a spelling error.

The fan noise is real but not a big deal.  Fixing it is trivial with a Torx driver but there will be a little wire splicing required since the new fan won't have the proper connector.  Maybe this takes an hour to fix, working slowly, but, yes, it definitely voids the warranty.

The other 'problem' is the selection encoder.  I decided to upgrade mine to have detents.  Details abound here on EEVblog.  Desoldering the old unit is the place where the PCB can be ruined.  I have a Hakko desoldering tool that made the job simple.

Scopes vary in price from $400 for the DS1054Z to well over $100k.  You have to decide what will work for you.  I wouldn't be so fast to blow off 4 channels.  When you need them and don't have them, there is no solution.  Yes, I got along for decades with only 2 channels but, now, I don't have to!

If I were just starting out and planning to work at lower voltages, I would seriously look at the Digilent Analog Discovery.  It has a two channel scope (yes, 4 would be better), two channel arbitrary signal generator, 16 bit digital IO that can be used as a logic analyzer or pattern generator, two adjustable power supplies and some other stuff.  Yes, you need a PC to drive it but I can tell you, it works fine on a Surface Book.  I have 6 workstations within reach of my 'bench' so the PC thing is pretty well covered.  Besides, most of my projects involve FPGAs or microcontrollers so a PC is required anyway.  The compelling feature of the Analog Discovery is the price:

http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

The DS1054Z gets more use simply because it's sitting right there and turning it on doesn't take much effort.

[Fungus]

I always prefer hardware over software.

Like knobs? If we are talking processing power - standalone DSOs cannot compete with PC monster tucked under desk processing power wise. Thats why math channels are so primitive on DSOs.

Sure, but no picoscope can transfer the data to a PC in real time for processing without dropping the bandwidth to something useless.

[Fungus]

Yeah, it not for sale secondhand on marktplaats.nl or ebay.de, i also dont like those bugs and fan noise, i need silent gear without stupid bugs, i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.

To the best of my knowledge, the latest firmware (9/16) has corrected all of the purported bugs except for a spelling error.

The fan noise is real but not a big deal.  Fixing it is trivial with a Torx driver but there will be a little wire splicing required since the new fan won't have the proper connector.  Maybe this takes an hour to fix, working slowly, but, yes, it definitely voids the warranty.

This, too. Most of the exaggerated complaints people have posted here are now obsolete.

[MrWolf]

Digilent Analog Discovery

This good stuff if one does not need high bw. Something to be aware of - it has only 100MS/s digital channels. While HMO1X02 has 350MHz (*2 = 700MS/s?). If HMO really has 700MS/s it certainly wipes the floor with both Pico and Digilent...

[tszaboo]

Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.

There is no comparable Rigol scope protocols decoding or math channels wise. But digital channels are only 100MHz (200MS/s) on Picos and that's probably a problem. So I will wait for their next gen. They recently updated 2xxx series, hope mid range will be updated sometime also.

I never use math function on a scope. Why would I? They are pretty useless.
On the other hand, I use the screen on the scope. Or the buttons. Or the knobs.

I dont think there will be any significant change on the scope market in the upcoming few years. Sure, some more memory, some extra bandwidth, but is there going to be anything, like: Oh, I cannot work without that function? Probably not. You might regret your purchase when the new model comes out, but deep you will know, that you dont need that new model. Also, buy an Agilent now, before they change the color to black, or they change the name of the company again.

[JanJansen]

To the best of my knowledge, the latest firmware (9/16) has corrected all of the purported bugs except for a spelling error.

The fan noise is real but not a big deal.  Fixing it is trivial with a Torx driver but there will be a little wire splicing required since the new fan won't have the proper connector.  Maybe this takes an hour to fix, working slowly, but, yes, it definitely voids the warranty.

The other 'problem' is the selection encoder.  I decided to upgrade mine to have detents.  Details abound here on EEVblog.  Desoldering the old unit is the place where the PCB can be ruined.  I have a Hakko desoldering tool that made the job simple.

Good to know those bugs are solved, only no thanks, i dont wanto solder my new scope.

http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

Like knobs? If we are talking processing power - standalone DSOs cannot compete with PC monster tucked under desk processing power wise. Thats why math channels are so primitive on DSOs.

I like knobs yes, more i dont trust software since it becomes incompatible and problems, then whos fault is it ?
Also i dont see reason for math, i wanto look at my audio, and look at digital communication stuff.

With the Hameg HMO 1002 you have to buy the extra cable for the logic analizer, that also cost much.
Can i get a cheap cable for that somewhere ?, else the Hameg will also be to expensive, more then €1000,-

With a Vertical Resolution of 8 bit, the screen size dont matters.
Do i need a scope with better Vertical Resolution for zooming ?, how many bit has the Hameg ?,
also not all scopes show how many bits Vertical Resolution they have.

Also with the GW instek there is something like : OpenWave-Software.
I dont wanto install any garbage on my computer, i need regular files that i can open with default software.

[MrWolf]

Sure, but no picoscope can transfer the data to a PC in real time for processing without dropping the bandwidth to something useless.

Please describe use case where that is a problem? Human-knobbed_DSO interface is about 1Hz at best (pressing knobs etc). If we are talking about machine UI then 3000 does 125 MS/s over USB 3. Name cheapest knobbed DSO that can do that? Otherwise it comes down to screen refresh rate which tops at about 50Hz for humans. That goes over USB no problem.

[MrWolf]

I never use math function on a scope. Why would I? They are pretty useless.

  On a knobbed DSO yes. A*B probably would be used at most...
Otherwise it's sort of "640K is more memory than anyone will ever need." statement. But it's a steep curve for going +-*/ to real signal analysis, no argument there... Took me years.

[JanJansen]

No fighting please.

[MrWolf]

No fighting please.

Whos fighting? Just some "arguments" against non-knobbed DSOs seems to come from WWII period or something.
But actually I post because I forgot one thing:
"i wanto look at my audio".
How you plan to do it on a 8bit scope? Then it's Digilent or high-precision Pico model, end of story.

[JanJansen]

But actually I post because I forgot one thing:
"i wanto look at my audio".
How you plan to do it on a 8bit scope? Then it's Digilent or high-precision Pico model, end of story.

Tell me more, what do you mean, i dont know much about digital scopes, i use analog scope currently.

[Fungus]

i wanto look at my audio, and look at digital communication stuff.

With the Hameg HMO 1002 you have to buy the extra cable for the logic analizer, that also cost much.
Can i get a cheap cable for that somewhere ?, else the Hameg will also be to expensive, more then €1000,-

If you want "digital communication stuff" and €1000 is expensive then you only have one choice: The DS1054Z.

Look on the bright side though: You just saved a load of money by buying a €400 'scope instead of an €800+ 'scope
and you got 100MHz bandwidth with 4 channels.   

[MrWolf]

Tell me more, what do you mean, i dont know much about digital scopes, i use analog scope currently.

Well lucky you. Just image going from Lotuse Elise to some city car with early gen electric power steering (if you know about cars). If not imagine vinyl vs 32kbit mp3. Having only 8bits rises noise floor massively disregarding analog front end quality, ideal(!) dynamic range 48dB max. If you mean by audio actual audio not some "consumer level" stuff it's 12bits mimum you need. Look some app notes and stuff:

https://www.picotech.com/library/application-note/highresolution-oscilloscopes

and this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fft-spectrum-analysis-reviewed/

[Fungus]

Having only 8bits rises noise floor massively disregarding analog front end quality

No it doesn't. The analog 'scope has the same noise floor, it just doesn't show it on screen.