EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: JanJansen on December 06, 2016, 04:25:34 pm
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Hi, i,m looking into buying a scope.
Suppose a scope is already 4 years on the market, would you still buy it and risk a better model will be released soon ?,
with a multimeter i think it dont matters very much, with a scope is a different story, technology goes fast, bigger screens, more bitrate, more CPU.
When is a scope old in this market ?, how often are new releases per brand ?
greetings
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The same question can be asked about cars.
But that's the wrong question. Better questions are
- what are my problems where I will use a scope?,
- what features do I need to accomplish the job, and what features would I like to have?,
- is scope X sufficient to do the job?
- can I do the job without a scope, or is there a better tool?
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It depends on the manufacturer. Keysight DSOX2000 / DSOX3000 are 6 years old and Tektronix MSO2000B is about 9 years old and no new model is coming AFAIK.
But you might wait till february 2017 or so. New scopes are often released at this part of a year.
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Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
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HD screen, memory size, memory bitrate, CPU speed, HDMI output instead of VGA, many things can be upgraded,
not that i realy need all that, if i wait a while, i will have all that for the same price as now, only how long is the question.
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Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.
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Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.
The OP asked about new model intervals, not market value depreciation.
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That is about the same, when a new model comes out, nobody wants the old model, so its worth nothing anymore compared to new price.
I have these pioneer CDJ cd players, i bought them just before they released a USB cd player, that aint going to happen to me this time with my scope money.
I am looking for buying the R&S Hameg HMO 1002.
Ofcourse if it is a good product, it wont need replacing, good brands dont replace often.
On the other hand, technology goes very fast, and releasing new stuff sells more.
I would buy the HMO 1002 right now if i had the money, since i dont think they will discontinue this one very fast because it is a good brand.
So its very double, i can spend my money only once, meanwhile i still use my old phillips scope, only its drifting with high frequencys, and getting vague.
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The HMO1002 would not even be on my list. Small 640x480 display and the built quality isn't very good (PCB not well supported and BNCs not bolted to the chassis). At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).
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That is about the same, when a new model comes out, nobody wants the old model, so its worth nothing anymore compared to new price.
I have these pioneer CDJ cd players, i bought them just before they released a USB cd player, that aint going to happen to me this time with my scope money.
You are comparing a complete paradigm change in storage medium, to digital storage scope. Its not going to happen any time soon.
HMO1002 50MHz - $975
HMO1002 100MHz - $1250
Its not that expensive, but 2Mpts memory, 1Gsps, 10kwfm is disappointing. DS2072a can be had for $840, 2GSps, 14Mpts memory, 50kwfm, and that is before any hacks.
2072 is starting to get older at this point, but its just demonstrating the poor value of the hameg.
If you are worried so much about value, buy a cheap used scope or something like a DS1054Z. Even if something new comes out, the drop in value will be minimal.
For LA, get a USB LA if needed.
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If all the manufacturers got together and said, "OK, we're all going to release our next products on <insert date here>!". Great, wait a few weeks after the date and make a choice.
They can't do that! Probably by law!
So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now. Something better will always be coming out. The questions are: How much better? Do I care? How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?
Most important question: Will the latest and greatest have to go through several firmware versions before they get the bugs out?
This is a no-win deal! You could conceivably wait forever hoping for just one more thing!
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When is a scope old in this market ?, how often are new releases per brand ?
That 4-5 year mark is about right.
Rumour has it someone has a prototype scope in their lab 8)
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Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.
There is an initial drop of course, but what I think Mike is saying there is once that happens they do hold that value for a long time. At least the good models do, there are some dogs that don't.
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So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now. Something better will always be coming out. The questions are: How much better? Do I care? How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?
Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.
Apart from that it been pretty incremental bells and whistles from the likes of new players like Siglent.
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When is a scope old in this market ?, how often are new releases per brand ?
That 4-5 year mark is about right.
Rumour has it someone has a prototype scope in their lab 8)
Wouldn't be one that's already released in Asian markets, would it ?
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So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now. Something better will always be coming out. The questions are: How much better? Do I care? How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?
Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.
...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.
It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
As for bandwidth - few people really need more than what is currently offered at various price points, and probing becomes a major issue above about 500MHz, so I can't see a sub $1000 1GHz Rigol happening any time soon.
I'm sure we'll see some small improvements - higher-res/bigger screens, wifi (yawn), touchscreens, AWGs etc. trickling down to the lower end, maybe even protocol decoders as standard, but progress is pretty glacial as tech products go, mostly because the market just doesn't need much more than what's available now.
Possibly the biggest shift may be the Chinese brands taking more market share from the bigger players by offering comparable features & performance at lower cost, but they'll have to get their act together on software quality.
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Summary of the disadvantages of new or fresh adopter that I could think of :
- Possibly early firmware bugs ? and as minority, the possibilities for the manufacturer to react to fix the bug is less motivated compared to larger crowd that consistently making lots of noises and new findings.
- Possibility of annoying hardware design flaws as its early revision.
- High price as its new, and looking at the past, usually it needs 2 or 3 years for the price to drop significantly and settled down.
- Less users to share the knowledge , tips or tricks or hacks like at the forum.
Now, the real question, can you live with that ? >:D
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So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now. Something better will always be coming out. The questions are: How much better? Do I care? How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?
Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.
...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.
It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
Yeah right. ::)
What some might call entry level and/or B class scopes already have 140 Mpts memory depth and "A" class scopes are lagging behind in this matter. :P
10+ Mpts is now the norm for even some of the cheapest units and this is where we'll see competition in the near future.
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Also, why limit to FPGAs? Do they really give more Bresenham/$ than, say, a Tegra?
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I went through this last summer. Figure out what features are required and what would be nice.
My requirements were, 100MHz BW, decent user interface, Ethernet and upgradeable. I wanted small, quiet and backed by a reputable company. I chose the R&S HMO 1202 and am very happy with it. It came out in the fall of 2015, so it should be around for a while.
In Electronics, like in cars, there is always something new on the horizon. Do your research and when you are ready, buy what you can get now and don't worry about the future.
Good luck,
Stan
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So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now. Something better will always be coming out. The questions are: How much better? Do I care? How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?
Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.
...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.
It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
Yeah right. ::)
What some might call entry level and/or B class scopes already have 140 Mpts memory depth and "A" class scopes are lagging behind in this matter. :P
10+ Mpts is now the norm for even some of the cheapest units and this is where we'll see competition in the near future.
though the software with options comparable to a keysight is only found in the b-brand which software is from lecroy (and cost as much as!)
software is pretty important otherwise it would be an idiot thing to buy anything better than a crap scope (paying for more? for what? less memory and same bandwidth... and options you can't even hack for free?)
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So, drive a stake in the ground and make a choice from what you see here and now. Something better will always be coming out. The questions are: How much better? Do I care? How long should I do without waiting for the wonderful thing they haven't even designed yet?
Well looking at the last 10 years say, there have probably only been a few major advancements:
- Rigol DS1054 set the original $800 benchmark for a full featured tiny DSO (then halved that to $400)
- Agilent/Keysight X-series with the high update rate focus and built in function gen
- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.
...and intensity displays becoming a pretty standard feature, even at the lower end.
It's hard to see anything radical coming any time soon - although RAM is getting faster & cheaper, as mentioned in the Amp Hour with the Chronos camera, it's quite expensive to control fast memory (e.g. DDR3) from an FPGA, and only the likes of Keysight can afford to invest in the custom silicon which might be a way round that.
Yeah right. ::)
What some might call entry level and/or B class scopes already have 140 Mpts memory depth and "A" class scopes are lagging behind in this matter. :P
10+ Mpts is now the norm for even some of the cheapest units and this is where we'll see competition in the near future.
though the software with options comparable to a keysight is only found in the b-brand which software is from lecroy (and cost as much as!)
software is pretty important otherwise it would be an idiot thing to buy anything better than a crap scope (paying for more? for what? less memory and same bandwidth... and options you can't even hack for free?)
Are you thinking of the rebadged SDS3000, the LeCroy WS3000 ?
I was referring to a SDS2000X, entirely Siglent designed and built.
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Tech in scopes,and testgear in general moves way more slowly than other tech fields - I woudn't expect to see anything major happenning.
And don't forget testgear tends to hold value fairly well.
After a heavy initial drop in value, scopes tend to hold their value reasonably well. Talking generically about test equipment is another matter. A lot of test equipment is somewhat specialised, and its value drops to near zero when its market window passes. An extreme example would be a Bluetooth V1 test set. You can't get much for those any more, while a test set for the latest revision of Bluetooth costs a fortune.
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Are you thinking of the rebadged SDS3000, the LeCroy WS3000 ?
I was referring to a SDS2000X, entirely Siglent designed and built.
yes i was! i wouldn't compare the sds2000x with the keysight mso3k, in terms of software and options (don't get me wrong the sds2000x is very attractive too)
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I do not think it is a good idea to think up excuses to wait, as you will always come up with a new excuse. For example,
- you wait because you think a new model is just around the corner.
- new model comes out, but it is 50% more expensive than last model, so you wait for it to come down in price.
- prices drop a bit, but you wait because there are not very many reviews.
- reviews appear on youtube etc, but there are a few bugs, you wait to see if they get fixed.
- bugs get fixed but there is a rumor that another manufacturer will be launching a new scope soon - let's wait for that!
If you need a scope now, or you could make use of a scope now, then buy it now. If you get a good deal on a used scope or refurb I doubt you will regret it.
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The HMO1002 would not even be on my list. Small 640x480 display and the built quality isn't very good (PCB not well supported and BNCs not bolted to the chassis). At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).
Thanks, i readed your review from the GDS2204E, it says : made in Taiwan, alright.
Only it is not available at my shop, they have 17 of GW instek scopes :
http://www.reichelt.de/Oszilloskope-Spektrumanalyser/2/index.html?ACTION=2&LA=3&GROUPID=4044;SID=94V%40FZzawQATcAAFDtCS0c1897048ab83797bd2d986865e7fad1c (http://www.reichelt.de/Oszilloskope-Spektrumanalyser/2/index.html?ACTION=2&LA=3&GROUPID=4044;SID=94V%40FZzawQATcAAFDtCS0c1897048ab83797bd2d986865e7fad1c)
What has your scope better then those cheaper GW instek scopes ?
I need a logic analyzer, i gonna get started with digital stuff, it should be default without hacking, does it has all cables included ?
I need 2 channels, 4 is nicer, if it is the same product for a bit more money.
I want a function generator.
Bandwith dont realy matters to me, as long as it can handle the fastest serial communication rates.
If you are worried so much about value, buy a cheap used scope or something like a DS1054Z.
Yeah, it not for sale secondhand on marktplaats.nl or ebay.de, i also dont like those bugs and fan noise, i need silent gear without stupid bugs, i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.
Most important question: Will the latest and greatest have to go through several firmware versions before they get the bugs out?
This is a no-win deal! You could conceivably wait forever hoping for just one more thing!
If the hardware is the same, the firmware can be updated, i would try that if it improves alot.
With this much choise it takes years to find out what to buy, even under €1000,-
Maybe i better buy a DMM first and wait for something nice.
If you need a scope now, or you could make use of a scope now, then buy it now. If you get a good deal on a used scope or refurb I doubt you will regret it.
Amerika is bigger and has cheaper and more second hand scopes, here totally nothing exept WW2 scopes.
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Say again? Test equipment depreciates faster than a car! Just go on Ebay and see what kind of equipment you can buy for pennies on the dollar! Also look at what price the winners of Keysight scopes sold their brand new scopes for.
Sure, the real expensive stuff does that. Same goes for luxury cars.
The low end, bread and butter equipment holds its value much better though. (just like cars, really)
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I need a logic analyzer, i gonna get started with digital stuff, it should be default without hacking, does it has all cables included ?
I need 2 channels, 4 is nicer, if it is the same product for a bit more money.
I want a function generator.
Bandwith dont realy matters to me, as long as it can handle the fastest serial communication rates.
Picoscope MSO models with USB 3 support.
Forget built-in func generators. They are joke compared to standalone units.
Buy Siglent SDG2042X, hack it to 120MHz, go to nice vacation with leftover money.
i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.
Thats why I recommend Pico. Scopes with knobs have nothing on Pico's SDK or insanely powerful math channels. In fact I'm currently sitting on the fence with one gamechanger feature that I managed to implement with Picos math. Cannot decide should I go commercial or just give it out. Involves page wide formulas with tens of nested math functions. Try that with you average knobbed scope...
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The HMO1002 would not even be on my list.
It would be on mine if I was after a two channel 'scope. Very nice firmware, small/neat design, fanless, etc. Can be upgraded later.
It's not well-featured compared to a DS1054Z but it is a nice little 'scope from a user's perspective.
At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).
And only twice the price of the HMO1002! May I suggest one for 3000 Euro as well? It will be even better!! :-//
If you spend 1500 on options for an HMO1002 you'll get something very powerful indeed (actually you'd probably go for the HMO1202 with options if you have that much money).
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To answer the question: There will always be something new around the corner. Better to just buy one and accept that.
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Thats why I recommend Pico. Scopes with knobs have nothing on Pico's SDK or insanely powerful math channels. In fact I'm currently sitting on the fence with one gamechanger feature that I managed to implement with Picos math. Cannot decide should I go commercial or just give it out. Involves page wide formulas with tens of nested math functions. Try that with you average knobbed scope...
I always prefer hardware over software.
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Thats why I recommend Pico. Scopes with knobs have nothing on Pico's SDK or insanely powerful math channels. In fact I'm currently sitting on the fence with one gamechanger feature that I managed to implement with Picos math. Cannot decide should I go commercial or just give it out. Involves page wide formulas with tens of nested math functions. Try that with you average knobbed scope...
Horses for courses. Pico is a pain in the ass for general electronics work plus it forces you to have a PC/laptop on your bench taking up space.
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Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.
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Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.
True.
It's easy to forget that Pico is aimed at business (eg. their special automotive versions) and are correspondingly expensive.
Savings in hardware don't equate to savings in price at Pico.
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I always prefer hardware over software.
Like knobs? If we are talking processing power - standalone DSOs cannot compete with PC monster tucked under desk processing power wise. Thats why math channels are so primitive on DSOs.
Horses for courses. Pico is a pain in the ass for general electronics work plus it forces you to have a PC/laptop on your bench taking up space.
PC *on* the bench? WTF? i7 powerhouse *under* the bench. Slim-depth large LCD on the bench + small mouse + *washable* rubber keyboard that can be rolled to take no space. If something gets damaged via soldering accident etc - throw away & replace - dirt cheap. All super compact and easy to keep clean vs big box with postcard size screen and white knobs that looks like crap soon if you do not wash hands after every "manufacturing event".
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Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.
There is no comparable Rigol scope protocols decoding or math channels wise. But digital channels are only 100MHz (200MS/s) on Picos and that's probably a problem. So I will wait for their next gen. They recently updated 2xxx series, hope mid range will be updated sometime also.
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Yeah, it not for sale secondhand on marktplaats.nl or ebay.de, i also dont like those bugs and fan noise, i need silent gear without stupid bugs, i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.
To the best of my knowledge, the latest firmware (9/16) has corrected all of the purported bugs except for a spelling error.
The fan noise is real but not a big deal. Fixing it is trivial with a Torx driver but there will be a little wire splicing required since the new fan won't have the proper connector. Maybe this takes an hour to fix, working slowly, but, yes, it definitely voids the warranty.
The other 'problem' is the selection encoder. I decided to upgrade mine to have detents. Details abound here on EEVblog. Desoldering the old unit is the place where the PCB can be ruined. I have a Hakko desoldering tool that made the job simple.
Scopes vary in price from $400 for the DS1054Z to well over $100k. You have to decide what will work for you. I wouldn't be so fast to blow off 4 channels. When you need them and don't have them, there is no solution. Yes, I got along for decades with only 2 channels but, now, I don't have to!
If I were just starting out and planning to work at lower voltages, I would seriously look at the Digilent Analog Discovery. It has a two channel scope (yes, 4 would be better), two channel arbitrary signal generator, 16 bit digital IO that can be used as a logic analyzer or pattern generator, two adjustable power supplies and some other stuff. Yes, you need a PC to drive it but I can tell you, it works fine on a Surface Book. I have 6 workstations within reach of my 'bench' so the PC thing is pretty well covered. Besides, most of my projects involve FPGAs or microcontrollers so a PC is required anyway. The compelling feature of the Analog Discovery is the price:
http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/ (http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/)
The DS1054Z gets more use simply because it's sitting right there and turning it on doesn't take much effort.
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I always prefer hardware over software.
Like knobs? If we are talking processing power - standalone DSOs cannot compete with PC monster tucked under desk processing power wise. Thats why math channels are so primitive on DSOs.
Sure, but no picoscope can transfer the data to a PC in real time for processing without dropping the bandwidth to something useless.
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Yeah, it not for sale secondhand on marktplaats.nl or ebay.de, i also dont like those bugs and fan noise, i need silent gear without stupid bugs, i,m a programmer myself and get frustrated with stuff i could have done better.
To the best of my knowledge, the latest firmware (9/16) has corrected all of the purported bugs except for a spelling error.
The fan noise is real but not a big deal. Fixing it is trivial with a Torx driver but there will be a little wire splicing required since the new fan won't have the proper connector. Maybe this takes an hour to fix, working slowly, but, yes, it definitely voids the warranty.
This, too. Most of the exaggerated complaints people have posted here are now obsolete.
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Digilent Analog Discovery
This good stuff if one does not need high bw. Something to be aware of - it has only 100MS/s digital channels. While HMO1X02 has 350MHz (*2 = 700MS/s?). If HMO really has 700MS/s it certainly wipes the floor with both Pico and Digilent...
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Pico is 2-3 times more expensive than comparable Rigol scopes.
There is no comparable Rigol scope protocols decoding or math channels wise. But digital channels are only 100MHz (200MS/s) on Picos and that's probably a problem. So I will wait for their next gen. They recently updated 2xxx series, hope mid range will be updated sometime also.
I never use math function on a scope. Why would I? They are pretty useless.
On the other hand, I use the screen on the scope. Or the buttons. Or the knobs.
I dont think there will be any significant change on the scope market in the upcoming few years. Sure, some more memory, some extra bandwidth, but is there going to be anything, like: Oh, I cannot work without that function? Probably not. You might regret your purchase when the new model comes out, but deep you will know, that you dont need that new model. Also, buy an Agilent now, before they change the color to black, or they change the name of the company again.
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To the best of my knowledge, the latest firmware (9/16) has corrected all of the purported bugs except for a spelling error.
The fan noise is real but not a big deal. Fixing it is trivial with a Torx driver but there will be a little wire splicing required since the new fan won't have the proper connector. Maybe this takes an hour to fix, working slowly, but, yes, it definitely voids the warranty.
The other 'problem' is the selection encoder. I decided to upgrade mine to have detents. Details abound here on EEVblog. Desoldering the old unit is the place where the PCB can be ruined. I have a Hakko desoldering tool that made the job simple.
Good to know those bugs are solved, only no thanks, i dont wanto solder my new scope.
http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/ (http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/)
Like knobs? If we are talking processing power - standalone DSOs cannot compete with PC monster tucked under desk processing power wise. Thats why math channels are so primitive on DSOs.
I like knobs yes, more i dont trust software since it becomes incompatible and problems, then whos fault is it ?
Also i dont see reason for math, i wanto look at my audio, and look at digital communication stuff.
With the Hameg HMO 1002 you have to buy the extra cable for the logic analizer, that also cost much.
Can i get a cheap cable for that somewhere ?, else the Hameg will also be to expensive, more then €1000,-
With a Vertical Resolution of 8 bit, the screen size dont matters.
Do i need a scope with better Vertical Resolution for zooming ?, how many bit has the Hameg ?,
also not all scopes show how many bits Vertical Resolution they have.
Also with the GW instek there is something like : OpenWave-Software.
I dont wanto install any garbage on my computer, i need regular files that i can open with default software.
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Sure, but no picoscope can transfer the data to a PC in real time for processing without dropping the bandwidth to something useless.
Please describe use case where that is a problem? Human-knobbed_DSO interface is about 1Hz at best (pressing knobs etc). If we are talking about machine UI then 3000 does 125 MS/s over USB 3. Name cheapest knobbed DSO that can do that? Otherwise it comes down to screen refresh rate which tops at about 50Hz for humans. That goes over USB no problem.
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I never use math function on a scope. Why would I? They are pretty useless.
:-DD On a knobbed DSO yes. A*B probably would be used at most...
Otherwise it's sort of "640K is more memory than anyone will ever need." statement. But it's a steep curve for going +-*/ to real signal analysis, no argument there... Took me years.
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No fighting please.
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No fighting please.
Whos fighting? Just some "arguments" against non-knobbed DSOs seems to come from WWII period or something.
But actually I post because I forgot one thing:
"i wanto look at my audio".
How you plan to do it on a 8bit scope? Then it's Digilent or high-precision Pico model, end of story.
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But actually I post because I forgot one thing:
"i wanto look at my audio".
How you plan to do it on a 8bit scope? Then it's Digilent or high-precision Pico model, end of story.
Tell me more, what do you mean, i dont know much about digital scopes, i use analog scope currently.
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i wanto look at my audio, and look at digital communication stuff.
With the Hameg HMO 1002 you have to buy the extra cable for the logic analizer, that also cost much.
Can i get a cheap cable for that somewhere ?, else the Hameg will also be to expensive, more then €1000,-
If you want "digital communication stuff" and €1000 is expensive then you only have one choice: The DS1054Z.
Look on the bright side though: You just saved a load of money by buying a €400 'scope instead of an €800+ 'scope
and you got 100MHz bandwidth with 4 channels. :)
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Tell me more, what do you mean, i dont know much about digital scopes, i use analog scope currently.
Well lucky you. Just image going from Lotuse Elise to some city car with early gen electric power steering (if you know about cars). If not imagine vinyl vs 32kbit mp3. Having only 8bits rises noise floor massively disregarding analog front end quality, ideal(!) dynamic range 48dB max. If you mean by audio actual audio not some "consumer level" stuff it's 12bits mimum you need. Look some app notes and stuff:
https://www.picotech.com/library/application-note/highresolution-oscilloscopes (https://www.picotech.com/library/application-note/highresolution-oscilloscopes)
and this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fft-spectrum-analysis-reviewed/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fft-spectrum-analysis-reviewed/)
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Having only 8bits rises noise floor massively disregarding analog front end quality
No it doesn't. The analog 'scope has the same noise floor, it just doesn't show it on screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk)
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you got 100MHz bandwidth with 4 channels. :)
Yup, also you get near-useless-at-100MHz min 5ns timebase, and no proper ETS (which would enable sub-nanosecond resolution on repetitive signals). :popcorn:
Think they crippled the thing on purpose with that timebase stuff as a hint that it's their basic scope.
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If you have decided there are other places to buy in the EU or NL for example
https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-2204e.html (https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-2204e.html) [ its seems in stock]
http://www.gwinstek.com/en-GB/Page/where_to_buy (http://www.gwinstek.com/en-GB/Page/where_to_buy)
The HMO1002 would not even be on my list. Small 640x480 display and the built quality isn't very good (PCB not well supported and BNCs not bolted to the chassis). At this moment the best value for money in the 1000 to 1500 euro segment is the GW Instek GDS2204E (which has a 'lifetime' factory warranty until after 5 years they stop producing the particular model!).
Thanks, i readed your review from the GDS2204E, it says : made in Taiwan, alright.
Only it is not available at my shop, they have 17 of GW instek scopes :
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No it doesn't. The analog 'scope has the same noise floor, it just doesn't show it on screen.
:palm:
LeCroy WaveAce 102 50dB (approx)
PicoScope 5244B 68dB (8 bit mode)
PicoScope 5244B 78dB (16 bit mode)
PicoScope 4262 93dB (16 bit)
I would dot dare to event think what is DS1054Z dynamic range, if it even has one :D
PS. I do not hate my DS1054Z, it looks very professional. Guests are always impressed when I show my EE corner now. They weren't when I had only small blue Pico soapboxes :P
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Think they crippled the thing on purpose with that timebase stuff as a hint that it's their basic scope.
That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
Not true, it's a competitive market.
You want a better 'scope? Pay more money. It's not a difficult concept.
You want a better all-round 'scope than an unlocked DS1054Z, without paying more than 1000 Euros? Not gonna happen.
If you really, really need a good FFT or something then yes, there's better 'scopes under 1000 Euros but you'll give up a lot of other things to get that particular feature (channels, bandwidth, decoders, etc.)
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
:-// Possibly you already live in our bright socialist future. I still have to deal with capitalism. *Everything* is crippled compared to what it could be if company wants to stay in business for any amount of time and has any say on the market. Look up why incandescent lightbulbs are programmed to fail and how industry achieved anyone not producing eternal bulb.
You want a better all-round 'scope than an unlocked DS1054Z,
Dude want to do audio, let's have some compassion shall we. Audio has nothing to do with 8 bit scopes unless its 5EUR Velleman amp kit :scared:
But ok, I bail out. It's not my fight... Unless Pico sends me 6000 anytime soon, then it :box: time.
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
May not apply to ford fiesta but there are cars that are exactly the same, mechanically speaking, between engine hp variants. they are only limited in software
pico is much much better at 1k. physical knobs are overrated
@MrWolf i did try the new beta today of the software. impressive
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
May not apply to ford fiesta but there are cars that are exactly the same, mechanically speaking, between engine hp variants. they are only limited in software
Will Ford let you unlock more horsepower?
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test gear on ebay is now getting expensive 2 or 3 years back i got a used fluke 123 for 100 pounds now that same scope is being sold at around 4 to 5 times this price. I think mike is right test gear holds it value depending on what it is.
Tektronix, Agilent, HP, fluke do not sell for penny thats a pipe dream. Unless you are buying damaged or faulty test gear you can get them cheap in this case I agree but that can also be a risk with test gear as they tend to use custom integrated circuits.
I have seen people buying spectrum analyzers and network analyzers off eBay that are not guaranteed to work, being sold for well over 400 pounds that a lot of money to gamble and definitely not pennies.
With sites like this it can only help people become more interested in electronics and an increased interest in people buying used test gear and as a consequence an increase in cost of used test gear.
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
May not apply to ford fiesta but there are cars that are exactly the same, mechanically speaking, between engine hp variants. they are only limited in software
Will Ford let you unlock more horsepower?
Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat does!
http://artofgears.com/2015/11/10/this-is-why-the-srt-hellcat-has-two-keys/ (http://artofgears.com/2015/11/10/this-is-why-the-srt-hellcat-has-two-keys/)
Just saying...
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test gear on ebay is now getting expensive 2 or 3 years back i got a used fluke 123 for 100 pounds now that same scope is being sold at around 4 to 5 times this price. I think mike is right test gear holds it value depending on what it is.
It could also be that fewer businesses are failing in the somewhat improved economy. Possibly less equipment is being auctioned off. Still, there's a lot of used equipment in the pipeline.
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
May not apply to ford fiesta but there are cars that are exactly the same, mechanically speaking, between engine hp variants. they are only limited in software
Will Ford let you unlock more horsepower?
Re-chip or re-map capabilities are available for nearly all variants of ECU's these days IF you know where to go.
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Yup, also you get near-useless-at-100MHz min 5ns timebase, and no proper ETS (which would enable sub-nanosecond resolution on repetitive signals). :popcorn:
Think they crippled the thing on purpose with that timebase stuff as a hint that it's their basic scope.
Not relevant for OP.
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Not relevant for OP.
Proper ETS is always relevant.
But on the other hand indeed, OP has do really decide his BW requirements. If Digilent's 30MHz analog and 100MS/s (50MHz?) digital are enough then it has some killer features for the price: 2CH 14bit in, 2CH 14bit out, 16ch analyzer and 16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s) that suddenly got me all sweaty and wanting to buy the damn thing (so far I've used Arduinos for patterns).
Much more complex choice with Pico because they do not have >8bit MSO (do have >8bit 4ch). However reading the FFT thread - 8bit Pico seems to operate pretty much at theoretical limit so 2206B MSO at 559€ might do the trick (50MHz, 1GS/s, 32MS memory, 16ch digital 100 MHz (200 Mb/s) and >52dB SDFR @ 100kHz) ...depending on what OP means by audio. For example my good friend means gold vinyl needles made in Japan couple K€ a pop...
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Picotech has several models with 12 and 16 bit res (5-20 MHz bandwidth) and 5000 series that has configurable resolution up to 16 bit and up to 200MHz bandwidth...
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Picotech has several models with 12 and 16 bit res (5-20 MHz bandwidth) and 5000 series that has configurable resolution up to 16 bit and up to 200MHz bandwidth...
Yea but none has 16ch digital connector...
Edit: None of the 12+ bit ones. 8 bit Pico MSOs of course have it :D 12+ bit high BW MSO would be good stuff to wait for in small 4 digit price range...
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Picotech has several models with 12 and 16 bit res (5-20 MHz bandwidth) and 5000 series that has configurable resolution up to 16 bit and up to 200MHz bandwidth...
Yea but none has 16ch digital connector...
You mean like this ?
(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/SDS2000X/SPL2016-3.2.png)
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1542&id=1488&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1542&id=1488&tid=1&T=2)
Or this for the SDS1kX+
(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/Accessories/SDS/SPL1016(3).jpg)
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You mean like this ?
With Pico box in the middle is a bit bigger ::)
(http://codeandlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/picoscope-mso-178x300.jpg)
Pic is from good review btw:
http://codeandlife.com/2016/05/29/picoscope-2208b-mso-review/ (http://codeandlife.com/2016/05/29/picoscope-2208b-mso-review/)
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You mean like this ?
(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/SDS2000X/SPL2016-3.2.png)
I wonder if it is the same probe-to-scope connector as in Rigol DS2000A?
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
May not apply to ford fiesta but there are cars that are exactly the same, mechanically speaking, between engine hp variants. they are only limited in software
Will Ford let you unlock more horsepower?
Re-chip or re-map capabilities are available for nearly all variants of ECU's these days IF you know where to go.
but then you loose warranty and if they catch you -if you don't re-map to original before an inspection for example- it can be big trouble in some countries (like here for example)
(wow i like the parallels :) )
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That's like saying that Ford Fiestas are deliberately crippled compared to the high end models.
May not apply to ford fiesta but there are cars that are exactly the same, mechanically speaking, between engine hp variants. they are only limited in software
Will Ford let you unlock more horsepower?
Re-chip or re-map capabilities are available for nearly all variants of ECU's these days IF you know where to go.
but then you loose warranty and if they catch you -if you don't re-map to original before an inspection for example- it can be big trouble in some countries (like here for example)
(wow i like the parallels :) )
That's not always the case, a mate has just had his Ford Ranger (Iveco 5 cyl TDI) remapped to Stage 1 (of 3) and it still has factory warranty so his local Ford agent says.
He reckons it goes like a cut cat now. :scared:
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That's not always the case, a mate has just had his Ford Ranger (Iveco 5 cyl TDI) remapped to Stage 1 (of 3) and it still has factory warranty so his local Ford agent says.
Suuuuure... right up until it needs some engine work under warranty.
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Suuuuure... right up until it needs some engine work under warranty.
Well it all depends... Sometimes dealer sees chipping or track use as sort of advertising and its all ok. I had very fast car once. Dealers engineer did even visit track events with me to keep an eye on the tech :)
Some cars seem to be underpowered and "undertuned" for specific reason to grow tuning industry around them. Toyota GT86 / Subaru BRZ for example.
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...but then you loose warranty and if they catch you -if you don't re-map to original before an inspection for example- it can be big trouble in some countries (like here for example)
(wow i like the parallels :) )
Yes, before the inspection you need to remap to original and install the non gutted catalytic converter. Most testers require it.
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- Rigol DS1054Z set the 4 channel $400 benchmark.
Apart from that it been pretty incremental bells and whistles from the likes of new players like Siglent.
The Rigol ds1054z cost €333,02 at eleshop, very attractive price for 4 channels.
They also have Siglent, what is the best choise from Siglent ?, do they also have that fan noise ?, is Siglent a better brand to buy then Rigol ?
This is gonna save me alot of money buying Rigol or Siglent.
edit : i already see in the movie it makes less noise : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUz3KYp_5Tc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUz3KYp_5Tc)
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get a CRO
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edit : i already see in the movie it makes less noise :
If 'noise' is what you care most about then get the R&S. It's fanless.
Next: Figure out some other way to do serial decoding.
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get a CRO
OP already has a cro.
Proper ETS is always relevant.
But on the other hand indeed, OP has do really decide his BW requirements. If Digilent's 30MHz analog and 100MS/s (50MHz?) digital are enough then it has some killer features for the price: 2CH 14bit in, 2CH 14bit out, 16ch analyzer and 16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s) that suddenly got me all sweaty and wanting to buy the damn thing (so far I've used Arduinos for patterns).
Much more complex choice with Pico because they do not have >8bit MSO (do have >8bit 4ch). However reading the FFT thread - 8bit Pico seems to operate pretty much at theoretical limit so 2206B MSO at 559€ might do the trick (50MHz, 1GS/s, 32MS memory, 16ch digital 100 MHz (200 Mb/s) and >52dB SDFR @ 100kHz) ...depending on what OP means by audio. For example my good friend means gold vinyl needles made in Japan couple K€ a pop...
I don't feel its relevant, you can see Wuerstchenhund's posts with more knowledgeable opinions than me (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/modern-digital-scopes-real-time-sampling-or-equivalent-time-sampling/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/modern-digital-scopes-real-time-sampling-or-equivalent-time-sampling/)). Shahriar has likely mentioned a few times, but he is doing research level work, not hobbyist level.
Digilent is probably a great choice for audio work. If the budget is there, that and a 1054Z would be good.
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The Siglent uses a lot of energy ?, i am trying to save the world, it dont works so i might buy the Siglent ( so much to compare ).
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Thanks, i think i go for the Hameg, the build quality looks so much better.
I just have to save some money, and find a nice offer if they can give.
I still have 1 question :
Can i use the Function generator + patterngenerator + show input waveforms all at the same time together ?, does the function gen wave show besides the 2 input channels ?
if that is true i go for the Hameg for sure.
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User Manual HMO1202
http://www.ee.ic.ac.uk/pcheung/teaching/signals_scope/HMO1002.pdf (http://www.ee.ic.ac.uk/pcheung/teaching/signals_scope/HMO1002.pdf)
I didn't see this model at TEquipment - is it current?
Page 39 discusses the signal generator. I wonder what I can do with a 4 bit arbitrary waveform? OR, I wonder if I am reading that correctly - 10.2.3
The 50 kHz square wave limit is pretty much useless for me. 10 kHz Ramp? Seriously?
In any event, it's a good idea to read the User Manual and the Specifications flyer when evaluating scopes.
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I didn't see this model at TEquipment - is it current?
Do you mean they dont sell it because it is old already ?, what site do you mean exact ?
I wonder what I can do with a 4 bit arbitrary waveform? OR, I wonder if I am reading that correctly - 10.2.3
The 50 kHz square wave limit is pretty much useless for me. 10 kHz Ramp? Seriously?
I am busy with audio, i have no clue what to do with a frequency generator in the Megahertz domain, maybe you all make radios or something ?
The pattern generator i could use for triggering drum sounds / enveloppes, if it plays at very low speeds, then i dont need to add a microcontroller for creating drumsounds.
The frequency generator is settable with 0.1 Hz below 1K, very good for me for developing resonant filters,
if i could have original wave + breadboard output in 1 screen comparing i am happy, together with pattern generator for enveloppe generators.
I cannot realy see in the manual if it is all usable at the same time ?
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I didn't see this model at TEquipment - is it current?
Do you mean they dont sell it because it is old already ?, what site do you mean exact ?
http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=hmo1202 (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=hmo1202)
I wonder what I can do with a 4 bit arbitrary waveform? OR, I wonder if I am reading that correctly - 10.2.3
The 50 kHz square wave limit is pretty much useless for me. 10 kHz Ramp? Seriously?
I am busy with audio, i have no clue what to do with a frequency generator in the Megahertz domain, maybe you all make radios or something ?
The pattern generator i could use for triggering drum sounds / enveloppes, if it plays at very low speeds, then i dont need to add a microcontroller for creating drumsounds.
The frequency generator is settable with 0.1 Hz below 1K, very good for me for developing resonant filters,
if i could have original wave + breadboard output in 1 screen comparing i am happy, together with pattern generator for enveloppe generators.
I cannot realy see in the manual if it is all usable at the same time ?
There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.
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They also have Siglent, what is the best choise from Siglent ?, do they also have that fan noise ?, is Siglent a better brand to buy then Rigol ?
This is gonna save me alot of money buying Rigol or Siglent.
edit : i already see in the movie it makes less noise : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUz3KYp_5Tc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUz3KYp_5Tc)
If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.
The parameters on selecting a waveform are plain to understand and select using buttons and a multi-function control once within the Wavegen menu; type, frequency, offset, impedance and amplitude etc.
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There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.
If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.
Ok, i was just guessing, still it would be handy some internal routing to a ( extra/virtual ) channel.
@ tautech : to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.
Yes the Siglent is looking good also, only made in China makes me think twice,
what i see in the movies is the build quality of R&S is superior to others, made in EU.
The Rigol looks bad quality to me, i dont trust in the long term, i rather buy Siglent or even better, GW-instek made in Taiwan,
its about having cheap or expensive brand, i am very carefull with my stuff, if it breaks its not my fault, thats why i rather not buy cheap China brands,
it is very attractive, i have enough money for chinese brands already, one mouseclick away.
If you wanto send me a demo model for lending on your risk, maybe you can convince me as Siglent distributor.
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There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.
If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.
Ok, i was just guessing, still it would be handy some internal routing to a ( extra/virtual ) channel.
It would take a real ADC and memory. For all practical purposes, a channel. Chances are one scope channel will be used looking at the signal anyway. We often want to look at input and output from the DUT.
@ tautech : to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.
Yes the Siglent is looking good also, only made in China makes me think twice,
what i see in the movies is the build quality of R&S is superior to others, made in EU.
The Rigol looks bad quality to me, i dont trust in the long term, i rather buy Siglent or even better, GW-instek made in Taiwan,
its about having cheap or expensive brand, i am very carefull with my stuff, if it breaks its not my fault, thats why i rather not buy cheap China brands,
it is very attractive, i have enough money for chinese brands already, one mouseclick away.
If you wanto send me a demo model for lending on your risk, maybe you can convince me as Siglent distributor.
The "no China" thing takes a lot of good scopes off the table. Most of them are made there, regardless of how they are branded. I don't see any particular advantage to Taiwan vs China.
If I were you, I certainly wouldn't buy the Rigol. Siglent is clearly a better option for you. R&S is also a good possibility. Aren't they made in Euorpe somewhere?
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Just buy local to you in NL so you can try and return it easily if you don't like it regardless of where it made. Even if cheaper if bought in the USA or China it can be a problem to return it for whatever reason, including warranty repair.
.. only made in China makes me think twice,
.. build quality made in EU.
.. GW-instek made in Taiwan,
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R&S is also a good possibility. Aren't they made in Euorpe somewhere?
Yes.
(Designed in Germany, built in Poland in R&S-owned factory IIRC)
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There should be no relationship between the display and the signal generator.
If you want an inbuilt AWG then you need to select a SDS1000X + (Plus) model and they have 16 ch MSO capability too. These units all come with the Decode option free ATM.
In answer to your wonderings on use of the AWG at the same time, yes of course you can but the waveform is not displayed, you have to feed it into one of the channels if you want/need to see it.
Ok, i was just guessing, still it would be handy some internal routing to a ( extra/virtual ) channel.
@ tautech : to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.
Yes the Siglent is looking good also, only made in China makes me think twice,
what i see in the movies is the build quality of R&S is superior to others, made in EU.
The Rigol looks bad quality to me, i dont trust in the long term, i rather buy Siglent or even better, GW-instek made in Taiwan,
its about having cheap or expensive brand, i am very carefull with my stuff, if it breaks its not my fault, thats why i rather not buy cheap China brands,
it is very attractive, i have enough money for chinese brands already, one mouseclick away.
If you wanto send me a demo model for lending on your risk, maybe you can convince me as Siglent distributor.
I haven't sold lots of 1000X but all my buyers have been pleased with them and as far as reliability, I've not had any problems with them and with Siglent in general, all but a very few with older/lesser models that all have been solved with their 3 year warranty.
Look, the world is a small place these days and for some years all manner of goods have been assembled in countries other than where the OEM is based. This is true of European brands too. A few years ago neither of us would've have bought stuff from Asia or the lesser EU countries...........today is much different.
As far as "try before you buy" all I can offer (I only sell locally) is to contact the resellers listed on the Siglent website 'How to buy": http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspx (http://www.siglenteu.com/howtobuy.aspx)
There may be other sellers close to you that have a demo unit and you could ask the Siglent Hamburg office for advice.
info-eu@siglent.com
to bad the 16ch cable is not included for free.
Yep, it's not a cheap item and could be better constructed as it's just a SCSI cable and breakout box. >:(
Nico replaced the SPL1016 ribbon SCSI cable with a much more flexible round SCSI cable for the SDS2204 that he had and we've asked Siglent to supply a better cable. They have been superseded on the SDS2000X series with a cable that's split into two 8 ch with longer and more flexible "tails" like this:
(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/SDS2000X/SPL2016-3.2.png)
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1542&id=1488&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1542&id=1488&tid=1&T=2)
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Ok, not all China is bad, they have this reputation, India reputation is even worse i think.
Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?
The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?
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The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?
The SDS1000X have a Eres (Hi Res) mode in which the trace is somewhat less bright, especially in screenshots but you can get an idea of what it looks like in this image from this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1011033/#msg1011033 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1011033/#msg1011033)
Note: Dot mode, not Vectors.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/?action=dlattach;attach=250104)
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Ok, not all China is bad, they have this reputation, India reputation is even worse i think.
Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?
The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?
Which model are you talking about?
If the ADC is only 8 bits, why have a screen with a bazillion pixels? Have you checked the datasheet? Even my high resolution computer displays only have about 2000 pixels vertical. 65536 pixels? Whatever for?
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTO2000_dat-sw_en_3607-2684-22_v0400.pdf
Without having to use a dictionary to figure out what R&S is talking about, the Vertical Resolution is 8 bits. With some kind of decimation or an add-on kit will get 16 bit resolution but the absolute Effective Number of Bits is > 7.0
I suspect the scope (RTO2002) is well over $30k but I can't find the real price. It tends toward Price On Application!
It's pretty hard to compare a $400 scope against a $30K+ scope. Of course the more costly scope has better specs!
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Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?
If you want bugs fixed quickly then Rigol and Siglent are NOT a good choice.
I'm also not convinced by the build quality of Hameg HMO1000 series. In Dave's video I can spot a few problems off the bat: BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point. Also the main PCB is mounted in the wrong orientation without proper support which makes it flex due to vibrations (setting it on a desk for example) a lot more than a PCB which is mounted parallel to the front like in the GW Instek. BTW Dave seems to a prototype scope from GW Instek because in my GDS2204E there is only one PCB containing the digital and analog parts.
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Don't be stuck in the spec sheet, it does not say much about the actual performance of an instrument.
On a sheet, a Rigol 2072 and Hameg HMO3000 might have similar features for protocol decoders. But then you start your day and weirdness kicks in.
it is really important to trust your instrument if you are doing any design / firmware work with SPI / I2C / CAN, you can spend an order of magnitude more time without a good tool, pain in the ass to hand-decode or download waveforms.
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PisoScope has some nice 16bit scopes at low cost, but the so called low cost is still $1150+.
Sure, the 4000 series has 12 bits or even 16 bits BUT...
The 12 bit version goes to 20 MHz and the 16 bit version goes to 5 MHz. Neither interest me...
Their faster scopes tend to have 8 bits.
In the end, I view the scope as a qualitative instrument, not quantitative. Yes, the measurements are nice but there may be more accurate methods.
If the ADC is 8 bits, 0.4% is all I can assume and that's pushing things. The idea of enhancing the resolution with mathematics doesn't sit all that well for me. It's kind of like Equivalent Time Sampling; at best it is a joke! The method only works on repetitive signals and that just doesn't happen in my corner of the sandbox.
The limit to resolution is the ADC and sampling rate versus width. Everybody can make a fast 8 bit ADC but to get 16 bits at muiltiple GHz is pushing things. Yes, some scopes can do it but they don't tend to sell for $400.
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I'm also not convinced by the build quality of Hameg HMO1000 series. In Dave's video I can spot a few problems off the bat: BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point.
Says who? Can you point us to somebody who managed to break theirs?
R&S are a company with a lot more experience than the GoodWill Instrument Company at this sort of thing. I think they know how to mount a BNC connector.
PS: Dave disagrees with you at 28:48 ... and most of the rest of the video. He really likes the build quality.
Also the main PCB is mounted in the wrong orientation without proper support which makes it flex due to vibrations (setting it on a desk for example)
It's not a huge board and it's supported on all 4 edges, so... :-//
... GW Instek
:horse:
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I'm also not convinced by the build quality of Hameg HMO1000 series. In Dave's video I can spot a few problems off the bat: BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point.
Says who? Can you point us to somebody who managed to break theirs?
R&S are a company with a lot more experience than the GoodWill Instrument Company at this sort of thing. I think they know how to mount a BNC connector.
PS: Dave disagrees with you at 28:48 ... and most of the rest of the video. He really likes the build quality.
Did you ever see the difference in damage with a BNC bolted to the chassis or not when someone puts force on it? Or any other plug which is surface mounted? I have several times so I really don't care what Dave likes or not; I rather look beyond the badge and go with my own experience. The bottom line is that solder joints are not suitable to deal with mechanical stress and surface mounted connectors are the worst by far. The Hameg HMO1000 series is clearly designed to a price point which includes minimising the amount of labour to put a scope together and Hameg has cut some corners mechanically in order to achieve that. GW Instek isn't new at the test equipment market either and they do have the advantage of having simple access to cheap labour so they don't have to skimp on built quality. As I wrote before: GW Instek offers a warranty which ends 5 years after they stop producing the model. Show me a test equipment manufacturer with the same confidence in their products!
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5000 series does 1Gsps at high resolution.
I must be on the wrong page:
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/5000/flexible-resolution-oscilloscope (https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/5000/flexible-resolution-oscilloscope)
It looks like the 5000 series will do 1GS/s at 8 bits, 500 MS/s at 12 bits and 62.5 MS/s at 16 bits. These rates are further reduced as more channels are used:
https://www.picotech.com/download/datasheets/MM040.en-8.pdf (https://www.picotech.com/download/datasheets/MM040.en-8.pdf)
One thing the 5000 series has is a very large sample memory - 512 MS
That 5000 series has a lot of neat features! It's a bit out of my range when the bottom line model is $1200 but that's not a bad price for all the capabilities. I only priced the 60 MHz version. As with the Analog Discovery, the need for a PC is not an issue for me!
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Does Siglent fix all their bugs like Rigol has done ?
You're taking the piss, right ?
The fastest bug fix I recall was one I reported from a member here in a SDG2042X AWG and it was fixed in 2 weeks.
When we can identify a bug that can be reproduced at the factory it's normally always fixed in the next FW release.
TBH Siglent products are much better than even 12 months ago in relation to bugs at new product release.
For their scopes, all the X series (SDS1kX and 2kX) use a very similar UI with only some different functionality and features between the 2 series. This has helped both series development, usually with 2 lots of FW being released within days to fix the same problems in both series.
All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right; that is there shouldn't be a need for FW to fix bad design.
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Does Siglent fix all their bugs like Rigol has done ?
You're taking the piss, right ?
The fastest bug fix I recall was one I reported from a member here in a SDG2042X AWG and it was fixed in 2 weeks.
When we can identify a bug that can be reproduced at the factory it's normally always fixed in the next FW release.
With Siglent that varies greatly between the various products. It seems their signal generator and spectrum analyser department are up to speed at the moment but when it comes to oscilloscopes their update cycles are slow (around twice a year) even though the bugs a severe.
All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right
I have to disagree: an oscilloscope should deliver it's specifications out of the box and if not it has to be fixed within a few weeks at most. Not years! Both Rigol and Siglent release oscilloscopes way before the firmware is at an acceptable level and need several years (>3) to make the firmware work at a level it matches the specifications.
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All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right
I have to disagree: an oscilloscope should deliver it's specifications out of the box and if not it has to be fixed within a few weeks at most. Not years! Both Rigol and Siglent release oscilloscopes way before the firmware is at an acceptable level and need several years (>3) to make the firmware work at a level it matches the specifications.
And... you have that option! You just need to pay extra for it.
Other people are prepared to accept 99% functionality if they can get their 'scopes for a quarter of the price and all the basics are working (wiggly lines appear on screen nicely, there's enough channels+and bandwidth).
That's what you're failing to see/accept here.
Some forum members project an image that DS1054Z owners are clueless nincompoops who don't appreciate the fine things in life like they do. It simply isn't true. They just need something that's good bang per buck, does the job adequately and won't break the bank.
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All modern DSO's have some shortcomings, some are substandard specs, some are bugs but the most important feature must and must always be: basic functionality must be right
I have to disagree: an oscilloscope should deliver it's specifications out of the box and if not it has to be fixed within a few weeks at most. Not years! Both Rigol and Siglent release oscilloscopes way before the firmware is at an acceptable level and need several years (>3) to make the firmware work at a level it matches the specifications.
Other people are prepared to accept 99% functionality if they can get their 'scopes for a quarter of the price and all the basics are working (wiggly lines appear on screen nicely, there's enough channels+and bandwidth).
In that case they might as well have spend their money on an old analog oscilloscope! The whole reason to buy a DSO is to get the extra features (measurements, math, decoding, etc) but if they don't work they are useless.
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If the ADC is only 8 bits, why have a screen with a bazillion pixels?
It's handy to have multiple waveforms on screen at less than full scale. More vertical pixels = more detail, even for 8 bit signals.
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In that case they might as well have spend their money on an old analog oscilloscope!
Don't you ever get bored of pretending the DS1054Z doesn't work? :horse:
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In that case they might as well have spend their money on an old analog oscilloscope!
Don't you ever get bored of pretending the DS1054Z doesn't work? :horse:
Is your world really limited to the DS1054Z??? :palm: It seems that is the only model you know! Did I mention it in my previous statement?:
Both Rigol and Siglent release oscilloscopes way before the firmware is at an acceptable level and need several years (>3) to make the firmware work at a level it matches the specifications.
No, it seems not. Also the incomplete firmware isn't limited to low end oscilloscopes. Rigol and Siglent will happily take several $k from you and deliver a scope which doesn't work as specified so paying more isn't always the solution either.
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If you can afford to wait, then you don't "need" it, just wanting it, just saying.
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BNCs not bolted to the chassis so they will break from the PCB at some point.
You are right, i see it now, that is very bad ( proofs nothing is perfect ).
GW Instek offers a warranty which ends 5 years after they stop producing the model. Show me a test equipment manufacturer with the same confidence in their products!
Pluspoints for GW-instek, if you buy a recent model you would have enough guarantee, nice.
Can i see that on the receipt ?, or the GW instek website ?
On a sheet, a Rigol 2072 and Hameg HMO3000 might have similar features for protocol decoders. But then you start your day and weirdness kicks in.
Exact, programming needs a lot of testing, that cost a lot of time, specs are not saying much.
R&S are a company with a lot more experience than the GoodWill Instrument Company at this sort of thing. I think they know how to mount a BNC connector.
I dont know for sure, maybe its better against noise then ?, or maybe they dont want some person to manually place the nut, must have some reason,
it looks very well soldered, i dont know how many play it has, if it is very steady then less problems, they better fix this, it will break if there is some play.
The bottom line is that solder joints are not suitable to deal with mechanical stress and surface mounted connectors are the worst by far. The Hameg HMO1000 series is clearly designed to a price point which includes minimising the amount of labour to put a scope together and Hameg has cut some corners mechanically in order to achieve that.
I think that is the case if the more expensive models has it front panel mounted.
Does Siglent fix all their bugs like Rigol has done ?
You're taking the piss, right ?
Siglent distributor saying that ?, pluspoints for the Rigol 1054Z.
If you can afford to wait, then you don't "need" it, just wanting it, just saying.
Your right, my analog scope also works,
only when i power it on, all MCUs crash, my PSU display lights up, speakers make click sound,
+ it drifts if i wanto see a pin go hi/low at audio rate (44K1Hz), and getting vague at this point.
Before i forget it is also very deep, takes a lot of space.
I also like to get started with digital communication.
Reason enough now ?
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Your right, my analog scope also works,
only when i power it on, all MCUs crash, my PSU display lights up, speakers make click sound,
That's another advantage of an old scope: it demonstrates the UUT has inadequate power supplies, decoupling and EMI/EMC protection :)
Before i forget it is also very deep, takes a lot of space.
That's an advantage of newer equipment; how much of an advantage depends on the location.
Contrarywise, light equipment can be a disadvantage with some coaxial cables - the "tail" wags the "dog" :)
I also like to get started with digital communication.
Digital scopes and digital comms are orthogonal; latter doesn't require the former.
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GW Instek offers a warranty which ends 5 years after they stop producing the model. Show me a test equipment manufacturer with the same confidence in their products!
Pluspoints for GW-instek, if you buy a recent model you would have enough guarantee, nice.
Can i see that on the receipt ?, or the GW instek website ?
http://gwinstek.com/en-global/Page/LLW_Introduction (http://gwinstek.com/en-global/Page/LLW_Introduction)
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Ok, not all China is bad, they have this reputation, India reputation is even worse i think.
Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?
The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?
Which model are you talking about?
If the ADC is only 8 bits, why have a screen with a bazillion pixels? Have you checked the datasheet? Even my high resolution computer displays only have about 2000 pixels vertical. 65536 pixels? Whatever for?
proper math/cursor/measurement? that doesn't come from shit interpolated on screen? offline analysis? distortion measurement (not from screen data of course)?
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IMHO so called high resolution modes are only usefull for filtering a signal. Non linearities and frequency dependant behaviour will add way more errors. 0.1dB is in the ballpark of 1% error. All in all true high resolution AD converters seem usefull for more detailed frequency domain (FFT) analysis but you have to be aware of the harmonic distortion effects of the oscilloscope's front end.
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Does Siglent fix all their bugs like Rigol has done ?
You're taking the piss, right ?
Siglent distributor saying that ?
Pointing out a fact.............but if you're not listening. :horse:
Ok, not all China is bad, they have this reputation, India reputation is even worse i think.
Does Siglent fix all theyr bugs like Rigol has done ?
The R&S/Hameg has got HD mode ( 16 bit ), does Rigol and Siglent has this also ?
Which model are you talking about?
If the ADC is only 8 bits, why have a screen with a bazillion pixels? Have you checked the datasheet? Even my high resolution computer displays only have about 2000 pixels vertical. 65536 pixels? Whatever for?
proper math/cursor/measurement? that doesn't come from shit interpolated on screen? offline analysis? distortion measurement (not from screen data of course)?
Not all DSO's do it like that. ^
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The GW instek realy looks ugly, its like new furniture in my living room.
4 channel 50MHz model without logic decoder : €550,-
4 channel 70MHz model with logic decoder : €990,-
Wow that is almost double price for a logic decoder, ok the 4 channel 70MHz is €680,- , i dont need the extra bandwidth.
What is more better in the 2000E series then the 1000B series ?
My final list :
1 : Hameg HMO1002 ( realy nice, only 2 channels )
2 : GW-instek GDS-2074E ( big & ugly, good warranty )
3 : Rigol 1054Z ( Slow boot, bad encoders & Noisey fan ( why cant they build in a better fan themselfs ?, do i realy need to void the warranty ? )
edit : How about the included probe quality of those 3 scopes ?, i dont wanto buy more stuff only 1 scope, no money to buy extra probes.
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when the next generation of super scope models comes out, with all wireless dc to microwave rechargeable nunchuck probes & 4k retina resolution video displays. :scared:
I can finally pick up a cheap Rigol , with digital "sample & hold" like Dave has in his videos , - now made obsolete with wired probes & low resolution video display.
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4k retina resolution video displays.
Full HD is enough for now, for this reason i might buy a DMM first.
edit : by the way, how many latency does these scope has ?
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The GW instek realy looks ugly, its like new furniture in my living room.
4 channel 50MHz model without logic decoder : €550,-
4 channel 70MHz model with logic decoder : €990,-
Wow that is almost double price for a logic decoder, ok the 4 channel 70MHz is €680,- , i dont need the extra bandwidth.
What is more better in the 2000E series then the 1000B series ?
AFAIK the 2000E series has a bigger screen. Tequipment has (had?) a nice deal on the GDS2000E series which including shipping costs and VAT may be better than the price from Eleshop (it never hurts to point Eleshop at the Tequipment deal and see if they can match it).
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Dont http://www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net) has EU warehouse ?, to bad.
Good to know how much i will be ripped off when buying here in EU, they better change the prices first.
Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
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My final list :
1 : Hameg HMO1002 ( realy nice, only 2 channels )
2 : GW-instek GDS-2074E ( big & ugly, good warranty )
3 : Rigol 1054Z ( Slow boot, bad encoders & Noisey fan ( why cant they build in a better fan themselfs ?, do i realy need to void the warranty ? )
I reckon you'd be better to wait. ;)
(just a few months)
******* series of super-fluorescence oscilloscope, with 70M, 100MHz and 200MHz bandwidth models, sampling rate 1GSa / s, standard storage depth of 14Mpts, the most commonly used functions are user-friendly one-click design; SPO technology, The signal fidelity: the bottom noise lower than similar products in the industry, the minimum range of only 500 uV / div; innovative digital trigger system, high trigger sensitivity, trigger jitter small; waveform capture rate of up to 400,000 frames / sec (Sequence mode) Level brightness level and color temperature display; support a wealth of smart trigger; support the historical model (Sequence), sequence mode (Sequence) and enhanced resolution mode (Eres); has a wealth of measurement and mathematical operations; 1M point FFT can be more Detailed analysis of the frequency domain; 14M full sampling point measurement, without distortion of the calculated signal parameters; is a high-performance general-purpose oscilloscope.
- Channel bandwidth: 70MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz
- Real-time sampling rates up to 1GSa / s
-Next-generation SPO technology
-Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
-Support 256-level waveform brightness and color temperature display
-Storage depth up to 14Mpts
-Digital triggering system
-Smart Trigger: Edge, Slope, Pulse width, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern,
-Video triggering, support for HDTV
-Excellent background noise with a voltage range as low as 500uV / div
-Support for Auto Setup, Default, Cursors, Measure, Roll, History, Persist, Clear Sweeps, Math and Print with 10 one-button shortcuts.
-Sequential mode, which divides the memory depth into 80,000 segments. According to the trigger conditions set by the user, the event can be captured with very small dead time.
-History mode, which can record up to 80,000 waveforms
-38 kinds of automatic measurement function, support measurement statistics, Zoom measurement, Gating measurement, Math measurement, History measurement, Ref measurement
-1 M point FFT operation
-14M full sampling point measurement and calculation, through the coprocessor to complete, bringing a very fast user experience
-Waveform functions (FFT, add, subtract, multiply, divide, integrate, differential, square root)
-Customize the Default parameter to customize the Default button
-Depth restore factory state, delete all the operating records on the machine, suitable for high security industry
-High-speed Pass / Fail function implemented by hardware
-7-inch TFT-LCD display with a resolution of 800 * 480
-Extensive interfaces: USB Host, USB Device (USBTMC), LAN (VXI-11), Pass / Fail, Trigger Out
-Supports rich SCPI remote control commands
-Multi-language display and embedded online help
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i don't see protocol decoding there?
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That about sums up the specs of the GW Instek GDS2000E series which you can buy today so why wait a few months (and probably a few years to fix the bugs)?
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i don't see protocol decoding there?
It's there, I checked but didn't copy it in.
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That about sums up the specs of the GW Instek GDS2000E series which you can buy today so why wait a few months (and probably a few years to fix the bugs)?
Yeah right. ::)
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
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That about sums up the specs of the GW Instek GDS2000E series which you can buy today so why wait a few months (and probably a few years to fix the bugs)?
But no price information so too early to say if the Instek has just been made obsolete.
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That about sums up the specs of the GW Instek GDS2000E series which you can buy today so why wait a few months (and probably a few years to fix the bugs)?
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
The waveform capture is the least important because it is only achieved in dot mode (nobody uses that) as very specific time/div settings. Don't fall for the hype because waveforms/seconds is like the power rating of the (combustion) engine in a car: it is only achieved in a limited RPM range.
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i don't see protocol decoding there?
It's there, I checked but didn't copy it in.
so... which protocols? protocol triggering?
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Dont http://www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net) has EU warehouse ?, to bad.
Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
That's an insane amount of stock! :o
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i don't see protocol decoding there?
It's there, I checked but didn't copy it in.
so... which protocols? protocol triggering?
Other units this manufacturer builds supports decoding and triggering of :
IIC, SPI, UART, RS232, CAN, LIN
So I don't see any reason why these units won't too. Time will tell for sure.
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ah! just say you can't tell yet, that's a rather poor answer :-/
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Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
That's an insane amount of stock! :o
Xmas?
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ah! just say you can't tell yet, that's a rather poor answer :-/
OK, so you made me download and translate the datasheet, so here's the gen:
Serial bus triggering and decoding, supported protocols IIC, SPI, UART / RS232, CAN, LIN
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That about sums up the specs of the GW Instek GDS2000E series which you can buy today so why wait a few months (and probably a few years to fix the bugs)?
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
The waveform capture is the least important because it is only achieved in dot mode (nobody uses that) as very specific time/div settings. Don't fall for the hype because waveforms/seconds is like the power rating of the (combustion) engine in a car: it is only achieved in a limited RPM range.
You know better than that, Oh that's right dot mode is problematic with a small memory depth DSO.
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ah! just say you can't tell yet, that's a rather poor answer :-/
OK, so you made me download and translate the datasheet, so here's the gen:
Serial bus triggering and decoding, supported protocols IIC, SPI, UART / RS232, CAN, LIN
perfect :) it's one i could consider then
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That about sums up the specs of the GW Instek GDS2000E series which you can buy today so why wait a few months (and probably a few years to fix the bugs)?
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
The waveform capture is the least important because it is only achieved in dot mode (nobody uses that) as very specific time/div settings. Don't fall for the hype because waveforms/seconds is like the power rating of the (combustion) engine in a car: it is only achieved in a limited RPM range.
You know better than that, Oh that's right dot mode is problematic with a small memory depth DSO.
It has been debated several times already that waveforms/second rating is meaningless: First of all it has to drop with longer memory and/or lower samplerates secondly you'd need infinite waveforms/second to catch a glitch with 100% certainty (IF you can keep staring at the screen). Just look at the math and it is pretty obvious. I use test equipment to make a living and when selecting an oscilloscope the waveforms/second is the last number I look at. Big screen and deep memory are much higher on my list.
Also dot mode isn't problematic for a small memory depth DSO. It is problematic for every DSO at short time/div settings because the dots are too far apart to see the signal. If you want to reach 400.000 waveforms/s at 1Gs/s you can only sample 2500 points at most. Add re-trigger/dead time and you'll likely end up with a number close to 1000 points.
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ah! just say you can't tell yet, that's a rather poor answer :-/
OK, so you made me download and translate the datasheet, so here's the gen:
Serial bus triggering and decoding, supported protocols IIC, SPI, UART / RS232, CAN, LIN
perfect :) it's one i could consider then
With anything like this, the devil can be in the details, so it can be useful to find other people's experiences.
When I was designing network/protocol capture tools, I made sure that the triggers and filters were as flexible as the MAC/PHY hardware allowed, ran at full speed and captured everything within very generous limits. I know not all manufacturer's equipment could say that; hence my company's tools were valued by their (very knowledgable) customers.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am making no comment about any specific tool mentioned in this thread.
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Dont http://www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net) has EU warehouse ?, to bad.
Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
That's an insane amount of stock! :o
Five are gone since yesterday (down to 2060). It might be fun to follow along and see how long it takes to clear the inventory.
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I posted on an old thread a short track I did of their sales. Love or hate it, it sells like no other, I've seen it drop once over 100 day. As of this post the count is 2017 from 2065.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-reliability/msg945055/#msg945055 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-reliability/msg945055/#msg945055)
Dont http://www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net) has EU warehouse ?, to bad.
Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
That's an insane amount of stock! :o
Five are gone since yesterday (down to 2060). It might be fun to follow along and see how long it takes to clear the inventory.
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I posted on an old thread a short track I did of their sales. Love or hate it, it sells like no other, I've seen it drop once over 100 day. As of this post the count is 2017 from 2065.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-reliability/msg945055/#msg945055 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-reliability/msg945055/#msg945055)
Dont http://www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net) has EU warehouse ?, to bad.
Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
That's an insane amount of stock! :o
Five are gone since yesterday (down to 2060). It might be fun to follow along and see how long it takes to clear the inventory.
I don't intend to follow this but they're down to 2017 in two days. So that's 48 in two days since we started looking. The inventory probably won't last 6 weeks! The scope is really a good seller.
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Dont http://www.tequipment.net (http://www.tequipment.net) has EU warehouse ?, to bad.
Funny, they have 2065 Rigol 1054Z in stock, they sell a lot.
That's an insane amount of stock! :o
That may include manufacturer stock allocated to them. Or could just be artificially inflated to make them look bigger!
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i don't see protocol decoding there?
It's there, I checked but didn't copy it in.
As standard or option ?
Considering that pretty much everything these days has at least one of UART, I2C or SPI, it's ridiculous that this isn't now standard on all new scopes.
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It seems decoding and other options are often offered as some (time limited) free deal but it doesn't take long for the deal to re-appear. Still I rather have them included in the base price than having to haggle or wait for the 'free options deal'.
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i don't see protocol decoding there?
It's there, I checked but didn't copy it in.
As standard or option ?
Considering that pretty much everything these days has at least one of UART, I2C or SPI, it's ridiculous that this isn't now standard on all new scopes.
It's listed in the Chinese datasheet as an option Mike but as Nico says who knows what the status of it will be when it's released to western markets.
As a distributor I've not been informed at all of this model at all yet (top secret ::) )....only just what I've spotted on the .cn website and Google translated.
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
Look, for example, at GW Instek GDS-2204E. Many people choose it over Siglent SDS2104X which costs the same, but is only 100 MHz scope while Instek is 200 MHz. However, Siglent is much more of a scope, its sample rate is twice that of Instek and it is actually 300 MHz scope if un-crippled. So, Siglent spent more money to build a better scope, but Instek still comes as a winner - because Instek didn't cripple the bandwidth. If Siglent un-crippled their scopes to 200, or even 300 MHz, Instek wouldn't be able compete.
We already see bandwidth upgrade promotions here and there. So, sooner or later, the bandwidth crippling will stop, and then market will become more fair and it will be possible to buy more bandwidth for the same money. May be it's worth waiting.
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
At the low (say <300MHz) end that's true. At the mid to higher frequency range that's still not true. Try go and design a high perfornance 1GHz+ analog front end and sell it in a $400 retail scope, you'll go broke pretty quick.
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
Look, for example, at GW Instek GDS-2204E. Many people choose it over Siglent SDS2104X which costs the same, but is only 100 MHz scope while Instek is 200 MHz. However, Siglent is much more of a scope, its sample rate is twice that of Instek and it is actually 300 MHz scope if un-crippled. So, Siglent spent more money to build a better scope, but Instek still comes as a winner - because Instek didn't cripple the bandwidth. If Siglent un-crippled their scopes to 200, or even 300 MHz, Instek wouldn't be able compete.
So you don't consider that the SDS2000X 2 or 4 ch models having more than 3x the memory depth and more wfm/s than the GDS-2204E as worth anything ? :-//
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
Look, for example, at GW Instek GDS-2204E. Many people choose it over Siglent SDS2104X which costs the same, but is only 100 MHz scope while Instek is 200 MHz. However, Siglent is much more of a scope, its sample rate is twice that of Instek and it is actually 300 MHz scope if un-crippled. So, Siglent spent more money to build a better scope, but Instek still comes as a winner - because Instek didn't cripple the bandwidth. If Siglent un-crippled their scopes to 200, or even 300 MHz, Instek wouldn't be able compete.
So you don't consider that the SDS2000X 2 or 4 ch models having more than 3x the memory depth and more wfm/s than the GDS-2204E as worth anything ? :-//
Nope, because they don't work (Eres and decoding don't even use the full memory depth for example). Besides that GW Instek is lightyears ahead of Siglent when it comes to implementing 'little things' which make life easier like input lowpass/bandpass/highpass filtering, math expressions, internal storage, dedicated key for 10x probe setting, storing images/data to a server over LAN, plain SCPI over LAN (LXI?) instead of the obfustigated VXI-11 protocol, optional split screen FFT, force trigger button, autoset undo, etc, etc. An oscilloscope is not only about the specs on the datasheet but also about how easy it is to use and what kind of features it has. I think you will do well if you also sell GW Instek scopes to your customers because you'll cover a lot more ground that way.
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
Look, for example, at GW Instek GDS-2204E. Many people choose it over Siglent SDS2104X which costs the same, but is only 100 MHz scope while Instek is 200 MHz. However, Siglent is much more of a scope, its sample rate is twice that of Instek and it is actually 300 MHz scope if un-crippled. So, Siglent spent more money to build a better scope, but Instek still comes as a winner - because Instek didn't cripple the bandwidth. If Siglent un-crippled their scopes to 200, or even 300 MHz, Instek wouldn't be able compete.
We already see bandwidth upgrade promotions here and there. So, sooner or later, the bandwidth crippling will stop, and then market will become more fair and it will be possible to buy more bandwidth for the same money. May be it's worth waiting.
Once you start looking for a scope with a bandwidth over 500MHz price increases dramatically which is why I settled on an old Tektronix TDS scope from the 90's for any of my high bandwidth requirements. Unfortunately it's still hard to mass produce hi-end scopes with bandwidths in excess of 1GHz. At these frequencies you need to consider active probes which can cost megabucks and are a specialized device.
cheers
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Once you start looking for a scope with a bandwidth over 500MHz price increases dramatically which is why I settled on an old Tektronix TDS scope from the 90's for any of my high bandwidth requirements. Unfortunately it's still hard to mass produce hi-end scopes with bandwidths in excess of 1GHz. At these frequencies you need to consider active probes which can cost megabucks and are a specialized device.
Indeed.
Sometimes cheaper alternatives can be used, e.g. in known impedance system a splitter+coax+50ohm termination, or just a "low" impedance Z0 resistive divider probe, or for a differential signal perhaps http://emcesd.com/pdf/cd94scr.pdf (http://emcesd.com/pdf/cd94scr.pdf)
In all cases grounding becomes rather important, and that makes it more likely that "browsing signals" with a probe will show signal integrity effects.
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
Look, for example, at GW Instek GDS-2204E. Many people choose it over Siglent SDS2104X which costs the same, but is only 100 MHz scope while Instek is 200 MHz. However, Siglent is much more of a scope, its sample rate is twice that of Instek and it is actually 300 MHz scope if un-crippled. So, Siglent spent more money to build a better scope, but Instek still comes as a winner - because Instek didn't cripple the bandwidth. If Siglent un-crippled their scopes to 200, or even 300 MHz, Instek wouldn't be able compete.
So you don't consider that the SDS2000X 2 or 4 ch models having more than 3x the memory depth and more wfm/s than the GDS-2204E as worth anything ? :-//
Nope, because they don't work (Eres and decoding don't even use the full memory depth for example). Besides that GW Instek is lightyears ahead of Siglent when it comes to implementing 'little things' which make life easier like input lowpass/bandpass/highpass filtering, math expressions, internal storage, dedicated key for 10x probe setting, storing images/data to a server over LAN, plain SCPI over LAN (LXI?) instead of the obfustigated VXI-11 protocol, optional split screen FFT, force trigger button, autoset undo, etc, etc. An oscilloscope is not only about the specs on the datasheet but also about how easy it is to use and what kind of features it has. I think you will do well if you also sell GW Instek scopes to your customers because you'll cover a lot more ground that way.
Tiny examples: Autoset undo. Of course Siglent have. Just one button undo. (return to previous settings)
FFT have 4 kind of display modes: FFT alone full window. FFT full window with overlayed full window signal. FFT and signal separately splitted. And separately splitted + signal zoom window overlayed with FFT window if signal zoom in use at same time.
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I think now could be the perfect time to wait. It looks to me that all this bandwidth crippling business is steadily going away (for the economy part of the market). It is ridiculous that the price of the DSOs is determined by bandwidth because the most expensive characteristic for production is not the analog bandwidth, but the sample rate. Pricing by bandwidth is just a remnant from the past and a method to get more money from the customer. But it might be coming to the end.
Look, for example, at GW Instek GDS-2204E. Many people choose it over Siglent SDS2104X which costs the same, but is only 100 MHz scope while Instek is 200 MHz. However, Siglent is much more of a scope, its sample rate is twice that of Instek and it is actually 300 MHz scope if un-crippled. So, Siglent spent more money to build a better scope, but Instek still comes as a winner - because Instek didn't cripple the bandwidth. If Siglent un-crippled their scopes to 200, or even 300 MHz, Instek wouldn't be able compete.
So you don't consider that the SDS2000X 2 or 4 ch models having more than 3x the memory depth and more wfm/s than the GDS-2204E as worth anything ? :-//
Nope, because they don't work (Eres and decoding don't even use the full memory depth for example). Besides that GW Instek is lightyears ahead of Siglent when it comes to implementing 'little things' which make life easier like input lowpass/bandpass/highpass filtering, math expressions, internal storage, dedicated key for 10x probe setting, storing images/data to a server over LAN, plain SCPI over LAN (LXI?) instead of the obfustigated VXI-11 protocol, optional split screen FFT, force trigger button, autoset undo, etc, etc. An oscilloscope is not only about the specs on the datasheet but also about how easy it is to use and what kind of features it has. I think you will do well if you also sell GW Instek scopes to your customers because you'll cover a lot more ground that way.
Numerous thing have changed since you had a SDS2204 with the newer X series and to add to those that have been pointed out the SDS2kX now have a input attenuation ring around the ch BNC to set for the 10x probe.
I posted about those 6 mth ago, you must have missed it or it didn't sink in.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)
From the website:
Supports SCPI remote control commands
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The little things make the big difference! For example: remote commands over LAN are nice but the feature is useless if they are encapsulated in an obfustigated protocol like VXI-11. Look deeper than random quotes from a website and you'll see for yourself why the GDS2000E series is such a better deal than the SDS2000(X) series.
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So you don't consider that the SDS2000X 2 or 4 ch models having more than 3x the memory depth and more wfm/s than the GDS-2204E as worth anything ? :-//
I think about it this way. The heart of the scope is ADC. ADC has certain sample rate. The more the sample rate, the more expensive ADC is, and the price grows exponentially. Faster sampling also requires faster and/or bigger FPGAs to accept all these samples. Siglent designed SDS2000X scope around an ADC with 1Gs/s sample rate. As we know, ADC requires low pass filter. For 1Gs/s sample rate, the required frequency of the fron end filter is somewhere around 300 MHz. What Siglent does for SDS2104X? They install bigger capacitors, so the filter is now 100 MHz instead of 300 MHz. What the customer can do:
1) Live with incorrect capacitors and have 100 MHz scope instead of 300 MHz.
2) Open it up and replace the capacitors with the correct values.
3) Pay $1,000 to Siglent so that they would install correct capacitors.
Siglent, of course, would think you should take option 2 (you void warranty) or 3 (you pay more), but here's the catch. Here's option 4:
4) Buy Instek GDS-2204E instead.
With Instek, you get only 500MS/s sample rate, but Siglent's 1GS/s isn't worth much with incorrect 100MHz front end filter. Why pay for the bigger ADC? Instek, on the other hand is a 200 MHz scope! Other than that, it comes down to slightly clumsier software and idiotic VXI-11 protocol vs more memory. 120k wfms/s is not that much different from 140k wfms /s. If either company sells the same amount of the scopes, Instek gets much more profit because their hardware is cheaper.
But. If not for the bad capacitors, Siglent would be a clear winner.
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Screwing the front end filter the other way doesn't help neither. Here's a cheap 1GHz scope:
http://www.analogarts.com/products/usb-oscilloscope/sa985-1-ghz-bandwidth-oscilloscope (http://www.analogarts.com/products/usb-oscilloscope/sa985-1-ghz-bandwidth-oscilloscope)
But the sample rate is 125Ms/s :-DD
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All this may have some historical meaning, but I predict that in the (near) future bandwidth is going to be determined by the sample rates, not by marketing schemes. And it means more bandwidth for the same money for the customers.
Of course it may not be true for bigger scopes. If a scope costs as much as a car (or a house), everything is different.
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So you don't consider that the SDS2000X 2 or 4 ch models having more than 3x the memory depth and more wfm/s than the GDS-2204E as worth anything ? :-//
I think about it this way. The heart of the scope is ADC. ADC has certain sample rate. The more the sample rate, the more expensive ADC is, and the price grows exponentially. Faster sampling also requires faster and/or bigger FPGAs to accept all these samples. Siglent designed SDS2000X scope around an ADC with 1Gs/s sample rate. As we know, ADC requires low pass filter. For 1Gs/s sample rate, the required frequency of the fron end filter is somewhere around 300 MHz. What Siglent does for SDS2104X? They install bigger capacitors, so the filter is now 100 MHz instead of 300 MHz. What the customer can do:
1) Live with incorrect capacitors and have 100 MHz scope instead of 300 MHz.
2) Open it up and replace the capacitors with the correct values.
3) Pay $1,000 to Siglent so that they would install correct capacitors.
You make a # of assumptions some of which are wrong.
The front end filter is not constructed as you think and SW controls the max BW.
The ADC used is 2GSs/s and 1GSa/a is the minimum sample rate.
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The front end filter is not constructed as you think and SW controls the max BW.
May be. Hardware control is just the assumption I made watching Dave's tear down video. Each channel has exactly two hand-soldered capacitors.
The method doesn't really matter. The point is that the low pass filter is set lower than it should. I don't want to say that Siglent is the only manufacturer who does this. This was just an example. Every manufacturer is doing this to some extent. This is a historical thing. I am simply suggesting that this practice might be coming to the end because crippling the products makes them more costly to produce and less competitive at the same time.
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I am simply suggesting that this practice might be coming to the end because crippling the products makes them more costly to produce and less competitive at the same time.
This discussion has been around a few times now, many markets do this for segmentation. In some markets you pay for exactly the same thing with a different name or sales channel and the prices are wildly different, so be happy test equipment is only priced to its capabilities. There is no evidence that a test and measurement manufacturer would make more money by selling a single model instead of a range of models, or one of them would be doing it and taking the market to themselves.
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The front end filter is not constructed as you think and SW controls the max BW.
The method doesn't really matter. The point is that the low pass filter is set lower than it should. I don't want to say that Siglent is the only manufacturer who does this. This was just an example. Every manufacturer is doing this to some extent. This is a historical thing. I am simply suggesting that this practice might be coming to the end because crippling the products makes them more costly to produce and less competitive at the same time.
Yep, it's been going on for decades. While some (but not all) offer after-sales purchasable BW upgrades, but this amounts to an acknowledgement that BW is crippled in SW and fosters/seeds resultant interest in hacking equipment. Manufacturers (most) don't want this added attention and prefer the status quo where a series of equipment is developed for a set cost with the price for the top of the series helping subsidise the lower units in order to get the total sales required for profitability.
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I am simply suggesting that this practice might be coming to the end because crippling the products makes them more costly to produce and less competitive at the same time.
:palm:
100% ass-backwards. They do it because it's cheaper. Cheaper to only have one PCB for all models, one production line making all models, the ability to change the 100MHz:300MHz output ratio at a moments notice (based on incoming orders). All this far outweighs the $10 they'd save by using a cheaper ADC in the 100Mhz model.
Plus: If you're smart you can pretend to let customers 'hack' their scopes.
How many DS1054Zs would Rigol sell if it wasn't soft-unlockable? None - everybody would buy the slightly cheaper GW-Instek 1054B.
How many HMO1002s could R&S sell if it were easily hackable to 300MHz? Zillions! Why don't they allow it? :-// :palm:
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How many HMO1002s could R&S sell if it were easily hackable to 300MHz? Zillions! Why don't they allow it? :-// :palm:
The HMO has everything unlocked exept bandwidth i think, thats why its nice you dont have to hack it, at least i dont see why i need the bandwidth.
Look i found this site : https://www.soselectronic.com/products/rohde-schwarz/hmo-1002-165549 (https://www.soselectronic.com/products/rohde-schwarz/hmo-1002-165549)
Anyone know this site ?, its weird, they have only 1 out of many scopes in stock,
als with the DMM they have only 1 UNI-T in stock, weird site, only good price on the HMO1002, why cant i get it cheaper from a "normal" shop ?
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Its software, you can hack any software, only some hacker has to take the time and money to do this.
If you wanto solder in your new scope, go ahead, i dont like it, you must be some super professional person to say that blueskull.
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Even if you could upgrade the HMO for free, it is still no good.
It's built to a price point. Avoid it! Don't waste your money!
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:palm:
100% ass-backwards. They do it because it's cheaper. Cheaper to only have one PCB for all models, one production line making all models, the ability to change the 100MHz:300MHz output ratio at a moments notice (based on incoming orders). All this far outweighs the $10 they'd save by using a cheaper ADC in the 100Mhz model.
It is not about production, it is about sales.
Company X makes 500 MHz scopes and sell them for $7,000. They also make the same scopes and modify them to be 100 MHz and sell them for $2,000. Apparently, they make profit on their $2,000 scopes, which means that their margin on $7,000 scopes is huge. Such margins may be appropriate for Keysight, but such margins are not going to persist in a competitive market.
Imagine, company Y makes substantially the same scopes but marks everything as 500 MHz and sell them for $2,500. Low end customers would prefer that because they get 500 MHz for really small premium over 100 MHz scopes made by company X. High end customers will get huge savings compared to 500 MHz scopes made by company X. So, company X will have nobody to sell to.
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I like to start building my own scope, start with the most simple scope & logic analyzer if that is possible, later look for good/fast parts, and find out how they work.
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I,m only building DIP, so i bet those fast scope parts are not even available in DIP,
i,m curious what is the best scope you can build with DIP packages.
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I like to start building my own scope, start with the most simple scope & logic analyzer if that is possible, later look for good/fast parts, and find out how they work.
It's pretty easy to get wiggly lines on a screen, I did it about 60 years ago using plans from the ARRL Handbook. I wouldn't want to guarantee the volts/div or time/div but I get neat Lissajous patterns. The project looked like a DuMont scope as shown in this Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_B._DuMont (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_B._DuMont)
Of course, mine didn't have anything like the legends on a real scope. Still, not bad for a youngster.
Today, I would just use a logic analyzer to capture a free running ADC and deal with the details later. It's pretty easy to build a 200 MHz logic analyzer but that is not an impressive sample rate.
https://www.sump.org/projects/analyzer/ (https://www.sump.org/projects/analyzer/)
Going real fast with the ADC and FPGA is going to take a bunch of engineering. Memory design ought to be a challenge!
DIP packages? You aren't going anywhere. There are no FPGAs that I am aware of in that package and very few fast uCs.
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The hardware of a scope is pretty easy compared to the user interface software. One of my ongoing projects is the FPGA+firmware part of a network distributed 'oscilloscope' used for data acquisition purposes.
I build my (edit:) first oscilloscope from a LED VU meter kit which also had a linear mode. I added a 16x8 LED matrix which showed the input signal over time by sampling the output of the chip on the VU meter kit. Not long after that I got a real scope for my 14th birthday.
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The HMO has everything unlocked exept bandwidth i think, thats why its nice you dont have to hack it, at least i dont see why i need the bandwidth.
Is that so? Then why does that shop you link to list all the wonderful decoding upgrades for the HMO, priced at €200 to €500 each?
Look i found this site : https://www.soselectronic.com/products/rohde-schwarz/hmo-1002-165549 (https://www.soselectronic.com/products/rohde-schwarz/hmo-1002-165549)
Anyone know this site ?, its weird, they have only 1 out of many scopes in stock,
Indeed, an unusual selection of stock items. They seem to be a subsidiary of Conrad Electronic, mainly for Eastern Europe, hence are probably for real. If you are in the market for a Hameg/R&S scope, it can't hurt to ask them for their prices on the non-stock models?
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The hardware of a scope is pretty easy compared to the user interface software.
Programming is the fun part, i used to making games.