Searching for a HP 1630 HP 1631 inverse assembler files.

[harrimansat]

Hi,

I´m playing with my old logic analyzer. Now is connected to my PC with windows 8 and a HP USB to GPIB. Now I can send and read configurations, and data waveforms. And I can send some of the inverse assembler files that I have, and it works.

But I can't make work HP 10391B Inverse Assembler Development Package, neither with my old XP computer, it needs a serial connection with LA, HP-IL. And assembler files exe doesn't work properly.

Anyone has inverse assembler files for this analyser?
Anyone has experience doing inverse assembler files for this LA, there is some way to make inverse assembler files for the LA with out connection?

Thanks
Regards

[Andy Watson]

And I can send some of the inverse assembler files that I have, and it works.

How ? I have a 1630 and have managed to upload and download configurations but I could not find any details about uploading things like the inverse assembler.

Sorry, I can't help with the assemblers - I only have the same 10391B software - and I'm running Linux.

[harrimansat]

Thanks Andy

You can write attached file, 6809 to your LA like it was a configuration file, try it

[Andy Watson]

Thanks. I'll will try pushing that inverse assembler down the gpib next time I fire-up the 1630.

I have just been playing with the ASM.EXE from the inverse assembler tools - I can't get any sense out of it. It seems to run in a dosbox but it can't find the appropriate "table" file. 

[MarkL]

I have just been playing with the ASM.EXE from the inverse assembler tools - I can't get any sense out of it. It seems to run in a dosbox but it can't find the appropriate "table" file.

Are you using this IA package from HP/Agilent/Keysight? :

  http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=sw575&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536900196.536895355&id=sw575

After running the included "INSATLL.BAT", the file "HP64700/TABLES/AIAL.TXT" should be renamed to "HP64700/TABLES/AIAL".  The assembler is hard-coded to look for it.  For some reason they erroneously tacked a ".txt" on that file name in the zip archive.

[harrimansat]

Thanks!!! I will tray it

[MarkL]

Thanks Andy

You can write attached file, 6809 to your LA like it was a configuration file, try it

How did you generate this file?

[harrimansat]

Hi,

It doesn´t works, AIAL file doesn't have any extension. A GPIB guru send me some compiled 1631d inverse assembler files, attached.
Some files must be cropped at beginning and end, it must begin with XX charts.

[MarkL]

Hi,

It doesn´t works, AIAL file doesn't have any extension.
...

Attached is a zip archive of the above Keysight IA that is freshly installed and works; I just tried it.

I don't know how you would run this under windows, but in linux you can unzip this archive in your home directory, run dosbox, and from dosbox compile the I68010 example:

  Z:\>mount c ~/dos/c
  Drive C is mounted as local directory /home/user/dos/c/

  Z:\>c:
  C:\>asm i68010.s

  C:\>

This will create the output files I68010.A and I68010.R in ~/dos/c.  Other options to ASM will get you a listing file, etc.

[harrimansat]

Thanks, ASM works in DOSBOX!

Now the problem is if I can upload R file...i don't have an HP-IL adapter. Is possible to build target file with out RS232 connection?

 

[Andy Watson]

Is possible to build target file with out RS232 connection?

I think that is how the IALDOWN software is intended to work. Page 1-9 of "HP 10391B Inverse Assembler Manual 10039103.pdf" describes setting-up the RS232 on COM 1 or COM 2 of the PC.

This is a page with an interesting link:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-52726.html
I have not yet tried to unpack the Z80 stuff but I believe that the Inverse assembler code is common to 16xx series and it's the communication between the analyser and the IALDOWN program that does the relocation for the specific analyser.

[MarkL]

The 1631D doesn't have an RS232 port (unfortunately), so IALDOWN won't help.

Here's a page makes a reference to a program called "FORMAT.EXE" (a poor choice for a user program name) which is used to convert the .R file to "older" analyzers:

  http://www.rudiswiki.de/wiki9/HP1652InverseAssembler

Download the .R file to the HP1652B Floppy Disk

Because the Inverse Assembler produces a relocatable output file only, it must be adopted to the target Logic Analyzer. In the case of the HP1652B this is done via a RS232 download to the Logic Analyzer , there processed and then written to the floppy disk. On younger Logic Analyzers from HP the program FORMAT.EXE is used to do that off-line in the Analyzer itself.

In addition, the version of IA we all have access to (10391B, v2.00) *implies* that it indeed does not support the 1631D (see attached IA manual snippet, "TASK will always be 5 or greater.").  Perhaps a previous version of the IA package is what's needed and provides "FORMAT.EXE".

You could also try setting up the HPDrive emulator:

  http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/

and see if the 1631D recognizes the .R file on virtual drive.  But my guess is it probably wants it to be "formatted" first.


If anyone has figured this out, please post.  I don't have an urgent need for IA on the 1631D, but it has been eluding me too (for years).


EDIT:  I sent email to the author of the page that mentions FORMAT.EXE, and also pointed them here.  I'll share if I get a response.

[MarkL]

...
A GPIB guru send me some compiled 1631d inverse assembler files, attached.
Some files must be cropped at beginning and end, it must begin with XX charts.

Thanks for the archive of IA files.  These look like they were from the disk that came with the HP 10342B bus preprocessor, plus a couple of other files.

There are two types of files: One that starts with XX which is an undocumented command to load inverse assemblers into the 1631D (and similar), and others that begin with RC.  The RC files are "learn string" configuration files to set up the signal assignments (see programmer manual for details).  It would make sense that to use the 10342B you would need to load both the config and inverse assembler files for a particular protocol.

I've attached a zip file that has the pure XX and RC files extracted from your originals.  Files ending with "c" are the RC files, and "i" are the XX (inverse assembler) files.  I tested these with my 1631D and they load without error, but I didn't try to use them. (Except for I68000P8i, where I got a displayed error: Not 1631D Compatible.)

With other HP analyzers, there's a naming convention that a "P" at the end means for use with general purpose probing, and "I" means for use with a preprocessor.  Seems likely that's the case here too (eg., I6809P vs. I6809I).

At this point I'm just posting what I know in the hopes that we can collectively figure this out, namely how to go from the IA assembler to the 163x analyzers.  We now know we can load "XX" IA files into the 163x series.  I think we just need to get from the .R format to a binary that starts with "XX".

[harrimansat]

http://www.massmind.org/techref/postbot.asp?by=thread&id=%25Analyser%25&w=body&tgt=top

Hi,
  I know a few folks here own HP 1600-series logic analysers, so I hope this
 isn't stretching the boundaries of on-topicness too much..

  I've just hacked together a little symbol loader for the 1651B. All it does
 is read a text file full of "LABEL = $F00D" format lines, then loads them all
 into the 1651B's symbol table. Very handy when debugging microprocessor
 systems with one of these analysers (especially when you've got an inverse
 assembler for the target CPU).

  In addition to that, I've also thrown together a 6502 inverse assembler for
 the 1651B (though it *should* work on the other 1650 and 16500 series
 machines too). It understands all the Western Design Center 65C02S "extra"
 instructions, and should (in theory at least) work with raw 6502 and Rockwell
 65C02 code as well.
  Oh, and it calculates the actual target of relative addresses, too. And
 cross-references addresses against the analyser's symbol table (see above)

  Now for the icing on the cake - I've also written an inverse assembler
 downloader. The old IALDOWN util that HP released with the Inverse Assembler
 Toolkit won't work on anything faster than a PC/AT (IIRC), so I grabbed a
 copy of the 1650B Programmer's Manual and threw together a Windows-based
 (although it could be ported to Linux console-mode easily enough) tool to
 replace IALDOWN.

  OK, so the million dollar question is, should I clean up the code for these
 apps and release them? Does anyone else use one of these analysers, or am I
 the only person on the planet who considers a 1651B to be "good enough"?

  Has anyone else written any little tools or analyser addons like these?
  What about inverse assemblers?
 I've seen the 8008 disassembler Jim Kearney wrote, but that seems to be about
 it...

  Licence will probably be a BSD derivative - along the lines of "Use it as
 much as you like and for whatever you want as long as you credit me in
 whatever you derive from it, and change the name of your app."

  IALDown32 was written with Delphi 3, the symbol table uploader was written
 in ANSI C using mingw32 (read: GCC with a Win32 twist).

 Thanks.
 --
 Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpemspamphilpem.me.uk              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
 ... :.::: ::..: ::.::.  :..:: Tagline in Braille

[MarkL]

Thanks for the linked posts, harrimansat.

The 165x is quite a different beast from the older 163x.

After reading the above posts, I was curious what IALDOWN might be doing with the 165x that we could leverage for the 163x.  I was hoping that maybe there would be some conversion of the .R format into something more useful.  But the answer is it's not doing anything.

IALDOWN simply downloads the .R file to the 165x analyzer.  Any further linking or conversion to bytecode is done on the 165x itself.

IALDOWN uses the MMEM command to do the transfer, which is documented in the 1650B programmer manual.  The data it sends out the COM port looks like this (for example):

  MMEM:DOWNLOAD "filename" ,"description",-15614,#800004875<type-byte><.R file>

Where:

  "filename" and "description" are what the user typed at the IALDOWN prompts

  -15614 means file type is Inverse Assembler

  00004875 is the length in decimal of the following binary block

  <type-byte> is the user response to the "Invasm" Field Options:

    0xff if the answer was "A"
    0x00 if the answer was "B"
    0x01 if the answer was "C"
    0x02 if the answer was "D"

  <.R file> is the contents of the .R file (in this example I8085.R, which is 4874 bytes long)


So, this is no help at all for the 1631D and its required "XX" format.


One of the above posts you linked mentions that the utilities for the 1631D were never sold to customers.  I've searched the HP catalog archives from when the 163x was introduced until it was phased out, and I believe that is correct.  There is only mention of the 10391A/B development package in relation to the 165x, which we already know about.

I think the ability to do this for the 1631D may be lost to time.


You said you got those IA files from a "GPIB guru".  Some of those files are in 1631D "XX" format and they don't look like they are from the original disks, namely TEST44c.#fffe and testc.#fffe.  This implies that whoever created them might have access to the utilities, or know how the conversion can be done.

Can you ask whoever it was?

[harrimansat]

Hi

This is the guy who sent my the files:

http://www.dalton.ax/hp1631d/

http://www.dalton.ax/gpib/

[harrimansat]

I´m trying to understand because manual talks about 1631, may be we need a older asm file.

[Andy Watson]

The note at the bottom of page B-19 says that the 1630's are restricted to the option B and also not to use the INITIAL FLAGS or INITIAL OPTIONS.

The HP 1630 family of logic analyzers do not support options C and D
of the download program IALDOWN. Only the simple
synchronization using option B is available with these instruments. If
the source code will also be used for the HP 1630A/D/G or
HP 1631A/D, do not use the INITIAL_FLAGS or
INITIAL_OPTIONS communication variables.

I would guess that the assembler is ok but you need to be careful which options and features you use.

[MarkL]

I´m trying to understand because manual talks about 1631, may be we need a older asm file.

I think so also.  We may need 10391A (instead of the B version), but I'm still not seeing any reference in the old catalogs that says the A version is ok for the 163x series.  What we seek could be a differently numbered product (which I haven't been able to identify), or perhaps buried in a related package that was available for one of their old microcomputers.

If I were to venture guess, I think at some point HP decided to productize their internal tool, which is what they used to create the pre-defined inverse assemblers for the 163x series.  The 163x appears in the documentation because 1) they had to produce documentation for their own internal developers and/or, 2) they provided the tools to certain third parties to outsource IA development.  Once the development kit was productized and orderable by regular customers, it was decided not to support the 163x and those utilities were omitted, but the 163x still appeared in the documentation.  Again, I'm only guessing.

I'm hoping someone has a copy of the needed utility left over from long ago.

But if you really need inverse assembly now, 165x analyzers which are compatible with the 10391B development package can be had for < $100, and much more capable analyzers which are also compatible, such as the 16700B series, are typically a few hundred $$.

[MarkL]

The note at the bottom of page B-19 says that the 1630's are restricted to the option B and also not to use the INITIAL FLAGS or INITIAL OPTIONS.

The HP 1630 family of logic analyzers do not support options C and D
of the download program IALDOWN. Only the simple
synchronization using option B is available with these instruments. If
the source code will also be used for the HP 1630A/D/G or
HP 1631A/D, do not use the INITIAL_FLAGS or
INITIAL_OPTIONS communication variables.

I would guess that the assembler is ok but you need to be careful which options and features you use.

I think you're right.  We can create a fully compatible .R file for a 1630A/D/G, but we just can't get it converted/linked/whatevered into "XX" format.

It's also an odd statement in the manual regarding IALDOWN and the 1630A/D/G.  The 1630A/D/G has no RS232 capability at all, so it's fundamentally incompatible with IALDOWN.

Maybe there was an HPIB or HP-IL version of IALDOWN that worked with the 163x?

[MarkL]

I said:

You said you got those IA files from a "GPIB guru".  Some of those files are in 1631D "XX" format and they don't look like they are from the original disks, namely TEST44c.#fffe and testc.#fffe.  This implies that whoever created them might have access to the utilities, or know how the conversion can be done.

Oops, I have to take that back about those extra files.

The two files, TEST44c.#fffe and testc.#fffe, end with "c" and are *configuration* files (consistent with what I wrote before).  They start with RC, not XX.  It's easy to create those with the TC (Transmit Configuration) HPIB command.

So, it's NOT evidence someone has created a custom inverse assembler for a 163x.  Bummer.

[gslick]

I have original HP 3.5-inch floppies for the 8085 Inverse Assembler for the 1630A/D/G and 1631A/D part number 10304-13012, and the 10342 Bus Preprocessor Inverse Assembler for the 1630A/D/G and 1631A/D part number 10342-13012.

[AndersG]

If you have those disks, then can you please create LIF-files out of those and post? Someone could then just extract the individual files, using HPDir or put them on an SD card for HPDisk.

I think that I am the "guru" referred to earlier and yes, the files that begin with TEST* or DALT* are indeed just test files. I simply grabbed one of the LIF images I had used.

I am definitely not a "guru", just a humble hobbyist that happen to own a 1631D, I also have the 10269 for the 680x-processors. I did put together a small page for the 1631D with tips on how to create new connectors for the pods for example.

Thanks for all the valuable input in this thread!

[gslick]

If you have those disks, then can you please create LIF-files out of those and post? Someone could then just extract the individual files, using HPDir or put them on an SD card for HPDisk.

Attached are images of the part number 10304-13012 and 10342-13012 3.5-inch floppies.

c:\HPDir\Hpdir.exe -list 10304.hpi
                           SYS  FILE   NUMBER   RECORD     MODIFIED    PUB OPEN
FILE NAME             LEV TYPE  TYPE  RECORDS   LENGTH DATE       TIME ACC STAT
===================== === ==== ===== ======== ======== =============== === ====
COPYFILEx               1 98X6 #fffe       30      256 15-Aug-85 16:20
I8085IPi                1 98X6 #fffe        9      256 13-Jun-84 07:41

274176 of 284160 bytes free.

c:\HPDir\Hpdir.exe -list 10342.hpi
                           SYS  FILE   NUMBER   RECORD     MODIFIED    PUB OPEN
FILE NAME             LEV TYPE  TYPE  RECORDS   LENGTH DATE       TIME ACC STAT
===================== === ==== ===== ======== ======== =============== === ====
COPYFILEx               1 98X6 #fffe       30      256 15-Aug-85 16:20
IHPIBc                  1 98X6 #fffe       21      256 25-Jul-85 07:04
IHPIBi                  1 98X6 #fffe        6      256 24-May-85 10:23
IHPIBGc                 1 98X6 #fffe       22      256 25-Jul-85 06:55
IRS232Cc                1 98X6 #fffe       21      256 24-Jul-85 08:12
IRS232Ci                1 98X6 #fffe       16      256 22-Jul-85 10:51
IRS232Gc                1 98X6 #fffe       22      256 24-Jul-85 08:32
IRS449c                 1 98X6 #fffe       21      256 25-Jul-85 08:23
IRS449i                 1 98X6 #fffe       16      256 22-Jul-85 10:52
IRS449Gc                1 98X6 #fffe       22      256 24-Jul-85 08:35

233728 of 284160 bytes free.

[harrimansat]

Thanks for your post, wich type of HPDIR  do you use, mine doesn´t works