Author Topic: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO  (Read 29626 times)

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Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2020, 02:13:42 am »

Nope ! It's a 1GHz bandwidth scope that can't display 1GHz and that has an ENOB of 8 bits or less even though it claims 12 bits !

If it was a Tek scope a few of them on here would be all over it bagging the crap out of it !

Hi Snoopy

I do agree with you so to keep things in perspective an image of the LeCroy Wavepro 254 meeting its 2.5Ghz bandwidth @ -3db with the 12 bits and no high resolution filter added.


Because I'm not one to continuously bash a particular test equipment vendor because of preconceived biases, in fairness to Lecroy, later on they did bring out the HDO4000A scope with higher sampling rate (from 2.5Gs/s to 10GG/s probably by combining all 4 ADC's) although this particular 4000 series scope does have equivalent or repetitive time sampling up to 125 Gs/s so it should have been able to display a 1GHz sinewave if it was switched on that is, or did the Keysight dude conveniently switch it off ?

Lecroy HDO4000 datasheet

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/hdo4000_oscilloscope_datasheet.pdf

Lecroy HDO4000A datasheet

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/hdo4000a-oscilloscopes-datasheet.pdf

cheers

« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 02:42:18 am by snoopy »
 
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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2020, 11:03:59 am »
I hate to say this, but the "enhanced sampling rate" in the HDO4000A is a marketing ruse as well:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/enhanced-sample-rate-whitepaper.pdf
I understand the HDO4000A still uses 2.5GSa/s (5GSa/s interleaved) but interpolates samples inbetween to "enhance" the sample rate.

About the Keysight video: as far as I could see, there is only one channel active, so I guess interleaved 5GSa/s were used.
Still, when comparing a 5GSa/s scope with a 20GSa/s scope you will easily find cases where the one with the four times lower sampling rate shows its limits.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 
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Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2020, 01:29:44 pm »
I hate to say this, but the "enhanced sampling rate" in the HDO4000A is a marketing ruse as well:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/enhanced-sample-rate-whitepaper.pdf
I understand the HDO4000A still uses 2.5GSa/s (5GSa/s interleaved) but interpolates samples inbetween to "enhance" the sample rate.

About the Keysight video: as far as I could see, there is only one channel active, so I guess interleaved 5GSa/s were used.
Still, when comparing a 5GSa/s scope with a 20GSa/s scope you will easily find cases where the one with the four times lower sampling rate shows its limits.

Regarding the HDO4000, Lecroy should have really band-limited this scope to 500MHz and not 1Ghz ie 1/5th the max ADC sample rate ;)

cheers
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2020, 01:49:05 pm »
5GSa/s interleaved is not totally uncommon for 1GHz scopes but yeah, personally I'd rather have 10GSa/s or so. Again, Keysight could have chosen a scope in the same price/performance league or selected test scenarios where the the LeCroy would have looked much better (even better than the Keysight in certain cases). Besides, the ENOB comparison looks like BS. I guess they compared measured system values of the LeCroy with theoretical ADC (not system) values fo the Keysight.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline egonotto

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2020, 04:14:52 pm »
Hello,

snoopy wrote: "Regarding the HDO4000, Lecroy should have really band-limited this scope to 500MHz and not 1Ghz ie 1/5th the max ADC sample rate"

As I remember right, a staff of Pico Technology mean that the better rise time is the reason.

And that convinced me.

Best regards
egonotto


 

Offline PixieDust

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #155 on: October 28, 2022, 07:14:15 am »
I'm far from an expert but looking at the oscilloscope landscape right now based on what people are saying on these forums:
Tektronix seems to be a brand to be steered clear of for many reasons. However, I think the 3 series form factor is pretty much the perfect scope (for me). I REALLY like the big screen and its layout. I think form factor wise, it's what a modern scope should be like!
Keysight seems to be the brand to go to on the basis of what is inside the scope and the software, however the small screen is a big turn off for me. When Keysight released their current line up, my first reaction was, "how do you fit all the stuff on that screen?". Maybe it's a non issue. But then there's rumours of non business customers being left in the dark in terms of servicing/support.
R&S has some quirks and similarly small screen to the Keysight.
Lecroy is just a rebranded Siglent or some other scope? Sure people are saying Siglents are good hardware wise and Lecroy fills in the gaps with its good software. Even still, I don't know if I can forgive it for being a rebranded scope.

So based on all this, personally, I give the large screen a big weight and Tektronix comes out on top. But the fact that its just a freshened up MDO 3000 (released in 2014) and as some forum members have suggested that it's not even an MDO is just... how? what? why? The price just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess there's no perfect scope.

Keysight are the next in line to release the next gen stuff and maybe it'll have a more modern form factor. I'd be interested in that.

But again, I know very little about this stuff, so take my bumblings with a big pinch of salt.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2022, 07:16:31 am »
Quote
Lecroy is just a rebranded Siglent

Depends on the money you're willing to spend for...  8)

Offline PixieDust

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2022, 07:19:51 am »
My market of interest would be 3 series equivalent not the $1M stuff ;).
 

Online Martin72

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2022, 08:54:53 am »
We've payed appx 13k€ with "huge" discount for the very good HDO6034A in 2019, maybe it could be even cheaper today.
And this was not a rebranded siglent....  ;)

« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 08:56:44 am by Martin72 »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2022, 09:48:12 am »
I'm far from an expert but looking at the oscilloscope landscape right now based on what people are saying on these forums:
Tektronix seems to be a brand to be steered clear of for many reasons. However, I think the 3 series form factor is pretty much the perfect scope (for me). I REALLY like the big screen and its layout. I think form factor wise, it's what a modern scope should be like!
Keysight seems to be the brand to go to on the basis of what is inside the scope and the software, however the small screen is a big turn off for me. When Keysight released their current line up, my first reaction was, "how do you fit all the stuff on that screen?". Maybe it's a non issue. But then there's rumours of non business customers being left in the dark in terms of servicing/support.
R&S has some quirks and similarly small screen to the Keysight.
Lecroy is just a rebranded Siglent or some other scope? Sure people are saying Siglents are good hardware wise and Lecroy fills in the gaps with its good software. Even still, I don't know if I can forgive it for being a rebranded scope.

So based on all this, personally, I give the large screen a big weight and Tektronix comes out on top. But the fact that its just a freshened up MDO 3000 (released in 2014) and as some forum members have suggested that it's not even an MDO is just... how? what? why? The price just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess there's no perfect scope.

Keysight are the next in line to release the next gen stuff and maybe it'll have a more modern form factor. I'd be interested in that.

But again, I know very little about this stuff, so take my bumblings with a big pinch of salt.

Yes there are no perfect things in general...

First, what BW are we talking about?

Second, I'm sorry to break the news to you, but lower end devices (3000 series class or down) are nowadays being better served by non big names.
Fact that LeCroy is charging much more for a Siglent made device is not an insult to LeCroy but a testament that you should buy that class of devices from Siglent. Rigol used to be OEM for Keysight for lower segment scopes.
Those two companies make decent products for affordable money in that device class.

Nowadays you only need to buy from the Tek, Keysight, LeCroy and R&S only when you transition into mid and higher end devices. A brands have wealth of knowledge and experience in making T&M solutions. But they are very meticulous to make sure NONE of that even trickles to their lower end devices. They need you to pay for it.
So you might end up with, for instance, a Keysight scope that is (deliberately) made to be crippled so you have to buy their higher class scope. While still being much more expensive than better scopes from the likes of Rigol and Siglent.
For the price Tek asks for 3000 series , you can get 2 GHz scopes from Rigol and Siglent..

Keysight recently released new EXR and MXR series, their latest iteration of 1000 series that actually makes old 2000 series look bad, and new MSOX3000G, that is same old 3000T with black case and few software options for free.
And that is all innovation you'll get. Why? Because they really don't care about 3000 range and down. They will happily sell you the old one for as long as there are buyers, but they really want you to buy MXR/EXR. Those replaced both 4000 and 6000 and upper models... They are modular, support up to 8 ch, and all use same ADC acquistion architecture in many permutations. And those are serious upgrade to models they replaced, on market they care for.

Same logic prevails in LeCroy, Tek and R&S.
Meaning, there is lots of innovation form them, but only at market segment you (and me) cannot afford.
On market segment we are interested in, innovation comes from newcomers fighting to get recognized. And those usually put much more effort and work harder to prove themselves. My personal choice is that I decided to give them a chance.

Because with big brands I started to feel like a poor man in a expensive restaurant: what was supposed to be a special treat to me for special occasion ended up me feeling stupid that I gave my whole monthly salary for a meal that wasn't that special (because i couldn't afford any of really fancy stuff)  and they couldn't wait for me to go away, because I wasn't spending nearly as much as those rich people do and I was taking up a table....
 
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Online tv84

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #160 on: October 28, 2022, 10:12:58 am »
Because with big brands I started to feel like a poor man in a expensive restaurant: what was supposed to be a special treat to me for special occasion ended up me feeling stupid that I gave my whole monthly salary for a meal that wasn't that special (because i couldn't afford any of really fancy stuff)  and they couldn't wait for me to go away, because I wasn't spending nearly as much as those rich people do and I was taking up a table....

Been there...  :palm:
 
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Offline Domitronic

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #161 on: October 28, 2022, 11:15:38 am »

Tek 3 Series was a good deal while on special offer. Last year and beginning of this year you could get the 350MHz model with all options for less than 5k€ plus tax. For the regular pricing i would only buy it because of current probes and differential probes we already have. If there is no need to connect TekVPI probes there are other options from other manufacturers.

Keep in mind that while it is a nice form factor the software ruins the user experience pretty much. It is really slow and laggy. And annoying bugs were introduced with the latest firmware update.

But personal taste matters as well. We have Tek 3/4/5, Keysight 3000G and some older Teks. Many people always grab one of the Teks, but some always choose the Keysight for daily work. So if possible try before buy.

On paper the Wavesurfer 4000HD looks pretty good as well in my opinion and still has decent pricing compared to Tek and Keysight. But it was ruled out before even trying because we already have 2 brands and didn't want to introduce a third one. So i have no experience with it.

And as a hobbyist i would not spend so much money for a new Tek/Keysight/LeCroy scope. 2N3055 described it pretty good in his post.
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2022, 12:09:38 am »
As in the later 2019 the two new lecroy scopes at work arrived and I got to play with them for the first time, my actual scope at home at this time are so...so...It feels like to have a comparison between the LCD-Handheld games in the 80s vs a nintendo handheld of today.
Waverunner and HDO are simply another league, compared to my former scope(rigol 5000) not even on the same planet.
But both will cost at least a 5-digit € sum... ;)
And support is on another level too.
Before I´ve bought a wavesurfer in 2018.
When ever I got a question about the waverunner or the HDO, I surely get an answer inbetween 48hrs via mail or phonecall.
Wavesurfer....It could last weeks before you got response.
BTW: Don´t buy a WS3000 scope without "Z" at the end of the name.
Never, regardless of how attractive the offer is.
Simply trust me.. ;)
 
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Offline PixieDust

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2022, 01:57:59 am »
We've payed appx 13k€ with "huge" discount for the very good HDO6034A in 2019, maybe it could be even cheaper today.
And this was not a rebranded siglent....  ;)

That's out of my price range. Nice big screen though :-+.

First, what BW are we talking about?

I think the 350Mhz would suit me just fine. But I'm also looking for ARINC 429.

Second, I'm sorry to break the news to you, but lower end devices (3000 series class or down) are nowadays being better served by non big names.
Fact that LeCroy is charging much more for a Siglent made device is not an insult to LeCroy but a testament that you should buy that class of devices from Siglent. Rigol used to be OEM for Keysight for lower segment scopes.
Those two companies make decent products for affordable money in that device class.

Nowadays you only need to buy from the Tek, Keysight, LeCroy and R&S only when you transition into mid and higher end devices. A brands have wealth of knowledge and experience in making T&M solutions. But they are very meticulous to make sure NONE of that even trickles to their lower end devices. They need you to pay for it.
So you might end up with, for instance, a Keysight scope that is (deliberately) made to be crippled so you have to buy their higher class scope. While still being much more expensive than better scopes from the likes of Rigol and Siglent.
For the price Tek asks for 3000 series , you can get 2 GHz scopes from Rigol and Siglent..

Keysight recently released new EXR and MXR series, their latest iteration of 1000 series that actually makes old 2000 series look bad, and new MSOX3000G, that is same old 3000T with black case and few software options for free.
And that is all innovation you'll get. Why? Because they really don't care about 3000 range and down. They will happily sell you the old one for as long as there are buyers, but they really want you to buy MXR/EXR. Those replaced both 4000 and 6000 and upper models... They are modular, support up to 8 ch, and all use same ADC acquistion architecture in many permutations. And those are serious upgrade to models they replaced, on market they care for.

Same logic prevails in LeCroy, Tek and R&S.
Meaning, there is lots of innovation form them, but only at market segment you (and me) cannot afford.
On market segment we are interested in, innovation comes from newcomers fighting to get recognized. And those usually put much more effort and work harder to prove themselves. My personal choice is that I decided to give them a chance.

Because with big brands I started to feel like a poor man in a expensive restaurant: what was supposed to be a special treat to me for special occasion ended up me feeling stupid that I gave my whole monthly salary for a meal that wasn't that special (because i couldn't afford any of really fancy stuff)  and they couldn't wait for me to go away, because I wasn't spending nearly as much as those rich people do and I was taking up a table....

Noted.

Tek 3 Series was a good deal while on special offer. Last year and beginning of this year you could get the 350MHz model with all options for less than 5k€ plus tax. For the regular pricing i would only buy it because of current probes and differential probes we already have. If there is no need to connect TekVPI probes there are other options from other manufacturers.

Keep in mind that while it is a nice form factor the software ruins the user experience pretty much. It is really slow and laggy. And annoying bugs were introduced with the latest firmware update.

But personal taste matters as well. We have Tek 3/4/5, Keysight 3000G and some older Teks. Many people always grab one of the Teks, but some always choose the Keysight for daily work. So if possible try before buy.

On paper the Wavesurfer 4000HD looks pretty good as well in my opinion and still has decent pricing compared to Tek and Keysight. But it was ruled out before even trying because we already have 2 brands and didn't want to introduce a third one. So i have no experience with it.

And as a hobbyist i would not spend so much money for a new Tek/Keysight/LeCroy scope. 2N3055 described it pretty good in his post.

$5k€ sounds not too shabby.

Would definitely be nice to try one in the flesh. Pictures and marketing material make the product seem a certain way that reality doesn't reflect. Even the 5 series that Shahriar reviewed didn't look that good in terms of responsiveness.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 05:00:10 am by PixieDust »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2022, 04:34:35 am »
And as a hobbyist i would not spend so much money for a new Tek/Keysight/LeCroy scope. 2N3055 described it pretty good in his post.

You wouldn't buy any of those brands as a hobbyist, unless you had cash to burn, had a special requirement, or could get a great bundle/used deal.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #165 on: October 29, 2022, 04:39:10 am »
I'm far from an expert but looking at the oscilloscope landscape right now based on what people are saying on these forums:
Tektronix seems to be a brand to be steered clear of for many reasons. However, I think the 3 series form factor is pretty much the perfect scope (for me). I REALLY like the big screen and its layout. I think form factor wise, it's what a modern scope should be like!
Keysight seems to be the brand to go to on the basis of what is inside the scope and the software, however the small screen is a big turn off for me. When Keysight released their current line up, my first reaction was, "how do you fit all the stuff on that screen?". Maybe it's a non issue. But then there's rumours of non business customers being left in the dark in terms of servicing/support.
R&S has some quirks and similarly small screen to the Keysight.

The new R&S MXO4 scope I have is pretty amazing, albeit it did lock up on my first use with early firmware!
I haven't done a detailed comparison, but I believe it's base price ($8k) is not far of a similar Keysight 3000, and in that case there is absolutely no contest, the R&S blows it out of the park.

 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #166 on: October 29, 2022, 04:39:20 am »
And as a hobbyist i would not spend so much money for a new Tek/Keysight/LeCroy scope. 2N3055 described it pretty good in his post.

You wouldn't buy any of those brands as a hobbyist, unless you had cash to burn, had a special requirement, or could get a great bundle/used deal.

Or got a good deal and couldn't resist attempting a bw hack  >:D
VE7FM
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #167 on: October 29, 2022, 09:11:02 am »
And as a hobbyist i would not spend so much money for a new Tek/Keysight/LeCroy scope. 2N3055 described it pretty good in his post.

You wouldn't buy any of those brands as a hobbyist, unless you had cash to burn, had a special requirement, or could get a great bundle/used deal.

Or got a good deal and couldn't resist attempting a bw hack  >:D

Or that!
It's trivial for example to hack a Tek MDO3000 to get everything.
 

Online tv84

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #168 on: October 29, 2022, 09:35:12 am »
Or that!
It's trivial for example to hack a Tek MDO3000 to get everything.

As easy as a MDO3.  >:D
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #169 on: October 29, 2022, 10:31:39 am »
Or that!
It's trivial for example to hack a Tek MDO3000 to get everything.
As easy as a MDO3.  >:D

Has that been done already?  ;D
 

Online tv84

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #170 on: October 29, 2022, 11:16:24 am »
 

Offline PixieDust

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #171 on: October 29, 2022, 12:05:20 pm »
Thanks to Dave, I spent perhaps an hour looking at R&S scopes today. Perhaps my dislike of their physical appearance needs to take a step back. Price wise they are not too shabby. Performance wise they look like a nice bit of kit. I’ll look into them some more now.

In Tektronix’s defence, they provide all the manuals including service manuals right on their site. Admittedly it’s not that useful since you need some serious equipment to performance test/calibrate the instruments which is not something I want to get into, but still, something to be mindful of.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 12:07:06 pm by PixieDust »
 


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