Should I buy a Rigol MSO5000?

[petemate]

Hi guys, I have the almost mandatory DS1054Z which covers many of my needs, but I have started to consider purchasing an MSO5000 for better performance and a function generator(which I don't have in my "lab").

I would probaby buy the MSO5074(to get four probes) and then hack it to all options, which will set me back around 1100 EUR. Thats completely doable, as far as I can tell. Then I'll sell my DS1054Z, which can bring in just short of 300 EUR, bringing my total expenses to 800 EUR for a nice-spec scope and a function generator. I know the function generator isn't up to par with a separate unit(its only 5Vpp), but its most likely enough for me(I need line-level audio signals and perhaps some PWM stuff for SMPS control).


What are your opinions of the MSO5000 series? I am especially interested in the front-end overdrive recovery, which is apparently much better than competing scopes and allows you to measure low-voltage signals superimposed onto high-voltage signals(e.g. drain-source on voltage on a switching node). The EEVBlog review sort of knocks it for firmware bugs, but I assume that most of those are fixed now?

[nctnico]

If you want to buy a scope with a lot of bugs and wait years before they are fixed then the MSO5000 is for you. If you want an oscilloscope which works as specified out of the box on the day you unpack it then look at a different brand.

I've been down this road a couple of years ago; having a buggy piece of equipment and no idea when it will be fixed is frustrating like hell. I ended throwing a 2500 EUR scope in the trash AND buying a scope from a more expensive brand. That was a big waste of money. Also you are way too optimistic about the resale price of the DS1054. Count on half if you are lucky.

[0culus]

I have no opinions on the MSO itself, but I'd advise looking for a better quality function generator that isn't part of another instrument.

[petemate]

If you want to buy a scope with a lot of bugs and wait years before they are fixed then the MSO5000 is for you. If you want an oscilloscope which works as specified out of the box on the day you unpack it then look at a different brand.

I've been down this road a couple of years ago; having a buggy piece of equipment and no idea when it will be fixed is frustrating like hell. I ended throwing a 2500 EUR scope in the trash AND buying a scope from a more expensive brand. That was a big waste of money. Also you are way too optimistic about the resale price of the DS1054. Count on half if you are lucky.

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

[petemate]

I have no opinions on the MSO itself, but I'd advise looking for a better quality function generator that isn't part of another instrument.

In principle I agree, but I have realized that I very rarely need anything more than whats included here.

[TK]

I've been down this road a couple of weeks ago, the MSO5074 was giving me headache and high blood pressure... I don't know why... if it is the sluggishness, the LCD being too DIM... You need to be very patient and do lots of measurements comparing it to other "reliable" scopes to know what you are getting from it.  I returned it and went back to my Keysight 1000X series and the micsig TO1104.  Just out of curiosity, I ordered a DS1054Z from the Rigol clearance center for $275... If it gives me the same symptoms, then it will go to eBay...

[nctnico]

If you want to buy a scope with a lot of bugs and wait years before they are fixed then the MSO5000 is for you. If you want an oscilloscope which works as specified out of the box on the day you unpack it then look at a different brand.

I've been down this road a couple of years ago; having a buggy piece of equipment and no idea when it will be fixed is frustrating like hell. I ended throwing a 2500 EUR scope in the trash AND buying a scope from a more expensive brand. That was a big waste of money. Also you are way too optimistic about the resale price of the DS1054. Count on half if you are lucky.

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

Just look at the DS1054Z, DS2000 and DS4000 threads. It took Rigol years to fix the bugs in these scopes. Do your research! There is enough information on this forum.

[TK]

I have no opinions on the MSO itself, but I'd advise looking for a better quality function generator that isn't part of another instrument.

In principle I agree, but I have realized that I very rarely need anything more than whats included here.

I saw the EDUX1002A (2+1 channels) for $390 at newark the other day... if you can hack it to DSOX1102G and add the missing components for the function generator, you will have the chance to experience a real scope.  And in the process of "upgrading" it, you can have some fun

https://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/edux1002a/digital-storage-osc-50mhz-2-ch/dp/06AC0358?st=edux1002A

[0culus]

I have no opinions on the MSO itself, but I'd advise looking for a better quality function generator that isn't part of another instrument.

In principle I agree, but I have realized that I very rarely need anything more than whats included here.

Unless you need maximum mobility (fixing things at someone's house for instance), I don't see why that matters.

[TK]

If you want to buy a scope with a lot of bugs and wait years before they are fixed then the MSO5000 is for you. If you want an oscilloscope which works as specified out of the box on the day you unpack it then look at a different brand.

I've been down this road a couple of years ago; having a buggy piece of equipment and no idea when it will be fixed is frustrating like hell. I ended throwing a 2500 EUR scope in the trash AND buying a scope from a more expensive brand. That was a big waste of money. Also you are way too optimistic about the resale price of the DS1054. Count on half if you are lucky.

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

Maybe not 150 EUR, but you are not going to get 300 EUR neither...

[Fungus]

...

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

He's one of the resident Rigol haters. Safely ignorable.

[TK]

...

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

He's one of the resident Rigol haters. Safely ignorable.

And I am becoming the next one... I admit I was a Keysight and micsig fan, but not a Rigol hater, before I tested the MSO5074...   

[Fungus]

And I am becoming the next one... I admit I was a Keysight and micsig fan, but not a Rigol hater, before I tested the MSO5074... 

Maybe Keysight is a tough/expensive act to follow but there's two long threads full of happy Rigol MSO5000 owners here.

Every new 'scope has teething problems, that's just the way it is. Look at the threads on here for all other brands (the ones ntnico isn't pointing you to).

It wasn't too long ago that Siglent was sending out little bags of capacitors for people to solder inside their 'scopes after purchase. If that little "oopsie" had been by Rigol there would be endless threads about it here, but, noooooo, it's Siglent so it's never mentioned.

[EEVblog]

It wasn't too long ago that Siglent was sending out little bags of capacitors for people to solder inside their 'scopes after purchase. If that little "oopsie" had been by Rigol there would be endless threads about it here, but, noooooo, it's Siglent so it's never mentioned.

I haven't been following, what was that for?

There is no doubt that the big names like Keysight, R&S etc are much more polished product and generally more enjoyable to use in small ways and support is way better, but the Siglents and the Rigols will ultimately get the job done and will be better bang-per-buck, depends on what you value.

[metrologist]

...

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

He's one of the resident Rigol haters. Safely ignorable.

I wouldn't accuse or portray the motivation as hate, but rather there is a conflict of interest and potential monetary gain to be had if negative perceptions of Rigol are proliferated.

I think there is no vendetta against Keysight, for example, because of market factors, and doing such would challenge the credibility of these posters.

[TK]

It wasn't too long ago that Siglent was sending out little bags of capacitors for people to solder inside their 'scopes after purchase. If that little "oopsie" had been by Rigol there would be endless threads about it here, but, noooooo, it's Siglent so it's never mentioned.

I haven't been following, what was that for?

There is no doubt that the big names like Keysight, R&S etc are much more polished product and generally more enjoyable to use in small ways and support is way better, but the Siglents and the Rigols will ultimately get the job done and will be better bang-per-buck, depends on what you value.

Siglent had an issue with probe compensation and somebody found out that the scope had a footprint for a capacitor in the front-end that was not populated during manufacturing.  Siglent at the beginning decided to ignore the problem, but then later decided to ship capacitors to the end users for them to self-service the scopes.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1323031/#msg1323031

[luma]

Back on topic, I did the exact thing mentioned in the OP and am very happy for it.  Sold my 1054, picked up the 5074, and am now waiting for the logic probe set too.  I really like the display - it's plenty bright in my workspace with no glare, the touchscreen functionality is handy, and I'm really digging the web interface for quick screengrabs and such.  It's not a perfect scope, but it's a hell of a tool for the price and I have zero regrets.

As usual on the internet, the loudest voices here are going to be the people with something to complain about.  I can't believe some people would spend so much mental energy on "pluses" but here we are...

[TK]

My problem was that I expected something really different for a $999 scope.  It just feels like a DS1054Z plus.  If the DS1054Z and MSO5074 are the only scopes you used, I am sure you will be satisfied.

[bitseeker]

What are your opinions of the MSO5000 series? I am especially interested in the front-end overdrive recovery, which is apparently much better than competing scopes and allows you to measure low-voltage signals superimposed onto high-voltage signals(e.g. drain-source on voltage on a switching node). The EEVBlog review sort of knocks it for firmware bugs, but I assume that most of those are fixed now?

Firmware bugs aren't resolved that fast. They're just in the beginning phase of being discovered and reported. It seems Rigol is responding well to the feedback like they did for the DS1054Z and unlike some of their other models. Nevertheless, the 1054Z still took years to surface and resolve a variety of bugs.

So, the outlook is promising, but unless I had a burning need to upgrade from the 1054Z (I personally don't), I wouldn't get a scope (most test equipment, actually) so early in its life. Ultimately, it depends on your tolerance level to be on the bleeding edge of technology and all that it entails.

[ebastler]

I've been down this road a couple of years ago; having a buggy piece of equipment and no idea when it will be fixed is frustrating like hell. I ended throwing a 2500 EUR scope in the trash AND buying a scope from a more expensive brand. That was a big waste of money.

And that's not even counting the emotional distress which this experience continues to cause you, until today. And the countless hours it took to monitor the EEVBlog forum and compulsively jump in on every Rigol thread. 

[NoisyBoy]

Back to OP's original intend, I think it is dangerous to assume a 5074 can be unlocked for full capability indefinitely.  If you continue to upgrade firmware to get the latest fixes, the hack may or may not work in the future, and you could be back to a 70 MHz scope with no AWG.  I am not saying the 5074 is a bad scope, but counting on hacked features as your basis for upgrade may bring you unexpected disappointment.

The build-in AWG is OK, but definitely not going to beat any standalone AWG out there if you look closer at the spec.  If I were you, I would also consider an alternative of spending much less and just buying a good AWG to add to what you have.  It will give you the flexibility to upgrade each component to exactly what you need when the time comes.

Just something to think about.

[Fungus]

My problem was that I expected something really different for a $999 scope.  It just feels like a DS1054Z plus.
c

I'm not sure what you expected but $999 is exactly "DS1054Z plus" money.

If the DS1054Z and MSO5074 are the only scopes you used, I am sure you will be satisfied.

How much would a 4 channel, 350Mhz bandwidth, 8 GSamples/sec, 400Mb RAM 'scope cost from Keysight/Tek/R&S?

It seems like somebody is comparing the MSO5000 to equivalent spec scopes from high-end players, not equivalent money.

As usual on the internet, the loudest voices here are going to be the people with something to complain about.  I can't believe some people would spend so much mental energy on "pluses" but here we are...

My DS1054Z has shown me four wiggly lines on screen at specified bandwidth from day one. It triggers well, it has plenty of memory, it does a good job at the basic things.

The user interface isn't stellar? The FFT is a bit rubbish? There's a spelling mistake in a menu? I can still sleep at night knowing that.

[Fungus]

Back to OP's original intend, I think it is dangerous to assume a 5074 can be unlocked for full capability indefinitely.

Nah, I think it's a pretty safe bet. The people in the hacking thread simply know too much about the system now.

eg. Rigol changed the root password from the Xilinx default in the latest firmware update? That might have just been to stop it being pwned by botnets.

(b) They've been selling hackable 'scopes for decades when it would have been easy to close the "holes". eg. The DS1054Z would have been nothing without hacking. With hacking they sold a million units (rough estimate based on no data whatsoever).

and, (c) There's no way in hell the MSO5000 can compete in the market without hacking. $5000 for all options? That's a complete joke. $999 for the 70Mhz version? That's almost worse - their competitors sell 200Mhz 'scopes for half that.

[nctnico]

...

Whats your basis for saying the things about it taking years to fix bugs? And I doubt very much you can get a used ds1054z for 150 EUR.

He's one of the resident Rigol haters. Safely ignorable.

I wouldn't accuse or portray the motivation as hate, but rather there is a conflict of interest and potential monetary gain to be had if negative perceptions of Rigol are proliferated.

Not true. If there is anyone with a monetary interest in Rigol it must be Fungus. In every Rigol-ish topic he is the one pretending it is all sunshine and unicorns. Usually pretending that long (10s to 100s of pages long) topics about bugs in Rigol equipment don't even exist.  Perhaps it is time Fungus reveals himself as a Rigol employee.

For clarity: I have no monetary interest in any brand. Just trying to help people make a good choice for themselves by showing the good AND the bad.  As I wrote before it is easy to become 'begeistert' with so many features -on paper- for a low price and lose sight of reality.

The oscilloscope market is just interesting to follow and so far the A-brands don't seem to feel threatened at all.

[ebclr]

All those bugs on Rigol are simple "neurotic people bugs", on a day to day use, you don't feel any of those bugs, I use my 1054 for years, and are very happy, I'm not fool enough to pay 5 times more for brands Like Keysigth, that still have bugs, and everything there is expensive from the probes to the service. It's unquestionable that Rigol and Siglent give more for your money