Author Topic: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter  (Read 12975 times)

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Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« on: February 25, 2016, 12:58:00 pm »
Hi all,
   today my HP 3478A (restoration project) arrived and I suddenly released I have a small issue. All of my test equipment up to now is either Fluke or Keithley, they all have shrouded banana sockets and hence, I only own shrouded test leads (other than a few point to point leads) ie: the pin is surrounded by plastic shield. But these don't fit on the HP .I intend using the HP 3478A, but I don't intend buying a second set of all my test leads / kelvin clips etc, just for this meter. Can someone point me to a simple (cheap) converter / mini- extension to convert the shrouded plug to a non-shrouded type?

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline jwm_

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2016, 01:05:39 pm »
Just buy some 4mm bullet plugs/sockets and solder them  together end to end. works a treat.

something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Sets-4-0mm-4mm-RC-Battery-Gold-plated-Bullet-Connector-Banana-Plug-HOT-GOLD-/172101271586

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2016, 01:07:54 pm »
 

Offline F64098

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2016, 01:15:35 pm »
Why not using the shrouded input terminal of a 34401A?
It has the same pitch of the connectors.
The holes in the front plate of the 3478A must be opened to 11,4mm
but there is enough "flesh" to do so.

Just my idea...

Best regards


Frank
 

Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2016, 01:24:24 pm »
Why not using the shrouded input terminal of a 34401A?
It has the same pitch of the connectors.
The holes in the front plate of the 3478A must be opened to 11,4mm
but there is enough "flesh" to do so.

Just my idea...

Best regards

Frank

A nice neat idea Frank, but how easy is it to find a set of 34401A input terminals?

AlfBazs suggestion is exactly what I was looking for, think I'll just order some of them.

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline F64098

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 02:28:54 pm »
A nice neat idea Frank, but how easy is it to find a set of 34401A input terminals?

Available as spare part: 34401-62121  >:D
contactcenter_germany@keysight.com

HTH

Frank
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 02:29:26 pm »
just cut the damn shrouds off. whoever invented those shrouded banana's should be tarred , feathered, glued to the wall , covered in red ants and left in the sun.

Stupid shrouded wires. compatible with nothing.
i never understood the need for those. i get the 'redice risk of touching . but who swaps out live test wires anyway ? engineers are supposed to have more than one working brain cell.
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Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 03:37:15 pm »
They'd look really ugly if I cut them off. I assume they are to conform to one of the CAT standards, but I'm not CAT expert, but I can kind understand why they are there as I used to do it myself: Testing a live system where the leads were connected with crocodile clips, then you go to change meters and don't want to power down the entire system to do that.

Either way, I ordered those parts from iloveelectronics, so they should have arrived by the time I've finished restoring the HP. Which brings me to another question: The surrounding bezel at the from of the HP is badly scratched and cracked on the top. Can this be fitted upside down so that it's not as obvious? I'm sure I'll find out as soon as I take it apart. If not, maybe I should go looking for a better conditioned one? First up will be to swap the battery and check the accuracy. It's working (Selftest OK), but I haven't checked anything else yet.

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline macboy

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 03:44:04 pm »
You can also get generic safety banana jacks from ebay (etc.) for well under $1 each.
Random example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262127967052
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 03:52:34 pm »
just cut the damn shrouds off. whoever invented those shrouded banana's should be tarred , feathered, glued to the wall , covered in red ants and left in the sun.

Stupid shrouded wires. compatible with nothing.

Yay!  :clap:

It's so refreshing to see the perfect English translation of my exact thoughts about this stuff, which might be justifiable on a building lot, but not in a lab.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 03:54:03 pm »
I recall seeing banana plugs where the shroud can retract itself so it fits both isolated and 'normal' banana sockets.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline commongrounder

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 04:31:39 pm »
These: Mueller BU-32101-0 (black) or -2 (red)
Excellent quality and very inexpensive (around $3.50 US each)
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 04:38:54 pm »
You can get adapters to fix to the 3478A without modifying anything: http://www.rapidonline.com/cables-connectors/4mm-shrouded-socket-adaptors-63902

Just try not to smash them off.
 

Offline LaurentR

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2016, 04:54:53 pm »
I recall seeing banana plugs where the shroud can retract itself so it fits both isolated and 'normal' banana sockets.

I got some in a B&K Precision power supply test lead kit (TPLS)
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017QLPLE

Then I searched far and wide for those and I believe I found the original manufacturer, Calt-Test, who has a number of versions of these retractable banana cables, for instance:



I liked them so much I ended up stocking up on various lengths/colors of the CT2148 patch cord (pictured above) and these are the only patch cords I use.
http://www.caltestelectronics.com/ctitem/110-plugs-banana-plug-test-leads-stacking-retractable-sleeve-plug-to-stacking-retractable-sleeve-plug/CT2148

Very good quality. Retractable, stackable, and the 2148 uses nice silicone wires. The only real downside is that the contact length on the Keysight bench DMMs I have is a bit small. They work, but it could be better.

A good source in the US is:
http://www.testpath.com/Search.aspx?kw=ct2148

Note: I also own some of iloveelectronics's shrouded to unshrouded converters as these are very useful if you want to use specific test leads outside of their basic use (e.g. stacked for multiple measurements).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 07:26:08 am by LaurentR »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 08:25:01 pm »
Hi all,
   today my HP 3478A (restoration project) arrived and I suddenly released I have a small issue. All of my test equipment up to now is either Fluke or Keithley, they all have shrouded banana sockets and hence, I only own shrouded test leads (other than a few point to point leads) ie: the pin is surrounded by plastic shield. But these don't fit on the HP .I intend using the HP 3478A, but I don't intend buying a second set of all my test leads / kelvin clips etc, just for this meter. Can someone point me to a simple (cheap) converter / mini- extension to convert the shrouded plug to a non-shrouded type?

McBryce.
They also make these little adapters that plug into the unshrouded banana jack and then use an Allen key (hex) to lock it in place: https://www.conrad.de/de/uebergangsstecker-stecker-4-mm-buchse-4-mm-schwarz-multicontact-a-slk4-1-st-731468.html
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2016, 08:37:07 pm »
just cut the damn shrouds off. whoever invented those shrouded banana's should be tarred , feathered, glued to the wall , covered in red ants and left in the sun.

Stupid shrouded wires. compatible with nothing.
i never understood the need for those. i get the 'redice risk of touching . but who swaps out live test wires anyway ? engineers are supposed to have more than one working brain cell.

There are a couple of good reasons for shrouds. One is safety and not just having exposed contacts if pulling them from the socket. The shrouds complete the insulation into the meter so flash over cannot occur to adjacent connections or the front panel if it is grounded. The shrouds also protect the banana plugs from getting touch with dirty hands or surfaces and prevents dirt and contamination from getting on the contact surfaces.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2016, 09:18:55 pm »
If you don't like shrouds, you would love my pre-war Simpson 260 VOM.  It uses "pin" jacks, and both the mating plugs and the probe ends have metal nuts to secure the stranded test lead wire, which are open to the touch (about 1/4 inch at each end) just past the plastic handles.
 

Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2016, 09:53:04 pm »
@LaurentR: Those retractable ones look pretty cool, but I'd need to replace so many leads I'd go broke.

@Monkeh: That's a really neat solution, unfortunately I have already ordered the others. If I'd known about them sooner I would have got them. I might buy them later anyway, depending on how the other adapters go.

Regarding cutting shrouds off. I do some vintage radio repair and nixie stuff, so I prefer having the shroud for the added safety. 200VDC deserves some respect.

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2016, 10:19:13 am »
Just swapped the battery in the 3478A. I bought a Panasonic BR 2/3A with single tab at one end and double at the other end (like the footprint on the PCB), but the tabs are on the wrong end (double tabs on positive terminal)??? So I had to cut off the double tabs and solder a single lead at that end. Very confusing. Either way, it all worked fine and I didn't loose the Cal data :) I've given it a quick sanity check using a few voltage and resistor standards I have here and also compared it to my Keithley 2000 which I know to be extremely accurate and the 3478A seems to be pretty spot on :) The original battery was the original black EternaCell (from 1984 as far as I can tell). It still read 3.02V, but I'm told the device was powered up more or less permanently by its last owner, so it was never really used.
Now I just need to finish the restoration. The case cleaned up nicely and I've glued the crack that was in the front bezel and it's looking better now. I'd like to swap the bezel completely if someone has one to offer. The feet are also missing (it was rack-mounted at its last home), so if anyone (in Europe) has a spare set of 3478A feet and/or the front outer bezel, let me know.

The device is the version with the transformers, not opto-isolators, should anyone want to know.

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline engineer_in_shorts

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2016, 10:34:35 am »
just cut the damn shrouds off. whoever invented those shrouded banana's should be tarred , feathered, glued to the wall , covered in red ants and left in the sun.

Stupid shrouded wires. compatible with nothing.

Yay!  :clap:

It's so refreshing to see the perfect English translation of my exact thoughts about this stuff, which might be justifiable on a building lot, but not in a lab.

Not at all - i am upset that my Fluke 8508A does not have shrouded sockets (which is lab equipment). It means i have to have a set of test leads with the shrouds cut off. 

If you are routinely calibrating hand held meters then you are injecting up to 1000V - I personally like test lead shrouds in case one day i have a brain fart and forget to switch off a calibrator output.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2016, 10:55:39 am »
I recall seeing banana plugs where the shroud can retract itself so it fits both isolated and 'normal' banana sockets.

I bought this meter brand new for home and this is how the original leads that came with it worked.  Good idea but not as safe as the modern ones. 

OP, did you get yours with GPIB?   I got mine with the HPIL which is useless today.... 

Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2016, 11:50:53 am »
It's the GPIB version luckily.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 3478A with the smooth sides (and plastic bezel) are GPIB and the 3478A with the two ridges along the side (and aluminium bezel) are HPIL. But I may be completely wrong there?

McBryce.

"Smooth" version: https://76.img.avito.st/1280x960/833964276.jpg

"Ridged" version: http://www.wie-tec.de/bilder/bild/2981/2981_1.jpg
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2016, 01:31:02 pm »
Not at all - i am upset that my Fluke 8508A does not have shrouded sockets (which is lab equipment). It means i have to have a set of test leads with the shrouds cut off. 

If you are routinely calibrating hand held meters then you are injecting up to 1000V - I personally like test lead shrouds in case one day i have a brain fart and forget to switch off a calibrator output.

Well, if someone is dealing with really high voltages regularly, they actually might feel more comfortable with shrouded plugs.

That said, I'm using my calibrator up to 1000V quite often, and not so much for calibrating DMMs, which I don't consider risky at all, as it's a straight connection, but mainly for leakage tests on capacitors, relays and other stuff for precision instruments, where leakage currents <1pA are required. That means connecting components isn't as simple as just plugging a pair of cables, but using the usual lab accessories, like clamps and hooks. Even if they are compatible with shrouded plugs, it wouldn't make much sense, as there inevitably will be exposed contact materials anyway, at the very least on the d.u.t. itself.

Still I don't worry about that, because I can set up the test unhurriedly on the bench and instinctively follow the rule to use just one hand at a time when fiddling with the leads, plugs, accessories and d.u.t. whenever higher voltages might be present.

And then - how much current do you have available at 1000V? I don't think I've seen any calibrator that would output more than 10W, often less. That leaves you with a couple of mA, which might 'bite' you, but certainly not cause any electrical injury.
 

Offline engineer_in_shorts

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2016, 02:15:18 pm »
.....
And then - how much current do you have available at 1000V? I don't think I've seen any calibrator that would output more than 10W, often less. That leaves you with a couple of mA, which might 'bite' you, but certainly not cause any electrical injury.
::)
 

Offline McBryceTopic starter

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Re: Shrouded to non-shrouded test lead converter
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2016, 08:40:10 pm »
Forum member iloveelectronics has an ebay store with these and other such nice bits


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4mm-Shrouded-to-Unshrouded-Banana-Plug-Converters-1-Pair-Red-Black-/200904597758?hash=item2ec6d8e0fe:m:m6cIbbrFfVC1R88hIV59YtA

My converters have already arrived from HK!! Well done that man! (99centhobbies) No idea how he managed to get them here that fast, stuff from HK usually takes 10 times longer.

Now I just need to work out a new puzzle about my HP 3478A: Why are the 2 wire measurements more accurate than the 4 wire measurements?? Tested with several standards and compared to my Keithley. Example: 20K000 0.01% Resistor: HP 2 Wire = 19.9998, HP 4 wire = 19.9961, Keithley 20.0001.

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 


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