Siglent SDG1025 Arbitrary/function generator under some tests

[aghp]

Updated image. FW .23

I know now three versions.  .15,  .20 and .23. 

FW .23 is compatible least SDG1010 and 1025 ( I have used for  both)

.15:   TFT driving is with one word:  Terrible!
(it maybe that there is (was) totally something wrong with TFT drive in FW level becouse also contrast/wiev angle was "wrong")

.20:   TFT colors are still littlebit like candy store but not this heavy contrast issue with .15
(this image looks something like this or between .15)

.23:   TFT mainly due to reduced candy colors looks good. Also .20 version display cursor cosmetic bug is repaired.
(this have less candystore colors and visuallu more clear to look  and perhaps better for western markets (but of course one like apple and one like jackfruit)

Later I will take picture what show TFT after FW upgrade.[/i][/color]




Here:





I have made small tests with SDG1025

Now first some tests with sinewave and some modulations.

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm also biased and I know its dangers and  I try regognize it and  avoid its affect too much. Im not seller who only sell as many "nice boxes" as can. I'm too honest for this. Also maybe important point is that many of peoples are also my friends (here locally) and I need look these peoples face to face also after sell some equipment. Equipments prices are so low that my faces price is just incredible value over these prices... so..
I have my faces with  tens of years experience with electronic hobby and also tens of years experience with industrial electric and electronics design and also repair and building/developed some new things (today mainly in history).


Outside building quality is better what I expect.  Very good if think price class.
Keyboard works perfect and same for rotary encoder.
Display is ok, but I want adjust it more dim... but can not. (If I design these colors ...  after then it looks more harmonic and more expensive)
Also buttons do not need so much force that it moves whole unit... nice to use.
Also cursors below rotary knob can handle easy with same time as turn know with single hand.
Two separate channels, 14bit vertical resolution for BOTH channels, 16k for arb, 125MSa.
Pity they are not (expensive) isolated floating differential outputs...  they have common GND.

There is fan and it is not silent but, noise level is not  bad and also tone of voice is nice low.


But yes, these are made now in Siglent best factory product lines and they are really NOT Atten factories.. 
(and please do not mix it to Atten!  Atten have example ATF 20B what is nearly as piece of bullshit - one look to details in specifications and it can wonder why they make this? For who?)


Full sets of test images you can find here .
(tests are also continuing but first now this sine..)




Here some random examples:



Pictures are self-explanatory (look carefully also SA settings).
(
Note: noise level is mainly SA noise level with these settings
Note: SA reference level 0 is set for +17dBm
Note: Noise level is more low if reduce RBW but sweep time is so long that waiting time is too long for this purpose.)

2MHz 

7MHz 



Some test with modulations.
Carrier 20MHz


Turn AM on and modulation depth 30% with 800Hz mod frequency (sine, internal (adjustable)


Same as before but DSB-AM   (USB + LSB))  Double sideband (DSB) available, not separate USB or LSB sidebands and not ISB (ISB = DSB so that sidebands are independently  modulated.).
But this is better than nothing.
Sidebands well clearly over +60dBc
All available modulations: AM, DSB-AM, FM, PM, FSK, ASK, PWM, (+sweep and burst)



FM  deviation 25kHz.


Agen some sinewave, now audio area.
(signal +17dBm)

1MHz  to 100Hz (only some samples) +17dBm (@50ohm)
With more low levels there are some better results.
Also, it can see with Keithley 2015THD (20Hz - 20kHz)
Depending about signal level THD is between <0.03 - <0.1%  from 20Hz to 20kHz.

Freq affect only littlebit. Whole level range is divided to several level "bands"
It looks like THD is most low in every band upper borders, specially around 0.7Vrms.
(also when I look this with spectrum analyzer and slowly stepping down level with
small increments, it can clearly see how 2nd and 3th harmonic
level change several dB's just cross over these level bands borders.


20kHz


5kHz



1kHz



100Hz  (this is limit for SA, it can go more low but result is not very accurate)
(also if look carefully here can see small frequency offset, between SDG1000 and spectrum
are both only with they own internal references.
 

My opinion is that overall not bad result with sinewave quality for this kind of function generator.
But it need tightly classify to its own price class.
If this is 3k price, I give lot of negative arguments. 
But for normal entry-level and middle and even higher level hobby use it is good. Also it is usable in many professional use BUT it is NOT even nearly High-End "state of art" equipments. There is no any kind of competition with these.
If you need some special good for some special purpose, many old professional units give maybe best result together with price. (but you need really know these equipments, there are goods and bads.. and then "do not even touch" equipments even if they have been expensive in history. (I do not want name these! and do not ask... I do not tell.. exept in some very rare case)

SDG1000 Better than I have expect.

It have some FW bugs, minor bugs, cosmetic bugs and some more severe but overall it works well and after 5 minute learning.. UI can use very simple in most needs. I have not yet find any total freezes or crashes.

Maybe one of most bad (orange or nearly red class error, some one may classify it as fatal error)

This really BAD  FW "bug" error: if try set signal level value using dBm. (it do not work ok between -1dBm  to  +1dBm  and most bad is that if adjust with knob to this area... it really do some fatal (this is Signal generator)  it may turn output level to full! 

Attention: Before new FW update what (I hope soon!) repair this.. with sensitive electronics tests  do NOT use dBm, use Vp-p or Vrms.

To be continued... mainly there (bottom is link)

[Bored@Work]

But yes, these are made now in Siglent best factory product lines and they are really NOT Atten factories.. 

Oh come on 

Siglent is Atten. Siglent was previously called "DinYoung Technology Company, Ltd." a subsidiary of the Atten group. Sometime in 2008 DinYoung disapeared, and Siglent appeared, and history was rewritten. Some DinYoung information is still on the Siglent site, complete with an Atten logo.

Here is a comparison how DinYoung was giving their history, and how Siglent is giving the company history. DinYoung statements in italics. Even the spelling errors are the same.

< 2002, entrepreneurs of DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd started to studies  preliminary digital oscilloscope.

> 2002, entrepreneurs of SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd started to studies  preliminary digital oscilloscope.

< 2005.10, DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd producted the sampling rate of up to 1 G, have EasyHunting and a number of innovative technologies such as the ADS7000 family, EasyHunting makes the digital oscilloscope's precision of DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd increased 2-4 times than the same level of precision digital oscilloscope .

> 2005.10, SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd producted the sampling rate of up to 1 G, have EasyHunting and a number of innovative technologies such as the ADS7000 family, EasyHunting makes the digital oscilloscope's precision of SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd increased 2-4 times than the same level of precision digital oscilloscope .

< 2007,the series of ADS7000  sales in the United States and Western European , our digital oscilloscope  product sales 10,000 in 2007.

> 2007,the series of ADS7000  sales in the United States and Western European , our digital oscilloscope  product sales 10,000 in 2007.

< 2007.1, DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd introduced ADS2000 series,it will be the first time that introduce the U disk storage technology and the introduction of printing technology to 1 G sampling of the digital oscilloscope.

> 2007.1, SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd introduced ADS2000 series,it will be the first time that introduce the U disk storage technology and the introduction of printing technology to 1 G sampling of the digital oscilloscope.

< 2008.1, DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd  begined to the researchs of  bandwidth of 500 M-1G-oscilloscope and plans to empolder products in 2010 of the bandwidth of up to 1 G of the mid-range digital oscilloscope products.

> 2008.1, SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd  begined to the researchs of  bandwidth of 500 M-1G-oscilloscope and plans to empolder products in 2010 of the bandwidth of up to 1 G of the mid-range digital oscilloscope products.

< 2008.3, DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd producted ADS1000C series, fashion aesthetic appearance, compact size and powerful features.they maked ADS1000C to sharp rise in sales.

> 2008.3, SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd producted ADS1000C series, fashion aesthetic appearance, compact size and powerful features.they maked ADS1000C to sharp rise in sales.

< 2008.8, DinYoung Technology Company.,Ltd introduced real-time sampling rate of up to 2 G's ADS1000CE series.

> 2008.8, SIGLENT Technologies Co.,Ltd introduced real-time sampling rate of up to 2 G's ADS1000CE series.

At that point DinYoung disappeared. It was all suddenly Siglent, an amateurish attempt to rewrite history, and claims Siglent had never anything to do with Atten, although DinYoung had, and for all practical purposes DinYoung is Siglent, an Atten subsidiary. Now, when did Rigol win that lawsuit against Atten? Could that have been in 2008?

[eSaloooo]

compare to rigol's dg1022 or dg4062 wich is better ?

[aghp]

But yes, these are made now in Siglent best factory product lines and they are really NOT Atten factories.. 

Oh come on 

Siglent is Atten.

Yes they are same bacround but. Atten factory is NOT same as Siglent factory!

You need take bus and (or) taxi to travel cross around Shenzhen...
But here is freedom for different religions and I will respect it.
----------

There are thousends of Rigol owners, they can make tests and publish these.
There is lot of opinions in many kinds of kidplay videos and so on but nearly total lack of real data with methods what can also repeat in what ever laboratory. With some reasons opinions "this is nice and this is terrible and so on..." 

But Rigol 4000 series is different, sure better and ín different price class.

Rigol 1022A is nearly same price class or littlebit cheaper, and with reasons..
This Siglent have 2 channels and both 14 bit vertical resolution. Both channels have all modulations!  16k  memory for arb. 125MSa/s sampling.
Afaik Rigol have 14bit CH1 and 10bit CH2 and only CH1 have full set of modulations and 4k for CH1, 1k for CH1. 100MSa/s. This can not call twi channel  generator, it is somehow 1 and half.

But honestly, in many use, they are not se far away each others in features.

Rigol 4000 is different, it is clearly in upper class.

But if someone have real data about Rigol 1022 signal quality it is nice information.
I have set all tests for find problems, not for find nice looking data!

[aghp]

Some tests about jitter. 

Here SDG  use "pulse" mode.

Pulses period 100us and pulse 200ns wide.

Note: Oscilloscope I have forget to 10x but signal come with 50ohm coaxial from SDG output 1.
(so read this vertical as 500mV div)
 

First picture it can see trigger is set for one rising edge before horizontal center line.


Next picture is zoomed to this pulse edge what is image centerline (it is next rising edge after trigger edge. (Agilent have used same method))

Last picture is zoomed to this edge for 2ns/div scale.  Can not find clear jitter.  But can not sure detect and proof  anything under 300-500ps(1).  Note: Oscilloscope is set for infinite perstence for collect enough time all variations to screen.





(1) later perhaps I  check this with other kind of oscilloscope and equipments but this time this now is enough for classify this SDG if it is bird or fish.

Something more can find here.


-aghp

[eSaloooo]

would u pls show some jitter about pulse at 15megaHZ and 25ns pulse width for example~
or the jitter @ frequency is about 1.1133KHZ that is not a integ frequency~~
thanks~

[aghp]

would u pls show some jitter about pulse at 15megaHZ and 25ns pulse width for example~
or the jitter @ frequency is about 1.1133KHZ that is not a integ frequency~~
thanks~

No, I can not show 15MHz.
Pulse limit is 5MHz in all models from 5MHz to 50MHz.

(yes some sellers seems tell it have 10MHz... these sellers do not know what they sell, maybe they have never ever use this equipment in live... many of these sell just "nice boxes" as easy as they can. What value add these sellers  give to customer for this money they get between source and end user. Nothing but in worst case negative value!

With around 1kHz in pulse mode can not produce 25ns pulse width.
(setting increment is related to period (or frequency)

But I can later look with some random frequency some pulses.

Square wave can go to same frew than sine.

Its jitter is highly related to frequency.  Of course due to its basic fixed frequency DDS principle. (it is not Agilent PxP or more fine system) explained littlebit here  http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/agilent/ComparingFGPerformance.pdf

I have made square jitter tests but due to unclear manufactures specs sheet I will wait manufacturer answer  how they have defined these specifications or how these need "translate" so that they have some real meaning)

Note: Tests are continuing and I will publish the results when they are gradually completed in addition to other tasks with higher priority.

[aghp]

Here is some:

With all frequancies or periods  it use one clock cycle raster what is 8ns in this model. (125MSa/s)
It adjust pulse place but not touch pulse width. If trig from rising edge and look falling edge same pulse, no jitter. (last picture)  In advanced equpment (example some R&S or Agilent High-End models but this is under 0.5k equipment. With littlebit or more complex solution this adjusting  by jumping is eliminated more or less. 

It is well stated  by Agilent:

Conclusion
Direct digital synthesis (DDS) technology has served the function/
arbitrary waveform generator industry very well for many years. This
technology has been used by many instrument vendors to reproduce
a wide range of waveforms, including sine, square, pulse, triangle,
ramp, and user-defined arbitrary waveforms. While DDS is good in
applications requiring dynamically changing frequencies, it has some
serious drawbacks with respect to jitter and distortion.

Littlebit over 1kHz, 1us pulses.

Pulse positions jumping 8ns. (I have not find short time searching any two clock cycle jumps)
(with this principle this is not fail, it do it just as it need in this kind of system = it is natural.
(But specifications tell: Jitter 6ns + cycle 100ppm , I have seen only 8ns jumps or no jump.
Also measured over 1000 pulses also over this period max jump is 8ns (it do not cumulate)


One 1us pulse trigger rising and looked falling edge in same pulse.



Exactly same happend here what also 1kHz area.


8ns jump for adjust pulse position  or no jump.


-aghp

[nctnico]

But yes, these are made now in Siglent best factory product lines and they are really NOT Atten factories.. 

Oh come on 

Siglent is Atten. Siglent was previously called "DinYoung Technology Company, Ltd." a subsidiary of the Atten group. Sometime in 2008 DinYoung disapeared, and Siglent appeared, and history was rewritten. Some DinYoung information is still on the Siglent site, complete with an Atten logo.

Maybe but this generator is also sold by Lecroy with a Lecroy badge. It can't be that bad!

[aghp]

Maybe but this generator is also sold by Lecroy with a Lecroy badge. It can't be that bad!

Looks same, but who know if it is exactly same. I can tell only that LeCroy sell same kind of unit what is propably manufactured by Siglent ODM production for LeCroy. Is it 100% same? I do not know.

Who will try and update LeCroy FW update to Siglent model? I do not want even try.
Siglent is manufacturer. It is not "shop". 

LeCroy do not sell only pure equipment alone, they sell "total" including LeCroy customer care before sale, after sale, they have repair/service and calibration, they have peoples who will answer and help you, they can even assist people to find right solution for some needs. You go to Siglent and ask what all equipment I need for this and please show exactly total solution how we measure this in our product line and please demonstrate how you really can do it in practice. Just this point all people in Siglent stop understanding any word of english.

--
You have read all bored's comments on this forum?
On this forum it is like salt in soup. Just harmless fun. (and sime times some bits of truths like sharp needle) 

[alm]

Maybe but this generator is also sold by Lecroy with a Lecroy badge. It can't be that bad!

Did you read madworm's complaints about the Lecroy-branded Atten WaveAce 224?

[aghp]

Pulse positions jumping 8ns. (I have not find short time searching any two clock cycle jumps)
(with this principle this is not fail, it do it just as it need in this kind of system = it is natural.
(But specifications tell: Jitter 6ns + cycle 100ppm , I have seen only 8ns jumps or no jump.
Also measured over 1000 pulses also over this period max jump is 8ns (it do not cumulate)

This need correct.

Specifications (latest) tell truth.
(it is pity they copypaste other manufacturers specs  including also lies or mistakes)
SDG100 series datasheet  V1.3:
 Pulse: Jitter(pk-pk) 8ns
It is in datasheet and it is also exactly my real tests result.

[Achilles]

apart from all the Atten/Siglent discussion:

I downloaded a version of easywave to try it out and there the max Vpp. is 6V (?). Can you confirm that one?
Then there is the question if the Vpp is limited to 6V in Arb. mode or if there is a workaround for it (like editing the CSV).
At least it is nice to see that the wave is stored as csv then, what makes editing of the signal quite easy and you may not really need the software itself.
Can you just load the csv via USB stick to the Generator? That may be interesting to know as well.

Thanks for your tests and review.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

add-it: Just tried messing around with the CSV. It is possible to edit it and go over 6Vpp in that way. The program doesn't give any errors then and shows the Signal quite fine. Anyway...if I set the amplitude to 40Vpp and give some points above the 20Vpp the generator has as Max in it's specs there is still no complaint. So the software is bugged anyway...... would be interesting to know in which way

[aghp]

apart from all the Atten/Siglent discussion:

I downloaded a version of easywave to try it out and there the max Vpp. is 6V (?). Can you confirm that one?
Then there is the question if the Vpp is limited to 6V in Arb. mode or if there is a workaround for it (like editing the CSV).
At least it is nice to see that the wave is stored as csv then, what makes editing of the signal quite easy and you may not really need the software itself.
Can you just load the csv via USB stick to the Generator? That may be interesting to know as well.

Thanks for your tests and review.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

add-it: Just tried messing around with the CSV. It is possible to edit it and go over 6Vpp in that way. The program doesn't give any errors then and shows the Signal quite fine. Anyway...if I set the amplitude to 40Vpp and give some points above the 20Vpp the generator has as Max in it's specs there is still no complaint. So the software is bugged anyway...... would be interesting to know in which way

I have not yet made these tests, I have first concentrated to signal quality and accuracy, drifts etc and spectrum purity and this kind of things, also load effect and signal output impedance mismatch effects etc. And for find many these adjustments limits what are nor explained in datasheets/specifications.

When you open new editing it can not change over 6V.

After you open work you can go to "Property" menu.
There you can set vertical example to 20V.
But what it means... after waveform is in generator you adjust voltage. (but now careful... vertical is 14 bit. Do waveform so that it also have its highest or lowest point adjusted to whole vertical range, other way you do not take "all out" from 14 bit system. I think, but I do not know, that  Vpp setting in SDG  is related to waveform Vpp values are full 14bit scale. (good example how difficult simple thing is with foreign language)

I do not exactly know why there is just 6V... there may be something natural behind this but now I can not (or do not want) even guess.


But in "property" menu you can set this  V  (if set 10V it show of course -5 yo +5) what is good for your need so that it is more easy think these levels what are designing in wanted signal. (after ready, output level adjust work  whole specified area independent this "designing". (if you bhave used all 14bit)
Disclaimer: I have not tested this in practice.

But main thing is... what ever voltage you want use for your thinking process.. there is only one truth in machine. this waveform is signed 14bit vertical 16k horizontally (time) long sequential table it handle 125MSa/s. Scaling it to output voltage when user set output levels is SDG inside head ache and same for frequency.   (how to do 30MHz out from 25MHz unit...    )

I have preconception that .csv can move also with USB stick. But not yet tested do it really work.
I believe only what I have really tested. I do not directly and blindly believe any dtasheet or User manual. Exept prhaps in some very very triavial things.

[Achilles]

Yeah sure you can scale the voltage and it's fine as you just increase the mV steps, but somehow I would like taking a measured Signal and rebuild it 1:1 directly instead of measure it, scale it down to fit the 6Vpp and after building it scale it up again to fit it's original Range......at least for me these would be two unnecessary steps.
I asked Siglent via email and the replied it's just a bug in the software and it is actually capable of reading 20Vpp in the Arb. Waveforms.

So if the download of the csv really works there wouldn't be any need of the software anyway which would be a big bonus in my opinion. Just use excel, Matlab, R, or whatsoever and build your waveforms as CSV and you're ready to go...... much nicer and accurate than repainting in some fancy window

[aghp]

Yeah sure you can scale the voltage and it's fine as you just increase the mV steps, but somehow I would like taking a measured Signal and rebuild it 1:1 directly instead of measure it, scale it down to fit the 6Vpp and after building it scale it up again to fit it's original Range......at least for me these would be two unnecessary steps.
I asked Siglent via email and the replied it's just a bug in the software and it is actually capable of reading 20Vpp in the Arb. Waveforms.

So if the download of the csv really works there wouldn't be any need of the software anyway which would be a big bonus in my opinion. Just use excel, Matlab, R, or whatsoever and build your waveforms as CSV and you're ready to go...... much nicer and accurate than repainting in some fancy window

ADD for underlined:
maybe you do not need scale.. (only use SDG level setting for correct level)


Ican set 20V  in property setting (after first open  new work) then its full scale is same as full scale out from SDG (note datasheet exeptions).
 
(it seems be bug that when first open new work sheet there this 6V.)

I have tested.
I can set example 30V. I just made 5 cycle sine arb with 1kHz and 30V.
Using USB to SDG. (this time 10MHz SDG)

What happend.
It is just full 20V if I adjust SDG out 20V.
(so what ever do and use full scale (independent of scale voltages when do waveform) this full scale is also SDG full scale. naturally becouse there is 14bit DAC.)

I test ecxatly this (and some others, example this 30V)
start easywave
file  new
property window as default - ok
open property others as is but 20Vpp and - ok
draw - equation draw - new equation - 10*(sin(5*x)x)   and ok
Now you see 5 sinewave cycle and Vpp 20V (+10 and -10V)
remember this is (now) SDG1010
ok, lets test. USB to SDG and -->
arb - level 20Vpp - freq?  oh I want 1MHz so I set 200kHz and there it is..

Then I do same with easywave but now 30vpp
ok.. then 15*(sin(5*x)x)
and to SDG and full scale is just 20V.

But then, with 20V scale I make only 2Vpp sinewave.
This csv to SDG
agen output is adjustable ~0 - 20Vpp
(so, it seems have littlebit own brain... before it think it do not this...  )

[Rosendorfer]

Hi aghp

I have SGD1025 for few weeks now and as it is my first "real" generator I can't tell as an expert but from my point of view it is very nice  "little thing", and as for my testing and measurements it just works and seems to stick with datashets pretty well.
Having real 2 Channel 25MHz generator with all that modulations and possibilites is funn...

But I have question about feature I'm missing or just can't find.
Is it possible to "link" botch channels the way that we have output ie. square wave at both channels with the linked frequency but with different phases, amplitudes or duty cycles...
There is option to copy setting of one channel to second but not to link channel frequencies..
Any help ..??

And if You could send some request regarding new firmware to Siglent, about new schemes for screen colours  ... In bright day difference between green and yellow is not that big ...

Regards
Rosendorfer

[aghp]

Hi aghp

But I have question about feature I'm missing or just can't find.
Is it possible to "link" botch channels the way that we have output ie. square wave at both channels with the linked frequency but with different phases, amplitudes or duty cycles...
There is option to copy setting of one channel to second but not to link channel frequencies..
Any help ..??

Regards
Rosendorfer

Afaik, there is not this feature.

I have now used it for tests (short time), not so much UI tests and what kind of tricks there is possibe and how exactly all go becouse first I have concentrated to signal quality testings and also try find if there is something what breaks specifications (it need look with specifications sheet V1.3 other versions are obsolete).
 Ch can copy from other to other including frequency but there is no way to link freq so that other channel follow other channel freq adjust. This I have looked and try find but simply, there is no.
I miss this feature. (it was first note in my wish list "this I want".)
But it can live also without it.

Full modulation set fully separately for each channel is nice feature. And if this is not enough, then other channel can use for modulate other (From Ch out to Mod in)
Also one modulation I miss.. there is DSB-AM  (both sidebands without carrier)   but not SSB  (LSB or USB).

[nctnico]

Hi aghp

But I have question about feature I'm missing or just can't find.
Is it possible to "link" botch channels the way that we have output ie. square wave at both channels with the linked frequency but with different phases, amplitudes or duty cycles...
There is option to copy setting of one channel to second but not to link channel frequencies..

Afaik, there is not this feature.

That is pretty bad. The whole point of having two outputs is to be able to generate related signals. Since a few seconds I was planning to buy an SDG1000 series generator...

[nixxon]

I believe you can phase shift CH1 and CH2 in 1 degree increments (1/360 of full cycle). Or am I missing some part of the question here? I have only tested with sine waves though. Don't know about other waveforms.

I have testet sine wave phase shift with my SDG1020 and it seems to work  flawlessly.

nixxon

[aghp]

I believe you can phase shift CH1 and CH2 in 1 degree increments (1/360 of full cycle). Or am I missing some part of the question here? I have only tested with sine waves though. Don't know about other waveforms.

I have testet sine wave phase shift with my SDG1020 and it seems to work  flawlessly.

nixxon

Phase shift increment is 0.1degree.
There is some report old FW have 0.1degree increment but real step was 1degree.
Latest FW increment is 0.1degree and also real step resolution is 0.1degree.
(tested, not mutual)

[aghp]

That is pretty bad. The whole point of having two outputs is to be able to generate related signals. Since a few seconds I was planning to buy an SDG1000 series generator...

Of course you are able to generate related signals.

But manual frequency "sweeping" both channels together with one turn of knob, this feature there is not. But you can easy set both frequency same and even phase lock these. So for changin frequency you change it, then you push one button and change other channel freq. If you need then phase lock these, just press button. If you need 4MHz square and 4M sine.. just key in or turn 4M and push CH1/CH1 and key in or turn 4M.. you need 1.7 second time for this. if need phase lock, select it.
(how often need exatly same frequency all times manually variable  and so that signals are different, example square + sine or waveform a and waveform b.  Yes sometimes is is nice feature but in reality how often it need If really need this feature then it is better to buy some other generator what have this. Do you know good one in this price class and what also have this SDG all features? I want buy it.

I have not yet, as I have told, study features enough becouse more high priority have been signal quality reöated things. Making real lab tests is not "15 minute" work. If someone think these tests can do in few days he just have not any real experience about nothing.

So: Disclaimer. I know now somethng about signal quality and specifications but not nearly anything  about features in UI(exactly) . Just some basic things for generate signals for signal quality tests.  My answers may be wrong about some details. (good example was this misunderstooding this easywave software .csv automatic scaling to 14bit, independent of editing time voltage selections. (so softwares are more clever I first think)

This I know, both channels frequency adjust  can not directly lock to each others so that one channel follow other channel frequency changes in  real time automatically if other channel frequency is manually adjusted.
If control equipment with SCPI commands (using USB or GPIB) it can do both channels freq setting very fast and emulate locked freq between channels.
 
But there do not need many keys, it is just one key and all control change to other channel... if you have last changed freq, this selection is ready... so switching from channel to channel for freq change is fast.  They use same reference clock and they can also phase lock.

[Rosendorfer]

Hi Guys

I'm almost afraid to post anything, as seems that can be used against SDG1025....
Sorry aghp that was not my intention ... Actually opposite.. 

SDG1025 is not the best stuff possible.
But it there anything better for that price ??

...err... aghp ... attempt to measure "jitter" using Owon scope...... "one bridge too far"... . 


Regards
Rosendorfer

[aghp]

Hi Guys

I'm almost afraid to post anything, as seems that can be used against SDG1025....
Sorry aghp that was not my intention ... Actually opposite.. 

SDG1025 is not the best stuff possible.
But it there anything better for that price ??

...err... aghp ... attempt to measure "jitter" using Owon scope...... "one bridge too far"... . 


Regards
Rosendorfer

Yes, Owon is good (for me) for this becouse 1. I can get easy picture. 2. I can use 1GSa/s for 500us/div due to its full speed 10M sampling buffer for single shot realtime. I have not other scope now available what can do same. I can use my Tektronix but it have only 50k sampling buffer and maximum resolution is 2ns but Owon have 1ns. And my best old HP is even more poor for this, not with samplerate but there is less sampling buffer, so with low frequencies it have terrible low samplerate.
Of course this one example about jitter was only really one example and it is about "Pulse" function. Example for square wave function with SDG1000 is totally different case. Pulse function have only two possible placement hop for pulse timing.. 8ns time hop ot no time hop.  (one SDG1000 clock cycle) So you can see only two rising edges with 8ns time difference in picture. There is really not any kind of whole "picture" about all jitters. Sinewave phase noise/jitter is not bad, as can see in spectrum analyzer images. And tsts are just started... so more is coming. Also I try find how to use my Agilent time intervall counter for some measuremets.

[nctnico]

That is pretty bad. The whole point of having two outputs is to be able to generate related signals. Since a few seconds I was planning to buy an SDG1000 series generator...

Of course you are able to generate related signals.

But manual frequency "sweeping" both channels together with one turn of knob, this feature there is not. But you can easy set both frequency same and even phase lock these. So for changin frequency you change it, then you push one button and change other channel freq. If you need then phase lock these, just press button. If you need 4MHz square and 4M sine.. just key in or turn 4M and push CH1/CH1 and key in or turn 4M.. you need 1.7 second time for this. if need phase lock, select it.
(how often need exatly same frequency all times manually variable  and so that signals are different, example square + sine or waveform a and waveform b.  Yes sometimes is is nice feature but in reality how often it need If really need this feature then it is better to buy some other generator what have this. Do you know good one in this price class and what also have this SDG all features? I want buy it.

Sometimes I want to generate two arb signals which start at the same time (and have the same period). I have a Lecroy LWA420 (100MHz/400Ms/s) which can do that and it has a digital pattern output. I think I paid around $500 for it (second hand) including shipping.

[aghp]

That is pretty bad. The whole point of having two outputs is to be able to generate related signals. Since a few seconds I was planning to buy an SDG1000 series generator...

Of course you are able to generate related signals.

But manual frequency "sweeping" both channels together with one turn of knob, this feature there is not. But you can easy set both frequency same and even phase lock these. So for changin frequency you change it, then you push one button and change other channel freq. If you need then phase lock these, just press button. If you need 4MHz square and 4M sine.. just key in or turn 4M and push CH1/CH1 and key in or turn 4M.. you need 1.7 second time for this. if need phase lock, select it.
(how often need exatly same frequency all times manually variable  and so that signals are different, example square + sine or waveform a and waveform b.  Yes sometimes is is nice feature but in reality how often it need If really need this feature then it is better to buy some other generator what have this. Do you know good one in this price class and what also have this SDG all features? I want buy it.

Sometimes I want to generate two arb signals which start at the same time (and have the same period). I have a Lecroy LWA420 (100MHz/400Ms/s) which can do that and it has a digital pattern output. I think I paid around $500 for it (second hand) including shipping.

It is originally expensive unit totally in different class, normally also second hand units still more expensive.
Vertical resolution is only 8bit but  nice equipment still due to its many features.

Siglent can also drive independently arb from both channels simultaneously and also with 0 degree phase difference or phase adjusted with 0.1degree resolution.

And note: Siglent is NOT Atten.  If someone want tell other thruts plese buy tickect and go to look.

Siglent do some product to Atten as OEM (and using of course buyer(Atten) specifications about details and maybe some savings in costs. Also OEM and ODM is littlebit diffeent case.  Siglent have they own Siglent factory and Atten have they different factory in different place.  Also it is good to remember, time ago bad quality company may learn and develop themselves after mistakes. Some do not learn and care about mstakes. Some want learn about mistakes and change, maybe slowly... but it good also change opinions if old opinion is obsolete.. 

[nixxon]

I believe you can phase shift CH1 and CH2 in 1 degree increments (1/360 of full cycle). Or am I missing some part of the question here? I have only tested with sine waves though. Don't know about other waveforms.

I have testet sine wave phase shift with my SDG1020 and it seems to work  flawlessly.

nixxon

Phase shift increment is 0.1degree.
There is some report old FW have 0.1degree increment but real step was 1degree.
Latest FW increment is 0.1degree and also real step resolution is 0.1degree.
(tested, not mutual)

Do you know what is the latest firmware version? And where to download FW updates? I can't find any info about FW at siglent.com.

nixxon

[aghp]

I believe you can phase shift CH1 and CH2 in 1 degree increments (1/360 of full cycle). Or am I missing some part of the question here? I have only tested with sine waves though. Don't know about other waveforms.

I have testet sine wave phase shift with my SDG1020 and it seems to work  flawlessly.

nixxon

Phase shift increment is 0.1degree.
There is some report old FW have 0.1degree increment but real step was 1degree.
Latest FW increment is 0.1degree and also real step resolution is 0.1degree.
(tested, not mutual)

Do you know what is the latest firmware version? And where to download FW updates? I can't find any info about FW at siglent.com.

nixxon

Siglent have not yet ready public FW download system.
Last version for SDG1000 have last 2 digits  .23  (afaik).
If you have buy it from normal distributor you simply ask. (if they do not have after sales customer care...  well there are lot of there "nice box" sellers. If your car need something do you call car factory or go to dealer where you buy it... there are sellers and customer care. )
I think soon Chinese companies need change. They need stop this "thousands of sellers" policy and build up network of distributors who also do something for get this piece of cake. Now there is lot of sellers who eat free lounges. They take money as dealers but without any kind of pre- or aftersales customer care and then there is nearly only factory doing aftersales customer care. This is really stupid policy and it need change. Now, the manufacturer's facilities overworked because vendors do not perform anything other than forwarding parcels as "nixe boxes" and peeling a cream without doing anything.  One solution is that they sell products only to distributors who also know equipments and also do least minimum level of customer care.


You can send courteous letter to Siglent, tell your model, HW and FW version numbers and you need latest FW and soon you have it. (ask they also connect you to possible mailing list for future updates)
Also I can send it to you but I do not this becouse I do not have enough  knowledge about my .23 version compatibility to your HW version. (I quess it is but... who is responsible if something go wrong) After they get public download system ready they are responsible that updates are compatible to all possible version. 

[poorchava]

Can you please give an offer for SDG1025 + shipping to Poland?
Do you have other versions (1005, 1010 etc)?
(might be via PM)

[nixxon]

Actually, my SDG1020 came with a FW that allows me to enter phase angle offset in 0.1 degrees increments (1/3600 of full cycle) and not in 1 degree increments (1/360) as I have stated before. I'll try to measure if the AWG actually outputs such small phase offsets (if possible with a Rigol DS1052E (softmod to DS1102E).

The seller was really nice and seemed pretty serious, so I will contact him regarding FW updates (if I need any).

Software version: 1.01.01.20
Hardware version: 00-00-00-17-23
Serial number: SDG0000212****

nixxon

[nixxon]

Someone should send That Crazy Aussie Bloke a Siglent SDG1000 series AWG for teardown and more...

[aghp]

Becouse my tests (jitters etc) are not yet ready and becouse many peoples like pictures. Here is some...

What I can say about building quality.
It is good.

It is not state of art or "high-end" but also price is not.
If front panel and everywhere read example Agilent and I open equipment.. I just believe it.
Only case is made littlebit cheap.. but mainly it can see only inside equipment metal and plastic works finishing.
Yes there is not Swizerland watch maker factory drilling, milling and lathed diecast aluminium fine cast alloy chassis like some Agilent high-end units. This kind of empty chassis price alone is maybe more than some lot of these equipments.

Where is this chinese crap quality?

Also I have not find any dirty and badly hand soldered things, and all boards are very clean, no fingerprints, no dirty residues.

TFT panel have real glass front of it. It is really nice detail

Note for display image, it is sofft for avoid digital camera and TFT "Moire" interference.
Still there is some, in nature it looks just normal TFT. Color what looks in picture near grey it is very neutral grey in nature.

This model do not have fan. Some models have fan and it is right side of unit.  Also left side have air holes. (some other equipment may use same base and also there is place for fan.

I have heard lot of lark about Siglent bad quality. Where it is? Maybe it hide inside these plastic/rubber parts what all are made from recycled material. Maybe this bullshit and crap are lying  hidden inside plastic... you have been warned.  

Btw.. under backside BNC connectors position there is place for TCXO or maybe for small OCXO on the main board. (U107)

Whole unit is in strong metal box (coated iron), also front and back is closed.. outer case is aluminium. Only part outside metal box is front panel + TFT. Power supply is in its own block behind 1mm wall  so switch mode power noise is some amount isolated.
What I do not like but still can accept.
1. Output stage is not isolated. (good real isolation is expensive so this need accept. If do cheap isolation   -   better without it.)
2. Power switch is one pole switch so there may still be "live" (and protective ground) after switch off). There is not main switch. Now if this unit is with optional better internal frequency reference there is not stand by power for keep its powered for keep stability (example OCXO). 
  (Of course normal serious lab use "house standard" where all equipments are connected.  But for this there is other small problem. This unit need initiate for external reference allways after it is powered up and there is not any indication for real reference status (example "locked" indicator))

Pictures have they own story... 

[nctnico]

Where did you get the model without fan? I want to buy a Siglent SDG1005 but I'd prefer something without a fan.

[aghp]

Where did you get the model without fan? I want to buy a Siglent SDG1005 but I'd prefer something without a fan.

I do not know older versions but today version of SDG1010 have no fan.
SDG1025  have fan..

[aghp]

TFT panel is this.

CH1 Output amplifier (3095).

Output amplifier CH2,  5166ISZ (elantec (Intersil)) and used also other places around  in whole  circuit.

[aghp]

Some samples from new tests published. Now also something more about normal jitter in this kind of equipment.

Here you can find these. 


-aghp

[pauln]

You can send courteous letter to Siglent, tell your model, HW and FW version numbers and you need latest FW and soon you have it. (ask they also connect you to possible mailing list for future updates)
Also I can send it to you but I do not this becouse I do not have enough  knowledge about my .23 version compatibility to your HW version. (I quess it is but... who is responsible if something go wrong) After they get public download system ready they are responsible that updates are compatible to all possible version.
[/quote]


Wish I had seen your post earlier - have posted my findings re the dbm issue elsewhere on forum.
I emailed siglent and here is part of their reply

"I have to say the what you said is our software bug. Can you use Vpp to replace it? "

I have asked re firmware update to fix - no reply so far.
My units details.

Bootstrap   10
S/W   1.01.01.20
H/W   00.00.00.17.23

Hope they sort out sooner rather than later

[aghp]

Maybe there is some problem and before you did not get my last PM. (also I do not have it in my outbox)

I try agen.

Newest FW is: 1.01.01.23

(it do not fix dBm math bug between -1.0dBm to +1.0dBm)

It need be careful, it also jumps in some cases to full level after turning adjust knob.
Recommendation is: Avoid use dBm until bug is fixed.

[Rosendorfer]

Hi aghp

Have look at Your Siglent tests, and have to say THE Best test I have ever seen... absolutely great work.

I have try to repeat Your jitter tests and well... You can use Owon scope for jitter measurements...

Have actual question if You have try/could try to run Siglent SDG with external 10MHz "reference" clock and see if that is changing anything about jitter measurements.

And also probably subject for other thread but do You have anything about new OWON Scope  SDS9302. 300MHz and 3,2Gs/s sounds tempting... well also SDS8302 looks pretty interesting.


Rosendorfer

[Dread]

aghp

Not sure if you got my PM but thanks for all the help; it worked perfectly.
If I lived on you side of the world I would buy all my gear from you, I like when companies actively support their products on forums.  I wish more companies would do the same.  I did not buy my unit from you but you helped me out the same as if I did and I really appreciate that.

All the Best
Robert

[aghp]

Dear friends around of world.

About FW updates!

Please do not ask FW update from me. Or least please do not disappoint if get not help or even answer. 

I like help peoples but...  I can not do more what I have free time resources..

In first priority I share my time for my customers and after then I can do some just for fun but there is limit. It is simple cold truth.

I have just one update version and ( what I know) it works with these versions what for I have get it from Siglent and I do NOT have any knowledge how it is compatible to different versions and subversions in FW and/or HW.    (example some units may need first update to some next version and after then it can safely upgrade to current new version.)

If you need more new FW due to some real problems with your current version please contact your seller/distributor! If he/she can not help you please  contact  directly to Siglent!
Tell your equipment data. (Model, Software and Hardware version and serial number and problem what you have and you want get new FW version for solve problem.  Also one tip: in China they still use telefax.

And be patient.
Also now I understand why they answer may be slow.  In very short time I have get so many requests.     Requests are flooding through the doors and windows - I can not answer to all.
It is just impossible. I have not 34 hour in one day and seven hands, I have only 24 hour and two hand as most peoples have and also family who need some timeslice.


Also if you can wait, please be  patient. I have heard from Siglent they are designing public service for updates. (I do not know what equipments and what time they start)  This is not yet ready. (it is not just piece of bisquit exept if think that electric is so simple...  it just come out from wall socket, what is so difficult... )

Wrong update file may damage your equipment permannently and there is no way to downgrade back. There is not "oops" feature what can do in customer side.

kindly

-aghp

[nixxon]

Looks like a new display color scheme/theme. I have emailed Siglent's representative, "Lulu", and asked for more information about current FW for the SDG1000 series.

Photo from http://siglent.com/en/product/detail3.aspx?id=100000001526838&nodecode=119008003

The display of the depicted SDG1000 is obviously manipulated in photoshop or similar, but I presume the depicted color scheme is somewhat accurate.

[nixxon]

I just got a reply from Lulu. No new firmware, just a new photoshopped image. Thats a shame, because I kind of liked the colors. She mentioned a few new products; "new handheld oscilloscope SHS800, new waveform generator SDG5000 and new DC power supply".

Yeah, you can read it yourselves:


"Dear "nixxon"
 
I took some days off before!
 
Sorry for my late reply!

Also thank you so much for your kind attention to our new website!
 
For the SDG1000? it’s actually a new made image, not an updated firmware. 
 
 
 
But we do have something new, new handheld oscilloscope SHS800, new waveform generator SDG5000 and new DC power supply!
 
Enclosed please find our update catalogue!
 
The new handheld oscilloscope is ready now, and the SDG5000 and DC power will be ready in this Nov.
 
 
 

Looking forward your kind advice regarding our new product!
 
BR
 
Lulu"

Yo, nixxon

[BMac]

I just purchased the Siglent SDG1020, cant get either of the USB drivers to load 32 or 64 bit in XP or Vista, SW on the unit is 1.01.01.15 and HW is 00-00-00-15-22, Boot strap NO: 19. Can't find USB drivers or firmware loader anywhere, Siglents support appears to be non-existent.
Any one have any luck with this?  Thanks.

BMac

[aghp]

I just purchased the Siglent SDG1020, cant get either of the USB drivers to load 32 or 64 bit in XP or Vista, SW on the unit is 1.01.01.15 and HW is 00-00-00-15-22, Boot strap NO: 19. Can't find USB drivers or firmware loader anywhere, Siglents support appears to be non-existent.
Any one have any luck with this?  Thanks.

BMac

You have not asked from your seller? They have not any support?

With unit there is not USB drivers??? Strange.
Also 1.01.01.15 FW is very old! It is good to upgrade first..

Please take contact to Siglent and they will send FW upgrade to you.

Also with communicating via USB you have two selection in SDG menu:
With NI-VISA drivers set: USBTMC
with easywave (without NI-VISA) set: USBRAW

In some cases it may be useful to read nearly compatible user manual:
LeCroy WaveStation.
It is pity that Siglent manual is very poor. But also price difference for better manual is markable.


I have FW update for it BUT I can not share it. This is becouse some manufacture lot MAY need first some other FW upgrade before final upgrade to latest FW for avoid some serious problems. Only factory have this knowledge. (this may be one reson why there is not yet public downloadable FW as there is for some other Siglent equipments.)

So, send letter to Siglent, give this information (FW HW and your Serial number!  and ask FW update)

Newest "EasyWave" you find Siglent main sides (there service and then download center)

There is also hotline phone number, FAX number, QQ, MSN and Skype  (note time difference)

("Siglents support appears to be non-existent."  I have different experience. Nearly all times answer inside 24 hour to letters (exept holidays). Phone they mostly answer immediately in office time)

[BMac]

Thanks, for the response, I will try more emails to the seller and Siglent, still no reply from either. BMac

[BMac]

Has anyone had any luck loading the latest LeCroy firmware into a Siglent?

Thank you,  BMac

[aghp]

Has anyone had any luck loading the latest LeCroy firmware into a Siglent?

Thank you,  BMac

Please DO NOT TRY!
I repeat:
DO NOT TRY!

(yes I believe it is protected for wrong upgrade file but... )

[BMac]

So will it work? is there any internal difference between the two?, has anyone done a tear down on both? Maybe Siglent would get off their rocker and get their unit up to "par" if people were buying there unit and turning it into a "Lecroy".   Would be kind of fun to try.  BMac

[BMac]

Did you get the supplied USB drivers to load in your PC and then connect to the function generator?
I can not get the supplied drivers to load.

Thankyou,

BMac

[aghp]

Did you get the supplied USB drivers to load in your PC and then connect to the function generator?
I can not get the supplied drivers to load.

Thankyou,

BMac

You get your generator with Siglent software CD. On the CD there is printed version number. What is version? Or  what version of software you have installed if not same as in CD?

Something like in attached picture here after you look version (help/about)

What is windows version  you use? Version and Service Pack?

Now if your EasyWave is other version, you can try install this.

EasyWave V100R001B01D01P06
(this version do not need NIVISA drivers)

Please remove first other easy wave version installation and possible other things what you have try for "usb"related to SDG,  clean all  fully.

Unzip and install (setup.exe) all with defaults (just "blonde install").

notes:
-there are versions what may need NIVISA drivers and it is possible these need separately download and install. (from NIVISA source)

-This older V100R001B01D01P06  do NOT need NIVISA drivers.

Also check your SDG1020 menu possible USBTMC/USBRAW setting.


- I do not know if someone may  have this problem but if someone download new EasyWave from Siglent it is good to believe what there read: look this second image.

[BMac]

I bought one of these, and couldn't load the USB Drivers until I flashed it up to FW version 23, (identity mismatch on the drivers).
After that it worked as predicted, although still has one feature not working, (setting output in db's), they say they're working on it.
Have been temped to flash it to the latest Lecroy, (same unit),  firmware to see if that fixes it , but don't want to brick my generator.

BMac

[Rick]

Hi aghp,

There is no way to contact you.
How can we get in touch with you?
Thanks.

[Herman]

siglent has updated the firmware to 27. So the newest version is 1.01.01.27.
I have get the newest firmware from them, and the dBm output problem has fixed.

[nixxon]

siglent has updated the firmware to 27. So the newest version is 1.01.01.27.
I have get the newest firmware from them, and the dBm output problem has fixed.

Is there somewhere to download this FW update? I can't wait for Lulu to respond to my email...

Here is some info about my SDG1020:

Original configuration:
 Software version: 1.01.01.20
 Hardware version: 00-00-00-17-23
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

Current configuration (after 1.01.01.23 update):
 Software version: 1.01.01.23
 Hardware version: 00-00-00-19-23
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

[Wuerstchenhund]

siglent has updated the firmware to 27. So the newest version is 1.01.01.27.
I have get the newest firmware from them, and the dBm output problem has fixed.

Can you please put the firmware somewhere for download (maybe include the hw version so that everyone can decide for themselves if they want to flash it or not)? Siglent support is hit and miss (more miss than hit), and the fact that they still have no public firmware download for the SDG1000 on their website is atrocious.

[BMac]

Yes, I agree 100 %. If Siglent is going to be a player in the test equipment market they need to put some resources towards the're web site and support, hey do a couple of mouse clicks and go over to LeCroy and look at there's.
It always blows my mind when I see a crap website and crap support, with so many good examples of how it should be done out there, how can the developer at Siglent have such crap online.
The web site has a lot of lip service on it, says all the right words about service, but they obviously don't mean it. OK so enough for my rant, maybe we can shame them into actually supporting the products they want us to buy. I can't recommend then to any one because of there poor support, products seem to be ok. I don't have my own website other wise I would put the firmware and documentation on it. Are there any repositories out there that we could use for a Siglent user support group?
Anyways Siglent wont help us out we will have to support ourselves.

Rant done.

BMac

[Wuerstchenhund]

The web site has a lot of lip service on it, says all the right words about service, but they obviously don't mean it. OK so enough for my rant, maybe we can shame them into actually supporting the products they want us to buy. I can't recommend then to any one because of there poor support, products seem to be ok.

Indeed, I can't complain that much about the hardware quality of my SDG1020 (aside from the jitter issue, that is). But all these Chinese manufacturers must realize that in the T&M market support is everything, even if you're just targeting hobby users. Not providing firmware updates as downloads is simply unacceptable in this day and age.

I don't have my own website other wise I would put the firmware and documentation on it. Are there any repositories out there that we could use for a Siglent user support group?
Anyways Siglent wont help us out we will have to support ourselves.

How about a Yahoo group (provided there isn't one already)? Not perfect but apparently it's good enough for LeCroy and HP/Agilent users, and it gives you 100MB in download storage which can be used for firmware files and other documents.

And who knows, maybe Siglent even realizes that they could use this as a proper channel for getting user feedback (which should lead to better products for us and more money for them). Win-win.

[Herman]

Please don't try to get the firmware from me.
Send an email to sales@siglent.com,and then they will give you the firmware.
2 months ago, I send an email, and they say have no new firmware.
1 months ago, I send the second email, and they say they are testing the new firmware(1.01.01.27).
several days ago, I send the third email, and they send the firmware(1.01.01.27) to me.
What you need do is send more and more emails to siglent, give them pressure to fix the bug, rather than sit back and enjoy.

[pauln]

Please don't try to get the firmware from me.
Send an email to sales@siglent.com,and then they will give you the firmware.
2 months ago, I send an email, and they say have no new firmware.
1 months ago, I send the second email, and they say they are testing the new firmware(1.01.01.27).
several days ago, I send the third email, and they send the firmware(1.01.01.27) to me.
What you need do is send more and more emails to siglent, give them pressure to fix the bug, rather than sit back and enjoy.

Herman
Thank you for your PM.  I have also emailed Siglent since last August - this email address finally produced a new firmware file.
Jelin.wei@siglent.com
Also note that my early manual copy had incomplete instructions to update, a later version has corrected this.
Thank You

[Wuerstchenhund]

Send an email to sales@siglent.com,and then they will give you the firmware.

Maybe, or they won't. The success rate of getting a response is highly variable.

2 months ago, I send an email, and they say have no new firmware.
1 months ago, I send the second email, and they say they are testing the new firmware(1.01.01.27).
several days ago, I send the third email, and they send the firmware(1.01.01.27) to me.
What you need do is send more and more emails to siglent, give them pressure to fix the bug, rather than sit back and enjoy.

No, that is not what we need to do. It's them who need to actively support for their products, not for us customers having to beg them for information. This is ridiculous.

They must realize that producing decent hardware is only one half, and that the other half is providing good firmware support which not only means fixing bugs but having updates and(!) release notes available for download. Period.

[nixxon]

Yesterday, Lulu sent me the update file by email.

File name: SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P27.ADS
File size: 0,99 MB (1 041 222 byte)
(that is slightly less than the size on disk)

Link to the file: EDIT: Link removed as it didn't work anymore, due to Dropbox changes.

Disclaimer: I do not know for sure that the FW may be applied to other units with other specs than my unit.

Procedure:
0 Turn on the unit and insert a USB-stick with a copy of SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P27.ADS on root level.
1 Press <Utility> button
2 Select "1/2 ?" (the arrow down character has turned into a question mark)
3 Select "Update"
4 Highlight the USB stick "USB Device (O:)" (Yellow background)
5 Press "Browser/Folder" so it changes to "Browser/File"
6 Highlight the update file "SDG100~1.ADS" (Yellow background)
7 Select "Recall"

Wait 33 seconds for the success message

After that I pressed the <Utility> button to exit the menus, pulled out the memory stick and shut the unit off.
I booted the unit and confirmed that the Software Version was correct.

Original configuration:
 Software version: 1.01.01.20
 Hardware version: 01-00-00-17-23
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

Previous configuration (after 1.01.01.23 update):
 Software version: 1.01.01.23
 Hardware version: 01-00-00-19-23
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

Current configuration (after 1.01.01.27 update):
 Software version: 1.01.01.27
 Hardware version: 01-00-00-21-23
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

EDIT 16 December 2016: added info to remember further configurations:
Configuration (after 1.01.01.37R2 update in ~2015):
 Software version: 1.01.01.37R2
 Hardware version: 01-00-00-23-23
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

Configuration (after 1.01.01.37R3 update 16 December 2016):
Boot strap number 96
 Software version: 1.01.01.37R3
 Hardware version: 01-00-23-23 <-- No change for the first time after an update
 Serial number: SDG00002120XXX

[BMac]

Yeah, If you read the Lecroy Manual it is correct, (refers to the correct buttons etc).

BMac

[BMac]

Thanks, for  the post on the instructions, do you have anywhere that you can post the file for the rest of us?

Thanks,

BMac

[nixxon]

I have added a dropbox download link in my post above (3 posts up). 

I have never figured out how to set dBm output attenuation on the SDG1020. I can't find it mentioned in the manual either.

Can anyone tell me how to set "dBm output" attenuation level on a SDG1020?

I could not see, hear, smell or sense in any other way that my unit had changed in any way after the update. I wonder if there is a release note somewhere that could shed some light on what is new.

[Tepe]

I have added a dropbox download link in my post above (3 posts up). 

Thank you.

I have just successfully applied your update file to my SDG1020.
This particular unit was previously running 1.01.01.15. Its hardware version is reported as 0f-00-00-21-22.

[alm]

So you guys are insisting on updating the firmware of your function gen, regardless if it fixes any bugs or adds any features? It may even introduce new problems.

[nixxon]

So you guys are insisting on updating the firmware of your function gen, regardless if it fixes any bugs or adds any features? It may even introduce new problems.

I didn't insist. I just did it. BTW, Mr. Herman wrote that the dBm output problem has been fixed with this most recent update (version...27).

I just don't know how to set the dB attenuation. Does anyone know?

[Tepe]

So you guys are insisting on updating the firmware of your function gen, regardless if it fixes any bugs or adds any features? It may even introduce new problems.

Well, it did add the useful feature that I can better read what it says on the screen. Version *.15 was horrible in that regard.

[Herman]

So you guys are insisting on updating the firmware of your function gen, regardless if it fixes any bugs or adds any features? It may even introduce new problems.

I didn't insist. I just did it. BTW, Mr. Herman wrote that the dBm output problem has been fixed with this most recent update (version...27).

I just don't know how to set the dB attenuation. Does anyone know?

In SDG1000, there is 3 kinds of voltage amplitude unit: Vpp,Vrms,dBm. just choice the dBm unit.

[Wuerstchenhund]

So you guys are insisting on updating the firmware of your function gen, regardless if it fixes any bugs or adds any features?

Well, a firmware update always contains bug fixes and/or adds any new features, otherwise it would be pointless.

And since the .23 firmware is not bug-free and at least one problem (dBm bug) has apparently been fixed, updating seems to be worthwile.

It may even introduce new problems.

Yes, it may introduce new problems, and considering that we're talking about Siglent here and not a Agilent or R&S, it's probably not unlikely that new bugs will show up. But if no-one tries we'll never find out, will we?

And if all fails it should be possible to go back to .23, or if that fails we have to wait for Siglent to bring another update which fixes the new problems, as we do now.

I agree that if you are dependent on a working AWG updating now may not be a good idea, but if an AWG is critical to you then you shouldn't use a Siglent in the first place.

[BMac]

So you guys are insisting on updating the firmware of your function gen, regardless if it fixes any bugs or adds any features? It may even introduce new problems.

Uhhhh....      that's what a firmware update is for, fixing bugs and adding features. Hmm better not cross the road, might get hit with a car, better not get out of bed may slip and fall , better not ..... well you see where I'm going here.

BMac

[alm]

You cross the road because you want to get to the other side of the road. You get out of bed because you don't get paid staying in bed, and because lying in bed all day is boring. There's a risk/benefit trade-off here. The risk of firmware updates from manufacturers is non-negligible (to them QA is a word on a label you stick on all of your products). The benefit appears to be questionable. Firmware updates may also be designed to work with new hardware revisions or solve problems you never had in the first place. Or they may remove features because a competitor filed a patent claim. Without a changelog it's hard to tell. So they fixed a bug related to dBm output levels. Unless you actually use this feature, it may be better to wait for the next update. Unless you consider the enjoyment of updating firmware important enough to risk the possible problems.

Even firmware updates from reputable manufacturers occasionally cause problems: a Gossen Metrahit Energy update wiped out the calibration constants, requiring a trip to Gossen or a cal lab.

[BMac]

Yeah a good place to get that kind of info, (determination weather it's worth the risk), is to read the release notes, and then let someone else do it first, ha ha.
But this is a fairly new product and it's quite typical for a new product these days to have several fw updates right out of the box, classic fight between eng and marketing to get a new product out.
But your advice is well sounded.
Thank you,

BMac

[Wuerstchenhund]

The risk of firmware updates from manufacturers is non-negligible (to them QA is a word on a label you stick on all of your products). The benefit appears to be questionable.

Strange, I have done lots of firmware updates on various devices, and while there was the occasional lemon amongst them the majority has proven to be beneficial.

Firmware updates may also be designed to work with new hardware revisions

Yes, but then they are flashed directly into production units and not offered for download or sent out to customers.

or solve problems you never had in the first place. Or they may remove features because a competitor filed a patent claim. Without a changelog it's hard to tell.

I agree a changelog would be nice. But there's nothing wrong with testing a new firmware and going back to the previous version if really necessary. At the end of the day, we're talking about a cheap Chinese-made device which has it's fair share of issues as most devices in this class. If you require changelogs and tested firmware then you should buy the much more expensive variant from LeCroy.

So they fixed a bug related to dBm output levels. Unless you actually use this feature, it may be better to wait for the next update. Unless you consider the enjoyment of updating firmware important enough to risk the possible problems.

One of the bugs fixed is the dBm bug. There may be others but without changelog we won't find out. There may also be new issues but if no-one tries the firmware we won't find out as well. If your livelihood depends on a working Siglent AWG then I agree flashing new firmware may be too risky (but then you should really think about buying some proper gear with appropriate support contracts). For the rest of us who use this thing as a hobby device or have more than one AWG there's no reason why we can't try a new firmware.

And why should one wait for the next update?

Even firmware updates from reputable manufacturers occasionally cause problems: a Gossen Metrahit Energy update wiped out the calibration constants, requiring a trip to Gossen or a cal lab.

Yes, even reputable manufacturers can sometimes put up a lemon firmware (even when in my experience failed firmware updates are much more often caused by a non-obvious problem with the device that's flashed.). The majority of updates however are not causing problems and work as designed.

Saying not to flash new firmware updates because they might cause problems is the same as saying you should never buy electronic devices as they might be DOA.

And again, you should consider what device we're talking about, and in what environment such devices are generally used.

[mimmus78]

After a fast check with Siglent, firmware file SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P27.ADS was good also for updating my:

 - SDG1025
 - SOFT.V 1.01.01.23
 - HW.V 02-00-00-19-24[/li][/list]

to the latest version (27).

[RJdaMoD]

Hello,
i'm new to eevblog forum and was looking for an inexpensive arb-gen to fulfill my hobby-needs. Thanks to  aghp and his extensive testing i consider buying an SDG10xx.
I'm unsure about one thing though: The specs state that arbitrary waves can be generated with frequency up to 5MHz. Does this mean,
a) that the actual bandwidth in arb-mode is 5MHz, that is, a 5Mhz lowpass is switched between dac and bnc?
b) that the repetition rate of the arb-pattern is 5MHz at maximum, but the signal itself can have higher bandwidth?
In the last case, what is the maximum bandwidth in arb-mode?
At 125MSa/s, i assume that the analog circuitry will  diminish the theoretical 62.5MHz, but i would be really interested how far. Does the stated noise bandwidth relate to this?
From aghp`s tests a saw a rise time of 8ns for pulses with the SDG1010, which would equate to about 45MHz, while noise should be up to 10MHz.
I'm now somehow curious to know what happens in arb-mode. Could someone test this? I have attached a csv with 16 square cycles which would give a 62.5MHz square at 3.90625MHz, which of course should give a sine at this frequency, but lower would be interesting for me to see.
Thanks in advance!
Greetings from snowy germany ,
Roger

[rf-loop]

Just write Sin(10*x)x  in equation window and move this waveform .csv (10 cycle of sine) to generator arb memory using USB stick or USB cable. Use it and select 5MHz freq. You get 50MHz out. (attenuated). (vertical scaling is automatic to full p-p in memory)

Risetime is <8ns

Somewhere I have frequency response (level) tests but this time I can not find these and other works keep me busy now.

So in your text

b)  is right.

[RJdaMoD]

Thanks!
I currently have no access to an SDG, but i want to buy one and wonder if i should buy the 10 or 25MHz version. For my hobby needs,10 would be sufficient, but i would like to have the possibility to go higher.
So if arb does the job, it will be the 1010.
But what is the difference to 1025 then? Just firmware, or better parts in the signal path?

PS: I tried equation draw in easywave (1.7), but somehow it didn't work yesterday. Strangely your example works, although i could swear i tried the same yesterday, and it didn't work. Thus i generated the csv with another program, but essentially it is sin(16*x)/abs(sin(16*x)).

[RJdaMoD]

Hi, me again, my 1010 just arrived. It works pretty well, came with fw23. Since hw version is that of mimmus78, i could successfully apply the posted fw27 (thanks btw!). Arb bandwidth is ~62.5MHz as expected (of course just sines at this frequency), but there is some jitter in that range. Seems as if the dac clock is not that stable, but it's enough for me.
I have one question though: I can load arb waves via usb stick, and the SDG outputs the loaded wave as it should, but it is not saved in the selected arb place. Only way to store waves in the arb memory seems to be via easyWave. Can someone confirm this? Seems like a bug to me.
Greets, RJ

[Siglent]

Thank for you attention.
The question that you doubt is normal.
"load arb waves via usb stick" will store the "stored wforms" that distinguishes the arb wave store

[felixd]

Hello. I'm looking for some information about max Vpp of 10MHz ext signal. I tried to find in in all PDF files provided for SDG1025 but failed.
What I found is only max voltage information of AM ext modulation.

If my ref 10MHz signal is at 1.5 Vtop level should I convert it to TTL/CMOS level for Siglent?

For an external source, the depth of AM is controlled by the voltage level of
the connector connected to the [Modulation In]. ±6V corresponds to the
currently set depth 100%.

2nd question related: Is there any factory voltage standard for 10MHz reference signal?

Edit: http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/FA7810B075EF6A9F86256E5300616E51

[tautech]

Sorry I also could not find a definitive answer in my documentation.
There is mention of +/-6V in Chapter 2.7 of the user manual but this mention applied to use of modulation and this is probably just what you found also.
It should be safe to use these levels as max until we get confirmation from Siglent after the weekend.

But I'd suspect with only 1.5Vtop you'll need to use some level shifting to reach the TTL levels specified as needed for external inputs.
http://www.interfacebus.com/voltage_threshold.html

More info can be found in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/

[kwass]

Hello. I'm looking for some information about max Vpp of 10MHz ext signal. I tried to find in in all PDF files provided for SDG1025 but failed.
What I found is only max voltage information of AM ext modulation.

If my ref 10MHz signal is at 1.5 Vtop level should I convert it to TTL/CMOS level for Siglent?

For an external source, the depth of AM is controlled by the voltage level of
the connector connected to the [Modulation In]. ±6V corresponds to the
currently set depth 100%.

2nd question related: Is there any factory voltage standard for 10MHz reference signal?

Edit: http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/FA7810B075EF6A9F86256E5300616E51

This thread discusses the same issue: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-the-racal-dana-1992-as-an-external-reference-for-the-siglent-sdg1025/


If you need higher clock accuracy without using an external 10MHz source, you can pretty easily modify the SDG1025 to use an internal 25MHz TCXO.  I've done this and it works great for most stuff so that I only occasionally need to use the 10MHz input.  Here's how to do it: https://youtu.be/RxCDfNCLj08

[felixd]

@tautech: Thank you for your link.
@kwass: Thank you for your link as well. I'll use than 74HC14 to shift it to 3.3V.

[Siglent]

Hello. I'm looking for some information about max Vpp of 10MHz ext signal. I tried to find in in all PDF files provided for SDG1025 but failed.
What I found is only max voltage information of AM ext modulation.

If my ref 10MHz signal is at 1.5 Vtop level should I convert it to TTL/CMOS level for Siglent?

For an external source, the depth of AM is controlled by the voltage level of
the connector connected to the [Modulation In]. ±6V corresponds to the
currently set depth 100%.

2nd question related: Is there any factory voltage standard for 10MHz reference signal?

Edit: http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/FA7810B075EF6A9F86256E5300616E51

Hello Felixd,
    There is the data about max Voltage of 10MHz External trigger input signal:(For SDG1000)

    Refence Frequency Input   
Voltage level           5Vpp--5.5Vpp
Frequency range   10MHz±1kHz
Input impedance   ?5k?.AC coupling

Hope it can help you.
Best regards.

[felixd]

Of course it helps. Thank you so much

    There is the data about max Voltage of 10MHz External trigger input signal:(For SDG1000)

    Refence Frequency Input   
Voltage level           5Vpp--5.5Vpp
Frequency range   10MHz±1kHz
Input impedance   ?5k?.AC coupling

[smbaker]

If you need higher clock accuracy without using an external 10MHz source, you can pretty easily modify the SDG1025 to use an internal 25MHz TCXO. 

Silly noob question -- why is he preheating the PCB before soldering and desoldering? Is it due to the precision of the components?

[nctnico]

It just makes it easier to solder components in a multi-layer board especially if you have a low power iron. If you have a 80W iron it shouldn't be a problem unless the thermal reliefs are absent.

[kwass]

It just makes it easier to solder components in a multi-layer board especially if you have a low power iron. If you have a 80W iron it shouldn't be a problem unless the thermal reliefs are absent.

I had no problems at all with a 40 Watt station and no preheating.

[smbaker]

It just makes it easier to solder components in a multi-layer board especially if you have a low power iron. If you have a 80W iron it shouldn't be a problem unless the thermal reliefs are absent.

Ah, I see. I have a hot air station, so maybe I'll do that.

Now the only questions are whether or not to bother with it (I suppose more precision is always nice) and where to get the TCXO. The ebay listing mentioned in the video isn't there anymore. EBay has lots of 3.3V TCXOs, but a scarcity of 5V ones.

[tautech]

It just makes it easier to solder components in a multi-layer board especially if you have a low power iron. If you have a 80W iron it shouldn't be a problem unless the thermal reliefs are absent.

Ah, I see. I have a hot air station, so maybe I'll do that.

Now the only questions are whether or not to bother with it (I suppose more precision is always nice) and where to get the TCXO. The ebay listing mentioned in the video isn't there anymore. EBay has lots of 3.3V TCXOs, but a scarcity of 5V ones.

Here's some info for you:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/msg614956/#msg614956

[kwass]

Now the only questions are whether or not to bother with it (I suppose more precision is always nice) and where to get the TCXO. The ebay listing mentioned in the video isn't there anymore. EBay has lots of 3.3V TCXOs, but a scarcity of 5V ones.

I'll bet that this one will work fine:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-TCXO-0-1ppm-25-000MHz-25MHZ-Ultra-precision-Gold-Oscillator-FOR-audio-DIY-/131649190505?hash=item1ea6e73a69:g:uFgAAOSwQItUF9Lw

[smbaker]

I'll bet that this one will work fine:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-TCXO-0-1ppm-25-000MHz-25MHZ-Ultra-precision-Gold-Oscillator-FOR-audio-DIY-/131649190505?hash=item1ea6e73a69:g:uFgAAOSwQItUF9Lw

I saw that one. I wish it had a part number and a datasheet that would lend some legitimacy to it. The most I could find was a thread on another forum speculating that it's another manufacturer's part that's been gold-plated and remarked, and sold at a premium to unsuspecting audiophiles (some of whom will buy anything so long as it's gold). I'm not sure if that's true or not, but this part makes me suspicious.

[kwass]

I saw that one. I wish it had a part number and a datasheet that would lend some legitimacy to it. The most I could find was a thread on another forum speculating that it's another manufacturer's part that's been gold-plated and remarked, and sold at a premium to unsuspecting audiophiles (some of whom will buy anything so long as it's gold). I'm not sure if that's true or not, but this part makes me suspicious.

How about from here:  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/ONE-PIECE-PRECISION-0-3ppm-25MHz-25-000MHz-25M-DIP-TCXO-Support-bulk-orders/32297054283.html . 
This looks identical to the one I bought (says M.D.D on it)

[smbaker]

How about from here:  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/ONE-PIECE-PRECISION-0-3ppm-25MHz-25-000MHz-25M-DIP-TCXO-Support-bulk-orders/32297054283.html . 
This looks identical to the one I bought (says M.D.D on it)

Thanks, I went ahead and ordered a pair (always like to have an extra for something that takes so long in shipping) of those. When they arrive in a month or so, I'll perform the upgrade.

Scott

[electrongeek]

I am perhaps going to show a bit of noob ignorance here, but reading through the SDG1000 service manual, I don't see where a frequency calibration is performed. Or rather how the unit might be calibrated by a high accuracy/precision 10 MHz source, like my GPSDO. Can someone clue me in? Thanks.

[tautech]

I am perhaps going to show a bit of noob ignorance here, but reading through the SDG1000 service manual, I don't see where a frequency calibration is performed. Or rather how the unit might be calibrated by a high accuracy/precision 10 MHz source, like my GPSDO. Can someone clue me in? Thanks.

Welcome to the forum.

I imagine there will be parameters on Self cal that it need meet to pass.
To switch between internal clock and external use the ClKSource function in the Utility menu.

[rf-loop]

I am perhaps going to show a bit of noob ignorance here, but reading through the SDG1000 service manual, I don't see where a frequency calibration is performed. Or rather how the unit might be calibrated by a high accuracy/precision 10 MHz source, like my GPSDO. Can someone clue me in? Thanks.

Afaik, there is not  adjustment for internal frequency reference oscillator.

Accuracy Within 90daysv±50 ppm within 1 year ±100 ppm 18°C ~ 28°C
Temperature coefficient <5 ppm/°C

As long as it is inside specs it do what is promised and ok. If main board TP4 is out from specified 25MHz accuracy, then you write over equipment "Failed, need repair".

If want more accuracy there can use external reference.

(It can also modify using much higher accuracy TCXO or OCXO or DOCXO. Most easy mod is if use 25MHz models)

[electrongeek]

Wonder what the factory does to cal the 25 MHz clock, or do they make the assumption it is "close enough" from the start?

Just surprises me a little bit.

Thanks for your help gang.

[kwass]

Wonder what the factory does to cal the 25 MHz clock, or do they make the assumption it is "close enough" from the start?

I'm sure that they do.  The spec is within 50ppm, which is almost impossible not to achieve using a $0.15 crystal

[NivagSwerdna]

If you need higher clock accuracy without using an external 10MHz source, you can pretty easily modify the SDG1025 to use an internal 25MHz TCXO.  I've done this and it works great for most stuff so that I only occasionally need to use the 10MHz input.  Here's how to do it: https://youtu.be/RxCDfNCLj08

I was considering doing this... The video was made some time ago so I was wondering if anyone has done some further investigation in the meantime... specifically I'm wondering if it is possible to install the TCXO but leave the existing XTAL in place and avoid the fly lead to TP1.... it sort of looks like the TCXO might be a legitimate option and there might be firmware to switch between them?

Just a thought.

[kwass]

I was considering doing this... The video was made some time ago so I was wondering if anyone has done some further investigation in the meantime... specifically I'm wondering if it is possible to install the TCXO but leave the existing XTAL in place and avoid the fly lead to TP1.... it sort of looks like the TCXO might be a legitimate option and there might be firmware to switch between them?

I've changed mine to use a TCXO.  No firmware change is needed nor any other setting changes.  If you don't add the extra jumper wire the TCXO will not work.  If you leave in the old XTAL, I suspect that the TCXO output will swamp the XTAL oscillation and it will be ok, but that might not happen and you'll get some mixing of frequencies.  Why leave it in?

[uncle_bob]

I was considering doing this... The video was made some time ago so I was wondering if anyone has done some further investigation in the meantime... specifically I'm wondering if it is possible to install the TCXO but leave the existing XTAL in place and avoid the fly lead to TP1.... it sort of looks like the TCXO might be a legitimate option and there might be firmware to switch between them?

I've changed mine to use a TCXO.  No firmware change is needed nor any other setting changes.  If you don't add the extra jumper wire the TCXO will not work.  If you leave in the old XTAL, I suspect that the TCXO output will swamp the XTAL oscillation and it will be ok, but that might not happen and you'll get some mixing of frequencies.  Why leave it in?

The bigger problem is that the feedback *through* the crystal will give you a really wacked out load impedance on the TCXO. That will not help it's stability at all.

Bob

[Muxr]

If you need higher clock accuracy without using an external 10MHz source, you can pretty easily modify the SDG1025 to use an internal 25MHz TCXO.  I've done this and it works great for most stuff so that I only occasionally need to use the 10MHz input.  Here's how to do it: https://youtu.be/RxCDfNCLj08

I was considering doing this... The video was made some time ago so I was wondering if anyone has done some further investigation in the meantime... specifically I'm wondering if it is possible to install the TCXO but leave the existing XTAL in place and avoid the fly lead to TP1.... it sort of looks like the TCXO might be a legitimate option and there might be firmware to switch between them?

Just a thought.

Found I think that same part on aliexpress. I will give it a try once it slow boats to me. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/ONE-PIECE-PRECISION-0-3ppm-25MHz-25-000MHz-25M-DIP-TCXO-Support-bulk-orders/32297054283.html

[OE2WHP]

Any update here? Did the Aliexpress Part fit?
If so, I would order it as well.

thanks
73

[electrongeek]

Just finished installing a TCXO. Getting at or better than .04 ppm accuracy at 25 MHz on initial testing with a GPSDO referenced counter at room temperature. Stable output. is listed on ebay as:
1PCS TCXO 0.3PPM 25MHz 25.000MHZ Ultra precision Oscillator

Very nice upgrade!

[OE2WHP]

Hi,

does anyone know a source for this 25MHz 0.3ppm TCXO?

Thanks

[SouthPark]

Hi everybody. I'm assuming that a lot of people here have a SDG-1025 arbitrary function generator, or similar model.

I got a small question about the Amplitude Modulation (AM) generation mode. I notice that - as soon as I switch from normal sine-wave generator mode to the AM generation mode, the AM carrier amplitude measures (using an oscilloscope with the SDG-1025 set to Hi-Z mode) to be half the peak-to-peak value of the LCD display setting.

So, if the LCD display says '2 V peak to peak' for the AM carrier amplitude (with ZERO modulation), the oscilloscope measures half of that, ie. measures 1 V peak to peak.

Anybody else get the same thing on their SDG-1025 in AM generation mode?

Everything is fine in the usual function generator sinewave mode. But once I flick over to AM generation, the measured carrier amplitude always turns out to be half of the LCD display setting for carrier amplitude (in peak-to-peak values).

I notice that I'm getting the same behaviour for a GW-instek AFG-2105, so I must be really missing something here heheheh.


Kenny.

[tautech]

Hi everybody. I'm assuming that a lot of people here have a SDG-1025 arbitrary function generator, or similar model.

I got a small question about the Amplitude Modulation (AM) generation mode. I notice that - as soon as I switch from normal sine-wave generator mode to the AM generation mode, the AM carrier amplitude measures (using an oscilloscope with the SDG-1025 set to Hi-Z mode) to be half the peak-to-peak value of the LCD display setting.

So, if the LCD display says '2 V peak to peak' for the AM carrier amplitude (with ZERO modulation), the oscilloscope measures half of that, ie. measures 1 V peak to peak.

Anybody else get the same thing on their SDG-1025 in AM generation mode?

Everything is fine in the usual function generator sinewave mode. But once I flick over to AM generation, the measured carrier amplitude always turns out to be half of the LCD display setting for carrier amplitude (in peak-to-peak values).

I notice that I'm getting the same behaviour for a GW-instek AFG-2105, so I must be really missing something here heheheh.


Kenny.

If you've got the latest firmware installed I'm suspecting you have a termination mismatch.
Scope input set to 50 ?
In which case if you change the AWG output to 50 displayed amplitude should then be correct.

[SouthPark]

If you've got the latest firmware installed I'm suspecting you have a termination mismatch.
Scope input set to 50 ?
In which case if you change the AWG output to 50 displayed amplitude should then be correct.

Hi tautech! Thanks for the note about firmware. I haven't yet installed the latest. I will try that.

The oscilloscope's input impedance is 1 MOhm,  so I've set the SDG1025 load impedance to hi-Z to tell it that the load impedance is high impedance. Everything is perfect in regular sine-wave generation mode (ie. not in modulation/AM etc mode). So in regular function gen mode, if I enter 2 V p-p on the panel, the oscilloscope will measure 2 V p-p. But, once I push the MOD button for AM generation, the amplitude on the scope's display immediately becomes one-half of the front panel value.

Also, if I  set the SDG1025 load impedance setting to 50 Ohm, and if I add a 50 Ohm termination across the input of the scope, the same behaviour occurs. The measured amplitude of the sinusoid becomes halved as soon as I hit the MOD button (to get into the AM mode).

What really surprised me a lot was - I noticed this halving thing on a GW-instek AFG-2105. So I then decided to see what I get for a SDG1025, and I get the same behaviour, which I wasn't expecting at all.

So I thought I'd post my observations here to see if anybody else with a SDG1025 observes the same thing. And to see whether the issue is me not understanding the function generator's 'AM Carrier Amplitude' setting definition, or whether it is a firmware/software issue. Will try a firmware update!

There is a work-around for this halving issue though. ie keep the scope input at 1 MegaOhm (without 50 Ohm termination), and then deliberately set the SDG-1025 load impedance setting to '50 Ohm' (even though the actual load impedance is 1 MegaOhm). That at least makes the front panel value match the measurement value.

Thanks again Tautech!

Kenny

[SouthPark]

Hi again tautech! Back again. Just checked the firmware and noticed it matches the latest version. I might have a chat to a Siglent representative to discuss this observation about the SDG1025 measured AM carrier amplitude (with zero modulation) being half of the front panel LCD setting. I'll give an update on this thread if I get some info about this. Thanks once again!

[rf-loop]

Hi again tautech! Back again. Just checked the firmware and noticed it matches the latest version. I might have a chat to a siglent representative to discuss this observation about the SDG-1025 AM carrier amplitude (with zero modulation) being half of the front panel LCD setting. Thanks once again.

This is how it works. If you compare to real RF generator. Typically  they keep carrier level.


SDG5000 (and if I remember right also SDG1000).
When you turn AM mod on carrier drop 6dBm. Independent of modulation sidebands levels.
If you select (no mod) sinewave level 1Vpp. Then turn AM on and depth 0% amplitude is 6dB less 500mVpp
Now if you change mod depth from 0 to 120% carrier level stay still constant and sidebands are how they are.
Just "know your equipment".

So, if you want 0 dBm  carrier and AM mod. Just set +6dBm level.
Now if you have 0% mod you get only carrier and level 0dBm
If you now set 100% mod. You have 0dBm carrier and two -6dBm side bands.
If you set 50% mod you have now 0dBm carrier and two -12dBm side bands

It may feel strange but it may have some explanation.
If we take oscilloscope  and look.

Lets think we have  set  sine wave and AM mod off and level 1Vpp.
We can see level is 1Vpp.  Now keep level setting.
Turn AM on but keep 0%. We can see 500mVpp. 
What we see if turn mod 100%.  We see now that modulated signal and level is 1Vpp.
It is made so that with 100% mod it do not exceed set level.
If user want set SDG maximal level what it can output. Then user turn AM on and 0% level is half. If he turn AM mod 100% output is now this max peak-peak. 
If it works different and it keep carrier level as user have set with AM off, what user think if it can not modulate.

Of course it is possible to do different but who then define how it need show exactly in all circumstances and how to message and prevent possible situations when mod depth need reject or prevent some level settings depending if user turn AM mod on..etc..  Specially when user use dBm level setting and if AM is on is it better show carrier level dBm - perhaps.  (now it show what is peak level IF mod depth is 100% (as it also show Vpp level IF  modulation is 100%)  Wrong or right for Function generator - but this is how it works.

[SouthPark]

This is how it works. If you compare to real RF generator. Typically  they keep carrier level.

Thanks RF Loop! Thanks for commenting about that AM feature. It is somewhat confusing - not your explanation - but rather the definition of AM Carrier Amplitude as the way that they seem to re-define it. They should really define it as exactly that ... AM Carrier Amplitude (bare carrier, no modulation). But at least we can easily compensate, by just doubling the value that we type into the front panel for AM mode.

Hopefully they define their setting properly (in future). It should be something like 'Maximum Peak-to-Peak AM Waveform Amplitude at 100 percent modulation depth' or 'Maximum Peak-to-Peak AM Signal Amplitude at 100 percent modulation depth'. I reckon it's technically wrong for them (all) to define it as 'AM Carrier Amplitude'. The carrier is the carrier. While the combination of carrier multiplied with a adequately DC-shifted message is an AM waveform - which is no longer 'carrier', unless the message drops to zero.

Thanks again RFLoop.

Kenny

[rf-loop]

Here is how it is checked. (SDG5k  but it works with this function very similar with SDG1k)



Set sinewave, level -4dBm
(AM modulation with 10Hz sinewave , carrier 3.7MHz)
SSA RBW 1Hz





Trace A  AM off  (carrier level -4dBm) (image)

Turn Mod on, AM, mod frequency 10Hz, MOD 0%, check carrier level is now -10dBm
Also checked that AM 0% same carrier level, in this case -10dBm (these checks not in image because SSA have only 4 traces)
After then Set AM 100%, 50% and 3.1% (image)
Trace B  AM on 100%  (carrier -10dBm, sideband -6dBc)
Trace C  AM on 50%    (carrier -10dBm, sideband -12dBc)
Trace D  AM on 3.1%   (carrier -10dBm, sideband -36dBc)





As first image but vertical scale 5dB/div and marker table off.

Note: Traces priority draw order when overlay: D, C, B, A   so carriers with AM on all same and there only D visible, B and C exactly behind and not visible.

[SouthPark]

Very very nice results and work RFloop! Thanks for showing those nice measurements. I didn't think of using the spectrum to check on the carrier level like that. It's excellent as it shows in a very clear way that they really dropped the carrier power by 6 dBm when the AM mode is turned on - producing half the voltage setting entered by the user on the front panel.

The easy fix would be for the Siglent team to create a firmware update so that the SDG1025 voltage (in AM generation mode only) becomes TWICE the value that is being "currently" generated (in both Hi-Z and 50 Ohm load setting modes).

I think the issue is that the manufacturers are riding on the same train of thought, and incorrectly saying that 'carrier  Ac.cos(wc.t)' is the same as 'modulated carrier (ie. AM signal)'. Once AM modulation occurs, the waveform is no longer 'the carrier Ac.cos(wc.t)'. Instead, 'an AM signal' results. Their erroneous definition of AM carrier amplitude appears to be "maximum peak to peak amplitude of AM signal at 100 percent modulation depth" or "max peak to peak amplitude of modulated carrier at 100 percent mod depth".

Thanks again for putting up those measurements RFloop. Appreciated.

[SouthPark]

Hello RFloop! A Siglent representative very kindly passed on my question to the Siglent factory about the voltage halving of the unmodulated carrier (in AM generation mode). It was kindly indicated by the Siglent representative that the factory will be working on the fix. The fix will NOT be in the upcoming firmware, since that one is in pre-release testing stages. But the fix will likely be in the firmware that comes after that one. Siglent seem to be top notch in assessing the questions and doing something about issues where appropriate. My rating of them  ---->