Author Topic: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour  (Read 10211 times)

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Offline ahopeTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2018, 10:14:39 am »
Thanks for the pics Tautech. It is clear that my R407 is damaged.
From your picture it looks like a 1R shunt next to the 0R010 R407 shunt.
I am guessing, but going from the 6A scale to the 0600mA scale it will switch from using R408 to R407 as shunt.
So if R407 is damaged, the shunt value will be off, giving the wrong reading?

I am tempted to try to replace R407. Anyone know exactly what spec/type part I should get from digikey or other distributor?

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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2018, 06:57:08 pm »
Thanks for the pics Tautech. It is clear that my R407 is damaged.
From your picture it looks like a 1R shunt next to the 0R010 R407 shunt.
I am guessing, but going from the 6A scale to the 0600mA scale it will switch from using R408 to R407 as shunt.
So if R407 is damaged, the shunt value will be off, giving the wrong reading?

I am tempted to try to replace R407. Anyone know exactly what spec/type part I should get from digikey or other distributor?
First you need to identify the SMD size and then of course to maintain accuracy get a low tolerance/low tempco device.
Here's a chart so you can compare physical measurement:



But hold off on ordering anything just yet until we hear what the factory says.....just in case they are willing to send you a replacement PCB.
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Offline ahopeTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2018, 08:30:56 pm »
thanks a lot. 

i will take good time before replacing this shunt. its a precision part, so I want to make sure I make a good replacement if I have to.

Rough measurements puts it at 6.5x3.5mm or thereabouts. The «F» indicates a 1% tolerance part.  But I have no idea if it is a 1w, 2w or something else. 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2018, 08:42:17 pm »
thanks a lot. 

i will take good time before replacing this shunt. its a precision part, so I want to make sure I make a good replacement if I have to.
:-+

Quote
Rough measurements puts it at 6.5x3.5mm or thereabouts.

= SMD 2312 (imp) or 6032 (metric)
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2018, 02:10:42 am »
Perhaps it is also a good idea to put two big diodes anti-parallel to the shunt. That is the recommended way to prevent an overcurrent (surge) from damaging a shunt resistor. Also looking at the size of the resistor it doesn't look like it has been properly sized for handling 10A continuously (= 1 Watt of heat dissipation). The resistor may be rated for 1W (or even more) but those ratings are always in ideal circumstances and running the resistor at the absolute maximum temperature. Derating 3 to 4 times is not a bad idea. A through hole current sense resistor made of thick wire is much more forgiving when it comes to abuse compared to an SMT resistor (AFAIK there are SMT current sensing resistors made entirely from metal but these aren't cheap).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 02:27:16 am by nctnico »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2018, 06:14:19 am »
Perhaps it is also a good idea to put two big diodes anti-parallel to the shunt. That is the recommended way to prevent an overcurrent (surge) from damaging a shunt resistor. Also looking at the size of the resistor it doesn't look like it has been properly sized for handling 10A continuously (= 1 Watt of heat dissipation). The resistor may be rated for 1W (or even more) but those ratings are always in ideal circumstances and running the resistor at the absolute maximum temperature. Derating 3 to 4 times is not a bad idea. A through hole current sense resistor made of thick wire is much more forgiving when it comes to abuse compared to an SMT resistor (AFAIK there are SMT current sensing resistors made entirely from metal but these aren't cheap).

Of course it can not handle 10A continuously. No one have made it for continuous 10A and no one have promised it can handle 10 continuously. So why this straw man argument?

Specifications for SDM3045X:
Current:
30 seconds OFF after 30 seconds ON is recommend for the continuous current that higher than DC 7 A or AC RMS 7 A.

Also in based to image image and other info it looks like 2W but also this same size some are rated for 1W. measuring from image without good reference for dimensions is just guessing.  But then @ahope: "Rough measurements puts it at 6.5x3.5mm or thereabouts." So perhaps size is 6432 metric size (2512).

Now if we look Siglent recommendation in data sheet and use 10A. 30sec on 30sec off. (1W 30sec and then cooling 30sec) average 500mW.   Then if look continuous 7A. It means 490mW. 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2018, 08:53:04 am »
Perhaps it is also a good idea to put two big diodes anti-parallel to the shunt. That is the recommended way to prevent an overcurrent (surge) from damaging a shunt resistor. Also looking at the size of the resistor it doesn't look like it has been properly sized for handling 10A continuously (= 1 Watt of heat dissipation). The resistor may be rated for 1W (or even more) but those ratings are always in ideal circumstances and running the resistor at the absolute maximum temperature. Derating 3 to 4 times is not a bad idea. A through hole current sense resistor made of thick wire is much more forgiving when it comes to abuse compared to an SMT resistor (AFAIK there are SMT current sensing resistors made entirely from metal but these aren't cheap).

Of course it can not handle 10A continuously. No one have made it for continuous 10A and no one have promised it can handle 10 continuously. So why this straw man argument?

Specifications for SDM3045X:
Current:
30 seconds OFF after 30 seconds ON is recommend for the continuous current that higher than DC 7 A or AC RMS 7 A.

Also in based to image image and other info it looks like 2W but also this same size some are rated for 1W. measuring from image without good reference for dimensions is just guessing.  But then @ahope: "Rough measurements puts it at 6.5x3.5mm or thereabouts." So perhaps size is 6432 metric size (2512).

Now if we look Siglent recommendation in data sheet and use 10A. 30sec on 30sec off. (1W 30sec and then cooling 30sec) average 500mW.   Then if look continuous 7A. It means 490mW.
Well it says 10A on the spec sheet I pulled from a website quickly. And it also says 10A on the front of the SDM3055 DMM without a time limit (at least on the pictures I've been able to find). Usually when there is a time limit this is also printed on the front. Either way adding the two diodes is still a good suggestion because it would have prevented the damage seen by the OP. The SDM3055 isn't a particulary cheap instrument to begin with anyway so some protection against user errors would be nice.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 08:54:44 am by nctnico »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2018, 09:00:34 am »
RTFM !
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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2018, 09:05:55 am »
Perhaps it is also a good idea to put two big diodes anti-parallel to the shunt. That is the recommended way to prevent an overcurrent (surge) from damaging a shunt resistor.

You mean something like this (Multimeters often use a bridge rectifier to get 2 or 3 diodes in series):
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2018, 09:44:25 am »
Perhaps it is also a good idea to put two big diodes anti-parallel to the shunt. That is the recommended way to prevent an overcurrent (surge) from damaging a shunt resistor.
You mean something like this (Multimeters often use a bridge rectifier to get 2 or 3 diodes in series):

This looks more like a circuit to protect the input circuitry against an open current shunt and not to protect the shunt itself. But if the shunt resistor is already operating very near it's design limits then it won't work ofcourse.
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Online HKJ

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2018, 09:48:31 am »
You mean something like this (Multimeters often use a bridge rectifier to get 2 or 3 diodes in series):

This looks more like a circuit to protect the input circuitry against an open current shunt and not to protect the shunt itself. But if the shunt resistor is already operating very near it's design limits then it won't work ofcourse.

Just about any multimeter uses a diode bridge across the uA and mA shunt, usual there is only fuse protection for the 10A shunt.

This meter also has another trick to protect the uA and mA ranges: It will auto range to higher range when it is overloaded, also when auto range is disabled.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 09:50:04 am by HKJ »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2018, 12:13:16 pm »
Just about any multimeter uses a diode bridge across the uA and mA shunt, usual there is only fuse protection for the 10A shunt.

This meter also has another trick to protect the uA and mA ranges: It will auto range to higher range when it is overloaded, also when auto range is disabled.
Either way the current sensing circuit shouldn't be damaged by an overcurrent. Or put differently: the current sensing circuit should survive until the fuse blows (which in the case of the Siglent 3045X DMM means the resistor is underrated / insufficiently protected).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 12:27:55 pm by nctnico »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2018, 01:51:40 pm »
Another thingvthat bothers me: why did the internal fuse blow and not the external? and why didi it not protect the internals?

Can you explain bit more this situation when this overload happen when Fuse blow. Also was it first time when any fuse blow in its history or have you previously changed back panel fuse. I mean, is is so that both fuses was original fuses after factory.

Then can you also explain exactly what happen in this case when this overload happen. What kind of current source. Its voltage and what kind of very short time peak current it can produce or some info for somehow estimate it.

Back panel Fuse is 10A and internal fuse is 12A.  (I do not know what kind of speed class they are and need be, but my opinion is that least back panel Fuse need be fast(F) or very fast (FF))

Because it is weird that internal blow first, really weird. It must not happen. Si it is good to know bit more about it.



Also I want bit criticize towards Siglent.

10A fuse in place what can not last continuous 10A load. Newer seen fuses characteristics (I2t, arcing time, clearing time)?
For enough protection it need be very special 10A fuse if it need open before damage in all circumstances including also small long time over current or fast very high short circuit peak. Also even if it is aka "ultra fast"  fuse (or what ever factory have installed (right or accidentally wrong)  and designed)  normal user without enough education and shared information may change wrong type fuse. Ampere and dimensions is not enough information.

For example, if a current of 20A was flowing through a fuse rated at 10A, a very fast acting fuse might open in 0.1 seconds, a fast acting fuse may open in one second, whilst a slow acting fuse may take tens of seconds to open.

FF   Very Fast Acting Fuse (Flink Flink)
F   Fast Acting Fuse (Flink)
M   Medium Acting Fuse (Mitteltrage)
T   Slow Acting Fuse  (Trage)
TT   Very Slow Acting Fuse  (Trage Trage)
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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2018, 02:40:51 pm »
RTFM !

To be fair, I looked over both the Quick Start Guides and the User's Manuals for the SDM3045X and SDM3055 and nowhere is the 7A/30sec recommendation to be found.  Only in the Datasheets are there tiny little footnotes describing this.  Something this important should probably be mentioned in those documents at least, and since no one really reads manuals any more, it might have been nice to have that on the front or back panel.

Honestly, knowing that there was a 10A fuse protecting the 10A range, I assumed 10A measurement was probably not a good idea.  But I certainly didn't remember the 7A/30sec recommendation until I went back through and found the footnote.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 02:42:57 pm by BillB »
 
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Offline ahopeTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2018, 07:31:07 pm »
A little background on the blown fuse.

The instrument was almost unused, bought new a couple of montgs before.
I was probing inside a chassis and accidentally touched the 220v and poof! it blew. quite a bang actually, those fuses dont go quietly,

The internal fuse is a 12A slow ceramic, the rear fuse a fast 10A. makes absolutley no sense that the internal should blow before the rear fuse.

This is the one and only fuse I have had to replace on this instrument.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2018, 07:34:47 pm »
The internal fuse is a 12A slow ceramic, the rear fuse a fast 10A. makes absolutley no sense that the internal should blow before the rear fuse.

This is the one and only fuse I have had to replace on this instrument.
No sense at all !

As mentioned earlier I've seen this before in SDM3065X.
Questions to the factory have been asked.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2018, 08:06:24 pm »
A little background on the blown fuse.

The instrument was almost unused, bought new a couple of montgs before.
I was probing inside a chassis and accidentally touched the 220v and poof! it blew. quite a bang actually, those fuses dont go quietly,

The internal fuse is a 12A slow ceramic, the rear fuse a fast 10A. makes absolutley no sense that the internal should blow before the rear fuse.

This is the one and only fuse I have had to replace on this instrument.
If you compare the graphs of the fuses you'll probably see the time to open is identical so it is not a surprise they both blew. In mains installations the rule is to go two sizes up when putting fuses in series to get proper selectivity. Over here common values are 4,6,10,16,20,25,30 and 35A. If you have a 10A fuse then the upstream fuse should be at least 20A to make sure only the 10A fuse blows. Siglent probably put the 12A fuse on the board to make sure there is some safety when the user replaced the fuse with a piece of wire. Unfortunately 12A is way to close to 10A for this trick to work. A better way would be to install a user replaceable 7A fuse to make sure the internal 12A fuse doesn't blow. This likely doesn't solve the problem with the current sense resistor becoming damaged though. A fuse isn't the answer to protecting components. A fuse is there to prevent fire.

For example: the VC8145 bench DMMs have a 13A fuse even though they are rated for 20A for 15s (the latter is also printed on the front of the VC8145). Remember a fuse is designed to carry the rated current forever so it will only blow when there is a significantly larger current flowing through it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 08:32:32 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2018, 08:34:19 pm »
Any observant hobbyist has witnessed the different characteristics between FB and SB fuses even of the same A rating and IME 12A SB (on PCB) and 10A FB (rear panel) would indeed be sufficient to protect an instrument and give correct cascading of fuse failure/opening.

But here this has not happened (2x IME) so tests must be made to discover why.

Could the fuses be installed incorrectly or the fuse rating characteristics be called into question ?

Careful tests need be made to discover if fuse behavior is 'as designed' and if it isn't, could this have contributed to shunt damage.

Has the factory changed fuse supplier.....there are many things yet to be discovered.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 08:36:45 pm by tautech »
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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2018, 09:10:59 pm »
Any observant hobbyist has witnessed the different characteristics between FB and SB fuses even of the same A rating and IME 12A SB (on PCB) and 10A FB (rear panel) would indeed be sufficient to protect an instrument and give correct cascading of fuse failure/opening.
That depends entirely on the current and voltage. Compare Littlefuse 216 and 218 series for example. The fast acting opens within a second at 25A and the slow one at 30A. All in all the difference is much smaller than you'd expect. And at mains voltages there is also the effect of arcing which doesn't interrupt the circuit right away. There is a good reason why mains installations require a large margin between downstream/upstream fuses! There is no sense in denying that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 09:23:15 pm by nctnico »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2018, 10:14:36 pm »
A little background on the blown fuse.

The instrument was almost unused, bought new a couple of montgs before.
I was probing inside a chassis and accidentally touched the 220v and poof! it blew. quite a bang actually, those fuses dont go quietly,

The internal fuse is a 12A slow ceramic, the rear fuse a fast 10A. makes absolutley no sense that the internal should blow before the rear fuse.

This is the one and only fuse I have had to replace on this instrument.

Do you have still available data how these fuses was marked...  All markings what can find in one fuse end or how ever they have marked voltage, current and speed class. Example (F 10A 250V) or how ever they are.

Also, it need note that some glass fuses 5x20mm have really very low interrupt rating what may reach quite easy in total short circuit (depending source impedande)

Then over current - time - break curves can be really unpredictable, there may be really wide tolerances. In one manufacture lot one 10A fuse may break after 10s 15A but and 1s 25A and 0.1s 60A and 0.01s perhaps 200A and 0.001s perhaps 1000A. And then, min and max curves may differ really lot.
Of course these depends fuse type. But fast or ultra fast and slow fuses have not very big difference in some circumstances in practice even if I2t is many fold.
Some 5x20 glass fuse may have as low as 35A - 100A interrupt rating. (means that if current is more big it can not break in worst cases, example Littelfuse type 218   <4A and example 10A  have 100A interrupt rating and some other type have 10kA)

If really want build, using fuses, even some kind of circuit (passive) component protection it really need do lot of study and tests and very extremely carefully and clever select fuses. Mostly no one do it seriously. And it can understand because result is still poor or just borderline And still not for usual semiconductors.
Fuse is, as nctnico told, more like preventing fire etc.  (as told, of course also some amount circuit protection. But as can see if really look fuses true data... 10A fuse make still over 1000A short peak possible.

Why internal 12A blow and not external 10A.  There may be several and also natural reason. One reason may be fuses tolerances in over current time curves. It can be very possible that if short circuit current is example 50A first blow 12A and after it blow 10A is still ok condition if both are not in they tolerances middle ones.. if other is from other side and other is from other side of normal distribution it is very possible even if external 10A is F(ast) and internal 12A fuse is T(race)

Even if there is example under 10A fuse (yes it can and 10A not continuous measurement is possible)
There can be  still very high maximum short circuit current (if source can feed it). In this game it do not mean lot if short maximum  is reduced by fuse to 200A instead of 250A or how ever it is)

Here one tiny example about time current curve (average - and it mean that every fuse have min and max curve and area between these are big.)

But then, here is just ONE example about one type min and max curves. All fuses have different these curves. This may give some imagine how tolerances may affect and give one possible explanation also for this case. As can see differences in min and max is huge.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 10:25:48 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2018, 10:29:00 pm »
SDM3065X
Rear panel fuse: 5x20 glass LF (Littlefuse) marking: T10AL250VP 

Internal PCB fuse: 5x20 HRC LF (Littlefuse) marking: T12A250VP
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 08:09:00 am by tautech »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2018, 05:58:29 am »
SDM3065X
Rear panel fuse: 5x20 glass LF (Littlefuse) marking: 10AL250VP  As per datasheet spec this should be FB fuse.
Internal PCB fuse: Later when more time available............ but already we know it's ceramic.

"10AL250VP"

Is it possible there is installed wrong fuses?
(Need ask because China and fuses - I do not wonder anything. I have seen there with my own eyes so much...)

Where is speed identifier? It need be before current.

Here is Littelfuse 5x20 cap marking

Littelfuse product catalog and design guide, small fuse "bible"
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 06:18:40 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2018, 06:33:56 am »
A little background on the blown fuse.

The instrument was almost unused, bought new a couple of montgs before.
I was probing inside a chassis and accidentally touched the 220v and poof! it blew. quite a bang actually, those fuses dont go quietly,

The internal fuse is a 12A slow ceramic, the rear fuse a fast 10A. makes absolutley no sense that the internal should blow before the rear fuse.

This is the one and only fuse I have had to replace on this instrument.

Do you still have this original rear panel 10A (not blown) fuse what was there installed at this time when internal 12A fuse blow.
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Offline ahopeTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2018, 07:14:56 am »

Do you still have this original rear panel 10A (not blown) fuse what was there installed at this time when internal 12A fuse blow.

Yes. I have checked it and it is indeed a 10A fast glass fuse
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDM3045X mA current measurement - weird behaviour
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2018, 07:35:58 am »
SDM3065X
Rear panel fuse: 5x20 glass LF (Littlefuse) marking: 10AL250VP  As per datasheet spec this should be FB fuse.
Internal PCB fuse: Later when more time available............ but already we know it's ceramic.

"10AL250VP"

Is it possible there is installed wrong fuses?
(Need ask because China and fuses - I do not wonder anything. I have seen there with my own eyes so much...)

Where is speed identifier? It need be before current.

Here is Littelfuse 5x20 cap marking

Littelfuse product catalog and design guide, small fuse "bible"
Rear panel fuse # corrected, it does indeed have T but maybe F or FF would be best.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 07:39:05 am by tautech »
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