Author Topic: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions  (Read 39720 times)

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Offline hgg

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SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« on: May 16, 2013, 05:23:17 AM »
Hello,

I received today my first oscilloscope and I am really excited!   :)
Its a really nice tool.

The quality of its construction is quite good actually.  The plastics feel nice, and do not have any
annoying smell.  The knobs are very good, except the small ones that could have been a bit more
solid.


photo hosting

I had no problem with the layout of the knobs apart from the general purpose (intensity/adjust)
that is too close to the big vertical Volts dial.  They had so much space above it, but they decided
to put it as close as they could to the vertical...   Go figure...


how to take screenshots

The big knobs feel very nice indeed and I love that they all have a push to center function.
It would have been a lot better design if all the knobs were the same as they big ones!
All the little rubber buttons are great, they have a positive feel and they are very well lit.
The On/Off switch is very springy and quite hard to press.


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All the connectors, USB, BNC, etc  feel solid.  Very nice.


how to do a screen shot

The display is very crisp and has excellent viewing angles.  You can see the pixels, so in the
same space they could have used a higher resolution one.  The display is for bench use only
because it goes dark fast if you look at it from below the horizontal.  From any other angle
its excellent!  I have not yet removed the protective cover from the screen but it looks like
that the lcd is protected with a glass.  Very nice.

The little plastic feet work fine.  When they are closed, the unit feels like that will fall on its
face because its a bit heavy in front.  So, you should use it all the time with the plastic feet
extended.

The probes feel a little cheap and fragile and this is probably because they are...   :)
Having said that, I did not have any problems with them all day today.  Maybe they will
show their quality in the Mhz range.  They were calibrated very easily.


image hosting 12mb


Some measurements.

- Power Consumption : 18.7 Watts
- Temperature : from 23 degrees Celcius ambient to 34 degrees after one hour of use.
                         The hottest part is the right side.
- Time to boot : 9 seconds.
- Time to Auto trigget its own signal : 5 seconds.   It can become much slower with different signals.
- You can hear a relay clicking when you change from 200mV to 500mV and from 50ns to 100ns
- Software Version  :  5.01.02.13
- Hardware Version :  11-62-3.3
- Sound Noise : Its a very quiet oscilloscope!  My house is very quite.  From a background noise
                         floor of 34.3dbC it goes to 49.6dbC 20cm from the actual fan.


One negative thing I found in the few hours I've played with it is that if you switch it off and then on
with a USB stick plugged in, it will not recognize it until you unplug it and plug it again.
Very annoying!  I think that this should be fixed in the next firmware version.

Other negative is that when you turn the vertical and horizontal dials, the indicator lines are lagging.
They are not instant and the waveform takes some time to be displayed again.  Definitely something
that needs to be fixed.

Some screen captures of different signals:

Its own 1kHz signal:

image hosting over 10mb

Several PWM ones:

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how to make screen shot


image hosting 10mb limit


image hosting no account

Bellow you can see a very nice sinewave with the probes not connected to anything...
50Hz, so its picking the mains frequency somehow.
Do you know how can I prevent this?
When I moved it to a different room it stopped.


upload photos

Now if I switch on the main light of the room I get the following signal.
Its not like that actually, because if I turn on 5sec persistence  I can see two different 50hz signals.
I can also see spikes when I turn on & off some lights in the room.


screen capture windows 7

So, these are my first impressions of the oscilloscope and I would have to say that in general
they are positive.   :-+

If you have any questions that I can help with, please feel free to ask.
Any suggestions for testing the oscilloscope functionality are welcomed.

Thank you.
George.



Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2013, 06:03:36 AM »
A nice basic scope. Quite similar to Rigol DS1000, but the screen and front panel is better. It even has print and single button.  :-+
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2013, 06:25:50 AM »
Nice review and great pictures! Saves me doing one for my Siglent SDS1102CNL (which is the same the CML minus the large 2M memory).

Quote
The probes feel a little cheap and fragile

Yes, the probes are really very cheap and flimsy, and probably won't survive long. I guess for all the money they put into the scope to make it good for that price they probably had to cut corners somewhere. But good standard probes (ie Testec) aren't that expensive so I don't think this is a major issue.

Aside from the problems you already mentioned, I also found some idiocracy in their logic for the RUN/STOP and SINGLE button. If you press RUN/STOP the scope stops its acquisition cycle as expected. But if you press RUN/STOP again it only does a single sweep. You have to actually press SINGLE to get the scope going again.

Maybe we should collect all the issues and then pester Siglent together for them to fix the problems.


Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2013, 06:29:19 AM »
Hello,

 I have not yet removed the protective cover from the screen but it looks like
that the lcd is protected with a glass.  Very nice.

The probes feel a little cheap and fragile and this is probably because they are...   :)
Having said that, I did not have any problems with them all day today.  Maybe they will
show their quality in the Mhz range.  They were calibrated very easily.

Other negative is that when you turn the vertical and horizontal dials, the indicator lines are lagging.
They are not instant and the waveform takes some time to be displayed again.  Definitely something
that needs to be fixed.

Bellow you can see a very nice sinewave with the probes not connected to anything...
50Hz, so its picking the mains frequency somehow.
Do you know how can I prevent this?
When I moved it to a different room it stopped.

Now if I switch on the main light of the room I get the following signal.
Its not like that actually, because if I turn on 5sec persistence  I can see two different 50hz signals.
I can also see spikes when I turn on & off some lights in the room.

Thank you.
George.

There is real true glass. You can take protective plastic off.

Probes are cheap and not best possible mechanically (and electrically they are just as chap probe is, no complex passive compensation circuits, not high class resistive coaxial...etc)).  And rotary joint to scope end BNC  is not very strong construction. But freq response is quite ok, as can see one my BW test image made using probe.

There is limit of processing capacity. With it need live. It is hard to make this faster. Of course if change  priority of processes but then perhaps some other thing suffer. It is compromise.

You see signals without connecting... just from "air"... ok, try with one meter wire as antenna...
If it do not pick-up electric field signals there is something wrong - and badly. This is just normal, take what ever oscilloscope and High-Z probes. Scope input is under 20pF and 1Mohm. Probe tip with 10x is 10Mohm (with small  parallel capasitance what do not mean anything with 50Hz) I'm very worry if it do not pick up these signals. Why it show 2 (or more) traces with persistence.. becouse signal have lot of variations and it trigs sometimes where ever. Just normal.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 06:35:47 AM by rf-loop »
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2013, 06:38:27 AM »
There is limit of processing capacity. With it need live. It is hard to make this faster. Of course if change  priority of processes but then perhaps some other thing suffer. It is compromise.

I don't think the delay between changing the time base or vertical setting and the time when the trace re-appears is a problem with processing capacity. It's much more likely that this is just a firmware bug. The scope is quite fast and this problem only occurs sometimes (at least on my CNL scope). I'm pretty sure Siglent can fix it easily in one of their next firmware releases - if they are aware of the problem, that is.

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2013, 06:51:35 AM »
There is limit of processing capacity. With it need live. It is hard to make this faster. Of course if change  priority of processes but then perhaps some other thing suffer. It is compromise.

I don't think the delay between changing the time base or vertical setting and the time when the trace re-appears is a problem with processing capacity. It's much more likely that this is just a firmware bug. The scope is quite fast and this problem only occurs sometimes (at least on my CNL scope). I'm pretty sure Siglent can fix it easily in one of their next firmware releases - if they are aware of the problem, that is.

Yes, of course also I hope it is as you think.


Btw, I know one "feature" in SDG FW and I just now have idea (perhaps wrong) it is propably same kind of reason... perhaps.  (there is my suspect that some lag in UI in SDG in some situations is related to user actual settings updating to setup memory (continuously) for next start up (if this feature is selected), and perhaps they have done it wrong way in SDG and now I just think if it is possible reason for this  lag.. ) Oscilloscope keep record about user settings. Next time you turn scope ON it use settings you last used. Diffrent scopes do this different way. Some scopes have several seconds period, some perhaps try do it always you change something. Some scopes have setting where you can select if next time it use factory default or "last".
Now I feel that it is possible this is somehow related to this.
 
In Siglent SDG1000 generator, if you select start up last settings it slows dramatically some adjustments, perhaps it store every change?
There need be some compromise.  Owon write settings to memory using perhaps too long period. If you change someting and soon shut off, it have not stored this new adjustment. Hantek use more short period for this. 

But, all this is now only mutual suspect about one possible reason for this in SDS1000 scopes. 
If it is this or not, I hope they add selection. Startup using "factory default" or "last state" or "setup memory number n".
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:23:16 PM by rf-loop »
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2013, 09:27:27 AM »


Aside from the problems you already mentioned, I also found some idiocracy in their logic for the RUN/STOP and SINGLE button. If you press RUN/STOP the scope stops its acquisition cycle as expected. But if you press RUN/STOP again it only does a single sweep. You have to actually press SINGLE to get the scope going again.
Really??   :wtf:
Amazing machines. http://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)

Offline rstoer

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2013, 10:31:33 AM »
It looks nice. Thanks for posting the photos. Best of luck with it!

Offline hgg

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 04:07:04 PM »
You are welcome!

Hydrawerk, the Print button is indeed very handy!

Wuerstchenhund it is a bit strange the way they are using the Single button. 
That confused me in the beginning.  Can you suggest which Testec probes will be good for this scope?

I removed the protective screen film and yes, its real glass.   :-+  for that

Another 'fault' in the UI is that when you press the Measurement button, it displays on the right
side 5 user selected measurements which is very handy, but labels and numbers all have the
same white colour!  How difficult is to think that if you use a different colour for the labels it will
be much more easily readable ???...   Come on... Simple things that make a difference.
They also should have used double lines for each measurement. 
Easier to see and space for 7 handy measurements.



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rf-loop I am playing with solar panels, and a 50hz sine wave is been displayed while
the probes are connected to its terminals and with the room lights off.  Only ambient light.
The scope is in AC coupling, 20mV, 5ms and the waveform is 180mV peak to peak.  If I use
the same setup on a different room, then its ok.   Strange.

Below its the same setup but with one room light on and 2sec persistence.
Can anybody decode what is happening???


how to do a screen shot

Another thing I noticed was that the frequency measurements I did with the Siglent and
the UT61E were exactly the same down to 2 decimal places!  Not bad.


Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »
Wuerstchenhund it is a bit strange the way they are using the Single button. 
That confused me in the beginning. 

It's probably not even by intention. As I said, I suspect this is just a bug.

Quote
Can you suggest which Testec probes will be good for this scope?

I once had some TT-MF312 (1x/10x, 250MHz) probes which were really good, but I guess for this scope even the TT-LF312 (1x/10x, 150MHz) should be sufficient.

Quote
Another 'fault' in the UI is that when you press the Measurement button, it displays on the right side 5 user selected measurements which is very handy, but labels and numbers all have the
same white colour! 

I don't really like the measurement boxes in the menue area (which should be limited to settings that can be changed, and not mixed with display of information). They should have placed them somewhere else, i.e. as a column on the left side of the screen or on the bottom.

Quote
They also should have used double lines for each measurement. 
Easier to see and space for 7 handy measurements.

For the "All" measurements they should have reduced the vertical graticule and put them as a block on the bottom, not having them hover in the middle of the waveform area, or again as a column on the left side of the screen (reducing the graticule length,

I also miss an indication of the current sample rate in the screen area (it's annoying to have to go into the aquisition menu, where the sample rate sits there as a menu point which suggests it can be altered by pressing on the associated soft key, which it can't.).

In addition, I also don't like that, when you switch off the menu by pressing MENU ON/OFF, the selected menu section (i.e. AQUISITION) remains illuminated even if the manu is switched off. The button should only be illuminated when the related menu is active, i.e. visible.

Offline hgg

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 06:32:52 PM »
Wuerstchenhund, you are right.  Exactly!  I totally agree with all the above!

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 06:40:15 PM »

In addition, I also don't like that, when you switch off the menu by pressing MENU ON/OFF, the selected menu section (i.e. AQUISITION) remains illuminated even if the manu is switched off. The button should only be illuminated when the related menu is active, i.e. visible.

Are you sure? ;)

Perhaps after few days you find reason why...
(you turn off menu only from display area but... )
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline hgg

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 06:54:14 PM »
Actually this might be handy, because if you press the 5 vertical display buttons
you would already know their function by looking at which option is lit.

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 07:09:59 PM »
It need think what is information. (menu led)

If only meaning is that led is on if menu is open visible on the screen and off if menu is not visible on the screen what information this led is for - nothing.  Situation  can know if just look display. So.. it can think, do it include some information. If only informatoin is show that menu is on or off on the TFT  this information can get if look TFT and this led can take off and save manufacture  costs some  tenth of jiao.

Menu can be displayed on the screen or it can be hide, also including this that meny can disappear from display automatically. You can shut off menu display automatically or manually but still this menu is active (but not on the screen area).  Also if display go screen save, still you can see what menu there is active and push button and do "blindly" setting in this active menu. This led is not there without reason. It give information, even if selected menu is not displayed.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:14:06 PM by rf-loop »
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 07:23:06 PM »
Are you sure? ;)

Perhaps after few days you find reason why...
(you turn off menu only from display area but... )

Yes, I am sure. It's common logic in good user interfaces that for such functions buttons are only lit to indicate that the specific function is active. If you switch of the menu via MENU ON/OFF then this is no longer the case.

Actually this might be handy, because if you press the 5 vertical display buttons
you would already know their function by looking at which option is lit.

The thing is that when the menu is switched off the soft keys should not work (I assume they don't, which is the correct behavior; I haven't tried it yet). Having them working with no menu displayed is nonsensical, especially since many menu areas have more than one layer.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:32:55 PM by Wuerstchenhund »

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 07:27:50 PM »
If only meaning is that led is on if menu is open visible on the screen and off if menu is not visible on the screen what information this led is for - nothing.  Situation  can know if just look display. So.. it can think, do it include some information. If only informatoin is show that menu is on or off on the TFT  this information can get if look TFT and this led can take off and save manufacture  costs some  tenth of jiao.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. The LED in the buttons is there to indicate which section of the menu is active. If it is on then it means the displayed menu belongs to AQUISITION or whatever has been selected, if it is off then it means no menu area is currently active. If you switch off the menu via MENU ON/OFF then the menu is no longer active, hence the LED in the button should occult.

This is standard logic in user interface design for years.

Quote
Menu can be displayed on the screen or it can be hide, also including this that meny can disappear from display automatically. You can shut off menu display automatically or manually but still this menu is active (but not on the screen area).  Also if display go screen save, still you can see what menu there is active and push button and do "blindly" setting in this active menu. This led is not there without reason. It give information, even if selected menu is not displayed.

Are you saying that the soft keys remain active even if you switch off the menu (I assume they are not, although I haven't tried it yet)? If so then this is a design flaw, contradicting well researched and established user interface design conventions.

I'm also surprised you really suggest that being able (let's assume the soft keys remain active when the menu is off) that pressing softkey buttons blindly is actually a good thing, as it's pretty stupi to manipulate a control if you're not sure what it really does (remember that many menu areas have multiple layers). Doing that is not a good idea, it simply is sloppy behavior which will only lead to errors.

Any device that allows what you're suggesting is simply badly designed.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:38:37 PM by Wuerstchenhund »

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 12:08:15 AM »
If only meaning is that led is on if menu is open visible on the screen and off if menu is not visible on the screen what information this led is for - nothing.  Situation  can know if just look display. So.. it can think, do it include some information. If only informatoin is show that menu is on or off on the TFT  this information can get if look TFT and this led can take off and save manufacture  costs some  tenth of jiao.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. The LED in the buttons is there to indicate which section of the menu is active. If it is on then it means the displayed menu belongs to AQUISITION or whatever has been selected, if it is off then it means no menu area is currently active. If you switch off the menu via MENU ON/OFF then the menu is no longer active, hence the LED in the button should occult.

This is standard logic in user interface design for years.

Quote
Menu can be displayed on the screen or it can be hide, also including this that meny can disappear from display automatically. You can shut off menu display automatically or manually but still this menu is active (but not on the screen area).  Also if display go screen save, still you can see what menu there is active and push button and do "blindly" setting in this active menu. This led is not there without reason. It give information, even if selected menu is not displayed.

Are you saying that the soft keys remain active even if you switch off the menu (I assume they are not, although I haven't tried it yet)? If so then this is a design flaw, contradicting well researched and established user interface design conventions.

I'm also surprised you really suggest that being able (let's assume the soft keys remain active when the menu is off) that pressing softkey buttons blindly is actually a good thing, as it's pretty stupi to manipulate a control if you're not sure what it really does (remember that many menu areas have multiple layers). Doing that is not a good idea, it simply is sloppy behavior which will only lead to errors.

Any device that allows what you're suggesting is simply badly designed.

Yes, I know it is good and bad. I do not know why they have selected this.

Perhaps thinkin that user may want shut off menu bar over the waveform area but still keep meny active in backround. This is what there is.

You can try, select cursors. Select example cursor A for adjust with adjust knob. You see there is now led on top of this knob. Then you want turn OFF displayed OR there is timer what turn menu bar off. But, in bacround it is still active and turn adjust know still you can move selected cursor. If hit any of menu bar buttons, menu bar coma agen to displau and it ius just this menu bar what is active n bacround. I personally feel it is nice feature more than bug.  Also same for display menu.
Activate it. Turn menubar timer to 2s. Then select example brightness or in other some menu some other adjustment. But fast menubar disappear, still your control is active. 

Bad or not but it is easy and perhaps more fast to use. And in some menubar it can fast remember if frequently use some adjustments in it... 2sec timer and this hidden active menu... it is handy. And if have bad memory, led tell what menu there is active... but not tell what sub page...   just keep this timer short and do something where need frequantly adjust / chane some 1 or 2 setting in active menu bar selected page. And "always" your screen is all for waveform.

Of course if this is car, train, aeroplane... it need really be different for safety reasons but here..in oscilloscope, nothing bad happend if you push any these menu bar buttons... only it may step to next available setting behind this button in order and if there is three possible setting... example in trgger it just jog up, down both edge every time you push it...  and menu bar pop up on screen also for tell what happend...(until it disappear how you have selected) ...  if it was wrong button just push next time it or more until setting is agen what need and then push right button. After people is familiar with it...  I think it more positive than negative feature. It may make oscilloscope using very fast. Ok, there is opposite thinking... in some kind of just very opposite is Owon. Every time you push this, and this and this and that and what ever you do all agen and agen... but you always know. But in long run... it start sometimes feel very "stupid" or frustrating.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:16:02 AM by rf-loop »
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2013, 12:40:53 AM »
Then about RUN/STOP  and Single shot.

Scope is run and acquiring. You push Run/stop... scope stop and it is now red. , you push it agen it run agen and it is green as long as you want agen stop.. run....stop...run...

No any hassle with Single button.

If you want use use Single, it can activate in trigger menu or just pushing this Single button.
After you press single... it IS in Single mode AND single button is green. And now also Run/stop is red... becouse it just ago turn to single mode and after last capture  it is now in single mode waiting what user want next.

It works just perfect.

Now in Single mode you can start new single shot or you can return back to normal running.

(now single is green, run is red)
Push run once and it run next single shot... single is still selected and there is green light in single button.

If you want continue normal use you turn off single mode... what need do... ok...push agen Single button and now light is off and single mode is off. Scope run now normally and run/stop is green until you push it to stop or until you go agen for single mode.

Push single...light on... push it agen...light off.

Do default.

Scope run now.
Push single. (green light and run/stop red and scope is now stopped and in single mode.)
Push run/stop (it change green as long as this single acquire takes (depends horizontal speed (1) and also if it need wait trig event!!) and then it stop and display it and run/stop is agen red and scope stopped.
Push Run/stop agen... it do next single shot. and then stay red as long as you want next.
If you want stop single mode, just push it and this green light also shut off.

(1) Note with very slow speeds. When you start sigle shot by run/stop button. There read waiting... until it meet trigger event after pretrigger buffer.

Note TFT left top corner status display...
If it is in single mode, and run is green (single run in progress) and if nothing happend... look TFT left top corner if there read example "Waiting" (waiting trigger) or there is green Trig'd (it have get trigger and now it is capturing signal... soon there read red clor  "Stop" and also Run/stop button is red.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 01:03:32 AM by rf-loop »
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline Deckert

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2013, 01:13:47 AM »
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. The LED in the buttons is there to indicate which section of the menu is active. If it is on then it means the displayed menu belongs to AQUISITION or whatever has been selected, if it is off then it means no menu area is currently active. If you switch off the menu via MENU ON/OFF then the menu is no longer active, hence the LED in the button should occult.

The LED staying lit is exactly right, because if you press the Menu button, the menu that was last used comes back up - and the last used menu is the function LED that was lit. In my view this logic is sound and preferred.

And yes, the soft keys stay active based on the active function that is lit by the LED. Makes for very handy short-cut to functions. I use it a lot of the time after getting to know the 'scope well.

--deckert

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2013, 03:12:23 AM »
It works just perfect.

Unfortunately it doesn't. If I press SINGLE then the acquisition stops, and SINGLE lights green and RUN/STOP is red. So far so good.

Now if I want to do a single shot acquisition, the logical thing would be to press SINGLE (that's how it works on most scopes out there). However, if I press SINGLE then the scope returns to normal (continuous) acquisition mode.

If I however press RUN/STOP instead, the scope does a single acquisition shot.

The standard (and expected) behaviour would be the other way around: a press of SINGLE initiates a single acquisition shot, and RUN/STOP would start and stop normal acquisition.

What's worse is that the behaviour seems to be erratic, as sometimes pressing SINGLE does indeed only start a single acquisition shot.

Quote
If you want continue normal use you turn off single mode... what need do... ok...push agen Single button and now light is off and single mode is off. Scope run now normally and run/stop is green until you push it to stop or until you go agen for single mode.

Push single...light on... push it agen...light off.

Again, this is contrary to what are established standard conventions for most scopes, which is that RUN/STOP starts and stops normal acquisition and a press of SINGLE fires a single acquisition shot.

I can somewhat see what the thinking was behind the current design (using SINGLE to 'pre-select' single shot mode, and using RUN/STOP to 'start' the single acquisition shot). But that is not very logical and defies most principles for good user interface design.

And idiocracies like these do their part why the reputation of cheap Chinese scopes remains bad amongst EEs.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:25:57 AM by Wuerstchenhund »

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2013, 03:24:07 AM »
You can try, select cursors. Select example cursor A for adjust with adjust knob. You see there is now led on top of this knob. Then you want turn OFF displayed OR there is timer what turn menu bar off. But, in bacround it is still active and turn adjust know still you can move selected cursor. If hit any of menu bar buttons, menu bar coma agen to displau and it ius just this menu bar what is active n bacround. I personally feel it is nice feature more than bug.  Also same for display menu.
Activate it. Turn menubar timer to 2s. Then select example brightness or in other some menu some other adjustment. But fast menubar disappear, still your control is active.

Well, I found out now that the soft keys indeed remain active even if the menu is switched off, which is poor UI design.

As to the cursors, the correct behaviour would be that when you switch off the menu, that either the cursor stops or (probably the better solution) that another indicator comes up showing that the rotary knob still controls cursor A.

Quote
Of course if this is car, train, aeroplane... it need really be different for safety reasons but here..in oscilloscope, nothing bad happend if you push any these menu bar buttons... only it may step to next available setting behind this button in order and if there is three possible setting... example in trgger it just jog up, down both edge every time you push it...  and menu bar pop up on screen also for tell what happend...(until it disappear how you have selected) ...  if it was wrong button just push next time it or more until setting is agen what need and then push right button. After people is familiar with it...  I think it more positive than negative feature. It may make oscilloscope using very fast. Ok, there is opposite thinking... in some kind of just very opposite is Owon. Every time you push this, and this and this and that and what ever you do all agen and agen... but you always know. But in long run... it start sometimes feel very "stupid" or frustrating.

The thing is that this is just bad UI design. It's no problem having a 'short cut' for certain functionalities but it's not ok having soft keys remaining active without the corresponding labelling via the menu. A solution would be to replace the menu items with symbols if the menu is switched off (i.e. a small bar containing symbols for  currently available soft key functions which could take very little space). Then the MENU ON/OFF key behaviour could be modified to toggle between full menu - symbol menu - off.

This is just an example. There are many ways to make the UI better. But ignoring common and well established UI conventions is not earning them any award.

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2013, 03:31:34 AM »
Wuerstchenhund, you are right.  Exactly!  I totally agree with all the above!

I have put together two examples of how the screen with all measurements active could look like.

In the examples below, the measurements are located on the bottom of the screen instead of hovering over the waveform. This reduces the vertical waveform area slightly but in my opinion is better than having the measurement data block covering a large part of the waveform.

I have also moved the frequency counter display outside the waveform area (there's enough space for it anyways), and the trigger level readout is now located close to the trigger indicator on the top. I also added a sampling rate indication, which is what I miss a lot on the screen.

The difference is in the location of the lower status bar.

As comparison, the third image shows the current design.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:45:35 AM by Wuerstchenhund »

Offline hgg

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2013, 04:27:41 AM »
Way better!

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2013, 04:42:19 AM »

The thing is that this is just bad UI design. It's no problem having a 'short cut' for certain functionalities but it's not ok having soft keys remaining active without the corresponding labelling via the menu. A solution would be to replace the menu items with symbols if the menu is switched off (i.e. a small bar containing symbols for  currently available soft key functions which could take very little space). Then the MENU ON/OFF key behaviour could be modified to toggle between full menu - symbol menu - off.

This is just an example. There are many ways to make the UI better. But ignoring common and well established UI conventions is not earning them any award.

Yes. But IF make changes, it really need carefully think how it is wise and think it from many different "angles".

many times I have told that manufacturer NEED arrange useability test group who look also things in some time points when design is going forward... and then in protrotype / final tst phase specially. AND these peoples need be totally from outside ot least totally different peoples that designers and programmers.  Also they need be well experienced with lot of real lab and working experience with equipments in real use.  But there need also be some entry level peoples becouse sometimes they find some things just becouse they do NOT have experience. ;) So it need mixed group. THis is not long time and expensive.. but it need do, if want be good and if want also grow to better.
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)

Offline rf-loop

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Re: SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2013, 04:55:33 AM »
Wuerstchenhund, you are right.  Exactly!  I totally agree with all the above!

I have put together two examples of how the screen with all measurements active could look like.

In the examples below, the measurements are located on the bottom of the screen instead of hovering over the waveform. This reduces the vertical waveform area slightly but in my opinion is better than having the measurement data block covering a large part of the waveform.

I have also moved the frequency counter display outside the waveform area (there's enough space for it anyways), and the trigger level readout is now located close to the trigger indicator on the top. I also added a sampling rate indication, which is what I miss a lot on the screen.

The difference is in the location of the lower status bar.

As comparison, the third image shows the current design.

Yes, this kind of things there is lot of what can easy do better.
Specially this mesurment window (all or time/voltage group)
I can not understand why it middle of screen.


I think and also believe that Siglent also listen customers.  I have seen some changes what are clearly collected from customers opinions. And I believe they want do more. But these need do carefully for avoid "hantek effect".
Sales only in Finland: Siglent and some selected Owon models what we have adopted. All with our lab deep Q.C. + surplus.
>50 year hobby&profession with test gears, radio, industrial electronic and electric. In use: Siglent, Rigol, Owon, HP/Agilent, Tektronix, Rohde&Schwarz, etc
(aka: aghp, aghp55)


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