SIGLENT SDS1102CML - First Impressions

[rf-loop]

2)

No need full version. Runtime package is enough.

http://siglent.freeforums.org/post145.html#p145

runtime 5.1.2:  (afaik,  Siglent  recommend version 5.1.2)

http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/2918/lang/en




4)

- one wink for do what ever waveform (manually, or can also do string  with some program.

You can store known waveform to USB. (do not use LongMem for exercise)

then open this file with some nice HEX editor, example HDD hex editor neo (free version). Very fast you find where is waveform samples data.  In sample data string, do not use 0x00 (#00). If there is zero, there is not any kind of trace (first in bottom line is 0x01)

Note that sampling speed base in data is of course what is used when you first store .DAV

If you want do zero line.DAV for working first do .DAV

Set example 10us/div
just for example 500mV/div
center vertical
you see horizontal line.


Save .DAV to USB

Read usb with hex editor.

edit data in address area from  #03ff  to #2bf2 #2bf1  to value  #80
Edit address #2bf3 #2bf2 value to example #c0 #cb (+3div) and also example next 10 memory positions same. And then after this point to #53d0 agen all #80
(in this case time between memory positions is 10ns (100MSa/s)

Now you have straight line, then center of screen there is 100ns long peak.

do not make other changes in file lenght etc and other memory position equal as before.

Load it back to scope.  You see one around 100ns spike center of screen. Zoom just turning horizontal speed to it. Change display to dots. Zoom until you see every dot.

Remember to do work DAV first with this settings you want use later after you download file to scope.
Samplerate is what it was in original DAV (yes these can also edit but better that not change before know what do)

So, you can "draw" what ever signal shape and then display these with scope.

After this exercise you can do what ever signal.

[ChildOfVision]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH rf-loop !

[rf-loop]

Here is what can play using example some hex editor.  There is clear zero line and middle is short -3V and then +3V and back to zero line.

First, load attached setup to scope, and just after then load attached waveform to scope.
 
Signal area (CH1) there is #3E8 to #A3E7 (do not change out of this area things)
(note: signal area is different if scope use 40k memory (in single channel and 1GSa/s speed)

All other exept middle pulse are set for vertical value #80
One vertical div is 25  so 3 div is 75  ( #4B)  so +3V pulse top is #CB becouse voltage setting was 1V/div. 
Btw, vertical baseline position is byte in address #30  where data is now #80

(if play with these, save and load with same scope settings becouse dav file included settings do not set all exactly right)

With this dav file it is easy to make what ever signals to scope screen and example inspect how sinx/x work (or other fun things). (yes Sinx works right even if first feel there is something wrong - not)


There is 10us/div, short memmory, sinx/x off (x) etc.

Signal is zero exept 2 samples -3V and 2 samples +3V just around center of screen.
With this speed sampling speed is 100MSa/s

After loaded to scope, zoom in/out just turn horizontal speed more fast.
(note that in stop mode of course there is not trigger time position fine adjust process working)

If edit these files with example HexEdit do not change other area than signal and keep care file lenght is equal also of course.


One disclaimer. I have not tested if these works with earlier FW version!
(Tested and made with FW 5.01.02.22 only)

Setup file filetype .TXT change to .SET
Dav file type .TXT change to .DAV

[ChildOfVision]

Thanks, again,

I'm right now playing (and studying manual ) with my scope, I don't know what scope you have (I assume it is 1702 or 1102CML); my HW version is: 11-62-3.3 and software ver: 5.01.02.13. I found that there is no date/time adjusment under Utility menu - should this scope have this, not essential, but nice feature? I saw, on LeCroy's copy of SDS1072CML there IS that possibility - there is time and date down-right at screen. Furthermore, I saw picture of Siglent SDS1072CML also with date and time!? Maybe sellers put that image from 2000 series? But, anyway, there is no reason that this is missing!

OK, for now I found that I can't adjust 1GSa/s for single channel (ch.A!) (just up to 500MSa) whatever I do! Only when I turn channel B (with nothing attached on it) - here it is! Then I turn off ch.B and continue with ch.A, this time with maximal speed! One of bugs...

I only have my scope 1 day, I'm trying to be more familiar with it, so I will try to do what you said, sounds interesting, thanks!!!

See you later!
Child

EDIT: I realise now you have FW 5.01.02.22 ? Is this newer version than mine? Or you just have different scope, but if it is Siglent there is no newer version than mine on their website, except if you have 2000 series or so?

Huh, there is no Siglent's 2000 series, I mixed this with Rigol, sorry. I meant Siglent 1xx4 (4-ch.) version, but I see there is picture of SDS1102CML WITH time/date right on Siglent page!

[rf-loop]

Thanks, again,

I'm right now playing (and studying manual ) with my scope, I don't know what scope you have (I assume it is 1702 or 1102CML); my HW version is: 11-62-3.3 and software ver: 5.01.02.13. I found that there is no date/time adjusment under Utility menu - should this scope have this, not essential, but nice feature? I saw, on LeCroy's copy of SDS1072CML there IS that possibility - there is time and date down-right at screen. Furthermore, I saw picture of Siglent SDS1072CML also with date and time!? Maybe sellers put that image from 2000 series? But, anyway, there is no reason that this is missing!

OK, for now I found that I can't adjust 1GSa/s for single channel (ch.A!) (just up to 500MSa) whatever I do! Only when I turn channel B (with nothing attached on it) - here it is! Then I turn off ch.B and continue with ch.A, this time with maximal speed! One of bugs...

I only have my scope 1 day, I'm trying to be more familiar with it, so I will try to do what you said, sounds interesting, thanks!!!

See you later!
Child

EDIT: I realise now you have FW 5.01.02.22 ? Is this newer version than mine? Or you just have different scope, but if it is Siglent there is no newer version than mine on their website, except if you have 2000 series or so?

Huh, there is no Siglent's 2000 series, I mixed this with Rigol, sorry. I meant Siglent 1xx4 (4-ch.) version, but I see there is picture of SDS1102CML WITH time/date right on Siglent page!

Later there is coming Siglent SDS2000 (soon)  and later more.

Afaik, SDS1000CFL models (2 and 4 channel) have real time clock. SDS1000DL/CNL/CML do not have real time clock circuit (it is not FW it is hardware).

This time when I play with this DAV file I use:
SDS1102CML
FW:5.01.02.22 (not just yet available from Siglent download center, I hope they update download center asap so that peoples can update new FW)

If you change horizontal speed to fastest speeds and LongMemory is selected.  It do not shut off LongMemory and it use then max 500MSa/s. It is not bug. (but yes there is still some other small bugs in some samplerate related things)


If there is only one channel selected for use (CH1 or CH2) and if horizontal speed is 50ns/div or faster and if memory selection is Normal then it use 1GSa/s. And in this case it also use 40k memory (becouse these two channels memory is combined together, not one after one but interleaved becouse here also 2pcs  500MSa/s ADC blocs. (both 500MSa/s ADC's are also made by interleaving several 100MSa/s ADC's)

In long memory mode it can not use 1GSa/s at all. This is normal, it is also in other similar principle working scopes, as example Hantek 5000B and Rigol DS1000E etc.  All these have half speed LongMemory.  1M or 2M.
Siglent have 2M (in two channel mode 1+1M)

[ChildOfVision]

You have to be in 'normal' memory mode and not 'long' memory mode to get the full 1GSamples/s. Which is a shame really.

In long memory mode it can not use 1GSa/s at all.

You both are right! I knew this. But I'm pretty sure scope was in short mem. mode! Look what I did: 1) Turn on the scope, check all stuff (I believe I've checked memory too) - isn't memory set to short by default btw?
2) I connected probe (not probe that comes with oscilloscope - it is really bad quality, I can't do probe compensation at all, but ok) to the BNC-A only.
3) I either press "Auto" button or turn chanel A manually - only "A" (or "I" if you want) button is illuminated!
4) When I rotate "S" dial, sample rate increases, but only up to 500MSa/a!

Then I turn off scope, and repeat all this few times - all the same!

After that, I "accidentally", by feel, how it usually goes in life , decided to try ch.B ONLY (manually turned off ch.A), repetated steps 1-4 and I got 1GSa/s! Than, I can (without restart) change ch.B to ch.A and 1GSa is still there!

I must note: I turned scope on/off only few times after purchase, so maybe it was long memory somehow stayed switched on (remains from factory testing)?

I forgot to mention: I also have/had problems with switching from Real-time to Equ-time mode - it was impossible to do that - I got message: "Function isn't useable!" - I didn't use any "special" things, just normal, fundamental measurement of some sine waves! But, it seems to me, after, say, 10 switching-on's that both problems disappeared - I have to check this again!

Afaik, SDS1000CFL models (2 and 4 channel) have real time clock. SDS1000DL/CNL/CML do not have real time clock circuit (it is not FW it is hardware).

Well, I'm sure you know about this better than me ! But, I think I saw somewhere in Siglent's leaflet or datasheet something like "SDS1072/1102CML have precise 6-digit frequency measurements based on "real-time clock" (or something like that), not by counting pixels from screen" - but I'm really not sure about that! Just look at this picture (it has zoom) - SDS1102CML with clock - if there is no way (simply because there is no RTC onboard) that it has clock - than they just photoshoped image from CFL series, as you said! "False advertising" -hehe .
http://www.siglent.com/en/product/detail.aspx?id=100000005058775&nodecode=119008001
That "clock-issue" isn't really a big thing, but I want to know do I have correct FW (or FW/HW combination).

FW:5.01.02.22 (not just yet available from Siglent download center, I hope they update download center asap so that peoples can update new FW)

Where you find this version (no need to answer!!!)? Industrial espionage ? Just kidding! What did you get with this new FW?

Do you guys know is it possible to "drag" automated-measurements "block" across the screen, I can't find that in Manual? It is especially irritatingly during FFT measurements: that "info-block" anchors itself just far left covering the FFT spectrum in really important part!?

Cheers!
Child

[rf-loop]

Where there read Ch A. There read on the buttons and on the front panel CH1 and CH2 exactly and also in menu system.

Real time clock (perhaps chinglish)
This is internal reference clock (oscillator) what is used for two frequency counters. They are different as this what is measured from captured signal using Measure menu selections.

This counter counts trigger events and it is internal reference and works like normal frequency counters and result(s) is displayed on the screen. (separate counter for both channels (of course if both channels run with separate trig!)
In measurement menu, freq measurement is totally different method.

Real time clock is clock what show time and date. This function is in CFL models.

If you have get broken probe (manufacturing error), there is 1 year warranty.

Btw, of course you use 10x setting for compensation adjustment. (1x do not have adjustment at all)

Where I get scope(s) with FW 5.01.02.22  = from factory as normal for distributors..

Can you repeat this what you say about 500MSa/s limit with really known settings?
If you can repeat it so that you sure know, please tell exactly how I can setup and use scope so that I can find this situation. I have now tried with 5.01.02.13 and 5.01.02.22 many many times and I have not finded this.   

[ChildOfVision]

Where there read Ch A. There read on the buttons and on the front panel CH1 and CH2 exactly and also in menu system.

I will double-check this!

Real time clock (perhaps chinglish) /YES, it IS chinglish /
This is internal reference clock (oscillator) what is used for two frequency counters. They are different as this what is measured from captured signal using Measure menu selections.

Understood!
Am I thinking right: f-measurements on the main screen is more accurate than readings from far-right menu?

Real time clock is clock what show time and date. /I knew that/ This function is in CFL models. /Didn't know that /[/color]

Why they didn't put RTC chip on ALL models, it is few cents costs...

First of two probes I can't compensate, second is OK, but pretty flimsy design, It is almost twice thinner (probe, not cable) than my Testek LF-312 (official replacement for older Hameg's HM probe, afaik, 1:1/1:10, 150MHz)! I don't know is it worthwile to ask replacement... Interestingly: they have a whole spectra of probes; 60MHz AND 70MHz - if there is some difference - kill me! Maybe 60MHz and 200MHz have some difference... (I got 2x 70MHz).

Btw, of course you use 10x setting for compensation adjustment. (1x do not have adjustment at all)

Note: I worked hard with analog oscilloscopes at my university (physics) for many years, I own Hameg HM-303, so I'm almost TOTAL beginner in digital "oscilloscoping", thus I know (basics, at least) about compensation (only applicable and necessary for "non 1:1" probes)...

Can you repeat this what you say about 500MSa/s limit with really known settings?

YES, I will! Just, please, be patient, I'm struggling now with my PC (perhaps due to high temps here (over 40°C) )!

Thanks again!
Child!

[rf-loop]

Look at this two signals. The difference is longmem on and longmem off.
800khz / 20khz = 40, but the samplingrate was 500KS/s and 25MS/s
25 / .5 = 50
There is a bug in the FFT calc.

Agreed - I noted the same discrepancy in my review of the Siglent/Atten 'scope using the 3.x firmware. So this is an issue they did not fix in the 5.x firmware? When I tested this on the Rigol DS1102E, I noted that the Rigol simply switches back to short-mem "Normal" mode when you enter FFT mode.

--deckert

I hope Siglent also do this: If FFT then LongMem ---> Normal
It is simple and easy and does not require much.

Other even better solution is if user have selected LongMemory. "Function is not useable in LongMemory mode".

There is no any reason to run FFT in LongMem mode. Nothing.
FFT use just 1024 sample points and thats all.

 

[illyesgeza]

because the FFT calculation is too time consuming for more than 1024 points,
it would be better to set a window of 1024 points on the wave in LONGMEM mode
and compute the FFT on this window.
in this way the user can obtain a much better rezolution in frequency domain.
the only thing what Siglent has to do is to compute FFT on 1024 points from an
user defined startingpoint on time domain. so no need to inhibit LONGMEM.
I bet on what you want that Siglent newer will do so

[margrove]

Although much of this thread is Greek to me it seems that the SIGLENT SDS1102CML is a good bet for a first time DSO buyer. I'm very glad to see that SIGLENT has a presence on this forum which augers well for bug squashing.
Or can I do better for the price?

[sameerdhiman]

Hi Siglent Representative,

A suggestion from my side: Please provide Cross-Cursor under FFT measurement to get V & Fq values at the same time.

Regards,
Sameer Dhiman
(DSO-5070A Metravi India == Siglent SDS1072CML)

[bjoernx]

Got my 1072CML today!

So far did not get the hang of this FFT thing.
Just looked up the manual... and guess what: there on page 22 it explicitely states, that their FFT function is designed as a LOL-detector! So what... 


"Analyze the Humorous wave in the Power cable."
"Test the Humorous content and distortion in the system"
L*MAO! 

[sameerdhiman]

 

Actually, they are right to some extent because the noise floor is too high and you won't see harmonic contents in the noise grass other than high Hum signals.

[rf-loop]

Actually, they are right to some extent because the noise floor is too high and you won't see harmonic contents in the noise grass other than high Hum signals.

And you have data for this?


Opinions are opinions and joking is joking but I respect data.
Also this same test can repeat where ever lab.

Siglent use 1024 point FFT calculation as also so many others in same class.
But where is this high noise floor? There is just natural noise floor. It have 8 bit ADC also.
There is not any kind of averaging in use, no high res mode etc.

Signal, in this case HP8657B and coaxial to scope input where is T connected 50ohm terminator (becouse it is enough accurate for this kind of use)

Siglent model used here: SDS1102CML
Input 50mV/div
FFT zoom 10x, Filter Blackman, vertical 10dB div
Infinite persistence on.

Signal 21MHz

in image there is 10dB steps from -54dBm to -4dBm  (and end of test signal is left to -24dBm level)If I run only -54dBm signal,  noise floor is more down and then example -64dBm is well detectable over noise floor. This visible noise floor is mainly from -4dBm input signal what rise some amount noise floor and infinite persistence keep it visible.

Incoming signal level steps are:
 
447uVrms (-54dBm)
1.41mVrms (-44dBm)
4.47mVrms (-34dBm)
14.1mVrms (-24dBm)
44.7mVrms (-14dBm)
141mVrms (-4dBm)


Where is now "high noise floor" if stay in this kind of oscilloscopes class.

Note that visible noise floor is  max peak noise floor, not average noise floor.
Visually with eyes it can easy look that minimum detectable signal is around 55 - 60dB under maximum signal level.
Why I use this splitted display. Becouse infinite persistence looks some amount terrible if there is full screen where input signal in time domain and FFT overlay.

[bjoernx]

Actually, they are right to some extent because the noise floor is too high and you won't see harmonic contents in the noise grass other than high Hum signals.

And you have data for this?


Opinions are opinions and joking is joking but I respect data.

sameerdhiman was probably referring to the noisefloor in LOL terms: ratio of bad jokes with broken punch-lines lying around on the floor, prematurely deceased and misunderstood for life.  O0

Also this same test can repeat where ever lab.

Nice testcase, thank you! As said, I'll have to get my head around this to find out, how it can be useful to me.

I will test this scope some more over the weekend and finally decide, wether to return it or not. Think I've found quite a few bugs and glitches so far, will see if I can repeat and screenshot them and will report back here if time permits.

[sameerdhiman]

I apologies, It was purely a joke. Please don't take it otherwise.

I apologies again.

No doubts, Siglent device is good. I do not regret after purchase. After all this is my first DSO.

BTW, in my scope waveform does not align to center (0,0 coordinates) it always remain shifted few point to left side even after Self-
Calibration. Is it normal?

Regards,
Sameer

[zoltan]

Hi there,

Today I become a proud owner of one brand new Siglent SDS1102CML.

This one is:
SW 5.01.02.22
HW 11-62-3.5

The very first annoying thing i've found is that the damn thing won't remember the language setup. It will remember the channel choice etc. but not the language.
Maybe if I set it to chinese 

[Zbig]

Hi there,

Today I become a proud owner of one brand new Siglent SDS1102CML.

This one is:
SW 5.01.02.22
HW 11-62-3.5

The very first annoying thing i've found is that the damn thing won't remember the language setup. It will remember the channel choice etc. but not the language.
Maybe if I set it to chinese 

Hmm, my SDS1072CML SW5.01.02.13/HW11-62-3.3 does remember the language preference correctly. A 5.01.02.22 bug, perhaps?

[johansen]

My SDS1102CNL

5.01.02.13
hardware version
11-62-3.3

i've read through several other threads..
you can buy the memory chip for 23$ off mouser solder it in, and then upgrade it to CML
and from what i read the only difference between the CML and CNL is the configuration file, not the software...

[pickle9000]

Do you have the part number for the memory?

[johansen]

Do you have the part number for the memory?

read this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/atten-oscilloscope-firmware/

you'll need solder paste and hot air. unless you want to risk it with a very fine point soldering iron and lots of flux

[pickle9000]

Digi key has it as well (part number IS61LPS51236A-200TQLI).

I have a T-862 for this sort of stuff, it's not the best but does a fair job. Hot air not required.

[xtv]

Although much of this thread is Greek to me it seems that the SIGLENT SDS1102CML is a good bet for a first time DSO buyer. I'm very glad to see that SIGLENT has a presence on this forum which augers well for bug squashing.
Or can I do better for the price?

I would like to know that too..
This will be my first scope, and besides many low freqs applications, I plan to play with RF oscillators, so I belive a better bandwidth is a must have for me (in this modest price range).
I'm still between the SDS1152CML Siglent (which is the 150MHz version of this scope), the Owon 7102 (which some people here says can go up to 170MHz - is it true?) or the Hantek DSO5102, which is 100MHz hackable to 200MHz.. (there's also a native 200MHz for a few bucks more). I don't even discard the Rigol 1102, but I hope there are more modern 'n better options..

As this Siglent model was sort of unknown by most people few months ago, what do you guys think?
If you want to give your opinion about these other scopes in PM for not messing with this section, please, PLEASE do so! You'll probably select a better scope for me than I will

[rf-loop]

Here you find some tests. Some of these are some amount old but afaik nothing changed any markable amount.

http://siglent.freeforums.org/sds1072cml-tests-new-fw5-x-hw-11-x-t42.html

http://owon.freeforums.org/some-tests-with-new-sds7102v-version-2-6-and-2-8-2-t10.html

There is one test image with FFT what also show frequency BW. (this image where signal sweep from 1MHz up to 500MHz)
http://owon.freeforums.org/some-tests-with-fft-t8.html

These test are also made so that these can repeat in what ever lab. Test results are not opinions.
These Siglents and Owons  (and all other scopes) have individual pros and cons. What is suitable depends user needs and other things.  It is good to remember that also check samplerate tables and think what are user needs, what are signals specifications what need test.