EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: tkonekt on October 13, 2017, 08:52:00 am
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Hello everyone,
I just received my Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope, and I have a small query that appears immediately after trying to set my probe compensation.
I wonder if I have to make a material return ! >:(
As soon as it was first used, I set the compensation of the probes with the internal square wave generator, everything goes well, this setting is very very sensitive on probes... (Of course, probes and software are set to x10 mode except software for CH2 probe...).
By changing the vertical resolution step by the steps proposed by the system (up voltage input via knob), I constat that I have an over-compensation that appears when internal scale relays come into action.
Thinking that there may be a software problem, I updated the system (version 5.1.3.8R2 to 5.1.3.13) and then made the fundamental automatic calibration. The problem still there.
Do you have the same type of problem? (regardless of the brand of your oscilloscope)
I find it a bit aberrant to must make a probe compensation when I change vertical level of adjustment, we speak nevertheless here measuring instrument already calibrated, isn't it ?
What do you think ? Is this issue part of the tolerances of input ? :bullshit:
Thank you for your advice ;)
Sorry for my English, I hope you'll understand my jabber
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Maybe variable capacitance showed in analog input stage on EEVblog #985 - Siglent SDS1202X-E Oscilloscope Teardown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA&feature=youtu.be&t=17m20s) are used to compensate this different relays action modes, what do you think about that ?
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You will get some little drift as the unit warms up, this is not uncommon with any scope.
The trimming sensitivity is related to the range of trimming available for the probe, probes with a narrow adjustment range will be less sensitive.
I use a slower timebase and increased amplitude like in your 6th image to compensate probes and I have found one faulty probe in a new X-E before dispatch to a customer. Your's look OK.
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Judging from the pictures the oscilloscopes internal compensation isn't right so you have to return it for service/repair. A square wave should look like a square wave at every V/div setting.
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A friend test this strange report with a Rigol DS1054Z, no issue seems occur... Relays scale are not ont same level.
Screenshot source (https://imgur.com/a/qqpEx)
1: 500mV/Div
2: 2V/Div
3: 5V/Div
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The screendumps of your friend's scope look the way they should look.
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I think it looks normal for fuzzy vision. There's only about 25 voltage levels per vertical division, so a drift of 1 level looks worse than it is.
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I think it looks normal for fuzzy vision. There's only about 25 voltage levels per vertical division, so a drift of 1 level looks worse than it is.
In that case you'd see the effect stronger in pictures 1&2 than in picture 3 because the sensitivity in pictures 1&2 is higher. However in pictures 1&2 it isn't there but in picture 3 it is clearly visible.
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I just do another test in "Fine ajustement" mode of V/Div in two way :
1st (Pict 1&2) -> I go down (with vertical scale knob), until I hear a 'clic' of relay', I set the compensation then I go just above (0,02V/Div)
2nd (Pict 3&4) -> The opposite, I go just above the 'clic' relay and do readjustment of compensation then go below .
Result ... :-BROKE :wtf:
We can see another issue, reading voltage is wrong on overcompensed curve, but it's normal, mesurement works !... |O
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"I just do another test in "Fine ajustement" mode of V/Div in two way :"
Good test, in that case I agree the frequency response of the different Y sensitivities are off a bit.
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Time to return it and buy a real scope
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I just do another test in "Fine ajustement" mode of V/Div in two way :
1st (Pict 1&2) -> I go down (with vertical scale knob), until I hear a 'clic' of relay', I set the compensation then I go just above (0,02V/Div)
2nd (Pict 3&4) -> The opposite, I go just above the 'clic' relay and do readjustment of compensation then go below .
Result ... :-BROKE :wtf:
We can see another issue, reading voltage is wrong on overcompensed curve, but it's normal, mesurement works !... |O
Thanks for clear examples of this issue. I'll report it to the team at the factory right this minute.
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mesurement works
Picture 1 & 3 should measure the same, 1.2V or 1.22V, but they are different.
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I forgot to specify, but I have the issue problem with both channels, even by interchanging the probes ... :-- :--
Someone would have this oscilloscope to do the same test to be sure if I'm an isolated case ?
I proceed to the material return for refund, however I do not know where to turn now, I think I'm going to move to another manufacturer ... :-\
...I'll report it to the team at the factory right this minute.
Thanks tautech to report this issue at the factory, because I'm not good enough in english to explain that in one shot ...
:-+
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I forgot to specify, but I have the issue problem with both channels, even by interchanging the probes ... :-- :--
Someone would have this oscilloscope to do the same test to be sure if I'm an isolated case ?
I proceed to the material return for refund, however I do not know where to turn now, I think I'm going to move to another manufacturer ... :-\
...I'll report it to the team at the factory right this minute.
Thanks tautech to report this issue at the factory, because I'm not good enough in english to explain that in one shot ...
:-+
One last thing I'd ask you to check, is firmware version 5.1.3.13 seen on the System page ?
(just to confirm it's properly installed)
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however I do not know where to turn now, I think I'm going to move to another manufacturer ... :-\
Tell us what you want to use your scope for. What kind of circuits do you repair and/or build?
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My scope has the same issue, firmware version 5.1.3.13. And as in your case it's on both channels with either probe. So you're not an isolated case.
Wonder if this is a hw or sw issue..?
Anyone else?
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My scope has the same issue, firmware version 5.1.3.13. And as in your case it's on both channels with either probe. So you're not an isolated case.
Wonder if this is a hw or sw issue..?
Anyone else?
Welcome to the forum.
I'm quite sure it's SW as it's only visible at certain points when using the Fine V/div adjustment.
Unlike old analog Fine V/div implementation where it's done with a divider, in this case where it's both on the boundary of a relay shift and the amplitude is changed within IC's, a firmware fix is the likely remedy.
We'll know soon when I get some feedback from the factory.
I've emailed a # of contacts at Siglent to ensure they are fully aware of it and implement a prompt fix.
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I'm quite sure it's SW as it's only visible at certain points when using the Fine V/div adjustment.
Unlike old analog Fine V/div implementation where it's done with a divider, in this case where it's both on the boundary of a relay shift and the amplitude is changed within IC's, a firmware fix is the likely remedy.
I strongly doubt it can be fixed by firmware. Simplified: in an oscilloscope front-end you need multiple capacitive/resistive dividers to get different attenuations and each needs to be adjusted to get a flat frequency response. If you get that wrong (for example due to too high component variations) you get the effects visible in the screendumps. The problem occuring when the relay is switching from one range to another is a tell-tale sign the problem is in the hardware. I have quite a bit of hands-on experience with these kind of circuits.
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My first tests was with V 5.1.3.8R2 Firmware, then with lastest V5.1.3.13 available at the moment.
You may find that I have done the firmware upgrade quickly, look at the "Startups times" value between the two pictures :-DD
I think the problem is more on the input stage than the firmware itself.
I took THE good decision of the day : return to retailer and I asked it a refund (to take my time to choose a new trademark device).
I can not conceive to keep a device for which I know there is a defect that I could see only two minutes after starting it.
I am relatively disappointed by this Siglent model which looked promising on datasheet...
The subject is not closed, I would like to see if other users have encountered the same issue, and especially if certain one finally opened the beast to correct it, for example add extra-cap to the existing cap compensation, or other things, because I'm sure it's hardware issue near of the relay (scale selector) on input, and I would have done it if the oscilloscope had at least one year.. ;D
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I strongly doubt it can be fixed by firmware. Simplified: in an oscilloscope front-end you need multiple capacitive/resistive dividers to get different attenuations and each needs to be adjusted to get a flat frequency response. If you get that wrong (for example due to too high component variations) you get the effects visible in the screendumps. The problem occuring when the relay is switching from one range to another is a tell-tale sign the problem is in the hardware. I have quite a bit of hands-on experience with these kind of circuits.
Is it not possible to specify the components in question specified with sufficient precision and accuracy to make such adjustments unnecessary? If not, then what is responsible for causing adjustment to be necessary in the first place?
If such adjustments have to be made on a per-scope basis then how are they typically made in applications such as this? With variable resistors/capacitors? By selecting custom values at assembly time?
In any case, if the values are adjusted on a per-scope basis then that suggests a quality control problem at Siglent.
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The sensitivity and requirement for adjustments depend entirely on the design. It could be an error in the bill of material so they mounted a +/-20% X5R capacitor instead of a 1% NPO/COG capacitor but that is pure speculation. You can only answer these questions after reverse engineering the input stage of the SDS1202X-E.
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There are two trim caps on each input stage as seen in Dave's teardown: EEVblog #985 - Siglent SDS1202X-E Oscilloscope Teardown (http://EEVblog #985 - Siglent SDS1202X-E Oscilloscope Teardown) so you'd think this would be fixed during calibration (by Siglent or Saelig?).
The reason I wondered if sw could be the culprit is that both channels are out by the same amount despite being individually tune-able (via the trim caps). I would have expected a sloppy calibration to have affected the inputs at least somewhat differently. And my results are also the same as tkonekt's.
Would be great to hear from other owners.
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There is a test you can do: use a direct connection between the calibrator output and the input (or use a function generator with a square wave output). If the effect is gone then the problem is likely that the input capacitance of the scope isn't constant and throwing off the adjustment for the 1:10 probe. If the effect persists then it is likely a factory calibration error or out of spec component.
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There is a test you can do: use a direct connection between the calibrator output and the input (or use a function generator with a square wave output). If the effect is gone then the problem is likely that the input capacitance of the scope isn't constant and throwing off the adjustment for the 1:10 probe. If the effect persists then it is likely a factory calibration error or out of spec component.
Signal from generator.
SDS1203X-E analog front end have 3 different vertical bands.
Test signals to scope input. Gen out - Suhner RG223/U 1m - Tek 011-0049 - SDS1kX-E input.
Attached images:
Vertical band 1. 0.4V Sqr Scope vertical 100mV/div, probe multiplier 1x
Vertical band 2. 0,8V Sqr Scope vertical 200mV/div, probe multiplier 1x
Vertical band 3 8.0V Sqr, Scope vertical 200mV/div, probe multiplier 1x
Of course square is not flat because frequency response from 0Hz to 200MHz is not flat. I do not know any single scope where this frequency response is flat, not even if scope price is same as house.
In this test small change in input capasitive reactance between V bands do not affect so much it can detect. Most part of difference between ideal square wave come from frequency response flatness.
Situation with these probes when probe is set for 10:1 (10x) is bit different.
There can see some LF compensation error.
In this case my opinion is that it is possible that square wave is disturbed due to small change in oscilloscope 1Mohm input (capasitive) reactance change. V bands 2 and 3 have not so much difference between each others but V band 1 change capasitance more. Change is perhaps even some 1pF's and it affect to this probe Low Freq compensation. {Siglent development team need take this into consideration}
Every V band (I, II and III) have separate pathway what are selected by relays. There is not adjustment for null these capasitive input reactance differences between vertical bands.
I do not want speculate if different probes are less sensitive for this small reactance change.
If want, it can also say that this error do not violate given specifications for frequency response error limits or level error limits, not even close. But cosmetically...., well - it can be better also my nose can be more beautiful. Ideal pure square waves can find only in kids school books.
All what human see in oscilloscope display is sum of errors added to unknown truth. After get real long time wide range experience people can live with errors mixed with unknown and still he can do his jobs.
I have not any even minor difficulties to do my works with Tektronix 2465, HP old digita or some more new digitals and also including this SDS1202X-E. I have not any single equipment what do not tell me wrong things. All frequencies are off, all voltagfes and currents are off, my clock os off. My straight line is not straigth, my micrometer is wrong, my temperatures are wrong. I not know anything what is right. I have brains for live with all these errors and they do not stop or other way fail my work. If my brain or heart go to too big errors, then my works fails.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=361357;image)
Vertical Band I
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=361359;image)
Vertical Band II
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=361361;image)
Vertical Band III
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There is a test you can do: use a direct connection between the calibrator output and the input (or use a function generator with a square wave output). If the effect is gone then the problem is likely that the input capacitance of the scope isn't constant and throwing off the adjustment for the 1:10 probe. If the effect persists then it is likely a factory calibration error or out of spec component.
In this case my opinion is that it is possible that square wave is disturbed due to small change in oscilloscope 1Mohm input (capasitive) reactance change. V bands 2 and 3 have not so much difference between each others but V band 1 change capasitance more. Change is perhaps even some 1pF's and it affect to this probe Low Freq compensation. {Siglent development team need take this into consideration}
Every V band (I, II and III) have separate pathway what are selected by relays. There is not adjustment for null these capasitive input reactance differences between vertical bands.
I do not want speculate if different probes are less sensitive for this small reactance change.
If want, it can also say that this error do not violate given specifications for frequency response error limits or level error limits, not even close.
It is way out of specification. At low frequencies (say up to 1MHz) an oscilloscope should be as accurate as it's DC specifications but this error is way over! Besides that I have never seen this kind of behaviour on any oscilloscope I have used.
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At low frequencies (say up to 1MHz) an oscilloscope should be as accurate as it's DC specifications...
This is your opinion. This is not truth - it is trumpth.
Specifications tell frequency flatness is + 1dB from DC to 20MHz.
For draw acceptable 1kHz square what frequencies of sinewaves you need so that sum is what you see is "square wave" on this case.
Think that every these single sinewaves may have level error something between + or - 1dB. (including that also this DC may have 3% error. Now draw specifications acceptable error window example for this top part of this square wave. Is it inside this window.
You or who ever can define what is nice to have or how it should looks like what you like is ok but if it violate only this opinion it do not mean it violate given specifications.
And I do not mean that it should not be better. It should, of course.
When designing front end layout and topology it need look with signal eyes from dc to rf. It must not look with human eyes as we look if things on table are in good order. It need care more about how signal see it.
Besides that I have never seen this kind of behaviour on any oscilloscope I have used.
I have seen same situation also example in Owon XDS3000. And in my lifetime experience I have seen this situation many times.
Here Owon. Error is not so big but also there can see separate vertical bands have different input reactanse. (mostly capacitive) But owon input nominal capacitance is much lower and also changes are lower between bands.
Attacments just for example. (I do not have enough high voltage level gen for drive system with probe set 10x ) )
In images used 200MHz probes connected to Gen output where is also 50ohm extra feed through directly attached to gen output before probe adapter. 20M BW is on for reduce Owon noise and it do not affect this shape. (gen out imp is 50ohm and after then 50ohm feed thru and probe connected to this with probe bnc adapter)
Between images probe is untouched. You can see which image probe is compensated and then changed level and scope Vertical level band (Level band relay switch just between these levels) It can see with other level band probe is not anymore perfectly LF compensated.
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I have seen same situation also example in Owon XDS3000. And in my lifetime experience I have seen this situation many times.
Can you name other scopes where you experienced the same "feature"?
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I have seen same situation also example in Owon XDS3000. And in my lifetime experience I have seen this situation many times.
Can you name other scopes where you experienced the same "feature"?
I agree. I see the 'Siglent bug sugar coating team' is hard at work to justify why a faulty product isn't faulty. Before we know it they try to sell the emperor some new clothes as well!
If a scope from a brand like Keysight, Tektronix, Yokogawa, Iwatsu, R&S or Lecroy shows this behaviour their customers will come over with pitchforks, boiling tar and feathers.
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Think this needs more scientific approach. Problem is not something most people would notice unless specifically looking for it. So would suggest to actually measure it on various super-duper-quality scopes and then talk. For measure zoom in vertically so signal would have same general size (unlike with Rigol example provided). Preferred near-full screen. Possibly apply some kind of averaging since 8-bit ones may get quite fuzzy. Measure with cursors.
In fact good video material for Dave, much like catastrophic problems with microphonics in super-duper R&S.
Overall mr rf-loop is right, everything turns to s**t if look too close. Here science comes in. Is s**t big, small, how does it smell and is it natural form for given species or perhaps somehow twisted.
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Some CML+ results. On the CML+ the relay click occurs between 200mV <click> 206mV at the scope.
With the probes on X1 there's very little visible change to the square-ness of the trace as the relay clicks between 200mV <-> 206mV.
With the probes on X10, using the tkonekt test where the probes are re-compensated each side of the relay click, my results are nearly as bad as the OP's, although I don't think it's a massive problem.
So it's a X10 compensation thing ?
EDIT.
After a rough measurement, it seems to be the scope's input capacitance changing when the relay clicks, ~17pF to ~20pF.
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PicoScope 2408B
Supplied TA132 150MHz X1/X10 probe at X10 setting
3.2Vpp 1kHz from signal gen, BNC adaptor, directly on output
4Vpp, 10Vpp, 100Vpp ranges, 12bit high res mode
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=361549)
Some effect is there but suppose no issue with typical usage. But good to learn have to re-cal if doing something ultra accurate.
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For a good comparison you should calculate the relative error. The Siglent from the OP is in the 8% ballpark where the Picoscope's error is less than 2%.
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Also tried with Testec TT-HV 250 x100 probe and interestingly effect was smaller. This is 300MHz probe with 4pF capacitance:
http://www.testec.de/en/products/product-categories/standard-probes/ (http://www.testec.de/en/products/product-categories/standard-probes/)
So interesting if try some higher bandwidth or high impedance probes with Siglent, will effect also be smaller?
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Mine displays this a bit but not nearly as bad as the OPs. I measure about a 4pF change when the attenuator switches out on both channels which I think jives with how much I would have to twiddle the compensation by.
EDIT: Pretty sure my old Tek 465 has holes on the side through which you can match up the attenuators. My Heathkit IO-12 certainly did so that tells you what high quality gear is supposed to be like. >:D
EDIT2: I finally got a chance to double check the measurements and it's spot on 4.0pF on one channel (maybe 4.02pF but you know how that goes) and 4.1pF on the other. The input measures 13.1-13.4pF + 4.0pF so it's "within spec" of 18pF. It almost seems like a calibration error it's so exact. I wonder what other's measure?
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Hello,
with the DSO 2074G it is more worse
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/experience-with-dso-2074g/msg1320502/#msg1320502 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/experience-with-dso-2074g/msg1320502/#msg1320502)
egonotto
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I noticed a very small effect on my SDS1202X-E, both using the built in calibration generator and the one from a Rigol DS1054Z.
I have just tried the Siglent provided probes but I have four nice LeCroy PP005 (I found a really nice deal on eBay for brand new probes).
I'll repeat it using a LeCroy.
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Hi, borjam!
So, what is the difference between Siglent probes and LeCroy probes in the context of this problem?
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Micsig, Keysight, Tektronix, Yokogawa, Iwatsu, R&S or Lecroy.
Anyone else done the relay click with X10 probes test.
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I too have the same problem as the original post. It looks worst when using the fine control between 1.20v and 1.22v (Relay Click).
I'm not sure of the capacitance change at the input when the relay clicks, but measuring the resistance, the input is 1.0023Mohm (1.20v/Div) and 0.9990Mohm (1.22v/Div). A change of 3.3Kohm.
The problem is on both channels and absolutely identical.
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I'm not sure of the capacitance change at the input when the relay clicks, but measuring the resistance, the input is 1.0023Mohm (1.20v/Div) and 0.9990Mohm (1.22v/Div). A change of 3.3Kohm.
I don't think the 3k3 change would do it.
Assuming a SDS1202X-E, connecting a 3M3 resistor directly between the scopes BNC input and its 1kHz should give an on screen measurable change in the rise time or RC time of the scopes input capacitance as the relay clicks between 120mV and 122mV/div.
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Micsig, Keysight, Tektronix, Yokogawa, Iwatsu, R&S or Lecroy.
Anyone else done the relay click with X10 probes test.
Interestingly, LeCroy mentions some differences between V/Div settings in their P007 probe manualhttp://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/pp007_om-e.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/pp007_om-e.pdf).
Although they mention overshot and ringing when mentioning the HF compensation.
(page 10)
"Some overshoot and ring will be present at some settings of V/Div.
Adjust both trimmers for the overall best response on all ranges."
(The trimmers are two hidden trimmers in some LeCroy probes, at least my PP005's have them)
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I don't think the 3k3 change would do it.
Assuming a SDS1202X-E, connecting a 3M3 resistor directly between the scopes BNC input and its 1kHz should give an on screen measurable change in the rise time or RC time of the scopes input capacitance as the relay clicks between 120mV and 122mV/div.
I didn't think the 3K3 would be a problem, after all it's only a change of 0.33%, and yes its an SDS1202X-E.
I've done the test you suggest using a 3M0 resistor (I couldn't find a 3M3), and attached the results.
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"I've done the test you suggest"
Your % change in rise times is twice that I see on the CML+. When viewing a 3Vpp to 8Vpp square wave on 1.2 to 1.22V/div I'd expect your HF compensation error to look much worse than mine or the OP's in the first post. :scared:
I can't get the above link, page 12 in this one but it doesn't say much.
http://ppmtest.com/wp-content/uploads/pp007_om-e.pdf (http://ppmtest.com/wp-content/uploads/pp007_om-e.pdf)
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I'd expect your HF compensation error to look much worse than mine or the OP's in the first post.
I've replicated the first posts screenshots (1-5) for Ch1 input. They look the same to me!
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"I've replicated the first posts screenshots (1-5) for Ch1 input. They look the same to me!"
And me, there's an updated test in reply 8 that keeps the height of the waveforms very similar.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1324788/#msg1324788 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1324788/#msg1324788)
I think mine are just as bad as the OP's in the above post, I'll be adding this to my CML+ list at this rate!
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Siglent are in the last stages of validating a remedy, they say they'll have something for us next week.
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Siglent are in the last stages of validating a remedy, they say they'll have something for us next week.
Wonderful... I'd love to know how they are going to do it though. If it is an hardware problem (which I assume it is), I can only think they are applying a digital filter to compensate for the error, dependent on the voltage range and probe type.
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"I'd love to know how they are going to do it though."
So would I !
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Siglent are in the last stages of validating a remedy, they say they'll have something for us next week.
May be it will be compensated with SW patch
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I hope they don't do some kind of software filtering. That would be bad for people with different probes! :rant:
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Perhaps they could toggle the relay very fast so that it sounds like a buzzer, to act as a reminder to the user to re-compensate the probes every time the relay changes range. :P
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Interesting, I have something similar on my micsig TO1104 and SDS1202X-E, although not to such a big extend. So, when I tune compensation I check squareness at different V/div _and_ timebase levels. Guess what, what is good for one level may show a bit of overshooting/undershooting on another level (a pixel or two). (I dunno why timebase affects picture, may be it's a rendering issue/feature).
I concluded all scopes to some extend have it. Even when people say "I don't have it" they may actually have it. Just look at this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1328565/#msg1328565 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1328565/#msg1328565) . Check the second to the bottom picture. See? :).
Furthermore, different scopes show square wave... differently. Or at least I think so. I think no scope has absolutely flat response (or is it bad probes?), at least not on scopes I can afford.
Also, it may be related to probes as well. I see different models of probes show different response. BTW, I found siglent probes to be nice and easy to compensate (they worked slightly better than my testec TT-HF-212).
BTW, did you let your scope to warm-up for at least 30mins?
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Rigol DS2072A everything is fine.
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Just checked my RTB2004, the only thing i could see was a small change in noise and maybe a slightly larger than normal step in attenuation change.
Would have tested a DS1054Z too but I just sold mine - might try some rigol and tek scopes at work next week though.
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Rigol DS2072A everything is fine.
Picture 5 does not look fine to me
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Picture 5 does not look fine to me
There are no perfect devices.
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We have a resolution to this issue from the factory.
Please do not attempt these modifications unless you have all the tools and rework ability.
It involves adding one 4 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V rated C0G (NP0) capacitor onto unpopulated pads in each channel's input stages and maybe a small adjustment of one or both of the input trimmers.
In a few days when I have the capacitors in hand, member Defpom has indicated he will do a vid for us of the whole procedure.
Please find attached the disassembly, rework and adjustment instructions from the team at Siglent.
Rework video containing adjustments and dis/reassembly guidance:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1456838/#msg1456838 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1456838/#msg1456838)
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Is there also a fix available for the SDS1102X ?
This issue is even worse as on the E model. See picture below (picture is taken from other user in this forum in a previous posting).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1273415/#msg1273415 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1273415/#msg1273415)
I have the same issue, as per posted picture, and yes my generators are fine, it's the scope.
I would like to do the modification myself.
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Thank you.
Now I wonder, will they honor warranty on this issue? It's going to be a problem, I am in Spain and I purchased it from Batronix (Germany).
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Is there also a fix available for the SDS1102X ?
I'll do some research with an X I have here and ask the factory if a similar fix is needed.
Thank you.
Now I wonder, will they honor warranty on this issue?
I don't know how. It will take longer to do the paperwork, packaging and despatch than the rework.
One might ask the same of other manufacturers that have this same issue......you can see by the replies there are some ........... and how many other members are reluctant to share their 10x compensation mismatch experience.
It could be more common than we think. Good video topic for Dave.
The X-E is quite simple to get apart although you must engage brain so to not damage anything but the soldering is a little tricky as it's inside the shielded input box. The 4pF cap is paralleled alongside an existing cap, the value of which I should've measured when I had my demo unit apart. Grrrr. Will measure it later.
Then the scope must be partially reassembled and powered on to check the waveform and maybe adjust the trimmers. I think the job can be done in ~40 mins providing all tools are ready and at hand. (challenge for Defpom :) )
All that's needed to disassemble X-E is #2 Phillips, medium flat blade screwdriver and 16mm or 5/8" AF Ring spanner or deep reach socket or even an adjustable spanner will undo the BNC nuts. (they're not recessed :) )
Four connectors need to be unplugged, display flat cable (locking connector and fabric adhesive tape), front panel ribbon cable (locking connector) fan and PSU.
Undo the 3 BNC nuts and then you have the mainboard free to remove the input shielding cover and solder the caps in. The mainboard is covered in fragile components and need be handled with care, some antistatic sheet foam will be good to avoid any damage.
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For now it's not a terrible issue for me, so I will probably pass on it.
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Nice to see dealing with issue in fast and decisive manner. If look at the other end of spectrum - some other brand popular scope change signal amplitude by 43% if switch Sinc ON|OFF (100MHz sine in). Also lie about rise times etc. Issues never acknowledged/fixed.
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Nice to see dealing with issue in fast and decisive manner.
I don't think so. Any A-brand would do a recall and fix the problem for free. Having people deal with soldering SMD and handling small connectors themselves is a recipe for dissaster. How is this going to work out when it comes to warranty? The second best option would be to have the local dealers handle it by sending the scopes to a local company which specialises in repairing electronics at a component level (for example a laptop repair service).
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Is there also a fix available for the SDS1102X ?
This issue is even worse as on the E model. See picture below (picture is taken from other user in this forum in a previous posting).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1273415/#msg1273415 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1273415/#msg1273415)
I have the same issue, as per posted picture, and yes my generators are fine, it's the scope.
I would like to do the modification myself.
AFAIK the VLF 100Hz square wave thing, and this HF X10 compensation when relay clicks thing are completely different. Of course you could be unlucky and have both!
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Nice to see dealing with issue in fast and decisive manner.
I don't think so. Any A-brand would do a recall and fix the problem for free. Having people deal with soldering SMD and handling small connectors themselves is a recipe for dissaster. How is this going to work out when it comes to warranty? The second best option would be to have the local dealers handle it by sending the scopes to a local company which specialises in repairing electronics at a component level (for example a laptop repair service).
I'd agree if this is the only option for the fix. Tautech - Is DIY SMD soldering the only way people will get the issue sorted? Or is this just an option for those who'd prefer to do it themselves, with return for service for anyone who doesn't want to do the soldering? If it's the latter then if I owned one I'd be happy to have both options (and would likely do the soldering in preference to mucking about posting it off).
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Nice to see dealing with issue in fast and decisive manner.
I don't think so. Any A-brand would do a recall and fix the problem for free. Having people deal with soldering SMD and handling small connectors themselves is a recipe for dissaster. How is this going to work out when it comes to warranty? The second best option would be to have the local dealers handle it by sending the scopes to a local company which specialises in repairing electronics at a component level (for example a laptop repair service).
I'd agree if this is the only option for the fix. Tautech - Is DIY SMD soldering the only way people will get the issue sorted? Or is this just an option for those who'd prefer to do it themselves, with return for service for anyone who doesn't want to do the soldering? If it's the latter then if I owned one I'd be happy to have both options (and would likely do the soldering in preference to mucking about posting it off).
SMD soldering + trimmer adjustment... it will void any factory calibration. Will Siglent recalibrate for free all scopes repaired by customers? And not all 4pf SMD capacitors are the same, so even if you do the fix, you might end up with a different result tested by Siglent.
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Another problem I see is that if the board needs further adjustment you have to run it with the power supply outside the case as well. And some connectors are fixated with glue. Look at Dave's teardown on how to take it apart.
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I don't think so. Any A-brand would do a recall and fix the problem for free. Having people deal with soldering SMD and handling small connectors themselves is a recipe for dissaster. How is this going to work out when it comes to warranty?
Well gotta put things in perspective. I have two quite ok 120MHz signal gens on the desk here, total expense ~1000€. What will A-brand offer for that money? To get similar (for my needs) ~10k€ easy.
Ok, I had to replace mainboard in one of mine - so what, works just fine afterwards.
Now if look scopes - what you get for similar price from A-brands? Mostly nothing at all, at best dumbed down toys with only +-*/ math capability*
But of course, warranty must remain and go in effect, even if user will break scope in repair process. I personally would actually prefer DIY repair because very reluctant to give out my usually very clean, well handled and scratch free equipment.
If all this too extreme may pay bit more and go for GWI or some other "middle ground" brand.
*beware, it may be considered racist practice if you know and use math
http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/23/professor-claims-math-algebra-and-geometry-promote-white-privilege/ (http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/23/professor-claims-math-algebra-and-geometry-promote-white-privilege/)
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I would have expected Step 3: Tweak the front end to start with
compensate the probes on 0.5V/div or 1V/div using the scope's 1kHz before starting.
Edit. The 2 variable cap. check/tweak, is nothing to do with X10 probes.
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I would have expected Step 3: Tweak the front end to start with compensate the probes on 0.5V/div or 1V/div using the scope's 1kHz before starting.
Afaik, this front end adjustment procedure with signal generator do not need probes.
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I would have expected Step 3: Tweak the front end to start with compensate the probes on 0.5V/div or 1V/div using the scope's 1kHz before starting.
Afaik, this front end adjustment procedure with signal generator do not need probes.
Yes some elaboration on the front end calibration would be nice. I too assumed this step should be performed without probes (coax only), but reading it again it would make more sense to use middle-adjusted x10 probes.
Teardown and soldering is not a big hurdle, but getting the calibration right is a little scary. Especially for casuals like me with my mostly bottom shelf aliexpress test equipement=)
Also any chance of getting a set of correct caps mailed out on request? Or at least a list of supplier product page links for each region?
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Yes some elaboration on the front end calibration would be nice. I too assumed this step should be performed without probes (coax only), but reading it again it would make more sense to use middle-adjusted x10 probes.
That makes sense to me, I don't understand how it can be done without using X10 probes, but if it's not clear to at least 3 of us Step 3: Tweak the front end is not clear. I don't why it's done at 10kHz either, there's not much LF response left to compare the HF response against at that frequency.
Shall I ask about a similar fix for my CML+? :-DD >:D
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084)
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That makes sense to me, I don't understand how it can be done without using X10 probes, but if it's not clear to at least 3 of us Step 3: Tweak the front end is not clear. I don't why it's done at 10kHz either, there's not much LF response left to compare the HF response against at that frequency.
The datasheet says 18pF input, so I think you'd want to make a little thru board that has a 50 ohm load, plus a series 1Mohm || 18 pF.
You may need a slightly different capacitor value due to board parasitics....
Thoughts?
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I would have expected Step 3: Tweak the front end to start with compensate the probes on 0.5V/div or 1V/div using the scope's 1kHz before starting.
Afaik, this front end adjustment procedure with signal generator do not need probes.
Yes some elaboration on the front end calibration would be nice. I too assumed this step should be performed without probes (coax only), but reading it again it would make more sense to use middle-adjusted x10 probes.
No. Connect a function generator directly with a coax cable! The adjustment is for the input circuit's capacitive divider and not the probe.
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FWIW the solution suits me fine. Honestly I'd rather this than shipping out my 'scope. But I wonder if we can get some replacement "Warranty void if removed" stickers from Siglent? >:D
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Hello,
I bought my oscilloscope in Germany, how do I get the capacitor without having to return the oscilloscope for hidden defect (DIRECTIVE 1999/44 / EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE COUNCIL of May 25, 1999.)
There is also the solution to cancel the sale for hidden defects and to be reimbursed without charge.
However, if I can get the capacitor 3.9 pf 500V NPO for free (or at the right price) to make the change myself, it's ok.
What is the original value of CB106 ? To replace CB106 with an added value of +/- 4pf ?
Adding 1 or 2 (or more) picofarad in // CB106 would correct a little the default
Calibration certificate supplied with the device !!
Regards
Diabolo
----
Capacitor 3.9 pf 500V SMD 1206 NPO => C1206CRNPOBBN3R9
https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Yageo/CC1206CRNPOBBN3R9/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsh%252b1woXyUXjyKgiPHH4l74keS21JCSpD4=
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:1999:171:0012:0016:FR:PDF (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:1999:171:0012:0016:FR:PDF)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=360433;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=360433;image)
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What is the original value of CB106 ?
It measures ~16pF in circuit.
To replace CB106 with an added value of +/- 4pf ?
No, it will be much easier to add the 4pF cap onto the vacant/unpopulated C*105 position.
There are two caps to add, one for each channel in the C*105 position. CA105= Ch1, CB105= Ch2
Adding 1 or 2 (or more) picofarad in // CB106 would correct a little the default
The C*105 4pF cap is paralleled with C*106 and to add C*105 is the simplest lowest risk solution.
Yes some elaboration on the front end calibration would be nice. I too assumed this step should be performed without probes (coax only), but reading it again it would make more sense to use middle-adjusted x10 probes.
No. Connect a function generator directly with a coax cable! The adjustment is for the input circuit's capacitive divider and not the probe.
Correct.
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No, it will be much easier to add the 4pF cap onto the vacant/unpopulated C*105 position.
There are two caps to add, one for each channel in the C*105 position. CA105= Ch1, CB105= Ch2
C105 is paralleled with C106 but left unpopulated... is this a common practice on DSO front ends?
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No, it will be much easier to add the 4pF cap onto the vacant/unpopulated C*105 position.
There are two caps to add, one for each channel in the C*105 position. CA105= Ch1, CB105= Ch2
C105 is paralleled with C106 but left unpopulated... is this a common practice on DSO front ends?
I've no idea if it is or isn't.
From a design POV, it's good practice should part of the circuit should need trimming as it does in this case.
If you look at Dave's teardown image you'll see a good # of unpopulated positions, R's and C's.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=360433;image)
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Hello,
Looking unpopulated positions are always in // with a component. Certainly to finely adjust a precise value but unused value in the SDS 1202X-E.
Breaking the warranty band to "improve" on the NEW device to obtain a correct product is no good for Siglent and members will need to better target their future purchases.
Can the modification alter the accuracy of other measurements, or bandwidth ?
What does Siglent intend to do for abused buyers ?
Will Siglent supply the 2 capacitors for free on presentation of the purchase invoice for the SDS 1202X-E? It would be a gesture a minimum.
Out of respect for the buyers, Siglent should set up an email link to obtain the free 2 capacitors and a new guarantee band.
As for the calibration certificate that comes with the device, it only has the value of ink to print it, or to light the fire in the chimney !!
Sorry for my English, I correct the text with a translator.
Diabolo
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OK, so we have a solution to this problem. However I see the solution more of a problem than the original problem!!!!
Firstly, where the hell do you get a small quantity of 4pF 500V 1206 capacitors from. I've looked through my normal suppliers Farnell (Element 14), RS, Digikey etc and not surprisingly they don't supply them. They are out of stock at other suppliers and even if they were in stock I would be expected to buy a reel of 4000.
Secondly, and this is the really big problem, is that any rework by myself will no doubt invalidate the 3 year manufacturers warranty. Even If Siglent were to say that the warranty would be honoured after the modification, it would still screw up my rights under the Sale of Good Act and Distance Selling Regulations, (UK).
Thirdly, the lack of the calibration label and an invalid calibration certificate would no doubt reduce the resale value of the instrument.
Although the rework to add the capacitors would be a doddle to do (If I had the capacitors), I think I will contact my supplier to see what he has to say.
If Siglent have applied this change to later production of this model, then they should product recall existing units to have the modification and recalibration done, (or at least offer a free service to those that want it [including all shipping costs]). Otherwise all Siglent will have done is to use the early buyers of this product as free hardware beta testers.
Additional thought... Won't adding components screw up the CE certification?
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Firstly, where the hell do you get a small quantity of 4pF 500V 1206 capacitors from.
I'm pretty sure this is not a problem. I don't think size is important in this case (take 0805 or 0603). May be even capacitance is not that important and, say, 3.9pF or 4.1pF would be good-enough. But Siglent has to better specify requirements (at least capacitance, tolerance, voltage rating) and, hopefully, a list of approved parts. I wouldn't expect frequency response to be an issue, but I'd check with the datasheet just in case. Kemet, Murata and AVX provide impedance curves. DC bias should not be a problem for such capacitors.
At the end, no oscilloscope is perfect and no two scopes show the same picture.
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Firstly, where the hell do you get a small quantity of 4pF 500V 1206 capacitors from.
I'm pretty sure this is not a problem. I don't think size is important in this case (take 0805 or 0603). May be even capacitance is not that important and, say, 3.9pF or 4.1pF would be good-enough. But Siglent has to better specify requirements (at least capacitance, tolerance, voltage rating) and, hopefully, a list of approved parts. I wouldn't expect frequency response to be an issue, but I'd check with the datasheet just in case. Kemet, Murata and AVX provide impedance curves. DC bias should not be a problem for such capacitors.
At the end, no oscilloscope is perfect and no two scopes show the same picture.
Replacement cap specs and suitable parts are listed in the rework instructions I posted.
The caps must be 500V rated to preserve the scope's 400V rated inputs.
Good luck finding to 0805 500V rated ceramic SMD caps.
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Firstly, where the hell do you get a small quantity of 4pF 500V 1206 capacitors from.
I'm pretty sure this is not a problem. I don't think size is important in this case (take 0805 or 0603). May be even capacitance is not that important and, say, 3.9pF or 4.1pF would be good-enough. But Siglent has to better specify requirements (at least capacitance, tolerance, voltage rating) and, hopefully, a list of approved parts. I wouldn't expect frequency response to be an issue, but I'd check with the datasheet just in case. Kemet, Murata and AVX provide impedance curves. DC bias should not be a problem for such capacitors.
.
They are specified.
And DC bias, of course not. Dielectric is C0G, not X7R shit
First, PCB is made for 1206 size. There do not need thinking if this or that is ok. Ok is 1206. Period.
Tolerance is specified. Named Vishay capacxitors have +/- 0.25pF tolerance.
Voltage. Specified. As can read named Vishay capacitors have 500V (CXLT) or 630V (CXET)
Recommended Vishay parts
VJ 1206 A 3R9 CXL... size 1206, C0G (NP0), 3.9pF, +0.25pF, Ni barrier Tin coat, 500V (this is mandatory minimum without exeptions)
VJ 1206 A 3R9 CXE... size 1206, C0G (NP0), 3.9pF, +0.25pF, Ni barrier Tin coat, 630V
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Replacement cap specs and suitable parts are listed in the rework instructions I posted.
Sorry, I missed that post.
I assumed a 4pF capacitors should be common as dirt. To my big surprise, these capacitors are much rarer than I expected when it comes to this voltage.
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Hello,
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_217613CondosWWMouserfr.png) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=217613CondosWWMouserfr.png)
https://www.mouser.fr/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Ceramic-Capacitors/_/N-5g8m?P=1z0wpt7Z1yx4arcZ1yxbokaZ1z0spi1Z1yzmoty (https://www.mouser.fr/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Ceramic-Capacitors/_/N-5g8m?P=1z0wpt7Z1yx4arcZ1yxbokaZ1z0spi1Z1yzmoty)
https://eu.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Ceramic-Capacitors/_/N-5g8m?P=1z0wpt7Z1yx4arcZ1yxbokaZ1z0spi1 (https://eu.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Ceramic-Capacitors/_/N-5g8m?P=1z0wpt7Z1yx4arcZ1yxbokaZ1z0spi1)
Condenser can be sold individually.
Make a bulk order to lower shipping costs.
Shipping costs are high, a member can make a large order of these capacitors, and dispatcher in single envelope after payment of a fixed price by Paypal of the buyer.
Diabolo
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Unless you run a complete regression test on the fixed scope, you are not sure what this fix is going to break down the path... I wouldn't do it being the original issue a minor one.
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Unless you run a complete regression test on the fixed scope, you are not sure what this fix is going to break down the path... I wouldn't do it being the original issue a minor one.
Now you are being overly worried. A single capacitor somewhere at the input isn't going to cause a malfunction of the oscilloscope for sure or screw up it's calibration beyond what a self-calibration can't compensate for. An oscilloscope is not a high precision instrument to begin with.
What would concern me more is that in order to do this fix you need an ESD safe workstation (at least an ESD mat, wrist strap, ESD safe soldering iron) and good soldering skills.
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I'd also suggest be careful with not leaving flux on the board.
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What I am trying to say is that if anything weird happens after the fix, you will not be sure if it was the fix or it is a new bug and you will end up removing the caps just to verify, soldering them back... Maybe it breaks some calibration at different settings.
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What would concern me more is that in order to do this fix you need an ESD safe workstation (at least an ESD mat, wrist strap, ESD safe soldering iron) and good soldering skills.
This IS real concern when who ever with what ever knowledge and experience and skills start this kind of work. Yes even when work is so simplex that need only add 2 small capacitors.
For experienced people/professional this is piece of biscuit what can do with left hand alone but for people who do not know how low his skill and knowledge is, there is so many things what may lead problems and trap is trigged. I have seen so many things where someone have example disconnected flat film cable and assembled it again. After then can ask just; why hell you did this total disaster.
ESD is more fun than many think. After ESD it can work just normally and then people think that all was ok. But he do not know there is now time bomb inside some circuit---tick-tack-....tick-tack... ESD Induced Latent Defects.
Also these some cable connections need handle with skills and care.
Edit: Quote repaired
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ESD is not to be underestimated for sure. Several decades ago I sold self assembled PCs every now and then. Due to space constraints I assembled one PC in a non-ESD safe environment. Almost every part of that PC failed within the warranty period!
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Hello,
Heat the soldering iron, then unplug it to make the solder with the hot tip, it is also a solution.
Personally, I have a soldering iron running on Li-ion battery, so no problem for me.
There is (?) Also the solution to manufacture these capabilities with "pigtail" by twisting 2 electric wires, or use 50 ohm 2 mm teflon cable and cut to the right length to get the right capacity in pf.
Diabolo
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Hello,
Heat the soldering iron, then unplug it to make the solder with the hot tip, it is also a solution.
No it is not because it can be still have a static charge.
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Before welding we touch the tip of the soldering iron with the mass, and presto ! ;)
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Before welding we touch the tip of the soldering iron with the mass, and presto ! ;)
And then you move your arm to build up a new charge.
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I would think shorting the BNC input, or putting a 50R termination on it, would help protect the input components from static while you're "welding" the cap. in.
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I would think shorting the BNC input, or putting a 50R termination on it, would help protect the input components from static while you're "welding" the cap. in.
Nope. ESD is exaclty like lightning. It is a charge which discharges through the path with least resistance. The only thing which helps is keeping everything at the same ground potential = at least an ESD mat, ESD safe tools and a wrist band/ground strap.
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Nope. ESD is exactly like lightning. It is a charge which discharges through the path with least resistance.
A short to the equipment's GND is going to be hard to beat.
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Nope. ESD is exactly like lightning. It is a charge which discharges through the path with least resistance.
A short to the equipment's GND is going to be hard to beat.
Not if that ground is disconnected from the rest.
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Hi siglent, since you are clearly not focussing on the professional market, make your shortcomings a feature. Make buying a siglent scope a multi-stage educational experience. Supply it with a soldering iron and some unpopulated pcb's and parts.
First chapter, you solder a through hole ne555 blinking led together. Next one is to try it with smd parts. When you mastered this you can start filling in the unpopulated parts of the scope.
Now you hopefully have a properly working scope on the hardware level and it's time to move on to software. Make the software open source and give guidelines on how to find the bugs. Students can work together to find these and come up with a solution.
If a student manages to return an actually working piece of measurement equipment you hand out an eev diploma and hire him.
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Nope. ESD is exactly like lightning. It is a charge which discharges through the path with least resistance.
A short to the equipment's GND is going to be hard to beat.
The mainboard must be completely removed from the chassis for the rework therefore all ground connections are lost.
ESD precautions are a must.
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Hello,
By using latex gloves one must be able to avoid the problem of electro-static discharges.
If I can get the 2 capacitors I make the modification using my soldering iron on li-ion battery.
I am not paranoid at this point, but short circuit the BNC plug will be a plus.
Diabolo
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By using latex gloves one must be able to avoid the problem of electro-static discharges.
:palm: :palm: :palm:
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Hello,
We will talk about it again when I solder the 2 capacitors.
I never took special precautions and it always went well.
I will not dress like a cosmonaut to solder 2 unfortunate capacitors, it's not nitroglycerine!
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Several decades ago I sold self assembled PCs every now and then. Due to space constraints I assembled one PC in a non-ESD safe environment. Almost every part of that PC failed within the warranty period!
Did these PCs employ cheapest crap on mostly yellow-colored boards? I did same briefly and also most of them failed sooner or later. Interesting that best possible components that went to my or my friends machines never failed, despite insane overclocking :P PII 300 @ 450 MHz + ATI Rage was all the rage :-+
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By using latex gloves one must be able to avoid the problem of electro-static discharges.
If I can get the 2 capacitors
You can solder the capacitor to the PCB in a bath. Not a joke. Metal bath and water pipes are good for an ESD protection
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Several decades ago I sold self assembled PCs every now and then. Due to space constraints I assembled one PC in a non-ESD safe environment. Almost every part of that PC failed within the warranty period!
Did these PCs employ cheapest crap on mostly yellow-colored boards?
No. Ofcourse not because I (still) don't want to deal with warranty issues so I only used top notch components with a proven track record.
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Hello,
Do not create a psychosis with welding without ESD.
On a laptop, the only time a pro soldered an integrated circuit with a strap, anti-static mat etc ... the component soldered by him never worked.
I replaced i self this integrated circuit even barbaric way without any precautions, and it still works.
Regards
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No. Ofcourse not because I (still) don't want to deal with warranty issues so I only used top notch components with a proven track record.
I did not get to pick what to use :'(
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ESD is not to be underestimated for sure. Several decades ago I sold self assembled PCs every now and then. Due to space constraints I assembled one PC in a non-ESD safe environment. Almost every part of that PC failed within the warranty period!
While I do think ESD is an underestimated problem, you need an extraordinarily static prone environment or amount of bad luck for that to happen.
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Hello,
We will talk about it again when I solder the 2 capacitors.
I never took special precautions and it always went well.
I will not dress like a cosmonaut to solder 2 unfortunate capacitors, it's not nitroglycerine!
You are working with sensitive circuit board. Not only with 2 capacitors. You need handle whole main board. You need disconnect sensitive bus cables. You handle this pcb. First you unistall all for this rework and after then you assemble all back. All time you are handling whole circuit what is ESD sensitive. If you think ESD safe work is some kind of joke this tell only that you dop not have enough experience, knowledge and education. With you words I hope you never go to any serious factory what make ESD sensitive electronics. Of course some can teach you but because of the wrong attitude it may also be useless. Many things seem simpler and more unnecessary, depending on how little you know. Knowledge increases the pain.
Of course this is not rocketr science. Just simple but right methods and follow right rules and practices and all is ok.
Btw, have you never seen ESD damaged capacitor. Or resistor. In some rare cases even PCB itself can damage in some special cases.
3kV is guite low. 50kV is nice. <10V can damage some sensitive components etc etc..
But so or so. Understanding even part of this may tell that ESD things need take seriously if is doing something seriously with electronics. Even when thing feels "simple". It is much more complex than most can imagine.
"Optimization of ESD Protection Methods in Electronics Assembly Based on Process
and Product Specific Risks"
https://tutcris.tut.fi/portal/files/8786851/tamminen_1439.pdf (https://tutcris.tut.fi/portal/files/8786851/tamminen_1439.pdf)
CISCO ESD training
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/training-events/esd-training-program/how-much-static.html (https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/training-events/esd-training-program/how-much-static.html)
So lets stop joking about serious things with electronics. I still believe this is not kindergarten. If do not know it can tell. Some peoples here can then kindly teach. Here is lot of also peoples who really have lot of knowledge and experience. It do not cost anything if ask instead of start joking. Difficult is if human do not know and he do not know this. This is - sad.
Damages can avoid using very simple but right things and working practices. Only need know and follow simple rules instead of thoughts and beliefs or "so what" thinking.
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When Dave unmounted 1202X-E, he was concerned about esd ?
Unless I'm mistaken, I have not seen protection of any kind.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA)
Rest assured, I will still be careful.
-
When Dave unmounted 1202X-E, he was concerned about esd ?
Unless I'm mistaken, I have not seen protection of any kind.
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA)
Rest assured, I will still be careful.
Do you see that pale green mat in the background? That used to be blue, but more importantly, is a grounded ESD mat.
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There is a word : "You must do what preacher say , not what him do in the real life"... :)
Nobody can contest the theory .For an 500uV front-end from a digital scope we must take precautions .
Now I have a question : Soldering of two capacitors is easy to do but what about the warranty seal ?
Siglent will honor the warranty on these scopes ?
rf-loop , tautech can you give us this answer ?
Thank you !
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Now I have a question : Soldering of two capacitors is easy to do but what about the warranty seal ?
Siglent will honor the warranty on these scopes ?
In return a question: Would you if it's not done in an authorised Siglent service centre ?
Siglent have not made an official statement on this matter so if you're worried about warranty, contact your supplier or one of the Siglent branches.
We have shared the fix, it is up to the owner to choose the method that is best for them.
As mentioned the risks are ESD damage and also damage to the ribbon cables or their connectors, these parts must be worked on with care and the whole process not hurried.
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So , with RMA costs , price of this scope is not so low.
After attempts to minimize auto setup fails by doing firmware reflash followed by selfcalibration , the compensation issue is even worse ... |O
Keysight has right : "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope".
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In return a question: Would you if it's not done in an authorised Siglent service centre ?
Siglent have not made an official statement on this matter so if you're worried about warranty, contact your supplier or one of the Siglent branches.
We have shared the fix, it is up to the owner to choose the method that is best for them.
As mentioned the risks are ESD damage and also damage to the ribbon cables or their connectors, these parts must be worked on with care and the whole process not hurried.
I was under the impression that it is a sanctioned modification. How can customers with this issue return their oscilloscope for a free repair?
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So , with RMA costs , price of this scope is not so low.
After attempts to minimize auto setup fails by doing firmware reflash followed by selfcalibration , the compensation issue is even worse ... |O
Keysight has right : "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope".
You mean the scope that comes with crappy probes, which are temparature sensitive, and need to warm up ?
Or with the Lelong caps in the PSU
Or with Flash corruption, so you need to send the complete unit back to Keysight ?
Get real, and ignore all the marketing BS from Keysight
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I contacted my supplier, Batronix, and they told me that Siglent is releasing a new motherboard. It will take some time, so they are going to call me back when the situation is clearer.
This must be fixed by Siglent under warranty, any other suggestion would be ridiculous. It's a design/manufacturing error.
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I contacted my supplier, Batronix, and they told me that Siglent is releasing a new motherboard. It will take some time, so they are going to call me back when the situation is clearer.
This must be fixed by Siglent under warranty, any other suggestion would be ridiculous. It's a design/manufacturing error.
Strong words.
Sure it is not a good situation but I ask how does the unit not meet spec ?
It does and therefore is not a warranty issue.
If Siglent choose to rework or replace the mainboard it is in goodwill for their many existing customers.
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I contacted my supplier, Batronix, and they told me that Siglent is releasing a new motherboard. It will take some time, so they are going to call me back when the situation is clearer.
This must be fixed by Siglent under warranty, any other suggestion would be ridiculous. It's a design/manufacturing error.
Please inform us when you get the answer back from Batronix, I was just about to order the scope from them.
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Strong words.
Sure it is not a good situation but I ask how does the unit not meet spec ?
It does and therefore is not a warranty issue.
If Siglent choose to rework or replace the mainboard it is in goodwill for their many existing customers.
It's simple. User manual doesn't specify that x10 probes must be calibrated whenever one changes the vertical scale. So I think it's safe to assume that the calibration will hold. It doesn't? Well, there seems to be a problem in my book.
The question is: is it a design or manufacturing error or not?
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Strong words.
Sure it is not a good situation but I ask how does the unit not meet spec ?
It does and therefore is not a warranty issue.
If Siglent choose to rework or replace the mainboard it is in goodwill for their many existing customers.
If Siglent declares this to be normal and acceptable behaviour, they won't be considered a serious player for years to come. It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it.
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/warrenbuff108887.html (https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/warrenbuff108887.html)
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If Siglent choose to rework or replace the mainboard it is in goodwill for their many existing customers.
Are you serious? goodwill??????
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Are you serious? goodwill??????
Maybe GoodWill-Instek, better known as GW-Instek ;D
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Please inform us when you get the answer back from Batronix, I was just about to order the scope from them.
Same here.
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I contacted my supplier, Batronix, and they told me that Siglent is releasing a new motherboard. It will take some time, so they are going to call me back when the situation is clearer.
This must be fixed by Siglent under warranty, any other suggestion would be ridiculous. It's a design/manufacturing error.
Strong words.
Sure it is not a good situation but I ask how does the unit not meet spec ?
It does and therefore is not a warranty issue.
Please don't pretend to be dumb. :box:
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We have a resolution to this issue from the factory.
Please do not attempt these modifications unless you have all the tools and rework ability.
It involves adding one 4 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V rated C0G (NP0) capacitor onto unpopulated pads in each channel's input stages and maybe a small adjustment of one or both of the input trimmers.
In a few days when I have the capacitors in hand, member Defpom has indicated he will do a vid for us of the whole procedure.
Please find attached the disassembly, rework and adjustment instructions from the team at Siglent.
Hello,
The Depform member is where with the modification of the 2 input stages of the SDS 1202X-E ?
It would be interesting to see the result of this modification with the capacitors of 3.9pf to allow us then to judge if the operation is ok.
Regards,
Diabolo
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I was at the time about to buy the Siglent SDS 1202X-E but after hearing of the composition issue, I decided against it.
It's a great shame as it appears in most other senses a great scope.
I hope you chaps and lasses can get them fixed.
Trys
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I contacted my supplier, Batronix, and they told me that Siglent is releasing a new motherboard. It will take some time, so they are going to call me back when the situation is clearer.
This must be fixed by Siglent under warranty, any other suggestion would be ridiculous. It's a design/manufacturing error.
Strong words.
Sure it is not a good situation but I ask how does the unit not meet spec ?
It does and therefore is not a warranty issue.
Please don't pretend to be dumb. :box:
I've got a bit more time so I will explain why it doesn't meet the specs. In short: there isn't such a thing as DC!
Long story: An oscilloscope has two basic specifications: DC accuracy and -3dB bandwidth. DC accuracy is usually around 2%. However if you look at the -3dB bandwidth then the error suddenly is a factor 1/10^(-3/20)=1.41 (41%). Now if you say DC=0 Hz then it would be allowed to have an error of slightly less than 1.41 at 0.0001Hz to still meet the bandwidth spec. Needless to say that such an oscilloscope would be utterly useless because a 1kHz 5Vpp square wave could be shown as anything between 3.54Vpp and 7.05Vpp. In other words: the DC specs should extend to a significant portion of the bandwidth in order for an oscilloscope to be usefull.
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I was at the time about to buy the Siglent SDS 1202X-E but after hearing of the composition issue, I decided against it.
It's a great shame as it appears in most other senses a great scope.
I hope you chaps and lasses can get them fixed.
Trys
I've postponed buying a DS1054Z because the SDS1204X-E was on the horizon. The SDS1202X-E obviously has its issues, but most scopes do when they first arrive. However, solving a problem by flat out denying it's a problem isn't what I'm looking for, and if that turns out the be the final answer, I'll pass on both units. Having huge support is what makes the DS1054Z attractive, even if it's the community providing the support.
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I would hardly say Siglent are denying there is an issue, they did after all publish a note on how to correct the issue.
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I would hardly say Siglent are denying there is an issue, they did after all publish a note on how to correct the issue.
I guess it depends whether you would call a distributor part of Siglent.
-
Siglent are missing a trick here - they should leak out a story saying that the scope can be hacked to give extra resolution for free - then everyone would be scrambling to buy the caps and solder them in.
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I would hardly say Siglent are denying there is an issue, they did after all publish a note on how to correct the issue.
I guess it depends whether you would call a distributor part of Siglent.
Then you need download it and see that it came from Siglent.
As mentioned earlier the document is based on production line verification of the fix.
It is the official rework guide.
A note to those that might be wondering.....All new units for the last couple of weeks production have had a HW change to correct the 10x probe input compensation issue.
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@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
-
@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
Units with BB in the build code that is part of the full SN# are from HW revision to remedy the input compensation issue. At this time there has been ~3 weeks production since changes were made.
-
Hello,
Siglent publishes a note of modification material at the expense of the customer who must buy the parts and solder them with the bonus of the loss of the guarantee of 3 years, and hop basta!
It's mafia behavior, that!
And if tomorrow car manufacturers, or other products do the same, would you accept it?
Siglent must take back the material to bring it in line with the current production modified, because the old buyers have a poor device compared to the future production, thus of less value!
Fuck the customer is the motto of Siglent?
Siglent must provide gratis capacities 3,9pf and a guarantee band, it is a minimum, or take the old devices to modify them by respect for their buyers!
I do not agree and I invite ripped buyers to advertise Siglent on the Web!
Regards,
Diabolo
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Snipped
Siglent must provide gratis capacities 3,9pf and a guarantee band, it is a minimum, or take the old devices to modify them by respect for their buyers!
Contact your supplier for a remedy that best suits you.
Personal rework might suit you or done by the service center.
You need to talk to them.
It is not possible for Siglent to mail caps to each and every buyer, instead good suppliers will have them on hand for rework and customer requests.
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Hello,
For me it's not a problem to install these 2 capacitors 3.9pf on my SDS 1202X-E 4 months old.
----
But I think of other buyers "scammed" who will pay € 1.60 * 2 + € 20 shipping costs (or € 23.60) that add to the purchase price of the SDS 1202X-E to get the 2 capacities 3.9pf and lose their 3 year warranty to have a correct SDS 1202X-E!
Siglent knew how to sell its imperfect SDS1202X-E and cash the buyers' money, Siglent must assume its mistake to maintain the buyer's trust and respect.
If Siglent becomes the object of bad publicity on the WEB on the part of the buyers "scammed", Siglent will be punished and will only take it alone.
As for the spectrum analyzer that I planned to buy, it will not be a Siglent!
----
https://www.mouser.fr/Passive-Components/Capacitors/_/N-5g7r?P=1z0wpt7Z1yx4arcZ1z0spi1Z1yzmoty (https://www.mouser.fr/Passive-Components/Capacitors/_/N-5g7r?P=1z0wpt7Z1yx4arcZ1z0spi1Z1yzmoty)
Regards,
Diabolo
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I don't believe "Scammed" is the right phrase, the scope is a new design, and as can happen there are some bugs to work out of the design which were picked up after initial sale.
My belief would be that Siglent would simply deal with any customers which are worried about the compensation issue with warranty support, Siglent have acknowledged the issue (some manufacturers wouldn't even do that), and I am sure that any dealers if approached by a customer with this issue would look after the customer and get the issue dealt with for them.
The "re-work info" was put out there I expect as a way of being helpful (possibly as a instruction for warranty work for service agents), I highly doubt that Siglent would actually expect anyone to do the work themselves, unless they actually want to !
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Hello,
I have the capacitors on an order that must leave soon, I will do myself the soldering of 2 capacitors 3.9pf, it is not a problem.
In any case it is not a good point for Siglent to sell unfinished hardware or buggy on the hardware!
A software bug is fixed with updates, but not for a hardware bug that imposes constraints on the customers while leaving them thinking that they have bought a wrong product.
I would like to remind you that this compensation problem was discovered and revealed by a client (French) and not by Siglent. What are engineers and controllers doing at Siglent?
Thank you for your reply.
Regards,
Diabolo
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Hi ,
Good news!
Siglent tell me that they will send me a new mainboard as soon as them will arrive in Hamburg (next month) .
They say that this will not affect the warranty of scope .
So it seem that they care about our problem !
:-+
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Answer I got today:
Siglent offered to repair these scopes, currently they are waiting for new working motherboards.
They await these new boards in around 4 weeks, then we are able to send affected devices back to Siglent for service.
I'll forward your request to Siglent to get additional information from Siglent.
I think they handle this like any serious supplier should do.
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My supplier in the UK has just offered a fix by returning the unit for a motherboard change in a few weeks time (3 yr Warranty still valid). All I need to do now is to get them to pay for the return carrier costs as per the UK's Sale of Goods Act!
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Hello,
The Siglent site does not make an information note about the problem of compensation on SDS 1202X-E, how do buyers who do not consult the Eevblog forum?
How are buyers notified that they have purchased a defective unit?
How do customers buy a SDS 1202X-E outside of an authorized Siglent distributor?
If I understand, only buyers informed about this compensation problem can get a warranty upgrade, but for other buyers how does it work?
Siglent should put a reminder note on its, or its sites, so every SDS 1202X-E owner will be notified of the problem when he comes to a Siglent site to check for a firmware update, for example.
Distributors who have sold SDS 1202X-E may, and must contact their buyers since they have contact information for their customers.
Sorry for my English, I correct with a translator.
Regards,
Diabolo
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Distributors who have sold SDS 1202X-E may, and must contact their buyers since they have contact information for their customers.
I totally agree with you that customers should be told about the problem and given an option to rectify if they so wish, however, my distributor in the UK didn't even know about the problem until I contacted him about it yesterday, and pointed him to this forum. No doubt he's probably a bit miffed as well, as he will have been selling goods with a known fault.
What chance have we if Siglent aren't even telling their official distributors of the problem?
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Today I got another email:
Siglent currently offers two solutions:
It's a hardware issue.
It needs to solder a 4 pF/3.9 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V C0G (NP0) capacitor to the front-end analog circuit.
We can only offer two resolutions now:
1. Directly send the capacitor to the customer for repairing and keep the warranty for them.
2. Send the device to our hamburg office to replace the mainboard.
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Hello,
@Eurofox
We should give / share the link Siglent to get these 2 capacitors to give us the opportunity to fix the problem.
-----
The member who said that 3.9pf capacitors were easily found at the local republisher, he does not know what he says!
Even our Russian friends talk about it!
Siglent must be able to deliver these 2 capacitors, it will cost him less than to take the SDS 1202X-E "defective"!
Why Siglent does not put on the Web a Siglent site to him (where on aliexpress, Banggood, alibaba, etc. ..) where to get these famous capacitors 3.9pf NPO / CGO 500V at low price?
For now, at Mouser.com you have to pay $ 26 to get these 2 capacitors!
Russian site:
http://m.radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3217036 (http://m.radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3217036)
Regards,
Diabolo
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I just got an email from Siglent, I never contact them but they got my email address from my supplier.
I got confirmation that they will send the capacitors when they are available next month.
They fully maintain the warranty.
:-+ for Siglent.
-
Hello,
I tried my luck by mailing to my reseller and sending an email to the Shenzhen factory in China.
I'm waiting to see their answer.
Diabolo
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3.9 pF is not a rocket sience
When I was yong and no any webshops i made my own small values capacitors from twisted wire and glue
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Hello
I contacted Siglent and I must receive in December the 2 condesateurs 3.9pf COG / NPO 500V SMD1206.
Siglent replied as soon as he received my email.
I see again my judgment and I recognize that Siglent is listening to its customers and their problem.
I misjudged Siglent and I apologize to them.
As soon as I have soldered the capacitors I will have a perfect SDS1202X-E and will consider buying their SSA3021X spectrum analyzer.
Regards,
Diabolo
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The real question is how long will it be before all units available have the new board?
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^^ Tautech answered that in post #138 :
@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
Units with BB in the build code that is part of the full SN# are from HW revision to remedy the input compensation issue. At this time there has been ~3 weeks production since changes were made.
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I meant, how long until you can be SURE that any SDS1202X-E you buy WILL BE a BB model. According to Siglent, they will not be getting a (their first?) shipment in until February. So, it will be a while. I was told they could get me one by December, but they can't. I went ahead and bought a Rigol 1054 instead. (at a fantastic price) The folks at Siglent were very kind to offer me a new one, but it would take longer than I want to wait.
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I should have some new units late next week fresh from the factory and of course I'll be checking that they're late SN# units. I don't get my orders by the shipping container load so they come pretty quick airfreight.
The new SDS1104X-E 4 channel models will be with them. :)
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We will have updated SDS1202X-E available mid of next week.
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hello! Who knows where can i buy this capacitors in Russia? Maybe from ali or ebay.
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hello! Who knows where can i buy this capacitors in Russia? Maybe from ali or ebay.
Ask Siglent, they will provide them.
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Ask Siglent, they will provide them.
Thanks, I'll try
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hello! Who knows where can i buy this capacitors in Russia? Maybe from ali or ebay.
Ask Siglent, they will provide them.
Yes. They NEED be C0G (NP0) and least 500V. Do you trust ebay sellers they know what are they selling.
From Siglent you get trusted quality ceramic capacitors for this.
There is so many sellers in ebay and ali who do not know anything about what they are selling. And if you buy small amount, they do not have any trusted label what they are. Imagined case in ebay: "Oops, one 0 missing...so sorry.... is this one 0 important for you" (50V vs 500V) . Many times components are not what they tell or least it can not trust. If you buy yourself, it is best to stay with big brands with good reputation, example Vishay etc from trusted source.
So if you can wait bit, perhaps it is wise to wait Siglent.
I do not know what time Siglent EU office have these components for send to customers. I believe quite soon.
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From Siglent you get trusted quality ceramic capacitors for this.
There is so many sellers in ebay and ali who do not know anything about what they are selling. And if you buy small amount, they do not have any trusted label what they are. Imagined case in ebay: "Oops, one 0 missing...so sorry.... is this one 0 important for you" (50V vs 500V) . Many times components are not what they tell or least it can not trust. If you buy yourself, it is best to stay with big brands with good reputation, example Vishay etc from trusted source.
So if you can wait bit, perhaps it is wise to wait Siglent.
I do not know what time Siglent EU office have these components for send to customers. I believe quite soon.
I was told by Batronix to wait, as Siglent is supposed to send them replacement mainboards.
I rather prefer my fix to be done by Siglent without losing warranty. After all it's a design/manufacturer error.
But so far everything points at Siglent honoring warranty, which is good of course. Not upset about the time, I understand that there are logistics to take care of.
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I've reworked a couple of units lately, installing the caps Siglent has sent me.
Allow at least an hour to dismantle, remove the mainboard, do the rework soldering, connect for adjustments, adjust, replace front end shield covers, full reassembly and self cal.
It is NOT a five minute job.
Trimmers will likely need a couple of tweaks for each of the recommended 1.2 and 12V 10 KHz square waves to successfully trim the input compensation correctly.
Rework tips.
A 3mm chisel tip is what I've used but smaller would/could be better. There's not a lot of room on the shield side of the caps so a hoof type tip could make things tight. Sus out the best tip you have for the job before starting.
Pads have solder already on them.....leave it there.
Add liquid flux to the pads, place cap with tweezers and then pin it in place with a small screwdriver, then touch iron on one end.
More flux, then add a very little solder to the iron tip and touch the other pad.
Rotate the mainboard for best comfort as you go.
The thermal mass of pads closest to the shielding is highest so dwell a little longer to ensure a nice joint.
Clean the rework with IPA taking care not to drown the trimmers in it.
Actual rework soldering takes only a few minutes, five minutes tops.
If you're not confident with SMD work, think twice before proceeding !!!
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Ask Siglent, they will provide them.
Hmm, Siglent doesn't response on my questions. Maybe anyone know e-mail with support?
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info-eu@siglent.com
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Ask Siglent, they will provide them.
Hmm, Siglent doesn't response on my questions. Maybe anyone know e-mail with support?
Contact the Hamburg branch, they best suit your location and timezone.
http://www.siglenteu.com/lxwms.aspx?id=1110 (http://www.siglenteu.com/lxwms.aspx?id=1110)
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Ohh, great. Siglent doesn't sent the capacitors in Russia or Ukraine. Just in Europe, USA or Australia.
Maybe someone in EU can help with whis? I'll pay for that. SDS 1202x-e is the last thing that i bought from Siglent.
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I'll think this will do the job .
http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966 (http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966)
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I'll think this will do the job .
http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966 (http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966)
2 capacitors with delivery will be 25 euro.
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I'll think this will do the job .
http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966 (http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966)
SQCB7M
Is it so that M is not NP0
I think A is NPO (COG)
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@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
Units with BB in the build code that is part of the full SN# are from HW revision to remedy the input compensation issue. At this time there has been ~3 weeks production since changes were made.
Hello,
I understand that this affects units with BB in the serial number. I'm not too clear if the previous units are affected as well. I have a unit with HW Rev 00-01 (purchased Aug 2017) with serial # SDS1EBAX1Rxxxx and wondered if the issue affects me as well.
Thank you
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
Units with BB in the build code that is part of the full SN# are from HW revision to remedy the input compensation issue. At this time there has been ~3 weeks production since changes were made.
Hello,
I understand that this affects units with BB in the serial number. I'm not too clear if the previous units are affected as well. I have a unit with HW Rev 00-01 (purchased Aug 2017) with serial # SDS1EBAX1Rxxxx and wondered if the issue affects me as well.
Thank you
According to my documentation, yes. It is more noticeable in some units than others.
Carefully compensate the probes at 1V/div the switch to 2V/div and you can see how much the issue will affect your usage. Then decide if you can live with it or not. Contact your supplier or Siglent US in Ohio for a remedy if needed.
-
@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
Units with BB in the build code that is part of the full SN# are from HW revision to remedy the input compensation issue. At this time there has been ~3 weeks production since changes were made.
Hello,
I understand that this affects units with BB in the serial number. I'm not too clear if the previous units are affected as well. I have a unit with HW Rev 00-01 (purchased Aug 2017) with serial # SDS1EBAX1Rxxxx and wondered if the issue affects me as well.
Thank you
According to my documentation, yes. It is more noticeable in some units than others.
Carefully compensate the probes at 1V/div the switch to 2V/div and you can see how much the issue will affect your usage. Then decide if you can live with it or not. Contact your supplier or Siglent US in Ohio for a remedy if needed.
Thank you very much for your guidance!
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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I'll think this will do the job .
http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966 (http://ru.farnell.com/avx/sqcb7m3r9batme-500/cap-rf-hi-q-3-9pf-500v-1210/dp/1301966)
SQCB7M
Is it so that M is not NP0
I think A is NPO (COG)
A is not available on Farnell .
Mouser has COG - https://ro.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/12067A3R9CAT2A/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs0AnBnWHyRQO2a6rsPNabd23hX0c9SvCc%3d
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Dear Sir, It's trouble to directly send the capacitors to Russia.
And we don't have the official distributor on the Aliexpress.
You can ask the seller to contact with us to discuss how to deal with it.
Or you can try to search this capacitor:
1206CG4R0C500NT?FH? 1206 4pF±0.25pF 50V C0G
It's also available.
Best Regards,
Jie
from the last mail.
-
Dear Sir, It's trouble to directly send the capacitors to Russia.
And we don't have the official distributor on the Aliexpress.
You can ask the seller to contact with us to discuss how to deal with it.
Or you can try to search this capacitor:
1206CG4R0C500NT?FH? 1206 4pF±0.25pF 50V C0G
It's also available.
Best Regards,
Jie
from the last mail.
WARNING
Fatal misprint.
Correction:
1206CG4R0C500NT?FH? 1206 4pF±0.25pF 500V C0G
-
Dear Sir, It's trouble to directly send the capacitors to Russia.
And we don't have the official distributor on the Aliexpress.
You can ask the seller to contact with us to discuss how to deal with it.
Or you can try to search this capacitor:
1206CG4R0C500NT?FH? 1206 4pF±0.25pF 50V C0G
It's also available.
Best Regards,
Jie
from the last mail.
Oh my :palm:
What a mess.
Previously Siglent give list about recommended parts. Now they tell it is 50V.
Then they tell they can not send normal letter to Russia. Every person where ever in world can send letter and even post card to Russia. 2-3 small capacitors can send just in normal letter without anything else. Just like normal hello my darling letter.
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Open public letter to Siglent
Siglent!
Is it really wise to make this case unwise. Using brains is free for everyone. It do not cost anything. But making this like it is going on now may now cost lot of Siglent reputation and this is really expensive.
This kind of handling this kind of trivial simple things is total shame. You loose your faces doing it like this!
Sending normal letter, just like cheap private letter is not even difficult.
I can teach how to do it if it is not teached in chinese childrens basic school how to send normal letter. But I can tell, this can not send using WeChat or SMS. This need physical ancient paper letter what have worked last hundreds of years.
1. Go to store and buy normal A6 size letter envelope.
2. Write receiver name and address on the letter front side. Also write small size sender name and address to letter left top corner.
(and sidenote, you can send it to Russia, Ukraine, Zimbabwe, North-Korea, USA, England, New Zeland, Israel, Trinidadf, or what ever coutry, even Greenland or Rocky Mountains, to where ever. Global Postal network goes to nearly everywhere. Also you can send letter from Shenzhen to Beijing.
3. Attach the paid stamp to the top right of the letter.
4. Write small "hello my friend, our apologies" and rework and adjustment instructions paper.
5. Attach 3-4 these capacitors using adhesive tape on this paper.
- 2 for use and 1 - 2 for spare if damaged due to home made rework your made error in scope.
6. Close letter envelope.
7. Take it to the post office.
Difficult? Really?
Start it today or better if you have done it yesterday!
Please do not make simple things complicated and difficult.
Kind regards
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Then they tell they can not send normal letter to Russia. Every person where ever in world can send letter and even post card to Russia. 2-3 small capacitors can send just in normal letter without anything else. Just like normal hello my darling letter.
as we found, send usual letter to Russia or Ukraine is a huge problem for Siglent. I can pay for the shipment if for Siglent it's too expencive
I understand if need to send mainboard or power supply. But two small capacitors, which price is 0.0 It's ridiculous
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Dear Sir, It's trouble to directly send the capacitors to Russia.
And we don't have the official distributor on the Aliexpress.
You can ask the seller to contact with us to discuss how to deal with it...............
This entire affair sounds rather strange and in particular Siglents response to your request for assistance, I get the impression that they are not keen to provide warranty support on a product which was not purchased through one of their authorised agents and they wouldn't be the first company to take this stance either.
It's those shifty online dealers who are to blame when they state in the listings "3 year factory warranty", they are happy to sell the stuff but when there is a problem they wipe their hands of all responsibility, what I still don't understand is that they are able to purchase stock from somewhere and I still believe the company plays both sides, it is the recognised dealers who do provide support that get the short end.
Anyway, as rf-loop mentioned earlier it shouldn't be that big of a deal for Siglent to post out the capacitors and realistically it would do their reputation some good, Christ almighty being Christmas and all they could probably even get away with writing "gift" on the envelope as everybody else does.
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After this message, Siglent stoped responding on my questions. Great support. I can't ever thought that Siglent is a shit-company.
Once upon a time I bought a Fractal Design case for my computer. After 18 month audio jack on front panel was broke. Wrote to FD support a message, sent serial number and across couple of weeks get new front panel with jack, wires.IS FREE. It cost them about 30 Euro. Just serial number, home adress and the problem description. Doesn't matter that FD has no official distributor in Russia. From Sweden they send need part cost 30 Euro. Siglent lost the face. It's a shame.
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Hello,
Does the soldering of the 2 capacities of 3.9pf definitely solve the problem of compensation?
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Siglent may be cautious with people who commit to open the SDS, install and solder the 2 capacities of 3.9 pf.
Siglent may not want to be returned under warranty due to improper handling.
Like me, send a request to Siglent with the serial # of your SDS 1202X-E, phone number and mailing address, and there should not be a problem, I think.
And if you hurt the disassembly operation of the SDS and welding the 2 capacities of 3.9pf, Siglent will remember.
An agent Siglent USA, or Europe, or even a friendly member of this forum, etc ... could provide these 2 capabilities at a fair price.
Regards,
Diabolo
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After this message, Siglent stopped responding on my questions. Great support. I can't ever thought that Siglent is a shit-company.
Please be patient, a solution for you will be found.
Not all Siglent staff can make decisions and these things need be discussed between different departments and the factory and they are sometimes not in the same timezone.
Caps they sent me came in a FeDex pack, the cost of which I shudder to think, it would've been much cheaper in a plain envelope. I some years I have always received small items from Siglent in FeDex or DHL packaging but for the shipping of items as small and inexpensive as 2 or 3 4pF caps there need be a better/cheaper and faster way.
The longer Siglent delay sending caps by ordinary mail the greater risk of them being delayed in the normal Xmas rush of mail.
We can still all continue to use the DSO and for almost all work the compensation issue has zero effect on normal usage until good solutions are found to ship/post caps worldwide.
Does the soldering of the 2 capacities of 3.9pf definitely solve the problem of compensation?
Yes, after the input stage trimmers are adjusted exactly as the rework doc describes.
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Please be patient, a solution for you will be found.
I want be think so. But Siglent told me all that they wanted. They are not be responsible for my scope. They will slove this problem anywhere but not in Russia or Ukraine.
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Please be patient, a solution for you will be found.
I want be think so. But Siglent told me all that they wanted. They are not be responsible for my scope. They will slove this problem anywhere but not in Russia or Ukraine.
This forum in some way will ensure you get satisfaction, just continue to use the scope and there will be a solution.
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the new 1104X-e also have this issue? or it was addressed before the release?
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the new 1104X-e also have this issue? or it was addressed before the release?
No it do not have. (This capacitor what is missing from 2 channel models is in its place in 4 channel models. This difference in front end can see also in Dave's tear down video.
Also 2 channel models input specifications are bit different. 4 chan models nominal input impedance is bit different in data sheet.
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After this message, Siglent stoped responding on my questions. Great support. I can't ever thought that Siglent is a shit-company.
As an official Siglent reseller, we do not want you to draw this conclusion about a brand that builds great products, regardless where you bought the item.
Please contact me via PN, we will take care of your issue and make sure you get the capacitors delivered for free.
Regards,
Marco
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the new 1104X-e also have this issue? or it was addressed before the release?
No it do not have. (This capacitor what is missing from 2 channel models is in its place in 4 channel models. This difference in front end can see also in Dave's tear down video.
Also 2 channel models input specifications are bit different. 4 chan models nominal input impedance is bit different in data sheet.
thanks!! noticed now that I re-watched the video!!
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Hello Welectron,
I note the address of your site, and as you offer free shipping throughout Europe, it's good.
On my side I'm waiting for the 2 capacitors 3.9pf that Siglent Europe must provide me to upgrade my SDS 1204X-E.
Regards,
Diabolo
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An update on communication I received from Siglent..
I contacted Siglent USA in Ohio and was basically given the "Return unit to seller for replacement or refund" if I'm not happy with the unit. In addition, the applications engineer who responded to me stated that "there is no specification for 'probe compensation flatness' between ranges" and there will be no option for repair by Siglent USA. Unfortunately, I am beyond the return period for my unit and although this compensation problem is an issue that has been adjusted on the current production of units, be aware that you will not have any support from Siglent in Ohio to remedy this problem. Check your serial numbers and if they fall into the affected ranges, return or exchange immediately or you will be unsupported as I have found from Siglent. Sad to learn that the company does not really stand behind their products. Anyone who is considering their products should look elsewhere unless you have good support from the distributor you purchase your products from. That makes a difference.
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Thanks for the info. to bad they have that attitude, was going only to ask for the repair parts
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Thanks for the info. to bad they have that attitude, was going only to ask for the repair parts
I would still ask them for the caps if you were going to fix it yourself. Nothing to lose. Siglent may agree to send you the caps and tell you later that your so called "3 Year Warranty" is now void...
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Update #2
Siglent USA will not repair, replace, or provide parts required to address the "compensation issue". They acknowledge the issue but do not feel the "problem" is a serious one warranting any repair by them.
After several emails, I was offered a refund on my 1202X-E if I am still not satisfied with the product. That is a pretty generous return option IMHO.
This was my first encounter with Siglent and based on my recent experience, they show that they do care about their customer base.
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Siglent USA will not repair, replace, or provide parts required to address the "compensation issue". They acknowledge the issue but do not feel the "problem" is a serious one warranting any repair by them.
We don't care if our DSOs can't display a square wave as square. :palm: :)
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After this message, Siglent stoped responding on my questions. Great support. I can't ever thought that Siglent is a shit-company.
As an official Siglent reseller, we do not want you to draw this conclusion about a brand that builds great products, regardless where you bought the item.
Please contact me via PN, we will take care of your issue and make sure you get the capacitors delivered for free.
Regards,
Marco
Ok. Yesterday wrote two messages. Did You received them?
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Ok. Yesterday wrote two messages. Did You received them?
Received and replied.
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Update #2
Siglent USA will not repair, replace, or provide parts required to address the "compensation issue". They acknowledge the issue but do not feel the "problem" is a serious one warranting any repair by them.
After several emails, I was offered a refund on my 1202X-E if I am still not satisfied with the product. That is a pretty generous return option IMHO.
This was my first encounter with Siglent and based on my recent experience, they show that they do care about their customer base.
Isn't offering a refund basically the same as offering a replacement? Refund, wait until the problem is fixed in production units, buy again. Assuming you'd want to.
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Update #2
Siglent USA will not repair, replace, or provide parts required to address the "compensation issue". They acknowledge the issue but do not feel the "problem" is a serious one warranting any repair by them.
After several emails, I was offered a refund on my 1202X-E if I am still not satisfied with the product. That is a pretty generous return option IMHO.
This was my first encounter with Siglent and based on my recent experience, they show that they do care about their customer base.
Isn't offering a refund basically the same as offering a replacement? Refund, wait until the problem is fixed in production units, buy again. Assuming you'd want to.
The problem is that I am not the "original owner" of the unit, so no refund / exchange. My ex-business partner purchased the unit, we had a falling out, split our assets, and I got the scope. No other options are available to me unless they are hardware defects recognized by Siglent.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Hello,
I received the 4pf capacitors sent by Siglent Europe and I thank them for it.
I installed these 2 capacitors and the compensation is now ok.
Attention, the cable flat display is very fragile and can be cut easily, you have to be very careful when you handle it!
Siglent supplies with the capacitors an adhesive label indicating that the compensation has been corrected and which must be glued instead, or next, the warranty tape that was cut to open the SDS 1202X-E.
Problem set for me.
Regards,
Diabolo
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The problem is that I am not the "original owner" of the unit, so no refund / exchange. My ex-business partner purchased the unit, we had a falling out, split our assets, and I got the scope. No other options are available to me unless they are hardware defects recognized by Siglent.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
You said they're offering a refund after several emails, right?
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The problem is that I am not the "original owner" of the unit, so no refund / exchange. My ex-business partner purchased the unit, we had a falling out, split our assets, and I got the scope. No other options are available to me unless they are hardware defects recognized by Siglent.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
You said they're offering a refund after several emails, right?
Only with original invoice / purchaser, not me. I posted the information for others that may have purchased the unit and gone beyond the normal return / exchange period. My unit was purchased in September from Amazon (30 day return).
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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If you want to be like Fluke, I guess you have to act like Fluke...
I've had no independent contact from my official Canadian rep about this issue yet. Does Siglent have a position for contacting customers or is this being left to the rep?
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Hello,,
I live in France and I personally contacted Siglent Europe to get the capacitors.
The contact Siglent (Michael) was perfect and very professional.
As I said, if you want to install and solder the capacitors (CA-CB 105) yourself, you have to pay close attention to the very fragile flat cable feeding the display.
I had to make a small adjustment of the CV variable capabilities following the procedure described.
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_5386082212.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=5386082212.jpg)
Diabolo
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Is there any news from batronix or other european sellers about the new units? Are they willing to share the serial number of the available scopes?
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Is there any news from batronix or other european sellers about the new units? Are they willing to share the serial number of the available scopes?
The next shipment will arrive next Dec-19 at our warehouse, including SDS1202X-E from the newest batch with fixed compensation issue.
Regarding serial numbers, why would they be of interest in advance?
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Is there any news from batronix or other european sellers about the new units? Are they willing to share the serial number of the available scopes?
The next shipment will arrive next Dec-19 at our warehouse, including SDS1202X-E from the newest batch with fixed compensation issue.
Regarding serial numbers, why would they be of interest in advance?
@ tautech , do you know from what serial number off. ?
Units with BB in the build code that is part of the full SN# are from HW revision to remedy the input compensation issue. At this time there has been ~3 weeks production since changes were made.
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Is there any news from batronix or other european sellers about the new units? Are they willing to share the serial number of the available scopes?
The next shipment will arrive next Dec-19 at our warehouse, including SDS1202X-E from the newest batch with fixed compensation issue.
Regarding serial numbers, why would they be of interest in advance?
You are replying to this thread "Siglent SDS1202X-E COMPENSATION ISSUE" and you don't have a clue why people are asking for the serial number??? |O |O |O
Edited: I was wrong. Sorry.
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Units just received had BBD.
Zero input compensation issues. Perfect.
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You are replying to this thread "Siglent SDS1202X-E COMPENSATION ISSUE" and you don't have a clue why people are asking for the serial number??? |O |O |O
I think his message was "we have only good units, no need to bother with checking serial numbers".
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just received one from (honest) seller BATRONIX Germany: SDS1EBAQ1R3473
so happy, thanks a lot :--
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just received one from (honest) seller BATRONIX Germany: SDS1EBAQ1R3473
so happy, thanks a lot :--
Have you tested it ?
The fine Y amplitude adjustment each side of the relay click shows it the best/worst, as described in Reply#8 of this thread.
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I got my Siglent SDS1202X-E from Saelig today, it was shipped December the seventh, and it had the serial number: SDS1EBAQ1R3XXX :(
The thing is that I did not know of the missing capacitor in the input stage when I ordered it.
Returning it from Norway back to Saelig in the US is out of the question, so I just have to get thru the hassle of ordering capacitors, and I will have to get myself a new signal generator as well since mine will not do 12V
This was just a not so great start of this Christmas. :(
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I still think that Siglent should replace them under warranty.
But, anyway, their call. There is a serious image risk in this case. Let's say a friend borrows my scope and he notices that it's wrong. The impression can be that Siglent hardware is not reliable.
I guess they still have to learn about poor product support decisions and similar mishaps.
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+1 to that...
Any good, reputable company would fully support their product and have the simple problems fixed. Siglent designed a circuit board and decided to "cheap out" to save a few bucks and leave out a few parts. The testing group at Siglent " missed the effects of the capacitors and blessed the release of their product for sale to the public. Without admitting that it is a problem, they offered a refund that actually anyone would be able to attain by pursuing credit card disputes, consumer protection laws, etc. for a defective products. I still don't understand why Siglent would decide to ignore this manufacturing issue despite the changes they made to the current production line. This reminds me of when Apple came out with the iPhone with a defective battery or when the Macbook Pro had defective video chips. They never admitted or fixed the problem for the consumer until there were class action lawsuits filed and they lost.
In the meantime, I guess I will be ordering the recommended caps and doing the modifications myself. I'm no longer concerned about the Siglent 3 year warranty of this product since it doesn't seem to be worth a damn anyways.
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just received one from (honest) seller BATR**** Germany: SDS1EBAQ1R3473
so happy, thanks a lot :--
It's up to you choosing your buying source ;) We are one of the first EU sellers receiving the fixed version directly from the factory. Our current serial number range is SDS1EBBD1Rxxx.
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It's up to you choosing your buying source ;) We are one of the first EU sellers receiving the fixed version directly from the factory. Our current serial number range is SDS1EBBD1Rxxx.
Nevertheless the real problem is: Manufacturer sells a defective product with an alleged three year warranty. Product has a design/manufacturing error.
A serious manufacturer would:
1) Issue a recall, so that units still in the dealers' inventory are frozen and replaced so that no more defective units are sold.
2) Organize a recall process so that units in the hands of customers can be replaced/fixed.
Some will dispute wether this is a design/manufacturing error or not. I'd like to see quotes of the user manual of any oscilloscope suggesting that probe calibration must be repeated for every vertical range.
Of course I know it's largely a cosmetic issue that won't render the scope useless. But it's still a reputational problem whenever someone notices the problem and learns that the manufacturer didn't honor the warranty.
There are two kinds of manufacturers: Those who honor the warranty strictly in legal terms and only when it's not possible to avoid it, and those who understand that being more proactive can be good for their reputation.
20 years ago, for example, I had a good experience with Sony, who fixed a walkman way out of warranty for free. They opened it and it was obvious it was a defect, not user damage. They said that no matter what the warranty said, it was obviously their fault. They apologised and fixed it for free.
Law and ethics are not always coincident. And even from a purely selfish point of view, reputation is important. As someone else pointed out, a good reputation can take years to earn, and it can be lost in a second.
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Of course I know it's largely a cosmetic issue that won't render the scope useless.
I thought this means at high frequencies response significantly changes with a range... So, it's not just about "squareness of probe calibration signal". Correct me if I wrong.
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Of course I know it's largely a cosmetic issue that won't render the scope useless.
I thought this means at high frequencies response significantly changes with a range... So, it's not just about "squareness of probe calibration signal". Correct me if I wrong.
Yes, it means that the response at high frequencies changes.
But as far as I know the worst damage is done to the trust you can put on the instrument. In many cases it won't have a dramatic effect. But once you know there is an issue you will be extra paranoid when using it.
Instrumentation is a matter of trust. Electronic instruments are supposed to help us make informed decisions. Fuzzy or blatantly incorrect information doesn't help anyone.
Frankly, the response to an issue like this says a lot about the trustworthiness of a manufacturer. I own both a Rigol DS1000Z and a Siglent SDS1202X-E. So far, I think Siglent had done a better job than Rigol in many key aspects. I especially dislike the opaque way in which Rigol applies interpolation even in dot mode. But Siglent's choice not to respond adequately to this issue is a show stopper for me.
I know there will be some "macho" style comments like "well, dude, fix it yourself" but as I pointed out above, instruments are a matter of trust. You are paying someone not just for a piece of hardware, but for a full chain of hardware, software, quality control and calibration. If you fix it yourself you break that chain.
It's your choice of course, but I still think it's not very wise on Siglent's part.
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AvE addresses the problem with something like this correctly. His take is that you're trying to solve a problem, which means your cognitive load is already high. You don't need a worry about your instrument lying to you added to that. It needs to be dependable for it to be useful for troubleshooting, development and repair.
You can't be a serious test equipment manufacturer if people can't depend on the results the equipment produces. At that point it's just a toy. TE is all about the trust you can have in the device.
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Hello,
Siglent corrected for several weeks the problem of compensation with the new BB series. I admit that Siglent factory has made a mistake with this problem of compensation, it is a fact acquired.
If a reseller sells the BQ series without having corrected the compensation itself, or returned the SDS1202X-E to Siglent under warranty, it is the reseller who is not honest when selling a non-compliant SDS.
Siglent Europe (Hamburg) was very nice and correct with me by sending 4 capacitors and a new warranty label on request from me.
European customers can make the same request as me by providing the serial number of their SDS1202X-E, address and phone number and valid Email.
I remember that the flat and flexible cable feeding the screen is super fragile.
Diabolo
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This is the Email I sent to:" esales@saelig.com " and "support@saelig.com", and I have not received any reply or response whatsoever:
"As I have been aware of this oscilloscope has two missing capacitors in the input section my serial number is: SDS1EBAQ1R3XXX.
I find that this has been a known problem for a long time, I find it rather of a lower standard to ship these oscilloscopes out to customers without having them being corrected in the first place.
For me the cost and problems related to customs, I find myself now stranded with a problem I cannot easily get out of.
How can you help me out of this problem?
With regards
My Name"
I will wait to set any "judgement" on www.saelig.com (http://www.saelig.com), but so far I can say I have a rather low respect for any firm, may it be a producer or reseller, that does not correct or respond to a common known fault.
Well that comes to show that morals can be low when it comes to sales.
Please put a notice on the "Saelig discount code thread"
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This is the Email I sent to:" esales@saelig.com " and "support@saelig.com", and I have not received any reply or response whatsoever:
"As I have been aware of this oscilloscope has two missing capacitors in the input section my serial number is: SDS1EBAQ1R3775.
I find that this has been a known problem for a long time, I find it rather of a lower standard to ship these oscilloscopes out to customers without having them being corrected in the first place.
A bit over 2 months is NOT a long time. I reported it to Siglent 16 Oct.
Ten days later they sent me the Rework instructions and at that time they had already introduced the changes necessary into their production.
For me the cost and problems related to customs, I find myself now stranded with a problem I cannot easily get out of.
How can you help me out of this problem?
With regards
My Name"
I'm surprised given your location you didn't source one from a local dealer. :-//
I will wait to set any "judgement" on www.saelig.com (http://www.saelig.com), but so far I can say I have a rather low respect for any firm, may it be a producer or reseller, that does not correct or respond to a common known fault.
Well that comes to show that morals can be low when it comes to sales.
Please put a notice on the "Saelig discount code thread"
I have never been formally notified there was a 'known fault' with input compensation for the 1202X-E and I strongly suspect Saelig wasn't either. As Saelig is supplied from Siglent in Ohio and they'd most likely source stock by sea freight stock so by then stock would already be some weeks old before Saelig received them.
Don't drag Saelig into this as it's likely they weren't aware of any issues and sold it to you in good faith.
Your gripe is with Siglent and their branch in Hamburg will find some remedy for you. What their policy is I'm not exactly sure, but contact them anyway through their EU email.
There is mention earlier in this thread of how they might deal with this matter but with Xmas looming upon us you'll probably have to wait until they return from hols.
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just received one from (honest) seller BATR**** Germany: SDS1EBAQ1R3473
so happy, thanks a lot :--
It's up to you choosing your buying source ;) We are one of the first EU sellers receiving the fixed version directly from the factory. Our current serial number range is SDS1EBBD1Rxxx.
What is the chance if i order from you now one unit that it will be with the new serial number?
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This is the Email I sent to:" esales@saelig.com " and "support@saelig.com", and I have not received any reply or response whatsoever:
"As I have been aware of this oscilloscope has two missing capacitors in the input section my serial number is: SDS1EBAQ1R3XXX.
I find that this has been a known problem for a long time, I find it rather of a lower standard to ship these oscilloscopes out to customers without having them being corrected in the first place.
For me the cost and problems related to customs, I find myself now stranded with a problem I cannot easily get out of.
How can you help me out of this problem?
With regards
My Name"
I will wait to set any "judgement" on www.saelig.com (http://www.saelig.com), but so far I can say I have a rather low respect for any firm, may it be a producer or reseller, that does not correct or respond to a common known fault.
Well that comes to show that morals can be low when it comes to sales.
Please put a notice on the "Saelig discount code thread"
Since Saelig was closed for Christmas until today we are looking into your issue. 12/22 was the first we became aware that this existed for any of the SDS customers. We will be in contact with you via email as we have information.
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I purchased thru Saelig also. Hope they resolve this.
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What is the chance if i order from you now one unit that it will be with the new serial number?
100% ;) Make sure to leave a note during checkout.
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Just bought and received the SDS1202X-E from Amazon as the seller here in the US. SN is SDS1EBBD1RXXXX.... If I'm reading this right, there should be no probe calibration issue with the aforementioned SN format? Correct? I've been trying to calibrate mine without success, so I'm hoping it's just user error since I'm a little new to this. Thanks.
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Just bought and received the SDS1202X-E from Amazon as the seller here in the US. SN is SDS1EBBD1RXXXX.... If I'm reading this right, there should be no probe calibration issue with the aforementioned SN format? Correct? I've been trying to calibrate mine without success, so I'm hoping it's just user error since I'm a little new to this. Thanks.
Make sure to have the probes set to 10X
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Thanks, I was able to calibrate. A combination of the 10X + adjusting the trimpot on the probe did the trick.
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Thanks, I was able to calibrate. A combination of the 10X + adjusting the trimpot on the probe did the trick.
Just a heads up.
You're using the wrong terminology; you compensate a probe in 10x mode and you calibrate equipment.
The SDS1202X-E has an internal 'Self Cal' that should be run from time to time after the prescribed warm up time and after firmware updates.
Yes, your SN# indicates it's been made since the end of October 17 when this issue was corrected in production.
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Hello, guys. Yesterday i've soldered a couple capacitors to oscilloscope. 2nd channel works perfect, but first channel is not very good. On 20v/div - i see overcompensation and this is not correcting with trimmer capacitors. Manuals https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=364110 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=364110) is not true. First capacitor trim just 2v/div and above. Second capacitor trim only on 20v/div.
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Hello, guys. Yesterday i've soldered a couple capacitors to oscilloscope. 2nd channel works perfect, but first channel is not very good. On 20v/div - i see overcompensation and this is not correcting with trimmer capacitors. Manuals https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=364110 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=364110) is not true. First capacitor trim just 2v/div and above. Second capacitor trim only on 20v/div.
The rework instructions call for square wave signals, only @ 1.2V and 12V both @ 10 KHz.
Did you provide them ?
The connection from your signal source should only be with BNC cable connection and the trimmers adjusted in the correct sequence and then double checked with each level of input.
Be sure you have the channel inputs set to 1x.
One pad for the caps is on a ground plane and as such requires more heat to get solder to reflow. A quick check with magnification for a good joint is a good idea and you can also check for a good joint with a continuity meter.
This pad to ground is a little harder to get soldered, I solder to other first then rotate the PCB to get a good angle for the iron to get the best possible joint to the ground plane.
Edit
Any flux residue will affect the end result. Be very sure to clean very carefully.
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I tried to do how in manual wrote. First trimmer cap is work on 2v/div and higher. Under that both trim caps is useles. On 200mv/div as wrote in manual - trimmers are useless. Second trimmer(number from manual) works only on 20v/div
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I tried to do how in manual wrote. First trimmer cap is work on 2v/div and higher. Under that both trim caps is useles. On 200mv/div as wrote in manual - trimmers are useless. Second trimmer(number from manual) works only on 20v/div
Of course you use oscilloscope probe multiplier 1x. With 1x setting voltages are what they are in oscilloscope BNC input connector.
Of course in instructions they use these "true" input levels. And also for this purpose you need 10kHz square (1.2Vpp with 200mV/div input (on the display 6 division) and then for adjust other trimmer using 2V/div and 12Vpp 10kHz square, (also 6 div p-p). These compensations need do perfectly and exactly and of course only with these two vertical voltage settings. Do not adjust with other settings. These adjustments affect also self calibration and if these settings are wrong then after selfcal all is wrong. Because selfcal signal is injected internally to point what is before these attenuators what (LF)frequency response is adjusted with these trimmers.
Simple rule. Do not adjust until you really know they need adjust.
How you connect this 10kHz square to oscilloscope input? (it is not explained in instructions)
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allright, guys. Made a recalibration with 1x. 1st channel still overcompensated on 2v/div(20v/div old calibration), 2nd channel still perfect.
in attachment result with 1x probe and 1kHz signal. I think that cap wich is parallel to trimmer cap 2(as in manual) is too small. Who knows wich type of caps using there?
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allright, guys. Made a recalibration with 1x. 1st channel still overcompensated on 2v/div(20v/div old calibration), 2nd channel still perfect.
in attachment result with 1x probe and 1kHz signal. I think that cap wich is parallel to trimmer cap 2(as in manual) is too small. Who knows wich type of caps using there?
I very strongly suspect you have made an error with the adjustment procedure.
Please study the instructions again and follow them exactly along with additional tips I have provided.
Your 10 KHz signal source for the adjustments is fed with BNC cable only and the 1 KHz probe cal signal and probes are NOT used for the adjustment procedure.
This is very important, use an external 10 KHz source and BNC cable.
Previous to addition of the correction caps the uncompensation will only show using a 10x probe while stepping over/under the 1.2V threshold were an input relay switches between input ranges.
1.2V is selected as the max attenuation in that range and likewise with 12V to give a full display signal on order to make the adjustment easier to complete. Using a faster timebase helps too with several divisions visible for the peak of the square wave to be adjusted to a perfectly flat top.
Of the few I have reworked maybe only two have needed further cleaning to remove ALL flux residue before the adjustments could provide perfect results.
With care and following the instructions perfect results are to be expected.
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allright, guys. Made a recalibration with 1x. 1st channel still overcompensated on 2v/div(20v/div old calibration), 2nd channel still perfect.
in attachment result with 1x probe and 1kHz signal. I think that cap wich is parallel to trimmer cap 2(as in manual) is too small. Who knows wich type of caps using there?
May I ask why you mess with this oscilloscope probe factor. This have nothing to do here. When you are doing this front end internal adjustments do not mess with probe factor at all. (do not also mix it with probe head 1x/10x switch - this is other thing.
If you set oscilloscope 10x and set vertical adjustemnt to 20V/div it is exactly same as you set oscilloscope for 1x and and vertical setting 2V/div. Only what change is oscilloscope voltage level number.
For adjust oscilloscope attenuators LF compensation trimmers just follow instructions. Set oscilloscope probe factor for 1x and keep it.
Connect coaxial cable from signal generator output BNC directly to oscilloscope input BNC (in this case we do not need input normalizer). Also if your signal generator produce very fast square wave edges then need take care about ringing, but if it is typical slow edge "10-20MHz grade" function generator no need extra care - this is not rocket science).
Select 200mV/div. Set signal generator for 1.2V p-p square wave and frequency 10kHz. After then adjust trimmer (look instructions what trimmer) for perfect flat top and bottom, exactly. After then adjust signal generator level for 12Vp-p square and same frequency. Set Vertical level for 2V/div. Now adjust this other trimmer for perfect flat bottom and top square. Exactly. Then check these both again and do some fine adjust if need. Iterate so many times result is perfect. After then same for other channel.
After then do self calibration and nothing connected to input BNC's.
After then if you use probes and example use oscilloscope 1kHz probe calibration signal. Set probe to 10x and oscilloscope probe setting also to 10x. In this point you adjust only probe head compensation trimmer for as perfect flat square as you can (it drift very easy!). And in this point if you are not satisfied this square wave do not touch oscilloscope internal adjustments for correction. Probe is probe and these are cheap not high class probes) If you now touch these you do whole procedure again starting from scratch.
Oscilloscope internal front end attenuators adjustment trimmers must not adjust using probes! As tautech told, here need use coaxial cable from signal generator output BNC to oscilloscope input BNC.
(this model) Oscilloscope analog front end have three voltage ranges and two of these have own attenuator circuit (I use here only thes big 1-2-5 steps for simplify) And of course these numbers are when oscilloscope input is set for 1X
1. 500uV - 100mV/div (there is no attenuator what need adjust)
2. 200mV - 1V/div (this range have attenuator what have also LF compensation trimmer)
3. 2V - 10V/div (this range have attenuator what have also LF compensation trimmer)
If you use other input multiplier of course these numbers are different (this multiplier affect only to displayed numbers and nothing else.
Input multiplier is just for show right numbers. 1x multiplier and 2V/div and 10x multiplier and 20V/div is exactly same circuit inside oscilloscope without any kind of change. Only display number change.
If you set probe attenuation for 10x it meand that probe divide your voltage from probe tip to oscilloscope input 10:1
This is why you need set oscilloscope so that it multiply numbers 10x for show right voltage.
Voltage levels in instruction is levels in oscilloscope input BNC.
In case you use right adjustment methods ( signal generator with good flat top and bottom square wave and right adjustment procedure and can not still adjust square wave enough perfect then perhaps your capacitors (what you have soldered) are not ok or you have damaged some other things there. But first, try adjustment with right procedure
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Some little guidance pictures for those making adjustments after rework.
From my demo unit, a very early SN#.
My first rework and not near perfect.
Cold unit , powered just for these screenshots.
Signal source SDG1032X, BNC connection (1x).
1.2V p-p, 10 KHz and scope settings to adjust trimmer #1
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384037)
12V p-p, 10 KHz and scope settings to adjust trimmer #2
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384039)
12V p-p 10 KHz 10:1 probe result
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384041)
NOTE
These are to show expected images with the correct inputs and how it might look using a 10x probe if the adjustments are not correct..... and nothing more.
This unit needs further adjustments.
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Gyus, english is not my native language. Translate google.com - is not a good idea. I did everything right. On picture, that i've posted - just a sample to explain difference between first channel and second. Second channel has perfect compensation, but first channel has overcompensation on 2v/div with 1x probe(or 20v/div with 10x probe). I think that parallel cap to cap2(as in manual) has too small capacitance. Capacitance of trimmer cap2(as in manual) not enough to ajustment overcompensation.
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I don’t know exactly how the input attenuators and its compensation networks look like, but in case of an overcompensation I would expect that the capacitance value of compensation trimmer is too high, not too low.
So my guess would be that if you are actually unable to compensate the attenuator for the 2V (x1) range, the trimmer might be damaged or some other capacitor in the compensation network for this attenuator is broken or missing.
Maybe you could post a high resolution photograph of the input section (where the trimmer capacitors are) so we can make further guesses…
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Gyus, english is not my native language. Translate google.com - is not a good idea. I did everything right. On picture, that i've posted - just a sample to explain difference between first channel and second. Second channel has perfect compensation, but first channel has overcompensation on 2v/div with 1x probe(or 20v/div with 10x probe). I think that parallel cap to cap2(as in manual) has too small capacitance. Capacitance of trimmer cap2(as in manual) not enough to ajustment overcompensation.
Yes we understand there are some small language problems.
I keep asking about your connection type to signal source as it must be a BNC cable not probe.
I look back through your posts and you do not make it clear that a BNC cable was used.
Please confirm you used BNC cable.
On one scope I corrected no adjustment was necessary for one channel as just the addition of the cap corrected the non-compensation. Usually any adjustment if needed is quite small.
If you are having trouble with one channel please check your work is very clean and the solder joint is good and there is no rework contamination of the surrounding area (flux residue or solder balls).
Good magnification and good light is necessary for careful inspection.
Did Welectron send you the caps ?
Did he get them from Siglent ?
I don’t know exactly how the input attenuators and its compensation networks look like, but in case of an overcompensation I would expect that the capacitance value of compensation trimmer is too high, not too low.
So my guess would be that if you are actually unable to compensate the attenuator for the 2V (x1) range, the trimmer might be damaged or some other capacitor in the compensation network for this attenuator is broken or missing.
Maybe you could post a high resolution photograph of the input section (where the trimmer capacitors are) so we can make further guesses…
Here's the URL to Daves teardown stopped at 17.21 for a closeup of one of the inputs:
https://youtu.be/slBXLf4YKtA?t=1041
Just to the right of the trimmers is CB105, the position missing the cap for ch1.
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Okay, looks like I am wrong. The compensation trimmer is connected to ground obviously, so its capacitance would be actually too low in case of an overcompensation …
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I keep asking about your connection type to signal source as it must be a BNC cable not probe.
I look back through your posts and you do not make it clear that a BNC cable was used.
Please confirm you used BNC cable.
On one scope I corrected no adjustment was necessary for one channel as just the addition of the cap corrected the non-compensation. Usually any adjustment if needed is quite small.
If you are having trouble with one channel please check your work is very clean and the solder joint is good and there is no rework contamination of the surrounding area (flux residue or solder balls).
Good magnification and good light is necessary for careful inspection.
Did Welectron send you the caps ?
Did he get them from Siglent ?
Just to the right of the trimmers is CB105, the position missing the cap for ch1.
Yes, connected through the BNC cable when i've trimmed second time. Nothing is changed.
CB105 is missing(in 1st channel), You're right. In second channel this cap is present. That's the problem. Do You know what type of cap must be there?
Got this caps from China. Maybe from Siglent. There is no signature on mail and Siglent nothing told me about that
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Yes, connected through the BNC cable when i've trimmed second time. Nothing is changed.
CB105 is missing(in 1st channel), You're right. In second channel this cap is present. That's the problem. Do You know what type of cap must be there?
Got this caps from China. Maybe from Siglent. There is no signature on mail and Siglent nothing told me about that
Did you receive two caps ?
One for each channel to be installed at position C*105 ? (CA105 and CB105)
The cap spec from earlier in this thread:
From reply #57:
4 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V rated C0G (NP0)
There are five types listed that Siglent recommends in the rework instructions in reply #57.
From reply #84:
First, PCB is made for 1206 size. There do not need thinking if this or that is ok. Ok is 1206. Period.
Tolerance is specified. Named Vishay capacxitors have +/- 0.25pF tolerance.
Voltage. Specified. As can read named Vishay capacitors have 500V (CXLT) or 630V (CXET)
Recommended Vishay parts
VJ 1206 A 3R9 CXL... size 1206, C0G (NP0), 3.9pF, +0.25pF, Ni barrier Tin coat, 500V (this is mandatory minimum without exeptions)
VJ 1206 A 3R9 CXE... size 1206, C0G (NP0), 3.9pF, +0.25pF, Ni barrier Tin coat, 630V
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Yes, recieve 4 caps. I asked about caps near (and parallel) trim caps 0603. Not 1206. In first channel one of the cap is missing. Not soldered. In second channel this cap is present. CB115 if i remember right (rounded black in attachment)
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Yes, recieve 4 caps. I asked about caps near (and parallel) trim caps 0603. Not 1206. In first channel one of the cap is missing. Not soldered. In second channel this cap is present. CB115 if i remember right (rounded black in attachment)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384111)
That is bad, I do not know why it is missing.
Here's a better pic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=360433;image)
We need someone to measure it so you can refit it. 0603 next to VC4 trimmer, right ?
I will readjust my demo unit to get it right and measure it for you, but not tonight as it's already nearly 11pm.
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That is bad, I do not know why it is missing.
Here's a better pic:
We need someone to measure it so you can refit it. 0603 next to VC4 trimmer, right ?
I will readjust my demo unit to get it right and measure it for you, but not tonight as it's already nearly 11pm.
I can pick up the value, but I need to know the type of capacitor. NGO or COG
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I can pick up the value, but I need to know the type of capacitor. NGO or COG
It has to be NP0 or C0G, these are the same.
More important would be the voltage rating, but I'd say anything should be fine since it has to be at the output of the 2nd attenuator and the voltage there cannot exceed 4V with a 400V input. So 50V should be fine.
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I can pick up the value, but I need to know the type of capacitor. NGO or COG
It has to be NP0 or C0G, these are the same.
More important would be the voltage rating, but I'd say anything should be fine since it has to be at the output of the 2nd attenuator and the voltage there cannot exceed 4V with a 400V input. So 50V should be fine.
Yes, being 0603 size it will not likely be more than 50V rated.
We can check on this but we will not have an answer for maybe 24hrs.
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Yes, being 0603 size it will not likely be more than 50V rated.
We can check on this but we will not have an answer for maybe 24hrs.
OK, it does not burn to me. I'll be wait.
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Yes, being 0603 size it will not likely be more than 50V rated.
We can check on this but we will not have an answer for maybe 24hrs.
OK, it does not burn to me. I'll be wait.
Email requesting the cap spec sent to Siglent. Now we wait.
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Email requesting the cap spec sent to Siglent. Now we wait.
Thanks a lot!
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I keep asking about your connection type to signal source as it must be a BNC cable not probe.
I look back through your posts and you do not make it clear that a BNC cable was used.
Please confirm you used BNC cable.
On one scope I corrected no adjustment was necessary for one channel as just the addition of the cap corrected the non-compensation. Usually any adjustment if needed is quite small.
If you are having trouble with one channel please check your work is very clean and the solder joint is good and there is no rework contamination of the surrounding area (flux residue or solder balls).
Good magnification and good light is necessary for careful inspection.
Did Welectron send you the caps ?
Did he get them from Siglent ?
Just to the right of the trimmers is CB105, the position missing the cap for ch1.
Yes, connected through the BNC cable when i've trimmed second time. Nothing is changed.
CB105 is missing(in 1st channel), You're right. In second channel this cap is present. That's the problem. Do You know what type of cap must be there?
Got this caps from China. Maybe from Siglent. There is no signature on mail and Siglent nothing told me about that
Do this "caps" mean that you get one capacitor or two capacitors?
If you get only one, who hell have made this work for sending this without brain.
So, first you tell that you can not get good result after rework but now you tell that capacitor CA105 is still missing. What a mess.
Capacitor type(s) (and many other things) is also told in this thread many times. Is it so that you first do and after then think and read. This is wrong order.
Also this Siglent rework instruction tell recommended capacitors. You have not read it?
Also example here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1335539/#msg1335539 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1335539/#msg1335539)
and in Siglent rework instructions:
Solder a 4 pF/3.9 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V C0G (NP0) capacitor on the red circle position in Figure 1 in each channel.
Recommended part #:
1206CG4R0C501NT?fenghua?
1206CG3R9C501NT?fenghua?
CC1206CRNPOBBN3R9 (yageo)
VJ1206A3R9CXLT (vishay)
VJ1206A3R9CXET (vishay)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384116;image)
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@ rf-loop
See reply #247 and png.
C*115 is missing. We do not know why.
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Do this "caps" mean that you get one capacitor or two capacitors?
If you get only one, who hell have made this work for sending this without brain.
So, first you tell that you can not get good result after rework but now you tell that capacitor CA105 is still missing. What a mess.
Capacitor type(s) (and many other things) is also told in this thread many times. Is it so that you first do and after then think and read. This is wrong order.
Also this Siglent rework instruction tell recommended capacitors. You have not read it?
Also example here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1335539/#msg1335539 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1335539/#msg1335539)
and in Siglent rework instructions:
Solder a 4 pF/3.9 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V C0G (NP0) capacitor on the red circle position in Figure 1 in each channel.
Recommended part #:
1206CG4R0C501NT?fenghua?
1206CG3R9C501NT?fenghua?
CC1206CRNPOBBN3R9 (yageo)
VJ1206A3R9CXLT (vishay)
VJ1206A3R9CXET (vishay)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384116;image)
Sorry i was wrong. Not CA105, CA115 is missing in first channel.
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@ rf-loop
See reply #247 and png.
C*115 is missing. We do not know why.
OMG. Now I see this. How this is possible and how this have passed in quality control and factory calibration. Missing is not very extremely strange but how this scope pass factory control and calibration.
|O
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Email requesting the cap spec sent to Siglent. Now we wait.
Thanks a lot!
VC3 and VC4 have ~30 pF adjustment range and with C*115 in parallel I measure ~18-48 pF.
My SMD tweezers checked against the 4 pF caps Siglent sent me reads ~4 pF high.
So my best guess for C*115 value is 12-18 pF with seemingly enough adjustment in VC3 and VC4 to cover any of my measurement errors but no allowance for minimum VC* value.
So 12-18 pF will be max value for C*115.
C*115 removal and retest will the only way to get a closer value.
No reply from Siglent yet.
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Email requesting the cap spec sent to Siglent. Now we wait.
Thanks a lot!
VC3 and VC4 have ~30 pF adjustment range and with C*115 in parallel I measure ~18-48 pF.
My SMD tweezers checked against the 4 pF caps Siglent sent me reads ~4 pF high.
So my best guess for C*115 value is 12-18 pF with seemingly enough adjustment in VC3 and VC4 to cover any of my measurement errors but no allowance for minimum VC* value.
So 12-18 pF will be max value for C*115.
C*115 removal and retest will the only way to get a closer value.
No reply from Siglent yet.
Thank You! What You think about voltage? 50V caps will enough?
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Email requesting the cap spec sent to Siglent. Now we wait.
Thanks a lot!
VC3 and VC4 have ~30 pF adjustment range and with C*115 in parallel I measure ~18-48 pF.
My SMD tweezers checked against the 4 pF caps Siglent sent me reads ~4 pF high.
So my best guess for C*115 value is 12-18 pF with seemingly enough adjustment in VC3 and VC4 to cover any of my measurement errors but no allowance for minimum VC* value.
So 12-18 pF will be max value for C*115.
C*115 removal and retest will the only way to get a closer value.
No reply from Siglent yet.
Thank You! What You think about voltage? 50V caps will enough?
I think it will be like Performa01 said but a quick look for 0603 COG (NPO) shows many are rated @ 100V.
https://nz.rs-online.com/web/c/passive-components/capacitors/ceramic-multilayer-capacitors/?applied-dimensions=4294789462,4292094733,4294519026
To be more confident that a cap will meet spec I would use 100V NPO. You can easy try some test to see the voltage across the cap with a 1x input and a DC supply and step through V/div. Take care not to create a short while making this measurement. Be sure to add a good safety factor when selecting the cap voltage.
Good luck.
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I think that is all done.
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I think that is all done.
I would hope for much much better.
I have just finished reassembling the unit I posted screenshots from yesterday, it is just warming up before a Self Cal and after I will post some screenshots in ~30 mins.
Stand by.
BTW, what value did you install for C*115 ?
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Installed 22pf 50V. - only that i found in my table. I think 20pf will be better. I've made an order in shop 20pf 100V NPO. Through couple weeks it will arrive and i replace it
in attachment - after 40min warming.
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The flat top is good but the top of the rising edge can be much better.
These screenshots are the 1.2 and 1.22V/div either side of the relay switching between ranges where the compensation issue is most visible to users.
Probe Cal output, 10x probe
1.2V/div
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384410)
1.22V/div
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=384412)
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10x probe 1kHz.
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Thanks to Siglent for this:
The specification of capacitance is 0603 8pF +0.25pF 50V C0G for C*115
:-+
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Thank Siglent for this:
The specification of capacitance is 0603 8pF +0.25pF 50V C0G for C*115
:-+
well, it's parallel to trimmer cap. His capacitance is enough for trimming. 22pF in my case is good too. Now looking for 0603 8pf - in our shops - i can buy them not lower than 12000pcs. Price for them - half price of oscilloscope. I'll replace on 20pf. It will be good.
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Just received my scope from welectron. Im very satisfied with their service, contacted them to request the BB serial number model and they happily helped. The scope itself has no problem with compensation as expected.
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I ordered this scope when it first released. I'm glad I looked around online, cause I thought I was crazy. I've sent siglent an email requesting the caps now.
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Greetings !!!!!!
So all in all, the bug has been eliminated ? :horse:
Any comparison with pics before and after ?
All units are shipped out with this upgrade in place ? :-//
Regards, Akos
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Greetings !!!!!!
So all in all, the bug has been eliminated ? :horse:
Any comparison with pics before and after ?
All units are shipped out with this upgrade in place ? :-//
See reply #138.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1348538/#msg1348538 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1348538/#msg1348538)
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:-+ :-+
Copy that !
Hopefully it got implemented already to EU stocks... so when I order one here it will come revised.
\$\Omega\$ \$\Omega\$
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Hopefully it got implemented already to EU stocks... so when I order one here it will come revised.
This depends on the seller and how old his stock is. The goods units are shipping from Siglent since several weeks, but it takes time until warehouse stock has cleared.
We have the fixed version on stock, be sure to leave us a message during checkout.
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This depends on the seller and how old his stock is. The goods units are shipping from Siglent since several weeks, but it takes time until warehouse stock has cleared.
Interesting. So, faulty units are still for sale despite the problem?
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Hopefully it got implemented already to EU stocks... so when I order one here it will come revised.
This depends on the seller and how old his stock is. The goods units are shipping from Siglent since several weeks, but it takes time until warehouse stock has cleared.
We have the fixed version on stock, be sure to leave us a message during checkout.
Why buyers need to leave you a message during checkout to remind you not to ship a faulty unit? And if the buyer is not aware of the issue, you will ship the old bad unit??? :palm:
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I respect Mr Tautech!
Is my device purchased on 2018.01.18 the wrong serial number?
FPGA Version: 2017.06.22
Hardware Version: 0c-01
Serial NO: SDS1EBBD1R6439.
Sorry Google translator !
Sincerely, Feri
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does someone know whether the units bought currently from Amazon include the caps ?
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:-+ :-+
I has BB in the serial so it should be with the added Fix already ....
\$\Omega\$ \$\Omega\$
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I bought it from amazon us. not sure you did that if you are from hungary :-//
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Will try to get it from Poland (can be cheaper) >:D >:D
::)
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just received my unit.
bad news :
Serial number : SDS1EBAQ xxxxx
This is not the corrected version as far as I understood.
too bad.
FYI, it was bought from Amazon.com
Unfortunately, I'll leave the US tomorrow to get back to france. I won't ship it back to amazon.
Another issue I juste noticed : the baseline shows an offset of 0.7 mV. The unit has been running for 15 minutes and the offset is still there.
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Hello,
Heating the unit and doing a "self calibration" should solve the offset problem.
The test is to be done.
Does the unit have the latest firmware?
Diabolo
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I can't check the firmware version right now.
After 1 hour , the offset reduced to 0.35 mV.
I did a self cal 15 min after the 1st boot of the scope.
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self cal re-done. offset reduced to 0.2 mV. At least, now I have the same offset on both channels. ::)
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I respect Mr Tautech!
Is my device purchased on 2018.01.18 the wrong serial number?
FPGA Version: 2017.06.22
Hardware Version: 0c-01
Serial NO: SDS1EBBD1R6439.
Sorry Google translator !
Sincerely, Feri
Welcome to the forum Feri.
BBD SN# will be OK.
For those that want/need to check:
Set probe and channel input attenuation to 10x.
Connect to probe cal output at 1V/div and compensate probe.(at only 10x setting)
Use 'Fine' V/div and adjust to 1.22V/div.....no change in the waveform shape should be detectable.
1.2-1.22V/div is the step where the issue created by the missing cap is seen.
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Dear Tautech!
Thank you for your answer!
Sincerely, Feri
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Just received my scope from welectron. Im very satisfied with their service, contacted them to request the BB serial number model and they happily helped. The scope itself has no problem with compensation as expected.
Same here. Received BB scope from welectron last week. BTW, really nice device, friendly interface, easy to use.
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Hello,
Does Welectron still give the 5% discount for members of the Eevblog forum?
Diabolo
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Does Welectron still give the 5% discount for members of the Eevblog forum?
Yes. Anyway, you can try it by welectron web site without buying (checkout), that there is free shipping and 5% discount included.
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Ok.
Thanks.
Diabolo
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Hi guys, I'm still alive!
My SDS1202X-E suffers from this problem - I just contacted the service department in Ohio (message form on their web site) asking what I need to do to return unit to them for a replacement motherboard. I live in Michigan so the farthest away it could be is 250 miles - so speed and cost of shipping should not be too much. I do have the tools/skills to repair myself but it would take up too much of my time and raise questions on warranty.
I'll let you know how I get on.
PS, I have been using the scope regularly and I'm generally happy with the performance.
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I didn't think Siglent was willing to do anything about the compensation problem for USA customers.
My understanding was that they will send you the caps for self repair.
Keep us informed on this, because if they will do a warranty return-repair, I would like to know.
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Hello,
Not all buyers send you their SDS1202X-E, few are aware of the problem.
I installed the new firmware, everything is ok.
Regards,
Diabolo
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Dave,
Seems you're right, I was offered the capacitors (see email below).
I'm inclined to write back and accept the Caps - I am in a position to fix this myself but the time taken will be annoying. The consumer protection regulations in the USA are pathetic. OTOH, this is clearly a faulty build and they should do better than this, if Ford missed parts off your vehicle which affected its performance, would you be happy with "we'll send you the parts to fit yourself but if you mess it up, you'll void your warranty"?
This is disappointing Siglent.
email from Siglent ====================================
Hi Ted,
My name is Scott Rocco and I am an Applications Engineer at Siglent Technologies North America. Thank you for writing in. We are familiar with the probe compensation issue. All of the SDS1000X-E products are in specification. There is no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges. When you change ranges, the physical circuit is altered and the design/part tolerances dictate the performance. The probe compensation can be adjusted to minimize the effect.
Your serial number SDS1EBAX1RXXXX has a very slight dip in the beginning portion of the flat top of low frequency square waves (similar to the probe compensation signal). We are willing to send you 2 capacitors with instructions to make the changes yourself.
If we send you the capacitors we are authorizing you to open the scope and solder 2 capacitors in place on the mainboard. This authorization puts the full responsibility for the update on you the customer. If you damage the mainboard while soldering or something else happens electrostatically while you are doing the update due to misuse the warranty will be voided. Our warranty at Siglent Technologies America is 3 years on parts and labor unless product is damaged due to misuse.
If you have any other questions you can let me know.
Regards,
Scott
Applications Engineer
SIGLENT Technologies America, Inc
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email to Siglent USA....
Scott,
Thanks for the email.
I think it's unreasonable for Siglent to claim that it's somehow OK to have to re-compensate the probe when changing from one Y range to another - e.g. changing from 1 volt to 2 volts per division because there is "no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges"; I own several scopes and this is the only one that has that 'feature'. The de-facto performance for all scopes I've ever used is to set the probe compensation up using the provided calibration signal and then be able to adjust the other X or Y controls without any need to perform probe compensation again. It's like Ford claiming that it's reasonable that I have to re-tune my car engine every time I shift gear because the specification for my car doesn't say that I can expect the engine to run properly after a gear shift because a gear shift alters the physical way that the engine is connected to the wheels and load on the engine has changed.
The right thing to do would be to repair my 8-month old product for free; in Europe, I believe that it what Siglent are doing.
If you are unwilling or unable to offer a free return and repair, then I will take you up on the offer of the capacitors and instructions. My address is:
nnnn xxxxx yyyyy
zzzz hhh 12345
Sincerely,
Ted
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Hello,
In Europe, I also had to solder these capacitors myself.
Siglent sent me some capacitors and warranty sticker in a fast way.
As far as I know, they only sent capacitors to everyone who requested, but Siglent itself did not repair any of the scopes, not even in Europe...
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As far as I know, they only sent capacitors to everyone who requested, but Siglent itself did not repair any of the scopes, not even in Europe...
Not strictly true.. In the UK, My SDS1202X-E had its main board replaced free of charge including free carriage. I even had the option of the distributor replacing the main board, or for them to add the capacitors to the existing board. Either way, the warranty would be totally intact. I opted for the new board.
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My preference would be for a new PCB. In the UK they have strong consumer protection which states that new goods sold must be of "merchantable quality", at the very minimum this says that the item must do what it was bought for - it's very disappointing that Siglent claim there is "no specification [claimed by Siglent] for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges"; that is pure BS IMHO.
In theory I could sue but that's not practical as it would cost 20x the cost of the scope and I would have no guarantee of success; it certainly will make me think twice before buying Siglent again.
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email to Siglent USA....
Scott,
Thanks for the email.
I think it's unreasonable for Siglent to claim that it's somehow OK to have to re-compensate the probe when changing from one Y range to another - e.g. changing from 1 volt to 2 volts per division because there is "no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges"; I own several scopes and this is the only one that has that 'feature'. The de-facto performance for all scopes I've ever used is to set the probe compensation up using the provided calibration signal and then be able to adjust the other X or Y controls without any need to perform probe compensation again. It's like Ford claiming that it's reasonable that I have to re-tune my car engine every time I shift gear because the specification for my car doesn't say that I can expect the engine to run properly after a gear shift because a gear shift alters the physical way that the engine is connected to the wheels and load on the engine has changed.
The right thing to do would be to repair my 8-month old product for free; in Europe, I believe that it what Siglent are doing.
If you are unwilling or unable to offer a free return and repair, then I will take you up on the offer of the capacitors and instructions. My address is:
nnnn xxxxx yyyyy
zzzz hhh 12345
Sincerely,
Ted
Your email from "Scott Rocco" is the same exact response (word for word) I received from Scott at Siglent USA. The only difference is that you were offered capacitors to fix the scope on your own. The reply from Siglent seems like it was a form letter response from a customer service person, not a real engineer due to the low level of acceptance on test equipment.
Another engineer at Siglent has recently responded to an old problem in a different thread after a year. Maybe he can get this compensation issue addressed in this thread.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Mr Fabe,
Do you think it might be possible to win Siglent over and get them to fix our 'scopes?
Ted
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Mr Fabe,
Do you think it might be possible to win Siglent over and get them to fix our 'scopes?
Ted
This was the person that responded in the other thread.. Steve Barfield
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=17966.msg1402043.msg#1402043
I am hopeful he may help but will not hold my breath for any real response in the forum spotlight.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Mr Fabe,
Do you think it might be possible to win Siglent over and get them to fix our 'scopes?
Ted
This whole sorry saga has been a right PITA so WRT my remoteness from the factory I've reworked all I had in stock to the factory specified procedure posted here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1333094/#msg1333094 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1333094/#msg1333094)
Takes a good hour for your first one. The cap fitting takes only minutes. Disassembly, adjustment and reassembly takes the time.
Those that might have locations close to the Shenzhen, Hamburg or Ohio branches will be better served by getting their MB's replaced AND documented as such.
This was the person that responded in the other thread.. Steve Barfield
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=17966.msg1402043.msg#1402043 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=17966.msg1402043.msg#1402043)
I am hopeful he may help but will not hold my breath for any real response in the forum spotlight.
I've never been given an 'official' Siglent position on this matter !
Right now we can only deal with the dealers, Hamburg and Ohio branches as the factory has shut down for the Chinese New Year.
Ted
Get back to Ohio and put some pressure on Scott or Steve (GM) to have you MB replaced.....point him/them to your posts on this matter and they'll sort something out.
Of course to have it replaced you'll be without it for a bit IF they have replacement boards on hand. Best you find out if they do and get one held before sending it in.
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My preference would be for a new PCB. In the UK they have strong consumer protection which states that new goods sold must be of "merchantable quality", at the very minimum this says that the item must do what it was bought for - it's very disappointing that Siglent claim there is "no specification [claimed by Siglent] for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges"; that is pure BS IMHO.
Maybe that was the reason of sending replacement main board, or maybe Chris-G has contacted them earlier than me.
In e-mail, they also told me these units are "operating as expected" and mentioned that "The "flatness" of the waveform can be adjusted using the compensation on the probe body".
So, they told similar BS for me and not provided any options other than sending capacitors (and replacement warranty sticker) to replace them myself.
Anyway, the BS above did not make me happy and not helped building up their reputation in my head, regardless of the successful self-repair.
My preference would had been also a new PCB (calibrated in factory), if I had that option... but the only option was the shipment of replacement capacitors and the mentioned BS - the latter was the most destructive for me. :(
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Very disappointed in Siglent over this issue. It should be what's good for one is good for all.
I guess I live in the wrong country. Some European country's dealers are replacing the motherboards
with new corrected calibrated boards.
Probably will not buy anymore Siglent equipment.
Was in the market for a bench DMM and a function gen.
Seriously gave Siglent thought on these until this scope issue came up and nothing
is being done from factory.
Sure, I could get caps thru Sig-USA and do it myself, but why should I devote my time and
effort to correct what is clearly a Siglent factory issue.
Here is example of my deviation::
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Very disappointed in Siglent over this issue. It should be what's good for one is good for all.
I guess I live in the wrong country. Some European country's dealers are replacing the motherboards
with new corrected calibrated boards.
Probably will not buy anymore Siglent equipment.
Was in the market for a bench DMM and a function gen.
Seriously gave Siglent thought on these until this scope issue came up and nothing
is being done from factory.
Sure, I could get caps thru Sig-USA and do it myself, but why should I devote my time and
effort to correct what is clearly a Siglent factory issue.
I went to bat pretty hard about this and some in Siglent think this will die a natural death, sure it will over time but that does NO GOOD for owners that are affected by it now !
I've reworked ~1/2 dozen units and threatened to send Siglent an invoice for my time.....which I still might as even when you're well set up to do the rework would still take a good 1/2 day.
You guys in the States should be hammering Scott and Steve for satisfaction !
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I went to bat pretty hard about this and some in Siglent think this will die a natural death, sure it will over time but that does NO GOOD for owners that are affected by it now !
I've reworked ~1/2 dozen units and threatened to send Siglent an invoice for my time.....which I still might as even when you're well set up to do the rework would still take a good 1/2 day.[/quote]
You guys in the States should be hammering Scott and Steve for satisfaction !
[/quote
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I guess I will just chalk this up to "Bad purchase decision"
Its a shame when a company will not stand behind their stuff.
I guess I will start looking at other mfgs for my other purchases.
Maybe Sig will "die a natural death" if people shy away from their equip because of this issue'
Very unhappy with Siglent about this.
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Very disappointed in Siglent over this issue. It should be what's good for one is good for all.
I guess I live in the wrong country. Some European country's dealers are replacing the motherboards
with new corrected calibrated boards.
Probably will not buy anymore Siglent equipment.
Was in the market for a bench DMM and a function gen.
Seriously gave Siglent thought on these until this scope issue came up and nothing
is being done from factory.
Sure, I could get caps thru Sig-USA and do it myself, but why should I devote my time and
effort to correct what is clearly a Siglent factory issue.
I went to bat pretty hard about this and some in Siglent think this will die a natural death, sure it will over time but that does NO GOOD for owners that are affected by it now !
I've reworked ~1/2 dozen units and threatened to send Siglent an invoice for my time.....which I still might as even when you're well set up to do the rework would still take a good 1/2 day.
You guys in the States should be hammering Scott and Steve for satisfaction !
Sad to hear that the lousy Siglent support that we end customers receive is extended to their distributors as well. I will reach out to the folks at Siglent USA again. In addition, I have posted this issue in the Amazon review section (1 Star) and will look at the possibility of filing a formal BBB (Better Business Bureau) consumer warranty complaint against Siglent USA. I will only use Scott Rocco's name in the formal complaint since he represented Siglent in my emails. If other USA owners have the similar negative responses but with a different Siglent representative, I can add that person to the complaint as well.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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tautech, thanks for your support. I don't expect to hear back from Scott until Monday. I will pressure him to do the right thing; mr fabe, dave356, and vaZso are right, this is BS, Scott starts by saying "We are familiar with the probe compensation issue" which is tantamount to an admission that there is a defect. It would cost Siglent USA very little to get a few motherboards, add the capacitors and do the calibration, and then use these to fix customers' SDS1202X-Es. If I'm forced to, I can do the repair and I have the right ESD and soldering tools to do it but I should not have to.
I've bought 2 pieces of Siglent test gear in the last 12 months, the SDS1202X-E and the SPD3303X-E, to my way of thinking I was trying the brand out but I knew I was an early adopter for the SDS1202X-E; others in this forum suggested waiting until Siglent had wrung the bugs out which they probably have now but I, and others who bought early, should not be treated as suckers and Siglents' position on the issues is stupid. It doesn't say in the warranty that the screen won't flash intermittently, if that started happening, what would be their position?
Like I have said, I'd like Siglent to do the right thing here.
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Is this just an issue on the 1202? I have an 1104 in the post.
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Is this just an issue on the 1202? I have an 1104 in the post.
Yes and only for older SDS1202X-E before BB SN#'s.
See here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1376181/#msg1376181 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1376181/#msg1376181)
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and others who bought early, should not be treated as suckers and Siglents' position on the issues is stupid. It doesn't say in the warranty that the screen won't flash intermittently, if that started happening, what would be their position?
Like I have said, I'd like Siglent to do the right thing here.
Be ready to be treated like a sucker. Siglent competes solely on price and since there is a sucker born every minute they get away with it. There is a similar issue in the early SDG1000 function generators. These have excessive jitter on square waves due to wrong component values/poor design. That was never recalled (let alone fixed) by Siglent either. You are basically left to depend on the willingness of the dealer to fix the problem for you OR do the repair yourself.
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Siglent needs to do the right thing on this issue if they are to restore my faith in their equipment.
Like I posted earlier, Siglent os "OFF" of my "equipment to buy" list.
I'm sad to feel this way about their stuff, The price point for what you get on capabilities and function
is hard to beat on most of the equipment.
Step up Siglent.
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Siglent needs to do the right thing on this issue if they are to restore my faith in their equipment.
Like I posted earlier, Siglent os "OFF" of my "equipment to buy" list.
They're off my xmas card list as well.
I can't believe they're still messing about with this, OTOH, come to think of it I can!
My CML+ is at least as bad as your X-E.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084)
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nctnico, it was YOU who warned me :-BROKE You can say I told you so!
I also have the sloppy binding posts issue on my SPD3303X-E power supply...
Maybe I should fix this stuff, sell it, and buy recertified Keysight stuff from eBay, that's how I got my Keysight MSO7104B.
But I'm not that upset really, there's still a good chance that things will work out and, for under $400, the SDS1202X-E is a great deal but I definitely have the compensation issue that dave356 shows in those photos. I haven't heard back from Siglent yet so I'm not going to condemn them without giving them a chance to make things right.
later..
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I'm hoping they take care of this because I would really like to get the SDM3055 or SDM3065X DMM.
They could restore my faith in them easily.
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Hello,
Rather than wait for a Siglent solution to put the SDS1202X-E back on their own with the missing capacitors, I received the 4pf capacitors via Siglent Europe and installed them myself, just like that it's done and we speak more about it.
Siglent said that without the 4pf capacitors the standard was still respected, but it's a shame that Siglent did not go beyond by soldering these 2 capacitors to the factory.
Regards,
Diabolo
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Well, lucky me!
I ordered an SDS 1202X-E on January 23, 2018 through Amazon and the order was fulfilled by Amazon and delivered January 25. Then today I run across this thread. Sigh...
Yes, mine is a SN in the BAQ range and I have confirmed the change of waveform from 1.2V to 1.22V. Ugh. :palm:
So, I have a choice of whether to keep it or return it which I can do before the 24th of this month. I was hoping to learn that Siglent USA is taking an active role in resolving this issue for those of us caught up in this mess. I guess not. :--
Perhaps my only recourse is to return the unit to Amazon and leave a poor review. Maybe this is the only way to get Siglent USA's attention. >:(
I really want to like the scope with its small footprint it is perfect for my hobby use, but I wasn't expecting a poorly manufactured toy either.
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Definitely return the scope and leave poor rating, indication operational issue with the unit.
Maybe if enough low ratings or returns, it might get Siglent moving in the right direction on this.
What they should have done is issue an immediate recall on these once the issue was proven.
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Yeah, I think that is probably the better course of action. Maybe wait a few months and order again and (hopefully) get a later production model.
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Sorry to hear about your scope, but its ben long enough that all of the "defective" units should
have been out of the pipeline.
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Well, lucky me!
I ordered an SDS 1202X-E on January 23, 2018 through Amazon and the order was fulfilled by Amazon and delivered January 25. Then today I run across this thread. Sigh...
Yes, mine is a SN in the BAQ range and I have confirmed the change of waveform from 1.2V to 1.22V. Ugh. :palm:
So, I have a choice of whether to keep it or return it which I can do before the 24th of this month. I was hoping to learn that Siglent USA is taking an active role in resolving this issue for those of us caught up in this mess. I guess not. :--
Perhaps my only recourse is to return the unit to Amazon and leave a poor review. Maybe this is the only way to get Siglent USA's attention. >:(
I really want to like the scope with its small footprint it is perfect for my hobby use, but I wasn't expecting a poorly manufactured toy either.
Check your order from Amazon. The unit most likely is Sold by Siglent USA / Distributors and shipped by Amazon... which means they are not fixing the bad units but dumping them on unsuspecting buyers.
There was another person who recently purchased from Amazon in the US and received a defective unit as well. I believe he hails from France..
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Well, lucky me!
I ordered an SDS 1202X-E on January 23, 2018 through Amazon and the order was fulfilled by Amazon and delivered January 25. Then today I run across this thread. Sigh...
Yes, mine is a SN in the BAQ range and I have confirmed the change of waveform from 1.2V to 1.22V. Ugh. :palm:
So, I have a choice of whether to keep it or return it which I can do before the 24th of this month. I was hoping to learn that Siglent USA is taking an active role in resolving this issue for those of us caught up in this mess. I guess not. :--
Perhaps my only recourse is to return the unit to Amazon and leave a poor review. Maybe this is the only way to get Siglent USA's attention. >:(
I really want to like the scope with its small footprint it is perfect for my hobby use, but I wasn't expecting a poorly manufactured toy either.
Check your order from Amazon. The unit most likely is Sold by Siglent USA / Distributors and shipped by Amazon... which means they are not fixing the bad units but dumping them on unsuspecting buyers.
Yes, this would be very worrying.
NONB, who was the Amazon supplier ?
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The supplier is not all that clear. Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page. The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings. The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon. I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.
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The supplier is not all that clear. Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page. The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings. The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon. I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.
Return it and if you decide to purchase it again, verify that Amazon is an authorized distributer or your SOL on your warranty. If you choose Saelig or Transcat, you may save $ on sales tax.
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The supplier is not all that clear. Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page. The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings. The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon. I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.
FFS that's Siglent America's Amazon shop ! :-- :scared:
They should know better ! :wtf:
Edit
SEND IT BACK !
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The supplier is not all that clear. Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page. The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings. The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon. I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.
FFS that's Siglent America's Amazon shop ! :-- :scared:
They should know better ! :wtf:
The manufacturer comments in the negative review states:
"Please contact Amazon to get a replacement scope. The small "blip" that shows up when changing the input range and compensating the scope probe has been updated in the later units."
They suggest that the scope with the compensation issue should be returned for a replacement scope yet they refuse to honor the problem under warranty? Am I reading this wrong?
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Isn't a return and replacement.. Somewhat a warranty-like action?
Seems like there's a tiny bit of quibbling at this point over a proposed solution.
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Isn't a return and replacement.. Somewhat a warranty-like action?
Seems like there's a tiny bit of quibbling at this point over a proposed solution.
If the purchased was within the return window, you get a refund/replacement. The problem is when you have the unit for several months and just discovered the compensation issue. If you manage to receive the missing caps from Siglent and want to update the unit yourself, then that's your choice. Not everyone want to spend the time to fix a manufacturer defect, put the unit's calibration in question and future warranty issues in jeopardy if Siglent claims you performed the update incorrectly.
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Also consider that Siglent specifically disclaims themselves from damage you may do when you put in capacitors which they left out. Also consider that we who purchased our oscilloscopes through the authorised dealer chain have not been notified by the dealers of the defect. And consider that Siglent is apparently still trying to "flush" the defective units from the "pipeline" by dumping them on ignorant purchasers. This is pretty embarrassing.
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If the purchased was within the return window, you get a refund/replacement. The problem is when you have the unit for several months and just discovered the compensation issue. If you manage to receive the missing caps from Siglent and want to update the unit yourself, then that's your choice. Not everyone want to spend the time to fix a manufacturer defect, put the unit's calibration in question and future warranty issues in jeopardy if Siglent claims you performed the update incorrectly.
Yes, which means that the three year warranty is false. I bet a lawsuit in Europe would work but it's not worth the hassle. Even worse, seems that inventory affected by the flaw has not been recalled. "Hey, make sure to state that you want a BB+ serial number when ordering!" :horse:
Specs or not specs, does the manual say that the compensation has to be adjusted for each vertical range? No it doesn´t.. So it's a manufacturing defect that should be covered by warranty.
A shame, as the SDS1202X-E is much better executed than the Rigol DS1000Z series (I own both and the interpolation insanity in the Rigol is a serious design flaw in my opinion). But I guess they need to learn a lesson or two on business ethics.
Besides, a free lesson on marketing and brand image. My brother works for a stage lighting and equipment company. People in that sectors are heavy users of Leatherman multi tools and they abuse them a lot. Guess what does Leatherman do when you send it back for service? Despite the pretty much obvious heavy use they repair it for free. Are they stupid? No, they are not. They know that most of their customers won't need a repair, only a minority. And seeing my brother at work with a flawless unit is good publicity for them. "Hey, look at these guys, and despite how much they use the tool it's spotless!".
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The supplier is not all that clear. Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page. The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings. The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon. I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.
FFS that's Siglent America's Amazon shop ! :-- :scared:
They should know better ! :wtf:
The manufacturer comments in the negative review states:
"Please contact Amazon to get a replacement scope. The small "blip" that shows up when changing the input range and compensating the scope probe has been updated in the later units."
They suggest that the scope with the compensation issue should be returned for a replacement scope yet they refuse to honor the problem under warranty? Am I reading this wrong?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
This is because any seller needs to honor amazon's return policy if they want to keep the store open. It has nothing to do with recognizing the problem. If buyers file too many A-Z claims, then amazon closes the store.
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I'm planning on buying one of these scopes from Amazon in Canada. ($422 Canadian -- which is $351US)
If I get one with the probe compensation issue, I will return it and post a review to that effect, warning other potential buyers of the issue. I know this is a very inexpensive scope, and that they likely don't have the margins built in to this product to support extensive warranty claims, but
it's been over 3 months since they started manufacturing correct units - if they still have defective units in the distribution pipeline that they are knowingly selling, that's on them.
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It seems, that not all of the 1202X-E-Scopes of the first charge are affected from the compensation issue, respectively not similar affected.
I bought my 1202X-E more than half a year ago and now I detected this thread and I tested my item.
I attached the screenshots and as long as I can evaluate the results, I guess, I can be happy!
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To add to the context, I ordered a SDS1202x-e from amazon.ca after confirming via chat that all in stock were supposed to be post fix with BB serial numbers. I received a unit with the fix with BB serial number. All was well for a week though the buttons were a little intermittent in terms of contact but seemed to be working in and becoming more reliable. For example the trigger and common function buttons were initially not consistently activating with a single push - they might flash or take two/three pushes to activate. This seemed to be getting better with use.
I was on the fence and might have returned it anyway when the large horizontal control knob seized up on Friday.
Amazon is shipping a replacement so I will see when it arrives.
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To add to the context, I ordered a SDS1202x-e from amazon.ca after confirming via chat that all in stock were supposed to be post fix with BB serial numbers. I received a unit with the fix with BB serial number. All was well for a week though the buttons were a little intermittent in terms of contact but seemed to be working in and becoming more reliable. For example the trigger and common function buttons were initially not consistently activating with a single push - they might flash or take two/three pushes to activate. This seemed to be getting better with use.
I was on the fence and might have returned it anyway when the large horizontal control knob seized up on Friday.
Amazon is shipping a replacement so I will see when it arrives.
Glad to hear that your able to replace the unit!
Imagine if you had one of the defective units and had performed the cap installation on your own...
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My one star review is now live on Amazon's page for this 'scope. I'm curious whether I'll receive a reply from Siglent USA. :-DD
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My one star review is now live on Amazon's page for this 'scope. I'm curious whether I'll receive a reply from Siglent USA. :-DD
Siglent is aware and has been monitoring this forum but has been silent... I'm sure they saw your review
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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I read your review -- I didn't think you were being overly harsh - you clearly described the issue, provided evidence of the issue, and proposed a remedy (recall). The remedy might be a little extreme, but I believe Siglent should, at least, offer to repair the affected scopes under warranty. The repaired scopes would, of course, have a valid warranty for the remainder of the warranty period, and be correctly calibrated before shipping back to customers. Siglent should at least pay for shipping 1 way. If they want to be seen as a class act, they should pay for shipping both ways.
Ignoring the issue, hoping it will die out, or providing the caps and asking users to fix it (risking damage not covered under warranty) are, in my opinion, all signs of a company that does not stand behind its products, and does not care about its customers.
I sympathize with Siglent - They have made a great product, but it has a flaw that cannot be patched with software - that is bad luck. But if you want to play the game, you have to accept losing hands as well as winning ones. Fixing this may wipe out all the profits for the affected units. Or may even cost more than that. But if Siglent wants a good reputation (and reputation for reliability and accuracy is absolutely necessary to sell test instruments), they need to put on their big-boy pants and fix this. A simple statement from Siglent would lay all this to rest;
"Siglent will promptly honor all warranty claims against defective products. Please contact Siglent with the model number & serial number of the affected unit, and a brief description of the problem. Siglent will provide a shipping label to affix to your box to ship it to the nearest Siglent repair facility. The device will either be repaired or replaced with an equivalent device at Siglent's option. You can expect return shipment within 10 business days of Siglent receiving the defective device."
A manufacturer or service provider should not argue the validity of a claim -- that is never a winning argument. Just fix or replace. If no satisfaction can be found, offer a refund.
How hard would that be? Apply that consistently, and you'll have loyal customers rallying to your defense every time something happens.
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I would like to think that Siglent is formulating a response, but after nearly 120 days after being informed about the issue, things are still very quiet. Also, unless the bar codes on my box hint at the serial number in some non-obvious way, the box would need to be opened and each individual unit visually checked for a BA or BB serial number. I can't see Amazon doing that.
Siglent's warranty is reasonably short.
Service Commitment
Warranty
The following warranty applies to all SIGLENT products procured through the SIGLENT approved representatives and/or distributors. Product purchased from outside the SIGLENT network will be serviced by the selling agents and not SIGLENT Technologies.
1. SIGLENT Technologies. warrants its products’ mainframe and accessories in materials and technologies within the warranty period. During the period concerned, SIGLENT guarantees the free replacement or repair of products which are approved as defective.
2. All Siglent test instruments come with a 3 year warranty on parts and labor, with the following exception - All accessories and batteries come with a one-year warranty. In above-mentioned periods, any hardware or software errors that occur due to quality or workmanship flaws will be examined and repaired or replaced, at Siglent’s discretion, by the SIGLENT Maintenance Center or its authorized maintenance branch at no charge.
3. The warranty period starts from the date of the valid certificate of purchase (receipt or invoice). If the invoice cannot be offered, the starting date will adopt the manufacturer’s delivery date. In the event of a sale or product transfer by the original purchaser to a third party, the warranty period shall be three (3) years or one (1) year (See #2) from the date of purchase of the product by the original purchaser from SIGLENT or its authorized distributors.
4. For in warranty service, SIGLENT strives to attain fast turn-around. Normal repair time is less than 14 business days. For service that will exceed this time SIGLENT will attempt to provide loaner units to be used during the repair cycle. Final availability of loaner units will be at SIGLENT’s discretion. The transportation cost of return to customer will be paid by SIGLENT. If the special transportation is required, please make contact with the SIGLENT Maintenance Center.
5. The warranty is void if:
(1) Accidental damage occurs during transportation (please confer with insurance agency or transportation company on the compensation).
(2) Malfunction or damage is caused by misuse according to warnings in the product documentation or using or storing in an environment outside of the specification’s limits.
(3) Surface damage by manmade factors, like burn, distortion by force, etc.
(4) Repaired by anyone who is not from SIGLENT Maintenance Center or an authorized maintenance branch.
(5) Accident damage caused by using a power cord or a power adapter not approved by SIGLENT.
(6) Malfunction or damage caused by natural calamities, like earthquake, lightning strike, etc.
6. If the received products have exceeded the warranty time period or the lifetime warranty, SIGLENT will still provide the related repair and or maintenance services. However, the owners of the products are responsible for the repair and or maintenance charges, the return shipping charges and any additional costs.
7. SIGLENT assumes partial maintenance responsibility which is reasonable and operable, and refuses to accept any other responsibility for the damage caused by the customers’ wrong operation.
8. Product with fault not covered by warranty should be transported to SIGLENT Maintenance Center to have a repair, and the consignor will pay the transportation cost.
9. Please contact with SIGLENT Maintenance Center for any kind of special maintenance or service requirement.
10. No Liability & No Promise Clauses. SIGLENT will not be liable for the inevitable, indirect, or supplementary damages of the product purchasers or the third party users that are caused by its product deficiency; for example, loss of profitability, loss of sales investment, loss of business image or enterprise interactional obstacles. In addition, SIGLENT has no liability for the deficiency of other apparatus, equipment or facilities caused by the operation of its product.
The above is SIGLENT’s most complete version Warranty policy ; these clauses may displace other oral or written versions of warranty policy. Except for the above described product warranty, SIGLENT will not provide additional warranty policy other than what is described and claimed in this composition.
Warranty above applies to products sold by SIGLENT Technologies. and its authorized dealers, and any other form of warranty should e based on this. SIGLENT technology has the final power of interpretation with the maintenance affairs.
I suppose the key is going to be whether Siglent agrees that this is a defect per paragraph 2. My thought is that the near immediate change in production units as documented in this thread is evidence of a defect and that all owners of BA serial numbered models are entitled to repair or replacement at Siglent's discretion. I still have 12 days, so it's not unreasonable for me to wait a week before I initiate a return to Amazon to see if Siglent USA is going to offer owners of BA models a solution.
Siglent's site has a nice problem solving flowchart.
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$ cat "collect_customers_opinions" > /dev/null
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Also see #4. Warranty void if repaired by anyone other than Siglent or an authorized maintenance branch.
Anyone who installed the caps themselves, Look Out!
Legally, they can refuse warranty if they so desire.
The way they are handling this, I wouldn't doubt it if they opened a return, see the caps
where there should not be, and refuse warranty coverage because of "customer Modification".
That second paragraph I think surely relates to our problem, "Hardware error due to quality or workmanship"-----
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Anyway, I think this case the customer was authorized as "maintenance branch".
Also, as far as I know, some retailers have done the replacement mentioned, maybe as an authorized maintenance branch, so they should not refuse warranty unrelated to changing the capacitor... if there are any warranty at all anyway...
Otherwise, the second paragraph is interesting...
"In above-mentioned periods, any hardware or software errors that occur due to quality or workmanship flaws will be examined and repaired or replaced, at Siglent’s discretion, by the SIGLENT Maintenance Center or its authorized maintenance branch at no charge."
The above has not happened, or at least the customer itself was called as "authorized maintenance branch"...
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Siglent's site has a nice problem solving flowchart.
If that flowchart is done by the same bloke that does the firmware, it would explain quite a lot. :)
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Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors. He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.
Hmmm, what to do next?
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Thats lame. Should never accuse customers like that. :palm:
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I'm going to give up. I've spent more time complaining than it would take me to fix it. I know I could force the issue with the seller or even the credit card company but I'm done, enough, finito.
Won't buy Siglent again in a hurry.
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Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors. He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.
Hmmm, what to do next?
Steve is the GM for Siglent USA. For him to respond that way with accusations is not very professional and perhaps he is the reason why the US customers lack quality support on this issue. If the folks outside the US don't have the same problem, then he is the problem. He has been monitoring this group lately and can defend Siglent's position if he wants to. So far, he only chooses not to.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors. He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.
Wow. Just, wow.
I guess that now I know what sort of outfit we're dealing with. Evidently, the principles involved don't realize (or care?) that customers do have ways of communicating with each other and that word gets around.
Other than this defect I really like the 'scope. I just want one that is correct from the get-go.
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Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors. He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.
Wow. Just, wow.
I guess that now I know what sort of outfit we're dealing with. Evidently, the principles involved don't realize (or care?) that customers do have ways of communicating with each other and that word gets around.
Other than this defect I really like the 'scope. I just want one that is correct from the get-go.
As advised, send it back and then INSIST you get a replacement with SN# BB or later.
BB's came out from the factory in October 17.
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Dear friends,
I bought my unit from Amazon.com a couple of weeks again.
A "BA" units was delivered to me. Usual compensation problem identified.
I poste a negative comment as a review on Amazon.
I got a "comment" from the manufacturer :
"Actually, the design was modified in September to add two capacitors to improve the probe compensation. They were never "not soldered in" but were added in a product improvement. All units shipped from our factory now have this new design - the two capacitors."
I'm really pissed off by their dishonest behaviour.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKE5F14UJHQFA/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B06XZML6RD (https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKE5F14UJHQFA/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B06XZML6RD)
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This crap makes me want to send my SDS1104X-E back. Hard to believe Siglent isn’t stepping up and making this right for the early adopters.
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This simple issue regarding the compensation problem really bothers me. It just does not feel ethically correct for Siglent's GM to promote the adding of the "missing caps" is really a feature enhancement and not to fix a defect. It's the damn principal that manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to ignore. Siglent users only want to make their equipment a better dependable tool to use. Real users are one of their strongest advocates in promoting their product line. They have fixed the problems once they were notified in their production line yet it's not defect? If we had a poll for affected users who feel that a remedy is warranted, then it may be worth a shot.
I believe in giving any company the opportunity to do the right thing for this defect. We know that Siglent USA's GM has drawn the line in the sand. What is the position in other countries outside the USA?
I know the distributors invest a lot of time to fix the issue for their customers. I hope they are compensated for their efforts.
We have several remedies to take advantage of such a class action claims (need 1 to file, 40 to back the action). The firm that recently won a class action (Motorola) would be one of the potential law representatives to consider. There's a UCC complaint option for consumers in many US states, and in California, we have the lemon law. The BBB option really has no teeth to hold the company accountable so I may skip that one.
The question is whether this is worth the time to try and hold a company accountable to honest business practices. I think that the cost accountant for Siglent may have overstated the number of end users actually seeking a remedy to repair this missing caps problem.
Sorry about the delirious ranting...
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Dear friends,
I bought my unit from Amazon.com a couple of weeks again.
A "BA" units was delivered to me. Usual compensation problem identified.
I poste a negative comment as a review on Amazon.
I got a "comment" from the manufacturer :
"Actually, the design was modified in September to add two capacitors to improve the probe compensation. They were never "not soldered in" but were added in a product improvement. All units shipped from our factory now have this new design - the two capacitors."
I'm really pissed off by their dishonest behaviour.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKE5F14UJHQFA/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B06XZML6RD (https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKE5F14UJHQFA/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B06XZML6RD)
Gotta love the "customer is always wrong" attitude on display.
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Hello,
Question: Why does the PCB have an unused free slot CB105 and CA105?
Why this PCB was not manufactured with a single capacitor slot when it was designed, ie just with CB106 and CA106?
In the mind of the manufacturer, why create a free space that is useless at the beginning of the 1202X-E series?
With a single location it was enough to replace the original capacity by a value greater than 4pf.
Diabolo
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I received some extra money for a consulting gig and was ready to purchase a Siglent SDS 1204X-E until I saw this thread. With Siglent’s distain for customers I will spend my money elsewhere.
Maybe I’ll wait for Rigol to come up with a new model; at least Rigol had the foresight to take care of early customers, even if it took them a while to work out the bugs.
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Yea, Siglent "Early Adapters" = "Early Suckers.
Product improvement my a**. More like design team screw up.
This should have been caught and taken care of during factory testing
and calibration.
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For people who do not have an oscilloscope, or want to replace an old device, just buy the "BB" series and everything will be perfect.
That the owners of the series "BAQ" moan, ok, but that those who do not have Siglent are silent.
The new 1202X-E and 1104X-E and 1204X-E are ok, so there's no reason not to buy them.
I asked for the capacitors, Siglent Europe provided them with a warranty label, and we moved on to something else!
I admit that Siglent could have installed these capacitors directly during the manufacturing BAQ, we agree.
Diabolo
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Question: Why does the PCB have an unused free slot CB105 and CA105?
Why this PCB was not manufactured with a single capacitor slot when it was designed, ie just with CB106 and CA106?
In the mind of the manufacturer, why create a free space that is useless at the beginning of the 1202X-E series?
With a single location it was enough to replace the original capacity by a value greater than 4pf.
I think it is because its developers designed those slots for fine-tuning the circuit before mass production.
Then, at mass production stage, another decision was made that these capacitors can be left out (maybe there are other components which really don't need to be soldered anyway), but they may not test it deeply.
Also, it is not easy (not cheap at all) to get a capacitor in a slightly different value, as they have common values available.
Another place for fine-tuning (adding a capacitor of small value as compensation) is a correct way of design.
I am writing in general, not about Siglent itself.
So, they really made a mistake and their later communication is not really good...
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Amazon.ca just shipped me a "BA" serial number unit - I confirmed the compensation issue. I'm sending it back for a replacement. I mentioned in the text field for the return about the serial number. Lets see if the replacement has a "BB" number. I'm holding off on a one star review until the replacement arrives. If it is also a "BA" unit, I will be tempted to post it. It will be a "just the facts" review - no opinions.
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The one star review should be posted now for shipping the bad unit and help other buyers. Later if you receive the BB unit you can edit the review.
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Siglent probably only get about 2 or 3% of buyers 'concerned' about the 'compensation issue', so I'd be surprised if the "BA"'s don't still keep turning up!
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It is difficult to understand how Siglent CEO isa thinking - or is he thinking at all.
Why it is so difficult to think how important is building good reputation.
If vision is not in future but only just current money flow without any worry about tomorrow...sorry but it feels like this.
It do not help any thing if launch new products competiting with price and features if other hand repeatedly destroy all potential good reputation. But no. Again and again just some small thing what then rise up and destroy part of reputation...
It is not cheap at all recall equipments back to service but it is only strong solution.
They know exactly what units have this problem. (I do not now try explain why this happend.. but reason or other it is and this is fact. )
They need set open letter to custoemers and distributors where they tell serial numbers what are affected.
They need ask distributors stop selling these units. If distributor have servicve they need make deal how to compensate dealers service department this work. If can not, then arrange these units back to Siglent or some other service who can so this job.
Units what are in end users hand they need do offer for full free RMA.
Other roads is that (perhaps more cheap way but not good because...no need explain) these distributors who have stock these issue units. They need publish full document so that buyer exactly understand and honestly can see this problem and with this notification sell these units with good offer price and notification about this lack of performance. So, buyers can make his own decision with offer price and problem.
This note about product quality problem need also read in invoice and receipt with serial number.
Also there is other solutions.
But in all cases Siglent need be active part. Not end user. Because this is not random failure or random rare error in product. This is absolutely systematic and known error in manufacture process. Without any doupt.
Trying explain that this is not serious or this is not error in manufaturing and so on so on... it only make things more and more bad fore reputation.
Here need be open and honest. THis is only way to build better and better reputation. With good and better reputation they can win many orders of magnitude more money than what needs to be use now.
Old times Tek and HP publish service notes about hardware problems found after production. I have several service manuals with huge amount of these notes they send afterwards. Also soem recommended modifications what can do in repair service. Some times add some components, change components, cut traces and solder jumpers etc.
THis is bit joke but I'm not sure if some company have made this somewhere.
Make designed known error and design also solution and procedure for it. So that it is not very bad and most users do not even find it or this error pops up in designed time later.
Then factory make big number and publication about it (after it pos up) and well designed arranghements how they handle this error ans they get high reputation because they are so good they did this after sales care. Designed error with designed solution so tghat customers feels very very happe they buy this equipment from this kind of exellent company... designed trick. Perhaps some engineer have also some psygology degree there... (primitive: do designed bad and then pre designed highly caring help for victims... and they fall in love"
But here need not this, there is now allready accidentally made error in manufacturing and now they need show who they are. They have now opportunity to rise reputation. Are they crap sellers or company who care customers and want build more and more good and trusted reputation. Reputation need earn from customers. There need be clever, there need be open and honest.
I know some chinese companies who did not understood this. Now these companies reputation is in "junk class" but they did not believe this before too late, just like Titanic captain...
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I just initiated a return for a replacement, so we'll see what I get next.
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Siglent probably only get about 2 or 3% of buyers 'concerned' about the 'compensation issue', so I'd be surprised if the "BA"'s don't still keep turning up!
They will for sure and this thread will be long-lived because of it !
Meanwhile, as rf-loop clearly points out, much damage to the brand and customer's allegiance is being done. :--
We have to try and pick up the pieces. >:(
PS
Yes they are working on CML FW.
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For people who do not have an oscilloscope, or want to replace an old device, just buy the "BB" series and everything will be perfect.
That the owners of the series "BAQ" moan, ok, but that those who do not have Siglent are silent.
The new 1202X-E and 1104X-E and 1204X-E are ok, so there's no reason not to buy them.
I asked for the capacitors, Siglent Europe provided them with a warranty label, and we moved on to something else!
I admit that Siglent could have installed these capacitors directly during the manufacturing BAQ, we agree.
Diabolo
I think you are missing the point.
For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent. So what if the current problem affects only one model....
Once I plunk down $X for the SDS-1104X-E, I have no assurance at all the the manufacturer is going to stand behind its product, and with a similar issue I could well be out of luck.
Not a great way at all to build a brand or introduce a new product.
Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."
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I think you are missing the point.
For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent. So what if the current problem affects only one model....
(...)
Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."
The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.
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I think you are missing the point.
For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent. So what if the current problem affects only one model....
(...)
Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."
The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.
Did you mean manufacturer ?
It's even bigger than that !
I manage NZ warranty for Siglent and any unit I have sold previous to this issue coming to light falls firmly into my lap, not Siglent's ! The instant I had caps I reworked all units in stock but I have enough other non-reworked units 'out there' to be cause for concern in my small marketplace....but not unmanageable.
Which reminds me.....must ask Siglent for more caps.
Offer to all my NZ customers with pre-Nov 17 SDS1202X-E, contact me for free rework or to check if it's already been done.
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If the producer of the video linked below is to be believed then this video is confirmation that Siglent or one of its distributors are knowingly and actively distributing problematic oscilloscopes. The fellow in the video states that he purchased this particular scope at a reduced price from Siglent after they declared that it had a known repairable problem.
For fellow member StillTrying's sake and sanity it is about time and good to hear that Siglent are finally going to address the outstanding firmware issues with the still current CML+ series. I seriously ask, does Siglent have a disgruntled employee or saboteur in its midst ?, no company I ever knew fucked things up so badly or on such a regular basis, I feel sorry for their good agents and distributors who once again have to tolerate this crap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uasDBPcibUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uasDBPcibUw)
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I think you are missing the point.
For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent. So what if the current problem affects only one model....
(...)
Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."
The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.
Did you mean manufacturer ?
It's even bigger than that !
I manage NZ warranty for Siglent and any unit I have sold previous to this issue coming to light falls firmly into my lap, not Siglent's ! The instant I had caps I reworked all units in stock but I have enough other non-reworked units 'out there' to be cause for concern in my small marketplace....but not unmanageable.
Which reminds me.....must ask Siglent for more caps.
Offer to all my NZ customers with pre-Nov 17 SDS1202X-E, contact me for free rework or to check if it's already been done.
Fantastic support from a distributor such as yourself deserves :clap: :clap: :clap: for a company who is not worthy :-BROKE
To fix this Siglent issue takes time and money away from your business and family. I sure hope you will get compensated for your noble efforts. If you were a local vendor of mine, you would have me as a customer for life... Thank you Tautech!
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Thanks.
Many like myself find themselves in a similar position. :(
For the big distributors the problem is just too big to manage 'in house'.
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The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.
Did you mean manufacturer ?
BIG APOLOGY, YES MANUFACTURER!
(English as a second language!)
I manage NZ warranty for Siglent and any unit I have sold previous to this issue coming to light falls firmly into my lap, not Siglent's ! The instant I had caps I reworked all units in stock but I have enough other non-reworked units 'out there' to be cause for concern in my small marketplace....but not unmanageable.
They should have either recalled the affected stock or compensated your expenses for reworking them.
Offer to all my NZ customers with pre-Nov 17 SDS1202X-E, contact me for free rework or to check if it's already been done.
As we say in Spain quoting "Poema de Mio Cid": "What an outstanding knight, if only he served a good lord!"
The product is very good but they must understand the long term benefits of correcting their own mistakes.
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Thanks.
Many like myself find themselves in a similar position. :(
For the big distributors the problem is just too big to manage 'in house'.
Unfortunately. When we are an electronics hobbyist, a professional and then also sometimes selling something, it's as we have to do so for not destroy our own faces.
It can also ask from Siglent if it is intelligent or stupid to break the camel's back if there is still long way home.
What are many big distributors. (I do not even talk about Amazon like drop shippers what sell pants or scopes or what ever can easy sell) Interesting only for instant sales. They are often only the senders of the sales package - mass sellers. Mostly they do not even know what's inside the package or how it works. Barely just copy the manufacturer's product information sheet or other seller's information to shop web side. Some times even images are wrong or fake. Some times sales persons have never seen product irl what they sell. How can ask these sellers offer some repair service or technical after sales customer help. Just, nothing.
Of course there is also good and high quality big sellers who are professionals!
But then we can also ask. How many hours usually peoples want do work for 10 dollar, rmb or euro. I, as hobbyist, I can do even 1 hour if I get -1000 dollar. (yes this sign is right). As we know all hobby eat some money. But after then I may do 100 hour and get +10 dollar for hour. Life is...
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Some times sales persons have never seen product irl what they sell. How can ask these sellers offer some repair service or technical after sales customer help. Just, nothing.
But the product is cheap. What do you want? If you want decent service then you have to spend more money.
Tautech deserves a big pad on the shoulder :-+ for trying to clean up after Siglent but even he has to realise this whole affair just eats into his profits (time spend and sales lost).
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Some times sales persons have never seen product irl what they sell. How can ask these sellers offer some repair service or technical after sales customer help. Just, nothing.
But the product is cheap. What do you want? If you want decent service then you have to spend more money.
Tautech deserves a big pad on the shoulder :-+ for trying to clean up after Siglent but even he has to realise this whole affair just eats into his profits (time spend and sales lost).
What I want. Question is not what I want. Question is what customers want. Question is what kind of service I can give to customers from my own pocket. I have not made these mistakes, but I am responsible in live practice. Not perhaps legally responsible but I have my reputation and I have faces and both of these are values-property what I want not easy loose when others make mistakes. This is what push me, and example even more Tautch to work things what do not belong to me or he. Perhaps I can go to Siglent factory and tell that this lot you do so that I control and watch it from components to ready product and all do under my eyes and control. Then I can be also responsible but then I also want my salary.
This is why I ask previously and kindly: It can also ask from Siglent if it is intelligent or stupid to break the camel's back if there is still long way home.
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[snipped]
What I want. Question is not what I want. Question is what kind of service I can give to customers from my own pocket. I have not made these mistakes, but I am responsible in live practice. Not perhaps legally responsible but I have my reputation and I have faces and both of these are values-property what I want not easy loose when others make mistakes. This is what push me, and example even more Tautech to work things what do not belong to me or he.
THIS ^^^^
Despite other offers of distributorship from competing brands I choose to remain a Siglent only distributor and the benefits are that the information can flow freely to you all. Yes I could represent other brands but the problems others have with worse support and poor design can only lower what reputation I have in the industry and worked hard for. Like rf-loop but with much less experience, I look hard at the equipment, what it can offer and sell and support accordingly. Siglent models that have not progressed, are outdated or are priced at the very bottom of the barrel I WILL NOT STOCK !
I say here and now to Siglent that I will re-attempt to arrange a video of SDS1202X-E rework as it was abandoned after some pressure on me from high in Siglent. Only now after it has been very clear that management won't assign resources to do rework for customers at service centers it is now important that good guidance to do the rework is available online.
It is not simple easy but capable hobbyists with some care and SMD experience and a sig gen capable of 10 KHz square wave @ 1.2V and 12V can do the rework. It is not hard.
At least Siglent have given us a detailed procedure that matches production adjustments.
This problem will shadow Siglent for some time to come and it is a shame that SDS1202X-E has been tarred with this brush, it is a very good little DSO and soon will be my best seller.
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[snipped]
What I want. Question is not what I want. Question is what kind of service I can give to customers from my own pocket. I have not made these mistakes, but I am responsible in live practice. Not perhaps legally responsible but I have my reputation and I have faces and both of these are values-property what I want not easy loose when others make mistakes. This is what push me, and example even more Tautech to work things what do not belong to me or he.
THIS ^^^^
Despite other offers of distributorship from competing brands I choose to remain a Siglent only distributor and the benefits are that the information can flow freely to you all. Yes I could represent other brands but the problems others have with worse support and poor design can only lower what reputation I have in the industry and worked hard for. Like rf-loop but with much less experience, I look hard at the equipment, what it can offer and sell and support accordingly. Siglent models that have not progressed, are outdated or are priced at the very bottom of the barrel I WILL NOT STOCK !
I say here and now to Siglent that I will re-attempt to arrange a video of SDS1202X-E rework as it was abandoned after some pressure on me from high in Siglent. Only now after it has been very clear that management won't assign resources to do rework for customers at service centers it is now important that good guidance to do the rework is available online.
It is not simple easy but capable hobbyists with some care and SMD experience and a sig gen capable of 10 KHz square wave @ 1.2V and 12V can do the rework. It is not hard.
At least Siglent have given us a detailed procedure that matches production adjustments.
This problem will shadow Siglent for some time to come and it is a shame that SDS1202X-E has been tarred with this brush, it is a very good little DSO and soon will be my best seller.
Seriously, You should take the other distributorship offers. Siglent will ditch you at their earliest convenience (i.e. If they find a way to sell directly, cutting the middle tier).
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If the producer of the video linked below is to be believed then this video is confirmation that Siglent or one of its distributors are knowingly and actively distributing problematic oscilloscopes. The fellow in the video states that he purchased this particular scope at a reduced price from Siglent after they declared that it had a known repairable problem.
He states that he wrote several companies looking for second hand units, demos, etc. and Siglent replied that they had this one which was a former lab unit. The way he describes it, they did not inform him of the issue, and apparently did not add the capacitors before sending it out to him from, presumably, the factory. :palm:
For fellow member StillTrying's sake and sanity it is about time and good to hear that Siglent are finally going to address the outstanding firmware issues with the still current CML+ series. I seriously ask, does Siglent have a disgruntled employee or saboteur in its midst ?, no company I ever knew fucked things up so badly or on such a regular basis, I feel sorry for their good agents and distributors who once again have to tolerate this crap.
Outside of this forum, just what percentage of USA buyers have recognized an issue with any of the products and are contacting their dealer/distributor/the factory for repair/replacement? My guess is that the percentage is quite small. I suspect that Siglent USA has made a calculated cost/benefiit decision to arrive at their current position.
Let's face it, a lab is not going to be considering Siglent for their test equipment line up. If I were outfitting a lab to set up a repair business I would be looking at Tektronix and comparable OEMs. Siglent is clearly aiming at the hobbyist/student/part time repair shop market where Tektronix reputation is not the first consideration in the purchase. In this forum this issue is getting quite a bit of attention but outside of forum members posting reviews on Amazon, this issue is unknown. I know because even in my searches a few weeks ago this thread did not come up. Five star reviews are still being posted on Amazon indicating satisfaction. I would have posted a five star review up until February 11. So let's not think this issue will actually harm Siglent in any appreciable way.
Fact is that I had not heard of Siglent in amateur radio circles, which is somewhat surprising or maybe I just wasn't paying attention, and only discovered them via an Amazon search for DSOs. I watched several of Dave's videos regarding Siglent products and my impression was that for the money it is a good product especially for its targeted market segment. I'm going to continue to work toward getting a BB 'scope no matter how long it takes as I really like the feature set and small footprint for the occasional work on amateur radio transceivers I want to do.
As Amazon is the most visible venue for reviews of the product, in the USA at least, so long as the review percentage remains high, Siglent USA will continue to let the BA stock move out the door as the few returns and complaints will cost them little. It stinks to be sure, but is the way of the modern business model in the USA.
Note, this is not to defend Siglent USA but to explain what I see going on knowing the corporate world as I do. If I get a BB unit, I will likely adjust my review to four or five stars.
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After another appeal to Steve Barfield, he offered to allow me to RMA my scope for a refund (less shipping) which is OK but he's never apologized for falsely accusing me of leaving a 1-star review and he still insists that the compensation issue is not something covered by warranty.
Siglent America could and should have done the right thing from the start, fix all these scopes under warranty.
I could go buy a new SDS1202X-E but I deiced to buy a DS1054Z instead.
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.............
Seriously, You should take the other distributorship offers. Siglent will ditch you at their earliest convenience (i.e. If they find a way to sell directly, cutting the middle tier).
Unless it was 1st tier equipment, not much interested. Some offers are interesting but when you look harder at their product ranges.....yeah, nah ! :=\
Been through that exercise years ago when I was looking for scope brands to sell and all the 'good' stuff is spoken for by long established dealers in this part of the world.
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As Amazon is the most visible venue for reviews of the product, in the USA at least, so long as the review percentage remains high, Siglent USA will continue to let the BA stock move out the door as the few returns and complaints will cost them little. It stinks to be sure, but is the way of the modern business model in the USA.
Note, this is not to defend Siglent USA but to explain what I see going on knowing the corporate world as I do. If I get a BB unit, I will likely adjust my review to four or five stars.
It is precisely because AMZN is so visible that details about the product and the support (or lack of support) behind the product from the manufacturer be included in reviews there.
I do hope that, if/when you get a BB unit, you detail what was wrong with the first one and the steps you had to take to get a corrected one.....
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I do hope that, if/when you get a BB unit, you detail what was wrong with the first one and the steps you had to take to get a corrected one.....
I presently have a one star review up on Amazon with an explanation with screen shots.
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I presently have a one star review up on Amazon with an explanation with screen shots.
I just saw it and the 2 and 4 star negative comments, and noted that even the 5 star comments were not unambiguously positive.
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Amazon.ca shipped me a second defective unit ("BA" serial) I confirmed the probe compensation defect.
I'm packing this one up and returning it too.
Amazon.ca is offering 3 options;
1: Return both scopes fur a full refund.
2: 20% discount on the original shipped unit
3: Try a third time
I'm going to try a third time. I'm making it clear that if it is also a "BA" serial number that I will be returning it too.
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Amazon.ca shipped me a second defective unit ("BA" serial) I confirmed the probe compensation defect.
I think we should have a poll on whether you get a third "BA", I think the chances are high. :horse:
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I just received my replacement from Amazon earlier this evening and am happy to report that it is a 'BB' unit and now there is a label on the outside of the box with the model and serial number (maybe it was covered by another label on the previous unit?). I've had it on just a few minutes and I've played with it just a bit using the compensation test point and the square wave is much more stable while cycling through several ranges.
:clap: :-+
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This time, amazon says it'll be the right one :-) I should know later today - I'll post here when it arrives.
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Purchased through MegaDepot, about a week ago, must be a dropshipper? Still no word on shipping, could be a good thing if I get a bb s# if not it will go back, truly a shame how this has been swept under the rug. Such a great scope otherwise.
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Amazon.ca shipped me a second defective unit ("BA" serial) I confirmed the probe compensation defect.
I think we should have a poll on whether you get a third "BA", I think the chances are high. :horse:
You would win that bet -- I now have 3 "BA" serial number units to send back to Amazon.ca
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Purchased through MegaDepot, about a week ago, must be a dropshipper? Still no word on shipping, could be a good thing if I get a bb s# if not it will go back, truly a same how this has been swept under the rug. Such a great scope otherwise.
My sentiments entirely. I liked the scope but the attitude towards me as a paying customer...
All things being equal, people will do business with people that they like.
All things not being equal, people will still do business with people that they like.
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The serial number was not on the outside of the box. So I opened it to check -- another "BA" serial number, and I confirmed the compensation issue -- they are not sending out fixed units - they are trying to unload the defective ones on unsuspecting customers. Amazon assured me that they had checked and that a correct unit would be shipped. It was not. Again, I don't blame Amazon -- I believe Siglent is to blame here.
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Hello,
It is true that Siglent would have had to take over and replace the known BA stocks at the resellers, it was the easiest and least expensive solution.
Similarly warn distributors of the problem and see with them if they could install themselves 4pf capacitors.
Diabolo
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You would win that bet -- I now have 3 "BA" serial number units to send back to Amazon.ca
Are you going to try for a fourth. :horse:
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Amazon.ca shipped me a second defective unit ("BA" serial) I confirmed the probe compensation defect.
I think we should have a poll on whether you get a third "BA", I think the chances are high. :horse:
You would win that bet -- I now have 3 "BA" serial number units to send back to Amazon.ca
FFS, that's appalling !
Truly, what a state of affairs. :palm:
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But just think about how many "used" scopes will be available on Amazon Warehouse at bargain prices! >:D
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The serial number was not on the outside of the box. So I opened it to check .............
Can I ask if it was double boxed or single ?
If double boxed, the SN# is never visible, only on the inner box on one end.
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Funny just got tracking info from MegaDepot, and shipping is out of Ohio, pretty sure it’s been dropshiped from Siglent, we shall see what shows up.
:-//
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The serial number was not on the outside of the box. So I opened it to check .............
Can I ask if it was double boxed or single ?
If double boxed, the SN# is never visible, only on the inner box on one end.
Single boxed. None of the three units I have been shipped have the serial number on the outside of the box. They have all been "BA" serial numbers, and they all have the probe compensation defect.
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You would win that bet -- I now have 3 "BA" serial number units to send back to Amazon.ca
Are you going to try for a fourth. :horse:
Amazon.ca is not giving that option -- it's now just "return for full refund"
And I updated my review to 1 star.
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I wonder how this one's getting on, same country and Amazon as ian.ameline.
To add to the context, I ordered a SDS1202x-e from amazon.ca after confirming via chat that all in stock were supposed to be post fix with BB serial numbers. I received a unit with the fix with BB serial number.
...
I was on the fence and might have returned it anyway when the large horizontal control knob seized up on Friday.
Amazon is shipping a replacement so I will see when it arrives.
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Funny just got tracking info from MegaDepot, and shipping is out of Ohio, pretty sure it’s been dropshiped from Siglent, we shall see what shows up.
:-//
Pretty sure that is exactly the case. At least it should mean that you should get one of the newer serial numbers since more than likely coming straight from Siglent.
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Just catching up on the thread now as I have been traveling for work. As an update I too ended up getting a bad unit again with BA serial number.
I returned it to amazon and didn't bother with a third unit - took a refund. Not sure what I will do now in terms of another vendor or see what Siglent does.
-dave
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Just catching up on the thread now as I have been traveling for work. As an update I too ended up getting a bad unit again with BA serial number.
I returned it to amazon and didn't bother with a third unit - took a refund. Not sure what I will do now in terms of another vendor or see what Siglent does.
-dave
Dave, Saelig is very aware of this issue as it was bought to their attention a while back in this thread. Their list price is the same as everyone else and for EEVblog members they offer a 6% discount that you can ask for the code to use in their online checkout. Discount thread in this board.
However you should still contact them to ensure they dispatch a SN# BB unit.
http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1202x-e.htm (http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1202x-e.htm)
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Just a quick one, is the serial number for this series also displayed internally on the system information screen ?.
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Just a quick one, is the serial number for this series also displayed internally on the system information screen ?.
Yes.
Serial number is:
- product label outside of the factory carton. (every seller can see this label without opening carton. Also factory shipping
carton what include 4pcs scopes have every individual scope label outside of this carton.
- serial number label bacside oscilloscope.
- oscilloscope utility - info display (FW version, FPGA version, HW version, serial number, boot counter
- printed in factory calibration certificate
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Just a quick one, is the serial number for this series also displayed internally on the system information screen ?.
Yes.
Serial number is:
- product label outside of the factory carton. (every seller can see this label without opening carton. Also factory shipping
carton what include 4pcs scopes have every individual scope label outside of this carton.
Here in the USA, at least, the BA scope I received did NOT have a label on the outside of the box with the model/serial number that I could find.
The BB unit I just received does indeed have a label with the model/serial number on the outside on one end of the box .
- serial number label bacside oscilloscope.
- oscilloscope utility - info display (FW version, FPGA version, HW version, serial number, boot counter
- printed in factory calibration certificate
Agreed.
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Here in the USA, at least, the BA scope I received did NOT have a label on the outside of the box with the model/serial number that I could find.
Something fishy going on here. :-//
Siglent products have always had labels with model, SN# etc on the outside of the box, without exception !
When double boxed, no, but the inner box.....yes, always !
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Hello,
My box has the serial number on an outdoor label.
I bought in the 1st SDS1202X-E sold.
Diabolo
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Here in the USA, at least, the BA scope I received did NOT have a label on the outside of the box with the model/serial number that I could find.
Something fishy going on here. :-//
Siglent products have always had labels with model, SN# etc on the outside of the box, without exception !
When double boxed, no, but the inner box.....yes, always !
I have a brown cardboard box with the Siglent logo, no inner packaging, three labels (shipping, Amazon barcode, Siglent barcode with 10 character and model number). No exposed serial number on packaging.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180222/4bdb796c9d57657ff38d8d6672dd0130.jpg)
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Here in the USA, at least, the BA scope I received did NOT have a label on the outside of the box with the model/serial number that I could find.
Something fishy going on here. :-//
Siglent products have always had labels with model, SN# etc on the outside of the box, without exception !
When double boxed, no, but the inner box.....yes, always !
I have a brown cardboard box with the Siglent logo, no inner packaging, three labels (shipping, Amazon barcode, Siglent barcode with 10 character and model number). No exposed serial number on packaging.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180222/4bdb796c9d57657ff38d8d6672dd0130.jpg)
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
So, where did you buy that one?
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Here in the USA, at least, the BA scope I received did NOT have a label on the outside of the box with the model/serial number that I could find.
Something fishy going on here. :-//
Siglent products have always had labels with model, SN# etc on the outside of the box, without exception !
When double boxed, no, but the inner box.....yes, always !
I have a brown cardboard box with the Siglent logo, no inner packaging, three labels (shipping, Amazon barcode, Siglent barcode with 10 character and model number). No exposed serial number on packaging.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180222/4bdb796c9d57657ff38d8d6672dd0130.jpg)
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
So, where did you buy that one?
Amazon.com
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Here in the USA, at least, the BA scope I received did NOT have a label on the outside of the box with the model/serial number that I could find.
Something fishy going on here. :-//
Siglent products have always had labels with model, SN# etc on the outside of the box, without exception !
When double boxed, no, but the inner box.....yes, always !
I have a brown cardboard box with the Siglent logo, no inner packaging, three labels (shipping, Amazon barcode, Siglent barcode with 10 character and model number). No exposed serial number on packaging.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180222/4bdb796c9d57657ff38d8d6672dd0130.jpg)
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
So, where did you buy that one?
Amazon.com
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
I have seen more than just one Siglent original new packages.
Never they have been as this in image what looks like picked up from waste station.
Amazon is what it is...
Is explanation here:
1.
$341.10 Amazon
Used - Like New
Item will come in original packaging.
2.
$341.10 Amazon
Used - Like New
Item will come in original packaging. Packaging will be damaged.
They are recycled items. Just as you return, then these are sold to next victim without any shame. They recycle it so many time that it reach buyer who is too lazy to return.
Even if Amazon tell New, it still may be returned from some previous buyer if they look it can easy sell with claim "New".
Amazon do not have any moral or ethic. Only what matter is they bank account balance what works as moral and ethics handbook. When I do work least 2 working hour for every single sold scope and many times much more. For example check that scope is not monday morning "lemon" or FW is too old or probe GND spring is missing etc... or if there is example shipping damage. Also never send alone factory carton. Always it is inside outer carton just for avoid shipping damages. Factory carton is part of product, also it need stay in as good condition as possible, least same what it have arrived from manufacturer to me.. But it is also strange they remove serial number off from carton. This is really weird. Exept if Siglent really use different carton label policy for exeptional area as North America.
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Just so you know..
The original packaging did not have all the extra tape. The unit was in a Siglent box, sealed with Siglent security tape, and in excellent condition. Amazon only stuck an address label, and barcode label on. I reused the box to ship something else and got it back. The point of the picture was to show that the sealed Siglent box from Amazon did not have a "serial number" on the outside of the carton to indicate BA.. , BB.., or whatever. This unit was new with a calibration certificate dated in August 2017 and received in mid September 2017. If Siglent now currently ships with the serial number displayed on the packaging, it's a good thing because the vendor we buy from has to know what model they are sending.
At least the current packaging now matches the quality of service one can expect from the manufacturer at the present time.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Just so you know..
The original packaging did not have all the extra tape. The unit was in a Siglent box, sealed with Siglent security tape, and in excellent condition. Amazon only stuck an address label, and barcode label on. I reused the box to ship something else and got it back. The point of the picture was to show that the sealed Siglent box from Amazon did not have a "serial number" on the outside of the carton to indicate BA.. , BB.., or whatever. This unit was new with a calibration certificate dated in August 2017 and received in mid September 2017. If Siglent now currently ships with the serial number displayed on the packaging, it's a good thing because the vendor we buy from has to know what model they are sending.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
I have co-operated with Siglent several years.
All cartons what arrive from Siglent factory is labeled by product label what include serial number. It is really years ago when situation was some times perhaps different. So, perhaps they use different label policy just for American markets.
Here is image about original genuine siglent factory carton how they are labeled here. (I have edited image so that can not read real serial).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=397710;image)
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Just so you know..
The original packaging did not have all the extra tape. The unit was in a Siglent box, sealed with Siglent security tape, and in excellent condition. Amazon only stuck an address label, and barcode label on. I reused the box to ship something else and got it back. The point of the picture was to show that the sealed Siglent box from Amazon did not have a "serial number" on the outside of the carton to indicate BA.. , BB.., or whatever. This unit was new with a calibration certificate dated in August 2017 and received in mid September 2017. If Siglent now currently ships with the serial number displayed on the packaging, it's a good thing because the vendor we buy from has to know what model they are sending.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
I have co-operated with Siglent several years.
All cartons what arrive from Siglent factory is labeled by product label what include serial number. It is really years ago when situation was some times perhaps different. So, perhaps they use different label policy just for American markets.
Here is image about original genuine siglent factory carton how they are labeled here. (I have edited image so that can not read real serial).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=397710;image)
Thanks for the clarification. At least it makes it clear for potential buyers that the labels should have the serial number displayed on the exterior packaging. That definitely adds to the premise that Siglent USA is dumping the old units to unsuspecting buyers since serial number is now displayed.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Here is image about original genuine Siglent factory carton how they are labeled here.
And here and 1 unit I got from HK many years ago, same.
They have always been that way.
Labeled only on one end but early/old units had a different style label to what we see today but still with model #, SN# and barcode. Old boxes were marked in blue ink not the black we see today.
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Here is image about original genuine siglent factory carton how they are labeled here. (I have edited image so that can not read real serial).
My BB unit from welectron arrived in identical box
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Some times it is also good to differentiate what we like and then what are specifications and then what all can meet specifications. (bolded and underlined for clarify confusions what I mean and for give some direction how to read next things.)
If look tightly specifications as they are even these individual manufacturing lots what have this "we do not like this - issue" they do not violate specifications if we look specifications tightly as they are. Of course if we look 1kHz good shape square wave and how scopes typically show it and what kind of display is "default in mind". But, if we draw all worst cases what still do not violate specifications we can surprice.
Here is some kind of draw about level specifications.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=397784;image)
Red marked area is accepted error area aka error window. Green line (3 div up from center) is this imaghe reference level "0 dB")
I have not draw these worst case square wave shapes what still meet specs. But everyone can imagine it quite easy as long as he remember what is square wave or what ever other wave than pure sine wave. In mind try dfraw worst case square where what ever harmonic sinewave is affected how ever but inside specification max errors.
Who want - home exercise: draw worst case square wave shape what meet specification. Use example 1 or 10k square and up to 11th or even 13th harmonics (also use right level of harmonics and then every harmonic affected maximal level errors.. note also that level errors are not specified so that freq rtesponse is continuously and nicely only decaying over freq range. (remember kleep enough rest breaks and also some fun)
Of course it is not at all what we like and what is our expected square shape in mind based some experience and simplest school books.
Who can accept 1kHz square wave what is worst case and still inside specifications. I do not like and I believe most do not like but claiming they are out of specs is just misunderstanding. Of course, I can always say I do not like this and that - I do not accept this and that. But I can not claim there is violation of the limits of the specifications.
Who is responsible (in law) if some people do not like or accept some things with his own standards in mind what he individual people accept or not, like or not like.
Add: It looks like some peoples can not read so I want pop up this to these eyes who read unconcentrated.
For build better reputation or keep even allready earned reputation I think it is still wise Siglent handle this case very differently and do all for every customer who do not like this feature and can not accept it. Even if they can still win in law room do they violate or not promised specification. (yes they win if some want try).
Back to right road. Add: <<== (and for avoid more misunderstoodings: this was for Siglent as connected to just previous two sentences)
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Some times it is also good to differentiate what we like and then what are specifications and then what all can meet specifications.
If look tightly specifications as they are even these individual manufacturing lots what have this "we do not like this - issue" they do not violate specifications if we look specifications tightly as they are. Of course if we look 1kHz good shape square wave and how scopes typically show it and what kind of display is "default in mind". But, if we draw all worst cases what still do not violate specifications we can surprice.
Here is some kind of draw about level specifications.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=397784;image)
Red marked area is accepted error area aka error window. Green line (3 div up from center) is this imaghe reference level "0 dB")
I have not draw these worst case square wave shapes what still meet specs. But everyone can imagine it quite easy as long as he remember what is square wave or what ever other wave than pure sine wave. In mind try dfraw worst case square where what ever harmonic sinewave is affected how ever but inside specification max errors.
Who want - home exercise: draw worst case square wave shape what meet specification. Use example 1 or 10k square and up to 11th or even 13th harmonics (also use right level of harmonics and then every harmonic affected maximal level errors.. note also that level errors are not specified so that freq rtesponse is continuously and nicely only decaying over freq range. (remember kleep enough rest breaks and also some fun)
Of course it is not at all what we like and what is our expected square shape in mind based some experience and simplest school books.
Who can accept 1kHz square wave what is worst case and still inside specifications. I do not like and I believe most do not like but claiming they are out of specs is just misunderstanding. Of course, I can always say I do not like this and that - I do not accept this and that. But I can not claim there is violation of the limits of the specifications.
Who is responsible if some people do not like or accept some things with his own standards in mind what he individual people accept or not, like or not like.
For build better reputation or keep even allready earned reputation I think it is still wise Siglent handle this case very differently and do all for every customer who do not like this feature and can not accept it. Even if they can still win in law room do they violate or not promised specification. (yes they win if some want try).
Back to right road.
You provide a lot of technical feedback on Siglent products. Are you a distributor or otherwise affiliated with them, i.e., product tester, receive demos, etc?
Just wondering because although I enjoy your analysis on equipment, I only see your focus on the Siglent line and your the only one who tolls the Siglent position. In fact checking the few hundred posts you made in the past involves Siglent. Strange to say that my level of acceptance is outside the manufacturing tolerances. Me and maybe everyone else affected by the defective units.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Regardless of tolerance is your mind, not placing 2 caps that were in the scope pre production, that makes the scope have known issues, the point about tolerance is mute due to the fix in B.B. serial number units anyway, tying to sweep it under the rug like you are attempting to do. Will not work, recall and rework the goof up, that is the only way to save face on this issue, SIGLENT screwed up twice here, one not installing the two caps, two not recalling early units to fix them, this will only hurt Siglent sales of this unit, if I receive a ba serial number it will be sent back, it is clearly defective, we all know this, your talk of tolerances will not change that, not today, not tomorrow, and clearly you will continue to loose confidence and sales for the SIGLENT brand, bad move SIGLENT, good news is many other brands can easily take your place. :palm:
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Regardless of tolerance is your mind, not placing 2 caps that were in the scope pre production, that makes the scope have known issues, the point about tolerance is mute due to the fix in B.B. serial number units anyway, tying to sweep it under the rug like you are attempting to do. Will not work, recall and rework the goof up, that is the only way to save face on this issue, SIGLENT screwed up twice here, one not installing the two caps, two not recalling early units to fix them, this will only hurt Siglent sales of this unit, if I receive a ba serial number it will be sent back, it is clearly defective, we all know this, your talk of tolerances will not change that, not today, not tomorrow, and clearly you will continue to loose confidence and sales for the SIGLENT brand, bad move SIGLENT, good news is many other brands can easily take your place. :palm:
So you did not read what I told or is it better say you did not understand what I told and some things there in text many times.
And even more, also some my other comments about this issue time ago.
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...recall and rework the goof up...
Steve (aka Siglent America) says that it's not a problem, he says that the 'BA' scopes are in spec and that it's OK that users have to run probe compensation every time they change vertical range. Therefore, it's not a "goof up", therefore Siglent won't "recall and rework"...
I would have been happy having mine fixed but, in the end, I sent mine back for a refund.
:horse:
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...recall and rework the goof up...
Steve (aka Siglent America) says that it's not a problem, he says that the 'BA' scopes are in spec and that it's OK that users have to run probe compensation every time they change vertical range. Therefore, it's not a "goof up", therefore Siglent won't "recall and rework"...
I would have been happy having mine fixed but, in the end, I sent mine back for a refund.
:horse:
If they are stupid enough to not handle this right way. Only what can teach them is money - as you also just did. Some times money is only commader what can talk, and this is it. I can ask. How much can earn with good or exellent reputation. Nearly without limits. Oh... how much this reputation cost I want also this. Sorry Siglent America but there is not shop where you can go and buy exellent reputation.
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Received B.B. sn# from MegaDepot, was indeed dropshiped from SIGLENT.
Still.... :palm: excuses for an epic fail, are just that, feel bad for ba owners.
I can read just fine. And I know bs is bs, it’s that simple , it is what it is.
Seems you can’t read, why are B.B. units equipped with the missing caps if ba scopes are um in spec?
Your point makes no sense at all, and is proven by rework letters and sending caps out, and how B.B. units differ, it’s that simple! :horse:
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If you're replying to me, I was being sarcastic. Difficult for such sentiment to come over on a forum.
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Just wondering because although I enjoy your analysis on equipment, I only see your focus on the Siglent line and your the only one who tolls the Siglent position. In fact checking the few hundred posts you made in the past involves Siglent.
You need check further back. IIRC ~#1100-1200 were mention of many brands have been studied and appraised.
Much, much experience in EE. ;)
Received B.B. sn# from MegaDepot, was indeed dropshiped from SIGLENT.
:-+
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Just for the record, here are my screenshots of both channels of my replacement BB unit.
Looking good.
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My amazon ordered SDS1202 channel 2 vertical knob seized up within the first few turns. Very disturbing that their component quality is so bad. Certainly didn't help that it had the compensation issue as well. Needless to say, it was returned and one-starred.
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Looking at the Amazon reviews, it seems that as the compensation issue has been reviewed at length, there are a few curious four/five star reviews that are very short and from "Amazon Customer". Even more curious is that some replies to critical reviews are also from "Amazon Customer" followed by "Manufacturer", presumably Siglent USA.
I just find this :wtf:
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More and more the reviews on Amazon are turning into nothing more than bogus postings from the store owner. Not sure there is a practical way to police it at their scale.
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Wow, I was considering a Siglent. I was even considering going out of my way and mortgage the dog and the cat to get maybe the 1204 that is almost 800, but this is too bad. I found this also:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/)
Then I went to ebay and see they are selling the BA series with the defect as "new" in at least one ebay auction, so I guess this is the company getting rid of them with unsuspecting buyers.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGLENT-SDS1202X-E-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope-SPO-200-MHz-1-GSa-s-14-Mpts/332580759598?hash=item4d6f5ba82e:g:V4EAAOSwTOtaoopK (https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIGLENT-SDS1202X-E-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope-SPO-200-MHz-1-GSa-s-14-Mpts/332580759598?hash=item4d6f5ba82e:g:V4EAAOSwTOtaoopK)
And then I read this thread.
How can I trust them to help me with warranty later if they already have shown all these problems with customers?? It seems that once they have your money on their pocket they could care less. What will happen when new problems are found that have not been found yet??
Now I see people here bashing the Hanteks, and Owon, and even some Rigols, but then again, Siglent is kind of more expensive for the same, claiming to have a better product but it seems that in any of these brands ,what I will be chosing is what type of bug I want. I guess that if I have to chose bugs between bugs, I will just chose the cheapest one of them that fulfill my application, if the bugs have to be taken care of by myself or worked around anyone. Now that Micsig 4 channel tablet is looking more and more appealing every day. So, it is either expend big dollars for Tek or Keysight or have to deal with these bugs???
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I have a PM from zero poster and new member iMaks-RS.
Welcome.
To iMaks-RS and readers from worldwide that wish to remedy the compensation issue in SDS1202X-E with the correct caps:
My best advice is to contact the distributor in your country and then if needed the Siglent branch in your region.
Their contact particulars and emails are in the Contact Us in the official Siglent websites:
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/lxwms.aspx?id=1337 (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/lxwms.aspx?id=1337)
State the SN# of your unit, seller and buy date in communications please.
Please report troubles with sourcing caps from Siglent or their dealers here and we maybe can use our contacts to help.
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But the fact is that I already wrote two letters in support of Siglent and letters to the seller - his store on the Aliexpress site is no longer working ..
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But the fact is that I already wrote two letters in support of Siglent ........
To whom in Siglent ? Hamburg ?
info-eu@siglent.com ?
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Rob,
Does this mean that US buyers of the SDS1202X-E who find they have a scope that suffers from the compensation issue will now be able to return their scopes for a fee repair or is it only in Europe?
After 3 appeals to Siglent America they did agree to take mine back for a refund which I now have received. I suppose I could have gone out and bought a replacement SDS1202X-E but many people here were reporting that they were still receiving bad scopes so I bought a Rigol DS1054Z instead.
You reap what you sow.
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Rob,
Does this mean that US buyers of the SDS1202X-E who find they have a scope that suffers from the compensation issue will now be able to return their scopes for a fee repair or is it only in Europe?
Ted
AFAIK Siglent worldwide only supply caps on request for owners to do their own 'compensation issue' repairs.
After 3 appeals to Siglent America they did agree to take mine back for a refund which I now have received. I suppose I could have gone out and bought a replacement SDS1202X-E but many people here were reporting that they were still receiving bad scopes so I bought a Rigol DS1054Z instead.
You reap what you sow.
Yes......but sourced from a local supplier you may have had a totally different experience !
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Rob, My original purchase was from Saelig, the official Siglent distributor for the USA I believe.
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Yes......but sourced from a local supplier you may have had a totally different experience !
Which is exactly the problem!
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Yes......but sourced from a local supplier you may have had a totally different experience !
Which is exactly the problem!
I'm confused, are you guys saying that I should have bought from a local Mom n Pop store? AFAIK, there isn't one here in SE Michigan. If that's not what you meant, then what? Like I said, I bought from a (if not the) Siglent distributor for the USA.
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Just a quick one, is the serial number for this series also displayed internally on the system information screen ?.
Yes.
Serial number is:
- product label outside of the factory carton. (every seller can see this label without opening carton. Also factory shipping
carton what include 4pcs scopes have every individual scope label outside of this carton.
- serial number label bacside oscilloscope.
- oscilloscope utility - info display (FW version, FPGA version, HW version, serial number, boot counter
- printed in factory calibration certificate
I returned 3 units to amazon.ca, and none of those three had the serial number on the outside of the box. I was crystal clear with Amazon that I wanted a BB serial unit, and each time they promised a BB serial number, and each time they shipped a BA serial number. I confirmed the compensation issue on each unit (hey -- maybe it had been repaired) before sending it back.
-- Ian.
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Yes......but sourced from a local supplier you may have had a totally different experience !
Which is exactly the problem!
I'm confused, are you guys saying that I should have bought from a local Mom n Pop store? AFAIK, there isn't one here in SE Michigan. If that's not what you meant, then what? Like I said, I bought from a (if not the) Siglent distributor for the USA.
You can go both ways with this. First of all IMO Siglent should be in the lead on the customer service so that every customer gets the same level of service. This shouldn't depend on the willingness or unwillingness of the seller. However it seems in this case Siglent is unwilling to fix the problem for their customers so a supplier which goes above & beyond is a good place to buy from. OTOH that also means that such a supplier is more expensive to buy from (tricky when selling low cost items) or more likely to go out of business if they have to deal with & pay for several of these kind of incidents.
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Yes......but sourced from a local supplier you may have had a totally different experience !
Which is exactly the problem!
I'm confused, are you guys saying that I should have bought from a local Mom n Pop store? AFAIK, there isn't one here in SE Michigan. If that's not what you meant, then what? Like I said, I bought from a (if not the) Siglent distributor for the USA.
Saelig are just one from a list of US nationwide distributors/resellers and are most active here and offer EEVblog member discounts.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/how-to-buy/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/how-to-buy/)
Would they have/offer a service center, sorry I wouldn't know.
Now check the interactive map ^.
Lower down the chain at mom n pop (regional) level where they are 'authorized' Siglent resellers too, where real local support can be offered but this again depends on how many other brands they handle. Marketing is not a perfect science but neither is buying however for me it's quite surprising how many customers now ask what would happen if 'service' was required. I offer a full Siglent service center for my customers.
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Hello,
Does the problem of compensation have a real impact on measurement accuracy? I did not check, alas.
Does this problem put the 1202X-E out of the characteristics announced by the manufacturer Siglent forcing it to correct BA units?
This is the question to ask.
Siglent Europe provided me with 4pf capacitors and I installed them myself.
I do not defend Siglent who could install these capacitors 4pf from production on its production lines.
Diabolo
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Hello,
Does the problem of compensation have a real impact on measurement accuracy? I did not check, alas.
No.
It only effects 10x probe compensation when 1.2V/div is stepped to 1.22V+/div and the the probe needs be re-compensated.
Does this problem put the 1202X-E out of the characteristics announced by the manufacturer Siglent forcing it to correct BA units?
This is the question to ask.
They say it doesn't. :(
Siglent Europe provided me with 4pf capacitors and I installed them myself.
:clap:
I do not defend Siglent who could install these capacitors 4pf from production on its production lines.
They are installed since IIRC late September 2017 production.
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:palm: :-BROKE
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:palm: :-BROKE
Exactly !
We dealers must live with it too ! >:(
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Does the problem of compensation have a real impact on measurement accuracy? I did not check, alas.
Does this problem put the 1202X-E out of the characteristics announced by the manufacturer Siglent forcing it to correct BA units?
This is the question to ask.
I have measured the effect up to 50MHz soon after the probe compensation issue had been discovered some 5 months ago.
I have never published my data because in actual fact I did not want to jump into that discussion and also was curious if anyone else would make measurements in order to quantify the error. Well, I did not see this happen and to the best of my knowledge you’re the first who wants to know.
So here’s my old data.
The first graph shows the frequency response in dB for 1.2V/div and 1.22V/div with the PP215 probe.
The second graph shows the relative error between the two vertical gain settings in percent.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=403357;image)
SDS1202X-E Probe Compensation 50MHz
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=403359;image)
SDS1202X-E Probe Compensation Error 50MHz
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Hello,
Does the problem of compensation have a real impact on measurement accuracy? I did not check, alas.
No.
It only effects 10x probe compensation when 1.2V/div is stepped to 1.22V+/div and the the probe needs be re-compensated.
Er, sorry Rob but the answer should be YES....
Try this usage scenario....
1. The user has their probe set to x10 and vertical gain set to 1.2V/div or under, and then performs probe compensation on the built in square wave.
2. User then samples a waveform that goes off scale so they change to 1.22V/div or higher - there will be no warnings but the probe compensation will be wrong and the displayed waveform will be inaccurate.
Despite the fact that this is the only scope I'm aware of that does not maintain probe compensation when changing vertical gain, Siglent America claims that it is in specification; specifically they said in an email to me...
We are familiar with the probe compensation issue. All of the SDS1000X-E products are in specification. There is no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges.
Siglent sent me capacitors but warned that I may invalidate my warranty by fitting them - I asked them to change the caps for me - they refused but eventually took my scope back and gave me a refund.
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Hello,
Does the problem of compensation have a real impact on measurement accuracy? I did not check, alas.
No.
It only effects 10x probe compensation when 1.2V/div is stepped to 1.22V+/div and the the probe needs be re-compensated.
Er, sorry Rob but the answer should be YES....
Bold above added.
Ted, what is the specified vertical accuracy of most DSO's ? A = +3% or 4% under 2mV/div for SDS1202X-E.
Apply accuracy spec to Performa01's charts and YES for higher frequency the measurements fall outside accuracy spec.
Then I ask when have you needed +3% accuracy beyond 20 MHz ? :-//
Because we now know of the '10x probe compensation issue' users that choose to use the SDS1202X-E over a wide input range and not re-compensate when switching 1-2V/div will encounter this error.
What Performa01's charts don't show is if there's more than 3% error in amplitude at more than 1.22V/div with a properly compensated probe.
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Rob, I don't really want to start a fight with you but a forum user asked if accuracy was affected by the compensation issue and you said no.
If you acknowledge that the waveform gets altered as the compensation issue appears and might give the user an impression that there was a problem on the leading edge of a pulse that was not really there? So you quoting datasheet % accuracies is misleading, a 3% difference should be the same at all parts of the waveform.
Maybe we should run a poll here to see what the community thinks - like is the Siglent compensation issue acceptable / normal?
Diabolo, be informed that Tautech is a New Zealand dealer who sells Siglent test gear - only Siglent.
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Have anyone measured this compensation problem on the BB serial numbers and confirmed if the problem still exist on them??? Are there any other problems specifically with this model or the rest of the series? Does the 1104 xe have the same problem too???
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Have anyone measured this compensation problem on the BB serial numbers and confirmed if the problem still exist on them??? Are there any other problems specifically with this model or the rest of the series? Does the 1104 xe have the same problem too???
I have here SDS1202X-E (BB) of course this problem is solved. It is solved even in original design before any SDS1202X-E manufacturing. These capacitors positions have always been on the PCB layout. No one have told what was this accident when these 3.9pF 500V NP0 capacitors drop out from board assembly process or if in fist test lots they have not seen this "feature" due to possible some other very small differencies in other components used there, 3-4pF is not much. Also there is some other things what can speculate. Perhaps even different probes are not so sensitive with this.
So or so but personally I do not like how Siglent have handled this whole case after it pop-up. When they are in western markets they need learn also how to live here. When I am in China I do not export my cultural habits to china. They can not export chinese culture habits to here so that if make mistake then try only solve it "cinese way" or just only shame laughter or try explain that error is not error. It do not work here. Never. Period.
For future this need learn or cry and learn.
It need understand that all can copy and all can make cheaper etc... but...product quality and service quality level can not copy easy and good reputation is very hard to earn and extremely easy to loose and loosing it cost then thousends of times "lot of". My opinion is that if they --- (now it is too late - all what can loose is anyway allready loosed) --- if they originally handle this case different (and bit expensive) way they can earn lot of good reputation and if think money this reputation value may be decades more what they loose if handle this case even with most expensive way.
SDS10004X-E have never been with this problem. Front end is (bit) different - difference is also visible in specs sheet: nominal input capacitance is different... 2 channel models nominal 18pF and 4 channel models nominal 15pF.
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Despite the fact that this is the only scope I'm aware of that does not maintain probe compensation when changing vertical gain,
Does my CML+ count.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084)
Siglent America claims that it is in specification; specifically they said in an email to me...
We are familiar with the probe compensation issue. All of the SDS1000X-E products are in specification. There is no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges.
I suppose you could argue that for a half-screen-height waveform, the HF response being within 3.5% is in spec. problem is it's -3.49% on one Y range and +3.49% on the next!
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Despite the fact that this is the only scope I'm aware of that does not maintain probe compensation when changing vertical gain,
Does my CML+ count.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084)
Siglent America claims that it is in specification; specifically they said in an email to me...
We are familiar with the probe compensation issue. All of the SDS1000X-E products are in specification. There is no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges.
I suppose you could argue that for a half-screen-height waveform, the HF response being within 3.5% is in spec. problem is it's -3.49% on one Y range and +3.49% on the next!
I guess you meant sds1104-ex, right? I don't know if some of this problem is the reason a lot of these models are on backorder now. This is the second thing I see Siglent mishandling in customer wise treatment. I was ready to pull the trigger for this model, even considered the more expensive model, but this really have me thinking. I do not want or care to go into a back and forth with Amazon over serial numbers, or even to have to call Siglent and be told that they are going to send capacitors and if I damage the motherboard by their omission, my warranty is not valid anymore. Whatever I buy now have to last.
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Despite the fact that this is the only scope I'm aware of that does not maintain probe compensation when changing vertical gain,
Does my CML+ count.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1326084/#msg1326084)
Siglent America claims that it is in specification; specifically they said in an email to me...
We are familiar with the probe compensation issue. All of the SDS1000X-E products are in specification. There is no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges.
I suppose you could argue that for a half-screen-height waveform, the HF response being within 3.5% is in spec. problem is it's -3.49% on one Y range and +3.49% on the next!
I guess you meant sds1104-ex, right? I don't know if some of this problem is the reason a lot of these models are on backorder now. This is the second thing I see Siglent mishandling in customer wise treatment. I was ready to pull the trigger for this model, even considered the more expensive model, but this really have me thinking. I do not want or care to go into a back and forth with Amazon over serial numbers, or even to have to call Siglent and be told that they are going to send capacitors and if I damage the motherboard by their omission, my warranty is not valid anymore. Whatever I buy now have to last.
How many times this need..........
SDS1202X-E old version have this problem as just told. And told many times.
I have repaired some SDS1202X-E models (BA) and also I have here also BB version and this version do not have this problem. Problem is also well documented and very easy repair. Just same as we have old times repaired many Tek and HP equipments after factory have published some recommendeds mods.
If model is serial prefix BB or later do not need worry.
Back orders... why you think there is problems in these equipments because factory can not supply as much than demand...
Do you remember when Riglol 1000Z come to markets... I remember. All sellers sell "we do not have" equipments. It was even some times unknown how long time perhaps can get. Problems in equipment or what was reason... time ago (some year) I buy some GPU's but I did not ask if there was some problems in these GPU's because I need wait 2-3 months.
Siglent factory was also ago all closed due to most big holiday time in chinese year. (yes bit bad time for this product time table in markets) In this vacation time they did not produce or ship any single item from factory in Shenzhen. As can guess (if never visited in any kind of factory) after vacation it also takes some time to starting up whole production to full capacity including all third party suppliers for some building blocks and components - as can guess. Also these models have just short time ago started and some places demand exceeds availability.
Perhaps this text was too complex and long... shortly:
SDS1202X-E have been this issue in serial prefix BA some manufactured lots.
SDS1202X-E serial prefix BB and later do NOT have this problem.
SDS1104X-E do NOT have this problem. (4 channel models are more new than 2 channel X-E models)
SDS1204X-E do NOT have this problem.
SDS2000X serie do not have this this problem.
SDS1000X and X+ models do not have this problem.
Older models, example old CNL, CM, CFL and CML and then its facelifted version CML+ have nothing to do with these new models exept that also they are mfg by Siglent. Totally different animals.
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Really short version...
1. Probe compensation issue affects only the SDS1202X-E scopes and only early units with 'BA' in their serial number (although it's clear that the affected units were not pulled back and repaired by Siglent so some may still be stuck in the supply chain).
2. Siglent's insistence to customers that the probe compensation issue did not constitute an out-of-spec scope, offering only to send the missing capacitors, but warning that users risked invalidating their warranty if they messed up the DIY repair, does not give me a warm feeling about buying another Siglent product.
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No more siglent products for me.
Am in the market for a bench dmm and a signal gen, was looking at siglent,
but not anymore.
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I have done a video on the rework of the SDS1202X-E, showing the disassembly, rework, calibration and re-assembly of the unit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKi1EvpwDws (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKi1EvpwDws)
Here is a supplemental video showing what the probe compensation is like before (simulated by misalignment) and after rework:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUQZGpAVNic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUQZGpAVNic)
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Defpom,
Bravo!
I appreciate you taking the time to do this instructional video. It was very thorough and informative for anyone who has an affected "BA" scope and wants to resolve the probe compensation issue. Well done! :-+
* Edit - Correction from Defporn to Defpom... Sorry about that
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* Edit - Correction from Defporn to Defpom... Sorry about that
LOL that was funny!
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I suggest you to change name from Defpom to Defporn.
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Defporn -
Definition - Watching porn with the sound turned down so nobody else can hear..
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Great stuff Defpom! When I briefly had a BAx copy, I measured the input capacitance with a cheap dmm. I could see the 4pF swing while switching scales, plain as day. Presumably, yours would show little or no measurable change if you did the same - just curious if you've checked it that way.
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Look at this!
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/city-of-toronto/new-siglent-technologies-sds1202x-e-200mhz-digital-oscilloscope/1341034915?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true (https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/city-of-toronto/new-siglent-technologies-sds1202x-e-200mhz-digital-oscilloscope/1341034915?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)
Possibly Siglent's new strategy to dump a load of scopes with compensation issue? Sell them in bulk at a discount. 380 CAD looks very appealing even though I have a DS1054Z and three other scopes :-[.
PS: The tip of my fingers tingle in anticipation of the joy that I would get from opening one to add the caps.
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AFAIK Canada is supplied by Siglent's North American Headquarters.
At that price and if they're (Siglent NA) are willing to post you the caps it would be a good deal IMO if you can successfully manage the rework.
Send them an email asking if you need caps will they supply them.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/contact-us/)
Then at least you'll get the correct ones. ;)
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Also ask them if, after you've fitted the missing capacitors (assuming you will have to), you will invalidate your warranty. $380 Canadian with no warranty doesn't sound that good a deal to me.
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Also ask them if, after you've fitted the missing capacitors (assuming you will have to), you will invalidate your warranty. $380 Canadian with no warranty doesn't sound that good a deal to me.
At least in Europe it seems that they are going to keep warranty. I was asked for the serial number to make sure they respect it.
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AFAIK Canada is supplied by Siglent's North American Headquarters.
At that price and if they're (Siglent NA) are willing to post you the caps it would be a good deal IMO if you can successfully manage the rework.
Send them an email asking if you need caps will they supply them.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/contact-us/)
Then at least you'll get the correct ones. ;)
Sorry to call BS on this. Siglent America would not provide the "caps" for a U.S. sale so what makes you so sure they would send caps to Canadian customers? Has something changed recently for U.S. folks?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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I am in Canada and had purchased the amazon.ca SDS1202x-e and it actually had the label indicating box 27 of 28 from siglent america. It had been shipped to amazon usa then to amazon canada. At that point I was thinking of doing the caps and I reached out to siglent america and the gentlemen there named Scott was going to send me the caps to do the correction.
Ultimately I ended up ordering the SDS1204x-e and returned the other to Amazon.
He seemed quite willing to send them to Canada.
Not use if that has changed at this point.
-dave
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AFAIK Canada is supplied by Siglent's North American Headquarters.
At that price and if they're (Siglent NA) are willing to post you the caps it would be a good deal IMO if you can successfully manage the rework.
Send them an email asking if you need caps will they supply them.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/contact-us/)
Then at least you'll get the correct ones. ;)
Sorry to call BS on this. Siglent America would not provide the "caps" for a U.S. sale so what makes you so sure they would send caps to Canadian customers? Has something changed recently for U.S. folks?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Siglent USA has reached out to resolve my issues from December '16 when I made the request for the "missing" caps. In their response to my email, they stated that the request was overlooked or missed by them and have apologized for the oversight. Irregardless of what, how, or why it happened is not a biggie as long as it has been addressed. Siglent USA's position now is to make sure the caps required to resolve the probe compensation issues are provided to their end customers. Upon receiving the request, the caps and detailed instructions links will be provided by them. I am still unclear about the warranty status after installation and will find out if it is affected. l still believe the BA units should have be recalled and swapped out because this offering does nothing for those folks who do not have the proper equipment or the time to install the caps. Returning the unit for a refund will be their only option if they so choose.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Received the missing capacitors and installation instructions from Siglent USA very quickly. One of the main concerns about opening the scope and performing the upgrade was concerning the warranty status. I was informed that the warranty will be maintained as long as you perform the modification with care as you normally would on electronic equipment. No dripped solder blobs, etc. Upon the request for the capacitors, Siglent USA will note that your unit received the caps so your warranty status will remain intact.
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
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Heads up that Amazon is still shipping the defective BA units as of the 1st week of April, 2018. Both the one I ordered and the replacement that arrived yesterday were from the BA batch. I didn't even unwrap the plastic, just put them back in the box and returned them..
FWIW, I've seen other posts that the serial number is on a sticker on the outside of the box. This was not the case for either of the units I received. Also, both boxes were sealed with "siglent" labeled, clear packing tape.
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Heads up that Amazon is still shipping the defective BA units as of the 1st week of April, 2018. Both the one I ordered and the replacement that arrived yesterday were from the BA batch. I didn't even unwrap the plastic, just put them back in the box and returned them..
FWIW, I've seen other posts that the serial number is on a sticker on the outside of the box. This was not the case for either of the units I received. Also, both boxes were sealed with "siglent" labeled, clear packing tape.
And they are just turning them around and selling them from Warehouse Deals with only a 10% discount! Heck, add sales tax and you're at the cost of a new BB unit from Saelig (also, selling on Amazon).
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Heads up that Amazon is still shipping the defective BA units as of the 1st week of April, 2018. Both the one I ordered and the replacement that arrived yesterday were from the BA batch. I didn't even unwrap the plastic, just put them back in the box and returned them..
FWIW, I've seen other posts that the serial number is on a sticker on the outside of the box. This was not the case for either of the units I received. Also, both boxes were sealed with "siglent" labeled, clear packing tape.
Is it perhaps so that Amazon have removed these serial number labels. It is very easy. I do not at all wonder if this is case. Of course this Amazon can do what ever.
Many years I have never seen original cartons from Siglent without product label with serial numbers.
If there is not product label with serials outside carton no need even oipet it. Just return and reason "This is not original genuine Siglent product"
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To follow up on my post re Amazon still shipping faulty units:
I gave up on Amazon and ordered from http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1202x-e.htm (http://www.saelig.com/siglent-sdsx-series/sds1202x-e.htm). They're shipping the 'BB' models. As a nice plus, it arrived more quickly and cost me less than Amazon.
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Iv'e been lurking and reading this thread with interest for a couple of days since I saw the YouTube videos on this issue, having already ordered an SDS1202X-E from Amazon. It arrived today, and I'm happy to say that it has a "xxxBBxxx" serial number. So it appears Amazon is receiving the corrected units into stock.
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I ordered and received (via Amazon Prime) an SDS1202X-E back in mid-December and was shipped the corrected 'BB' version at that time.
Quite surprised to hear that uncorrected 'BA' versions have shown up more recently, since they clearly had good ones in the warehouse some months ago...
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Siglent wouldn't fix my BA SDS1202X-E under warranty so it was returned for a full refund after considerable hassle on my part. In February 2018 I received my Rigol
DS1054Z DS1104Z which does not have any compensation issues - you don't have to recalibrate the probes after changing vertical gain settings - imagine that!
I paid just $295.25 (using EEVBlog discount) shipped from Tequipment.net for an open-box item that was like new with all cables, manuals, and accessories plus it came with the full option pack (everything but the bandwidth upgrade which you can't buy anyway) as part of the deal. I have to say that the DS1104Z is an awesome little 4-channel scope.
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Bad customer service can be a big turn off.
You went after old but proven hardware and software with known defects. On the other hand I picked powerful zynq platform with software that leaves a lot to be desired. I put my money on Siglent, since CEO presented himself as a software guy, therefore, I hope that scope software will improve over time. :popcorn:
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FWIW, I just got my Siglent from Amazon yesterday, and it's the BB version.
It's an impressive little scope. Coming from a Tek 475 it doesn't seem to be a step down. It's lacking a couple of features I'd like, like sensing a 10x probe, but does more than the 475 can do.
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Bad customer service can be a big turn off.
You went after old but proven hardware and software with known defects. On the other hand I picked powerful zynq platform with software that leaves a lot to be desired. I put my money on Siglent, since CEO presented himself as a software guy, therefore, I hope that scope software will improve over time.
The Siglent Rep told me that my BA SDS1202X-E could not be returned and repaired under warranty as it was fully within specification - here's an actual quote...
Thank you for writing in. We are familiar with the probe compensation issue. All of the SDS1000X-E products are in specification. There is no specification for “probe compensation flatness” between ranges. When you change ranges, the physical circuit is altered and the design/part tolerances dictate the performance. The probe compensation can be adjusted to minimize the effect.
Because of that, I took my money back from Siglent - "hop[ing] that the software will improve over time" does not seem like a sensible purchasing strategy to me but when the hardware is bad and they won't fix it, I'm gonna just say no.
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I put my money on Siglent, since CEO presented himself as a software guy, therefore, I hope that scope software will improve over time. :popcorn:
Last time I put my money on Siglent I lost over 1700 euro so be warned that waiting for the software to improve is not a good idea at all. When your money is in Siglent's pockets Siglent no longer cares and fixing bugs may take years or even never happen at all. There are enough examples on this forum. All in all Siglent uses a typical hit&run strategy. Why do you think Siglent's CEO visits Dave? A typical damage control move to do some window dressing but nothing is going to change.
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To be sure it was more than the interview. @Performa1 and others on this forum are knowledgeable, claim to have the ear of Siglent development team and appear to have genuine interest in making this platform improve.
If that's just sales and marketing consider me fooled :clap:. The ball is in Siglent's court.
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I put my money on Siglent, since CEO presented himself as a software guy, therefore, I hope that scope software will improve over time. :popcorn:
Last time I put my money on Siglent I lost over 1700 euro so be warned that waiting for the software to improve is not a good idea at all. When your money is in Siglent's pockets Siglent no longer cares and fixing bugs may take years or even never happen at all. There are enough examples on this forum. All in all Siglent uses a typical hit&run strategy. Why do you think Siglent's CEO visits Dave? A typical damage control move to do some window dressing but nothing is going to change.
But isn't this really the way of things anymore? Company rushes product to market with buggy firmware; company fixes a few bugs after first release; company releases new product, forgetting that old product exists. Every device I own nowadays has the ability to upgrade firmware, and most of them I might have seen an upgrade or two in the first year, then nothing.
From what I've seen so far, Siglent has been somewhat responsive regarding fixes and even feature requests on many of their products. YOLO did acknowledge that they are a little behind the ball on bug fixes and promised that things would improve. Was he blowing smoke or not? The proof will be if they actually release a firmware update to the SHS scope-meters. :popcorn:
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PS
Yes they are working on CML FW.
Any + news, just out of interest / for amusement.
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But isn't this really the way of things anymore? Company rushes product to market with buggy firmware; company fixes a few bugs after first release; company releases new product, forgetting that old product exists. Every device I own nowadays has the ability to upgrade firmware, and most of them I might have seen an upgrade or two in the first year, then nothing.
Ain't that the truth. TVs, phones, everything, you're lucky to see one firmware upgrade before the manufacturer abandons you. None of which has stopped me buying an SDS1202X-E after the supplier assured me it would have a BB serial. Delivered today and so far so good, though I've little more than installed the newest firmware and adjusted probe compensation.
This is my first post here so greetings to all and thanks for some darn interesting comments.
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But isn't this really the way of things anymore? Company rushes product to market with buggy firmware; company fixes a few bugs after first release; company releases new product, forgetting that old product exists. Every device I own nowadays has the ability to upgrade firmware, and most of them I might have seen an upgrade or two in the first year, then nothing.
Ain't that the truth. TVs, phones, everything, you're lucky to see one firmware upgrade before the manufacturer abandons you. None of which has stopped me buying an SDS1202X-E after the supplier assured me it would have a BB serial. Delivered today and so far so good, though I've little more than installed the newest firmware and adjusted probe compensation.
This is my first post here so greetings to all and thanks for some darn interesting comments.
Welcome to the forum.
Glad you hung out for a BB SN#. :)
Enjoy your new DSO.
PS
Yes they are working on CML FW.
Any + news, just out of interest / for amusement.
Asked a couple of days back how things were progressing......not heard back yet. :(
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Hi, after waiting for nearly a year for the worst bugs to be fixed, I finally ordered a Siglent SDS1202X-E from Batronix.com. By now, they should be allright I thought!
And what did I get today? A one year old scope! It is a "BA" serial from June 2017 |O
It's very disappointing, but also a bit funny, haha ::)
Now debating whether to send it back, or just do the cap fix and live with it..
Has there been any other hardware changes in the last year? Or is it only the compensation caps?
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Hi, after waiting for nearly a year for the worst bugs to be fixed, I finally ordered a Siglent SDS1202X-E from Batronix.com. By now, they should be allright I thought!
And what did I get today? A one year old scope! It is a "BA" serial from June 2017 |O
It's very disappointing, but also a bit funny, haha ::)
Now debating whether to send it back, or just do the cap fix and live with it..
Has there been any other hardware changes in the last year? Or is it only the compensation caps?
Sad state of affairs and I feel for you.
Batronix should've know better than to dispatch a BA unit unless they've reworked it. :-//
Do you know how to do the check to see if this one has been fixed ?
In short, set 1V/div for 10x probe and use Fine to adjust V/div over the 1.2V/div step.
If there's NO change in the waveform it's been fixed in this unit already.
If your are to do the rework yourself ensure you get the correct caps from Batronix or Siglent Europe as they must be 500V rated 1206 SMD. If you're comfortable with SMD work great, but be aware the Gnd pad on both channels sucks a lot of heat and unless you're taking care you can end up with a dry joint.
You need 1.2 and 12V p-p square wave source too to complete the front end adjustment after the caps are installed.
Update us on how things pan out.
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Thanks for your reply tautech.
Yes my unit defintely has the compensation issue, I just checked again.
I could mange to solder in the caps, but I don't really want to spend/waste time on fixing a brand new scope. Especially after I waited so long with ordering, to avoid exactly this type of hassle.
So I think I will return the scope to Batronix on principle, and probably order a (actually) new one from another seller. Will send them an email first and see what they have to say though.
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And what did I get today? A one year old scope! It is a "BA" serial from June 2017 |O
It's very disappointing, but also a bit funny, haha ::)
A sad state of affairs, this is becoming like a Trump University course on how to engender customer brand loyalty 101.
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Thanks for your reply tautech.
Yes my unit defintely has the compensation issue, I just checked again.
I could mange to solder in the caps, but I don't really want to spend/waste time on fixing a brand new scope. Especially after I waited so long with ordering, to avoid exactly this type of hassle.
So I think I will return the scope to Batronix on principle, and probably order a (actually) new one from another seller. Will send them an email first and see what they have to say though.
Be sure not to wait too long for the return grace period to pass. Perhaps it is even better to return it immediately and then work out a resolution. You don't want to keep this scope anyway.
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Batronix has promptly responded to my email with an apology, and a free DHL return shipping label.
They will send a new scope as replacement.
So excellent after-sales customer service at least :-+
Interestingly, they didn't comment on the compensation issue at all.
- Perhaps they figured I might be one of those troublesome EEVblog forum users, and better just fix the situation quickly ;D
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Hello, I bought this oscilloscope from the Siglent.eu eshop and sent me a new BB revision. On my question whether they send a new revision or old BA, they replied that they are sending only new BB. (Forgive me for my bad English)
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Hello, I bought this oscilloscope from the Siglent.eu eshop and sent me a new BB revision. On my question whether they send a new revision or old BA, they replied that they are sending only new BB. (Forgive me for my bad English)
Your English is fine and thanks for reporting your experience!
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Hi,
I learned about this issue just yesterday. :) My unit is purchased May 2017 so for sure it is affected by issue. I checked the serial number and indeed it is BAxxx. I am located in India.
I am no way qualified enough or have tools to repair an actual scope even if I got my hands on requisite capacitors.
I could reproduce the issue on the scope myself. Can you please suggest how to deal with these issues and how to spot how it affects in your usage of scope?
Totally bummed since yesterday.
Any tips or workaround if I don't want to do hardware mod? How to work with a scope with such an issue? Certainly I wouldn't go and buy a new scope. Don't have the budget for that anyways.
You guys are awesome... I learn a thing or two everyday!
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Hi,
I learned about this issue just yesterday. :) My unit is purchased May 2017 so for sure it is affected by issue. I checked the serial number and indeed it is BAxxx. I am located in India.
I am no way qualified enough or have tools to repair an actual scope even if I got my hands on requisite capacitors.
I could reproduce the issue on the scope myself. Can you please suggest how to deal with these issues and how to spot how it affects in your usage of scope?
Totally bummed since yesterday.
Any tips or workaround if I don't want to do hardware mod? How to work with a scope with such an issue? Certainly I wouldn't go and buy a new scope. Don't have the budget for that anyways.
You guys are awesome... I learn a thing or two everyday!
It only is visible when using 10x probe setting and when crossing the threshold of 1.2V/div.
So when probes are compensated @ 1V/div and then 2V+/div is used the peak of the waveform might not be accurate.
Best workaround is to compensate probes correctly @ 1.22V/div using FINE on the vertical control for when higher V/div settings are required.
Email the Siglent factory and ask them to mail you the correct 500V SMD caps to be fitted when/if you get the skill and equipment.
Edit to add:
To be sure the waveform is correct in scopes with this problem it is important to compensate 10x probes below and above V/div settings of 1.20V or even have 2 sets of probes, one for use @ 1V/div and the other for 2V+/div.
In particular, Measurements and Decode results can be affected when probes are not properly compensated.
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We exclusively ship SDS1202X-E with serial number batch SDS1EBB since December 2017 now. I am really surprised this still seems to be an issue for some of you 8 months after the fix, receiving a "new" device...
If we can help out some of you guys in Europe with this issue, let us know! :-+
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Gee, That would be nice if someone here in the U.S. (Siglent) would offer some help with these, beside DIY.
"We'll ship these beta units out and see if anyone has any problems with them, then we will fix and send out corrected units and not worry about defective units. Oh sure, we will send out parts so you could fix them yourself, but good luck that you don't screw up fixing them. Even if you install the parts to
fix the unit, you still need to have proper equipment to ensure correct calibration of the unit."
I've put off buying Siglent DMM and function gen because of feelings about this issue.
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I was wondering if anyone knew if this issue also applies to the sds1104x-e. I'm seeing a similar issue between 1v and 500mv div. My serial is SDSMMDBQ2R and I also purchased it from amazon. I'm thinking of returning it and buying one from saelig to hopefully get one from a different, maybe newer batch. With this unit from amazon, I also had one bad startup up on the first day where it hung on the siglent boot screen. what do you guys think?
Thanks,
Eric
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Welcome to the Forum!
The SDS1004X-E (i.e. the 4-channel units) have never had that significant impedance change with different attenuator ranges (aka "Compensation Issue").
So it appears like you just got a lemon and sending your current unit back and getting a replacement (even from somewhere else) sounds like a good plan to me.
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I was wondering if anyone knew if this issue also applies to the sds1104x-e. I'm seeing a similar issue between 1v and 500mv div.
No.
And more, between 500mV/div and 1V/div it do not switch between front end attenuator circuits.
There is three bands. (coarse steps)
1. 500uV - 118mV/div (500uV, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100mV/div)
2. 120mV - 1.18V/div (200mV, 500mV, 1V/div)
3. 1.20 - 10V/div (2, 5, 10V/div)
Old problen in some SDS1202X-E was between band 1 and 2. (using fine adjust it can hear BW change (relay click) just between 118mV/div and 120mV/div)
Also I have tested several individual SDS1004X-E models and never seen any this kind of compensation issue what was in 1202X-E model when there was missing capacitors.
In some OLD manufacturing lot(s) there was hardware mistake (missing (3.9pF 500V) capacitors) in SDS1202X-E.
If you think there is problem in your individual scope please show images and perfect explanation how it was tested.
ETA:
I also had one bad startup up on the first day where it hung on the siglent boot screen. what do you guys think?
It feels bit strange. If you find any problem it is possible (but rare) that you have get "monday morning" unit.
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Old problen in some SDS1202X-E was between band 1 and 2. (using fine adjust it can hear BW change (relay click) just between 118mV/div and 120mV/div)
Doh - How could I miss that?
Of course there cannot be any change between 500mV/div and 1V/div. So this must be something completely different.
If you think there is problem in your individual scope please show images and perfect explanation how it was tested.
Yes, indeed. I think we should rule out other error sources before you send your unit back just to find out that the next one behaves exactly the same...
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I was wondering if anyone knew if this issue also applies to the sds1104x-e. I'm seeing a similar issue between 1v and 500mv div. My serial is SDSMMDBQ2R and I also purchased it from amazon. I'm thinking of returning it and buying one from saelig to hopefully get one from a different, maybe newer batch. With this unit from amazon, I also had one bad startup up on the first day where it hung on the siglent boot screen. what do you guys think?
Thanks,
Eric
Can be a calibration issue. I'd first do autocal carefully following the manual (e.g., warm up for at least 30mins, detach leads, etc). I think mr. tautech can add more.
Also be sure you do measurements when probes are in 10x position.
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Regardless, it failed to boot once on the first day I had it. That's disconcerning and it's going back while I still have the 30 day return.
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Regardless, it failed to boot once on the first day I had it. That's disconcerning and it's going back while I still have the 30 day return.
Probably not necessary but do what gives you confidence in the product.
What you have from buying from Amazon is a seller that does not check products before dispatch or install latest firmware that might have fixed any rare/random boot failure.
There has been new firmware and you didn't say which version is in your unit.
The latest for 4ch X-E's is 6.1.26.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)
The compensation issue is long remedied unless you have a NOS unit and rf-loop has described how to check yours.
It must be done with probe set to 10x and input menu probe setting set to 10x too.
There are several screenshots earlier in this thread that show the issue clearly for you to compare against.
Just to confirm what others have said; there is no input compensation issues with SDS1*04X-E DSO's.
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Performa01: Thank you for the welcome!, This is my first time writing on the forum though I've been reading and searching on here for a while. I'm a computer engineer trying to build back up my analog skills and this forum has been the best resource I've seen on line for building up practical skills and is a great expansion to all the youtube videos out there.
exe: thanks for the recommendation of self-cal after 30min of warmup, I neglected to wait enough time to warmup, my digital mind overlooks these things.
tautech: I did the firmware upgrade, it came shipped with 6.1.25 R2 and I just upgraded last night to 6.1.26 and then did a self-cal after waiting 30min.
rf-loop: I really appreciate the thorough details and the explanation of the band changes and the old issue between ch1 and ch2 on the 1202x-e, that's another thing for me to check, though my unit is an 1104x-e
I do have another question, and I really apologize if it seems like I'm hijacking a thread. I should probably just start another thread (let me know if I'm in the wrong). I'm just trying to put my scope through all the paces and see if I can find any issues/quirks before I'm committed to this unit. I just got the software and screenshots working, siglent could do a better job at describing where to get the driver and using the easyscope software. Now I just need to get the ethernet working.
Is it normal to have a 5 to 10mv offset in the AC coupling mode, no probe connected, x10 setting, 5mv vertical, all timebasese?
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Performa01: Thank you for the welcome!, This is my first time writing on the forum though I've been reading and searching on here for a while. I'm a computer engineer trying to build back up my analog skills and this forum has been the best resource I've seen on line for building up practical skills and is a great expansion to all the youtube videos out there.
exe: thanks for the recommendation of self-cal after 30min of warmup, I neglected to wait enough time to warmup, my digital mind overlooks these things.
tautech: I did the firmware upgrade, it came shipped with 6.1.25 R2 and I just upgraded last night to 6.1.26 and then did a self-cal after waiting 30min.
rf-loop: I really appreciate the thorough details and the explanation of the band changes and the old issue between ch1 and ch2 on the 1202x-e, that's another thing for me to check, though my unit is an 1104x-e
I do have another question, and I really apologize if it seems like I'm hijacking a thread. I should probably just start another thread (let me know if I'm in the wrong). I'm just trying to put my scope through all the paces and see if I can find any issues/quirks before I'm committed to this unit. I just got the software and screenshots working, siglent could do a better job at describing where to get the driver and using the easyscope software. Now I just need to get the ethernet working.
Is it normal to have a 5 to 10mv offset in the AC coupling mode, no probe connected, x10 setting, 5mv vertical, all timebasese?
It is not normal (if all other things are normal) but before it can really say:
Just for sidenote:
Due to 10X setting your scope real offset is 0.5 - 1mV (1 - 2 division)
Probe multiplier setting in scope input menu do not change anything in front end. Only displayed level numbers change.
Have you done Self Cal after 30min (30min is really minimum)
And it need do so that nothing is connected to input BNC's (Nothing means that really nothing, example if you keep probe connected but probe is not connected to anything, it is error. Input BNC's need be empty and open (exept if you have BNC metal caps without center connection)
Also in Utility menu there is Quick-Cal. Keep it normally ON.
Is it really normal or not, it is more easy to answer if you follow next.
I will ask you do this next - exactly:
1.
Independent of if you have previously done selfcal or not, do it now. Turn your scope on and wait least over 30-45min (without notable environment temperature changes) (waiting time you can still use it if you like)
After continuously power on least 30-45min disconnect all, if there is anything, from the input terminals so input BNC's are just empty.
2.
Press Default button.
3.
Start SelfCal and leave it alone running it. During selfcal let it run alone without touching it (and specially do not touch inputs).
4.
After selfcal. Scope still running.
Check that Quick-Cal is On
5.
Still do not connect anything to input BNC's.
Then without any other changes do next things only.
Push Ch4 selection (channel turns on) and turn Vertical for 500uV/div. Do not adjust vertical position. Set BandWidth (BW) to 20M then do same for Ch3, then Ch2 and then Ch1. (and of course all they are now DC coupled and BW and ) If they are over each others or not just do not care and do not adjust anything)
Turn trigger level to top, 2.25mV.
6.
Do not keep your fingers or anything near inputs (and of course nothing connected)
Save screen image to USB
7.
After 6. then do nothing else but push Ch4 selection and set CH4 coupling to AC, Then Ch3, then Ch2, then Ch1 (other things just stay still like step 5 and 6.)
Save screen image to USB
Show these both images.
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rf-loop, Thanks so much for the help. I followed your directions exactly. Here are the results.
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Weird.
How your t/div is 200us/div if you have done position 2. "push default"
1us/div is factory default.
Have you stored your own defaults for "Default" button? (yes it can do)
If you have not done this, then good question is: Who have done it?
When you first time turn it on and look "system status" for check what FW there is, do you remember what was Startup Times counter. Normally after factory it is 0 and when you star it there is then just 1.
For return Default button (and other things) back to factory state
(under display these rectangle buttons can think F1 - F6)
Push "Save/Recall" button
Then F2 (Recall)
then F1 (Type Setups) and select "Factory Default"
Then F5 (Press To Recall)
After then your scope is in known state and Default button have factory defaults.
But then this main issue. Specially this amount of Ch1 offset change between input coupling DC and AC (there can be some because if there is example unsymmetric noise, trace is in AC center what may differe from zero. (I mean something like this: Example if you connect 10% +1V / 90% -1V duty square wave and coupling AC you see center is near -1V )
I have never seen this and I have tested many SDS1kX-E scopes. Now if there is some
If it is in my hands I do bit more some tests for analyze bit more what is going on there.
Also you told that first start up fails (Stuck with "Siglent" bootup screen) .
Together with these things
Perhaps it is not wise to loose more time with analyzing it, specially if you do not have experience and equipment for more deep tests.
I will recommend you return it back to this carton box broker "Amazon" whose only expertise is money reception and packet delivery.
Attached image show how it is typically (fresh selfcal and inputs open) Of course individual scopes may differ some but imho not like your Ch1
DC Coupled
AC Coupled
Note that when QuickCal is ON it traces may some times adjust offset and it may move trace some amount.
True offset hardware step is bit rough because sure there is not over 20bit DAC for it.
Offset full range is 4V and if (just example) step is one 500uV div it mean 13bit and sure there is more resolution but not for 20uV resolution what is vertical position adjustment resolution on the screen using position adjustment knob.
Quite normal is that with open input and 500uV/div trace average may differ around 200 - 500uV. Least I think it is normal. But you have clearly more. Specially Ch1
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The main difference between DC/AC is a capacitor in series with the input of the low frequency path of the input buffer, which typically is some OpAmp.
Ideally, the voltage across this capacitor should be zero, but in reality there will always build up some charge because of funny physical effects and - depending on the actual circuit - also through the input current of the OpAmp (which should be very low, because it's usually JFET inputs).
Because of this, we will always see some minor offset shift as can also be seen in the screenshots of rf-loop.
Engreric, your screenshots clearly show an unexpected behavior, hence this unit should be returned. This sample either has bad capacitors or OpAmps with excessive input current.
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There is an option to turn Quick-Cal on or off in the Utility menu. There is no mention of this in the SDS1202X-E manual. Does anyone know exactly what this feature does??
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There is an option to turn Quick-Cal on or off in the Utility menu. There is no mention of this in the SDS1202X-E manual. Does anyone know exactly what this feature does??
Quick-Cal or should we say ‘hidden cal’ was an undocumented feature that predominantly ran while the DSO was warming up.
Member rf-loop bought it to our attention a few months back and asked Siglent for a way to control its behaviour and subsequently they added control for it in a recent firmware release.
So this was applied to 2 and 4 ch models.
See here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1852547/#msg1852547 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1852547/#msg1852547)
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I should ask as its at least somewhat on topic, For these scopes, it seems only the DC calibration is stored?
for the 500uV-100mV attenuator range, I have a slightly misbehaving channel 3, DC is dead on, AC is 1.2mV high, and its been consistent over a few days of testing.
In the same boat, 3 of the channels are 300uV under when set to ground coupling. I can understand this is beyond the specifications of the scope, just curious why calibrating AC coupling for the lower ranges wasn't a thing?
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I see a similar de-compensation issue with my SDS1202X (not the -E version) and wondered if anyone had similar before and done rework on the front-end compensation components of this older model?
The specific problem in my SDS1202X is essentially a shelving of the response, a drop of ~0.6db between ~300kHz and ~3MHz. The response is acceptably flat from DC to ~280kHz and again flat from ~3.3MHz to 100MHz. Testing with a signal generator sweep shows what looks like a simple single pole shelf response in the affected range, so I'm guessing replacing a single cap or resistor could fix the issue - (if I knew which one!). Btw. the problem is very similar on both channels and at all vertical gains.
Below capture from the scope is an example of how the issue appears in the time domain - a rather droopy looking rendition of a 1 MHz square wave. A 1kHz or a >4 MHz square wave looks fine, as expected given the range of affected frequencies.
Test conditions for below plot: Scope warmed up for 1 hour. Two different signal generators used on channel 1 and channel 2. Signal generators first tested with two other scopes with no issues – 1 MHz square wave seen as "square". 50 Ohm coax connections with both channels properly 50 Ohm terminated at scope.
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I see a similar de-compensation issue with my SDS1202X (not the -E version) and wondered if anyone had similar before and done rework on the front-end compensation components of this older model?
The specific problem in my SDS1202X is essentially a shelving of the response, a drop of ~0.6db between ~300kHz and ~3MHz. The response is acceptably flat from DC to ~280kHz and again flat from ~3.3MHz to 100MHz. Testing with a signal generator sweep shows what looks like a simple single pole shelf response in the affected range, so I'm guessing replacing a single cap or resistor could fix the issue - (if I knew which one!). Btw. the problem is very similar on both channels and at all vertical gains.
Below capture from the scope is an example of how the issue appears in the time domain - a rather droopy looking rendition of a 1 MHz square wave. A 1kHz or a >4 MHz square wave looks fine, as expected given the range of affected frequencies.
Test conditions for below plot: Scope warmed up for 1 hour. Two different signal generators used on channel 1 and channel 2. Signal generators first tested with two other scopes with no issues – 1 MHz square wave seen as "square". 50 Ohm coax connections with both channels properly 50 Ohm terminated at scope.
I can't say for sure if the 1202X-E input stage alignment instructions attached in Reply #57 are also correct for your SDS1202X but for the 1M inputs they should be close.
You can run with those and see what the result is without even dismantling the scope.
You'll need 1.2Vp-p and 12Vp-p square wave at 10 KHz.
Let us know how they look based on Siglent's 1202X-E alignment instructions and we can get further info from the factory if required.
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Thanks tautech. The 10kHz signals (attached) look ok. The problem area on my SDS1202X is more in the 300kHz-3MHz range, so maybe different to the SDS1202X-E issue.
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Thanks tautech. The 10kHz signals (attached) look ok.
OK they are but certainly not perfect, that is when we were doing the X-E rework your displayed result would not have been acceptable.
The problem area on my SDS1202X is more in the 300kHz-3MHz range, so maybe different to the SDS1202X-E issue.
Maybe but I suspect not so much, in that the range where you see a problem could be some relic of a drifted front end adjustment. However I'll drop tech support an email and see if they can offer advice or hopefully a remedy.
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Many thanks tautech. Very much appreciated.