Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 76268 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2017, 11:15:16 am »
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.

The WiFi is a paid option.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2017, 11:19:38 am »
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?

Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2017, 11:59:02 am »
Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
It's two channel sibling appears to have compensation issues that require the user to do a board level repair to fix. It might be interesting to see whether the four channel model has these issues too.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2017, 08:39:50 pm »
I hope they fix the typo 1 Ga/s on the nameplate before production:/

Do not worry.


If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2017, 09:24:31 pm »
Because of sampling rate it may be possible Siglent will focus on the 100MHz on the 4ch version in EU.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2017, 10:37:26 pm »
Because of sampling rate it may be possible Siglent will focus on the 100MHz on the 4ch version in EU.

Why? Can you give some reasonings.

I think  well done Sinc interpolation together with 500MSa/s is enough for 200MHz. (of course these are based to sine waves, always)

You can see here 500MSa/s is enough. Just  Reply #97 in this thread yesterday.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1335055/#msg1335055

But I'm interested to listen your opinion and reasoning.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2017, 10:46:34 pm »
About the 2 channels Siglent brought the 200MHz X-E only to EU. In China is also available 100MHz.
It is a commercial consideration only. I agree with you the 200MHz 4ch spec are good too.
We will discover this in 2 weeks.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2017, 11:04:27 pm »
About the 2 channels Siglent brought the 200MHz X-E only to EU. In China is also available 100MHz.
It is a commercial consideration only. I agree with you the 200MHz 4ch spec are good too.
We will discover this in 2 weeks.

Yes, domestic market in China is different.
We can see there many other Siglent equipments models than here in outside China markets.
Example 1074X-E, 1104X-E and 1204X-E
Same  also with two channel models.
Noted also that inputs are not direct copy from 2 channel models. 2 channel models input capacitance 18pF and 4 channel models 15pF.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #108 on: October 30, 2017, 12:30:45 am »
Why?

Because real signals are often not sine and bandwidth does not abruptly stop at 200MHz. There are details like small ringing, etc that will be washed out with too low sampling rate.

Same for bandwidth: more bandwidth == less amplitude distortion (and more picked noise). And scopes normally have more bandwidth than advertised.

So, I don't see the reason why there "must" be any relation between bandwidth and sampling rate. Each parameter independently improves capturing. What makes sense to me is to have a "balanced" solution in terms of BW, sampling rate and price.

Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #109 on: October 30, 2017, 01:31:30 am »
Why?

Because real signals are often not sine and bandwidth does not abruptly stop at 200MHz. There are details like small ringing, etc that will be washed out with too low sampling rate.

Same for bandwidth: more bandwidth == less amplitude distortion (and more picked noise). And scopes normally have more bandwidth than advertised.

So, I don't see the reason why there "must" be any relation between bandwidth and sampling rate. Each parameter independently improves capturing. What makes sense to me is to have a "balanced" solution in terms of BW, sampling rate and price.

Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

Bandwidth mean sinewave bandwidth of course.

If people have NOT sinewave signal what base frequency is 200MHz and he use 200MHz BW oskilloscope and he think or wants  he must also see these harmonics or other over 200MHz components in signal he is just telling he need more lessons.
It is essential to understand basics before start using tools. Even if tool is hammer or oscilloscope or particle accelerator.
200MHz oscilloscope is not for measure or display right at all even 1Hz signal if it means example 1Hz square wave and need measure its frequency components up to example 1GHz for measure its rising edge.


Oscilloscopes mostly have gaussian type BW shape.

Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

It is not first time when I tell that instead of hack scope for more wide BW it is perhaps more wise to modify these for rejected BW specially so that BW shape is more like brickwall type than slow decay gaussian. Just for avoid aliasing what is many times lot of under estimated and poorly understood thing.

And this must say. 500MSa/s 200MHz oscilloscope is really easy with signals what have over 250MHz frequency components in signal under test and it leads aliasing and this is math, it is not oscilloscope brand. User need understand how to avoid these traps and not be fooled by scope screen or displayed numbers in these cases. This need knowledge and experience (as all things need).
Also due to Sinc interpolation parameter compromises some not so nice things start more or less below fNyquist.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #110 on: October 30, 2017, 02:09:15 am »
And this must say. 500MSa/s 200MHz oscilloscope is really easy with signals what have over 250MHz frequency components in signal under test and it leads aliasing and this is math, it is not oscilloscope brand. User need understand how to avoid these traps and not be fooled by scope screen or displayed numbers in these cases.

This is why I disable interpolation and I prefer scopes with faster sampling -- I don't want see artifacts of interpolation.

So, I didn't get it if you are agree with me or not, but I stand my ground. Faster sampling is better. More BW is better (if you can limit it when full BW is not needed to avoid noise pickup, my scope can do this).

Perhaps, extra samples may help reducing interpolation errors, too.


Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #111 on: October 30, 2017, 02:56:39 am »


SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.

My Tektronix nameplate read 150MHz and it is stated also in data sheet. Its measured -3dB point is around 250MHz.  It can easy show and trig far over 500MHz signal. "Assumption" it is 150MHz oscilloscope is wrong? Tektronix have told it is 150MHz oscilloscope. They need not tell how wrong it display over this nameplate frequency. It is user education problem and nothing more.
Nameplate 150MHz do not violate anything and it is right.  It is user problem if he insert over 150MHz signal and then displayed result is too far away from some kind of more os less imagined or known "truth".
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #112 on: October 30, 2017, 05:15:08 am »
Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
No it's not, sure it will display 300+ MHz but greatly attenuated.
A quick check I did a couple of months back on SDS1202X-E:
Recent -3dB point check using freshly acquired HP 500 MHz sig gen.

10 mV source signal, BNC connection through Tek 1:1 50 ohm BNC inline feedthrough.
Slight discrepancy in frequency measurements but despite this indicates the -3dB point is ~240 MHz.

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #113 on: October 30, 2017, 05:29:42 am »
Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.
SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
What counts is the -3dB point referenced to a relatively low frequency like somewhere between 100kHz and 10MHz. Any oscilloscope will show signals with frequencies above it's nameplate bandwidth because it doesn't have a brickwall input filter. You also have to be aware that there are many more things which attenuate a signal between the probing point and the input of the ADC in the oscilloscope. The actual high frequency content of a signal from a regular probe will be attenuated way more then the signal from a signal generator. As a rule of thumb you need 50 Ohm inputs and special (low-Z probes for example) to measure signals over 100MHz accurately because regular probes load these signals too much. The discussion here is kinda moot anyway.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TD-Linux

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #114 on: October 30, 2017, 11:58:47 am »
The choice of sampling rate vs bandwidth is mostly an engineering and cost optimization question. You only need 2x the bandwidth in terms of sample rate in order to accurately reproduce a band limited signal. The difficulty is band-limiting it, which must be done by an analog filter. A sharper filter is more expensive to implement, and introduces additional noise and non-linearity. So instead, you can use a gentler filter and sample at a higher rate so that the attenuation of the filter at half the sample rate is acceptable. Then you apply the rest of the filtering via a software low pass filter to get a sharp passband (or at least you would in audio).

I think a lot of scopes skip out on the last software filtering step because engineers would rather have lower-than-expected response at high frequencies rather than none at all.

As long as Siglent has sharp enough analog filters, there should be no problem with 200MHz across all four channels. It would be good to test for aliasing with all four channels enabled though, in case they didn't.

If you aren't familiar with digital sampling, I'd suggest watching Monty's video on the subject: https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
 

Offline TimInCanada

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #115 on: October 30, 2017, 03:00:16 pm »
Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

For the all-time winner of BW/Sampling rate ratio, I nominate the HP 54610B: 500 MHz / 20MSa/s.  25:1.  Beat that!   :-+
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #116 on: October 30, 2017, 04:52:24 pm »
Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

For the all-time winner of BW/Sampling rate ratio, I nominate the HP 54610B: 500 MHz / 20MSa/s.  25:1.  Beat that!   :-+

Tektronix 7854  800:1
(400MHz BW  with  0.5MSa/s 10 bit digitizer and waveform calculator.)

But, is it better to separate real time (single shot) and many kind of repetitive systems. Even with 1Hz sampler you can 1GHz and this is not limit. Only reconstruction time is limit.

I think good  "Rule of thumb" for real time scopes with well implemented Sinc interpolation is: BW max f  = fsample/2.5  or (fNyquist /1.25 = max BW)

In theory we can go more close and even up to (fNyquist but oscilloscope need fast step response so we can not take lot of samples and then calculate (filter). Sinc  interpolation filter what give acceptable level accuracy with 2.5 samples for one sine cycle is good compromise.

In well done oscilloscope: User can always select interpolation mode Sinc or vectors - and due to good education user know how to use these and how to read screen. And also there must be true interpolation off or on. (dots/lines) (not as some scopes do in dot modes they generaate fake dots between sample points. This is most stupid what I have seen if this feature can not turn off or least turn real sample points highlight on if scope have this fake dots total stupidity.
It also need be possible as post processing with stored acquisitions (example oscilloscope stopped  or for stored segments or normal running waveform buffer.  If oscilloscope do not draw Sinc  via true sampled points enough accurate it can say it is made for garbage collection.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 05:31:55 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #117 on: October 30, 2017, 05:31:44 pm »
Please guys, can we talk about the new scope?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2017, 05:33:24 pm »
Please guys, can we talk about the new scope?

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2017, 05:45:22 pm »
waiting mode engaged
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2017, 05:57:53 pm »

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Dave had some good intel.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2017, 06:16:16 pm »

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Dave had some good intel.
He is not alone.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2017, 06:33:11 pm »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2017, 06:54:48 pm »
He is not alone.
Spill the beans!
There's only so much as beta testers we can tell.....NDA and all that.  :-X

But you can glean quite a lot from translating the Chinese datasheet and user manual.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2017, 07:11:21 pm »
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?

Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
Do you know if it will be fully optioned Dave ?
WiFi, AWG and Digital pod ?

I've only used the AWG as the Wifi dongle and digital pod weren't shipped with my unit.  :(
Any of the Siglent AWG's can be controlled with the UI so you can use the Bode plot feature.
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