Author Topic: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog  (Read 226833 times)

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Offline Rick

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2013, 03:17:19 am »

(yes it works as long as keep DC coupling selected.)


Right, I missed that point, Auto (in 1x mode) works in DC and not in AC. I did not play enough with it.


Note. It looks like it is related to frequency. If I use external generator for 1kHz and 3V square also B ok. But only if frequency is enough different as scope own 1kHz. Scope own 1kHz is derived from scope clock.  If I use external 1kHz what is enough close scope own 1kHz result is same (fail) as with scope own 1kHz probe comp signal.  For more fun, result is same if I use external signal but adjusted enough close to what scope think is very close 10kHz and same with very close 100kHz.

I had only 2 different crystal oscillators to play with: 10 Mhz and 50 Mhz so I could only visualize their signal.

So this is a firmware issue not a hardware one, at least there is hope that they will fix it in the future versions.
Thanks rf-loop.
 

Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2013, 07:26:23 pm »
I recently started having a problem with the auto button of my SDS1102CML. When making measurements with the x10 setting of the probe it almost always expands the signal to fit the entire screen. But with the x1 setting of the probe most of the time it compresses the view (increases the time base and reduces the amplitude) so that you do not see any detail and have to adjust both the time base and the amplitude. Is there any particular reason for that?
P.S. This occurs mainly when visualizing the reference square wave of the scope. With an external signal there is no such problem.
Thank you for your attention,
this problem has been sloved, you can upgrade to the latest version from the http://www.siglent.com/cn/server/download.aspx?nodecode=105004002006

Exept that it is not repaired in version 5.01.02.13
(yes it works as long as keep DC coupling selected.)
This happend example if there is default settings before Auto setup or least no one have changed coupling to AC. )

How it works:

A:
Input setting DC
probe and scope set for probe factor 1x
Connect probe to 1kHz probe compensation output.

Works perfect,
Base line move to vertical center(if not there before), CH1 change to 1V/div and horizontal speed 250us/div 

B:
Input setting AC
probe and scope set for probe factor 1x
Connect probe to 1kHz probe compensation output.

Autoset give poor result (fail)

Base line move to vertical center(if not there before) - this ok. Trigger level setting also ok, CH1 change to 2V/div (error) and horizontal speed 50ms/div (error), and signal is 1.5div high (-0.75 to +0.75div related to base line.)


C:
Input setting DC
probe and scope set for probe factor 10x
Connect probe to 1kHz probe compensation output.

Works perfect,
Base line move to vertical center(if not there before), CH1 change to 1V/div and horizontal speed 250us/div. Signal is 3div high, ( 0 to +3div related to base line)


D:
Input setting AC
probe and scope set for probe factor 10x
Connect probe to 1kHz probe compensation output.

Works perfect.
Base line move to vertical center(if not there before), CH1 change to 500mV/div and horizontal speed 250us/div.  Signal is 6 div high. (-3div to +3div related to baseline)

Result:
B fails, A,C and D ok.



On this issue, because Auto algorithm 's sake, in dealing with AC and DC coupling process caused
, and in the next version of the Auto algorithms are optimized , and the default is DC coupled.


SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES CO.,LTD
 

Offline David Aurora

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2013, 08:22:52 pm »
I have the same scope, and about a day after I bought it a few weeks back I saw a post somewhere basically saying they had reached the end of their life cycle and would get no more updates. I hope that's not right, because I have to say that after using mine (with the latest firmware) for a few weeks it is dicky as hell. They definitely need to take another stab at making these things work properly. Lockups, intermittent wildly incorrect measurements (the other day I noticed that from one stable source I got 3 different readings on 3 different vertical settings. I'm not talking millivolts either, I'm talking +/-25%, an obvious bug), quite a few bizarre bits of behaviour.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2013, 09:17:43 pm »
I have the same scope, and about a day after I bought it a few weeks back I saw a post somewhere basically saying they had reached the end of their life cycle and would get no more updates. I hope that's not right, because I have to say that after using mine (with the latest firmware) for a few weeks it is dicky as hell. They definitely need to take another stab at making these things work properly. Lockups, intermittent wildly incorrect measurements (the other day I noticed that from one stable source I got 3 different readings on 3 different vertical settings. I'm not talking millivolts either, I'm talking +/-25%, an obvious bug), quite a few bizarre bits of behaviour.

Please can you show data about signal used for test and  documents about this error, including oscilloscope model, FW and HW versions. Also document about scope settings and how test signal is conneted.  This is only way to try solve possible problems. 

I have used Tektronix oscilloscope calibrator (CG5011 and CG5010) and never seen this kind of amount of error, and I have tested every single scope what I heve sold.

--------

End of life cycle?  SDS1000L serie. Not.

Even after new SDS2000 and possible SDS3000 serie SDS1000L do not go obsolete.

Just we have get  (perhaps first) series 5.xxxxxxx FW   after many 3.xxxxx FW's


Siglent have officially informed what models are end of life cycle and production stopped. (this information they give time ago and before production stopped) (support continue as example warranty services and spare parts etc)
 
Example SDS1102CM  (and other old 5.7" display old SDS1000 models.  This information is official and list and dates can read in Siglent official sides.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline echen1024

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2013, 07:05:55 am »
The SDSxxxxxxL series is DEFINITELY not obsolete. I believe they were released in 2013, and correct me if I'm wrong, replaced the 5.7" displays, which I believe was officially EOL'd on April 22, 2013. I just bought s SDS1102CNL because I needed a digital scope and my Tektronix 2465 that I got for my 9th birthday went pop. I'll probably try and fix it sometime.  :-BROKE
I'm not saying we should kill all stupid people. I'm just saying that we should remove all product safety labels and let natural selection do its work.

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Offline David Aurora

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2013, 02:12:59 pm »
Phew, glad to hear that! I was a bit pissed off when I saw that post and thought this thing was going to be stuck with these bugs forever.

Yeah when I get time I'll try to sit down with it and document the problems I'm finding properly. So far it's just been a bunch of mid-job WTF moments that I just tried to fix and get back to work immediately rather than explore. The point of my post wasn't so much to get troubleshooting help, it was to point out that the current firmware is still far from perfect and on the (apparently wrong) information that there would be no further refinement that was worrying.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2013, 09:49:50 pm »
Perhaps soon we can see update for FW in Siglent download center.

I have seen this version in factory fresh SDS1000CML scope:
FW: 5.01.02.22
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 09:13:29 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2013, 11:20:15 pm »

On this issue, because Auto algorithm 's sake, in dealing with AC and DC coupling process caused
, and in the next version of the Auto algorithms are optimized , and the default is DC coupled.

This "Auto" problem  is solved, as Siglent told,  in new FW 5.01.02.22
(and some other small changes...)

I hope Siglent update asap they Download center where still read 5.01.02.13

« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 11:23:41 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2013, 09:01:03 pm »
Care to comment on Dave's rusty function generator? It looks like a nice instrument apart from that.
As pointed out above, YouTube is blocked in China...
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2013, 09:39:02 pm »
Care to comment on Dave's rusty function generator? It looks like a nice instrument apart from that.
As pointed out above, YouTube is blocked in China...

Yes but there is Youku.

I have inspected more than just one SDG1000 series and one SDG5000 series. No corrosion/rust at all. Also some other members have looked inside SDG5000 they have and no rust/corrosion.

But, it can develop corrosion too easy, due to material and metal work (perhaps Siglent need give more tight instructions/commands to mechanical parts supplier)

This is not true serioius problem in normal envinronment where these machines are typically used.

But this may happend example after metal case have made and then restored perhaps in very humid or better say wet place before they come inside Siglent factory.  Shenzhen area is very humid and wet many times. Sometimes some cartons may be wet and they stay somewhere outside wet, humid and warm place... I have seen this in china industrial area many many times.

So this quality control need cover also whole production chains, also these sub manufacturers who do some parts of equipment.

Perhaps it is good if Siglent more carefully design also materials what are used for these parts.  And also more tight control when they receive these parts from suppliers. If not meet quality, just return back and tell to supplier that this lot we do not accept. Money is good teacher.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent expand soon to Europe.
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2013, 05:59:27 am »
Siglent is soon expanding "something" also to European Union region.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 09:14:47 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Orange

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2013, 06:35:18 am »
It looks like it's from the same guy who also does atten.eu
No official Siglent factory website !
 

Offline Short Circuit

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2013, 08:58:00 am »
It looks like it's from the same guy who also does atten.eu
No official Siglent factory website !
Indeed, both sites are operated by JR Special Electronics. KVK nr: 52793575 Rivierensingel 325 5704KN Helmond The Netherlands
They put alot of effort into pretending to be official manufacturer websites...  :--
 

Offline israel

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2013, 09:40:55 am »
Hi. Since this waveform generator I have observed this problem.
with a 10 MHz external time base works perfect, but with its internal time base shows a difference in frequency.

that may be the problem and how to fix it?

I contacted by mail with siglent, but apparently you have to recalibrate all equipment by service software. but it seems strange since it is assumed that the instructions should be correct calibration

there is a simpler method?

not see any setting to recalibrate the internal reference oscillator.

Regards.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 09:57:09 am by israel »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2013, 05:37:32 pm »
Hi. Since this waveform generator I have observed this problem.
with a 10 MHz external time base works perfect, but with its internal time base shows a difference in frequency.

that may be the problem and how to fix it?

I contacted by mail with siglent, but apparently you have to recalibrate all equipment by service software. but it seems strange since it is assumed that the instructions should be correct calibration

there is a simpler method?

not see any setting to recalibrate the internal reference oscillator.

Regards.

Your freq counter is not connected to accurate external standard? 

This error what it now show is far out of specs (+/- 100ppm class so error with 10MHz can be +/-1kHz but no more)
.
IF freq counter have no freq error.
What is true error?



There is no freq adjustment for internal oscillator. It is specified for its initial and long term accuracy.
If need  more accuracy, it need use external accurate reference.

If with some undefined reason internal  ref oscillator is out of specification it can of course change.


Inside SDG1000 there is also place for better reference but it need (afaik) also modified FW from Siglent.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline israel

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2013, 06:37:56 pm »
Quote
Your freq counter is not connected to accurate external standard? 

This error what it now show is far out of specs (+/- 100ppm class so error with 10MHz can be +/-1kHz but no more)
.
IF freq counter have no freq error.
What is true error?


The frequency counter has the correct internal oscillator. I have tried other counters and the result is the same, the smaller image corresponds to screenshot of my DSO shows the same error rate  :palm:



Quote
There is no freq adjustment for internal oscillator. It is specified for its initial and long term accuracy.
If need  more accuracy, it need use external accurate reference.

If with some undefined reason internal  ref oscillator is out of specification it can of course change.


with a 10 MHz external reference works perfect. The problem seems to be the internal reference of generator  :-+



Quote
Inside SDG1000 there is also place for better reference but it need (afaik) also modified FW from Siglent.

I have installed the latest firmware


Regards

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2013, 09:18:56 pm »

Quote
Inside SDG1000 there is also place for better reference but it need (afaik) also modified FW from Siglent.

I have installed the latest firmware


Regards

Latest firmware is nothing to do this what I told.

I told, there is place for better freq reference (OCXO). There is allready place for it on the board but it need special FW also what support it. (Time ago Siglent tell me this)
If want install this special option it need instructions from Siglent how to do.


But if just change original default oscillator (and this is now case) to new one it can of course do.

I believe it is now out of limits but your method do not proof it. You have measured it by undefined accuracy. If one DSO have around what also your counter, it do not really proof so much.

For real proof if siglent is out of specs or not and how much it is out of specs you need least +-10ppm true trusted abs accuracy or far better. (oh well it is easy get and perhaps your counter is inside this but this can not be sure with this information what is now.

If it really after trusted measurments is >400ppm off, it is absolutely too much = fail.

If there is warranty, contact first seller what to do.

If seller is just only carton shipper then contact Siglent and ask help for get this back to normal working state. 
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline israel

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2013, 11:06:43 pm »
Quote
Latest firmware is nothing to do this what I told.

I told, there is place for better freq reference (OCXO). There is allready place for it on the board but it need special FW also what support it. (Time ago Siglent tell me this)
If want install this special option it need instructions from Siglent how to do.


But if just change original default oscillator (and this is now case) to new one it can of course do.

I believe it is now out of limits but your method do not proof it. You have measured it by undefined accuracy. If one DSO have around what also your counter, it do not really proof so much.

For real proof if siglent is out of specs or not and how much it is out of specs you need least +-10ppm true trusted abs accuracy or far better. (oh well it is easy get and perhaps your counter is inside this but this can not be sure with this information what is now.

If it really after trusted measurments is >400ppm off, it is absolutely too much = fail.

If there is warranty, contact first seller what to do.

If seller is just only carton shipper then contact Siglent and ask help for get this back to normal working state.


Thank you very much for your reply and clarification.

I apologize if if at some point some of my words are bad interpreted, it is because this is not my native language and I not have a good command.

Actually I know the fact of user firmware does not alter the technical parameters of the system. SIGLENT provided me a procedure and calibration software. but I see too complicated for just this problem. I also assume that the parameters listed in this procedure are those that were loaded at the factory

I have all the data and software needed for calibration, but I dare not publish it without prior approval from SIGLENT.

I tend to think it's more of a hardware problem in the internal 10 MHz reference may be interesting as you indicate replace the internal oscillator.


Best regards,
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2013, 12:46:58 am »
I apologize if if at some point some of my words are bad interpreted, it is because this is not my native language...

Very same about my languaguage. ;)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2013, 12:56:12 am »

I have all the data and software needed for calibration, but I dare not publish it without prior approval from SIGLENT.

Yes, this is good becouse if share these "service level" things to all kind of users it may lead really more problems than good things. Also most of service level calibration etc softwares need some listed or compatible equipments together with software.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Rick

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2013, 06:44:37 pm »
Siglent fixed that "Auto" button problem. I got the new firmware and it works. However if the scope is in AC coupling mode before pressing the "Auto" button, it switches back to DC coupling therefore shifting the signal (with a DC bias) after rescaling it on the screen. May be it's just me being picky. How do other scopes behave (if they do have "Auto" type function of course)?
 

Offline illyesgeza

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2013, 07:20:51 pm »
More problems with SIGLENT SDS1102CML
If you get the Sampling Rate with the command SAMPLE_RATE? you'll get the right one no matter if LONGMEM is selected or not. But if you read the Sampling Rate from address 176 in the WAVDESC than in the case of LONGMEM on you'll get the half of it.
Example:TimeBase is set to 100nS and LONGMEM is on.
If you press the ACQUIRE button you can read 500.0MSa on the scope. That mean 2ns sampling time
Now if you get the trace with the command C1:WF? and read the Sampling Time in the WAVEDESC at offset 176 acordingly to the specification of SDS1000_REMOTE_CONTROL_MANUAL_1.2 you will read 4ns
There are a lot of more bugs. I am wondering why Siglent newer answer to my remarks.
But the most annoying problem is that I can't get all the 1mega data using the Command C1:WF?
I know that with easyscope program you have an option to select LONGMEM, download the data, and save it in .DAV format. unfortunately on my scope the EASYSCOPE dosen't work. I'd like to know if somebody who have a SIGLENT SDS1102CML had ever succeeded to get all the LONGMEM data.
An other problem is the STORE command.
The syntax is: STORE [<trace>, <dest>].
The <dest> parameter can be an USB stick UDSK.
As <trace> parameter you can select a channel or ALL_DISPLAYED
BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT wich is ALL that can't be!!!!!!!!!
I mean ALL as ALL THE CHANNELS.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2013, 08:12:49 pm »
I have updated the firmware of my ATTEN ADS1102CAL with the SIGLENT SDA1102CNL firmware (SDS1000CNL_SSP_V100R005B01D02P13)
Now in the System Status menu I have:
Software version 5.01.02.13
Harware Version  10-61-3.3
Product Type     SDS1102CNL
The serial nuber is the old ADSxxxxxxxxxx

Everything works normaly BUT !!!!!!
I can't find a proper USB driver for USBMTC device
Before the upgrade the EASYSCOPE 3 program has found my scope using the UOWORD.SYS driver
Now the program can't find the scope


You have purchased Atten oscilloscope.

Then you have modified it with Siglent FW (CNL model)

Then you perhaps have added some kind of memory(?) and changed FW for Siglent SDS1102CML.
Or do you now have genuine Siglent product. 

Who knows after these all modifications how it works or not?

If want Siglent product, it is also better to buy Siglent product.

You have Atten product but where is ATTEN support now.
(btw, why you modify it using Siglent FW, why not Atten FW.)


If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline illyesgeza

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2013, 10:34:52 pm »
I used the Siglent firmware because I didn't find any ATTEN firmware and inside the scope is a Siglent hardware
 

Offline echen1024

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Re: Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2013, 06:42:16 am »
I used the Siglent firmware because I didn't find any ATTEN firmware and inside the scope is a Siglent hardware

But there are still differences. Unlike the LeCroy, which is the same thing as a Siglent, you are not sure about the exact Siglent Equiv of your Atten.
I'm not saying we should kill all stupid people. I'm just saying that we should remove all product safety labels and let natural selection do its work.

http://www.youtube.com/user/echen1024
 


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