Signal Hound BB60C

[hendorog]

I can see you are sending
 HELLO EEVBLOG !!! FROM JOE Q SMITH !!!!
in ASCII in your data

Haha, love it!

[joeqsmith]

  I wondered if anyone was going to catch that.   

The old PC is almost 10 years old! Trying to see what compatibility problems I will run into next.  I wonder if my DOS games will still run.

Some friends of mine play a lot of video games and told me to get an M.2 drive.  I was planning on two SSDs on RAID 0.  Windows 10 boots from it.  Wow!    Now where is the printer port???!!!

[bson]

I never even thought about it until after I got the PC that I had forgotten about needing a printer port.  I guess that's a thing of the past now but will need it to run my PROM programmer.

Just pick up a TL866 programmer from eBay or Amazon... download the latest software from http://www.autoelectric.cn/en/TL866_main.html

Cheap.  Nothing fancy, but it works.

[joeqsmith]

I never even thought about it until after I got the PC that I had forgotten about needing a printer port.  I guess that's a thing of the past now but will need it to run my PROM programmer.

Just pick up a TL866 programmer from eBay or Amazon... download the latest software from http://www.autoelectric.cn/en/TL866_main.html

Cheap.  Nothing fancy, but it works.

Thanks for the link.  Nice little programmer.  Looks like they don't support the Xilinx and Altera serial PROMs. Other than that, it looks much better than what I have now.     

[KE5FX]

As it turns out, my Ethernet GPIB controllers from National Instruments are no longer supported.  Of course the drivers will not work under Windows 10.  To replace the two would be in the $2600 range.       And this is why I don't buy hardware from NI.  Why NI feels I need 1G to talk on GPIB      Of course there is other software that will not run on it as well.   Set up VirtualBox with Windows XP 32.  Installed all the old software along with Labview and the GPIB drivers.  And...... IT WORKS!   What a way to cripple a new PC. 

The GPIB-ENET boxes have actually been unsupported officially since Vista, possibly earlier.  I don't have one myself, but a user of my GPIB freeware sent a workaround that I added to the FAQ.  If you do want to use them under Windows 10, go here and search for "Q. How can I use a National Instruments GPIB-ENET adapter under Windows XP or Vista?"  If the utility in that zipfile still runs, it will probably be possible to get them working.

To be fair to NI, those boxes are, what, probably 20 years old now?  At some point every vendor is going to stop writing drivers for any given combination of hardware and OS.  The Ethernet box shouldn't need any drivers, of course, but at the time they came out, it probably seemed like a perfectly reasonable strategy for NI to create their own address configuration scheme.  When 16-bit Windows and DOS apps stopped being supported by Microsoft, so did their config tool.

[joeqsmith]

As it turns out, my Ethernet GPIB controllers from National Instruments are no longer supported.  Of course the drivers will not work under Windows 10.  To replace the two would be in the $2600 range.       And this is why I don't buy hardware from NI.  Why NI feels I need 1G to talk on GPIB      Of course there is other software that will not run on it as well.   Set up VirtualBox with Windows XP 32.  Installed all the old software along with Labview and the GPIB drivers.  And...... IT WORKS!   What a way to cripple a new PC. 

The GPIB-ENET boxes have actually been unsupported officially since Vista, possibly earlier.  I don't have one myself, but a user of my GPIB freeware sent a workaround that I added to the FAQ.  If you do want to use them under Windows 10, go here and search for "Q. How can I use a National Instruments GPIB-ENET adapter under Windows XP or Vista?"  If the utility in that zipfile still runs, it will probably be possible to get them working.

To be fair to NI, those boxes are, what, probably 20 years old now?  At some point every vendor is going to stop writing drivers for any given combination of hardware and OS.  The Ethernet box shouldn't need any drivers, of course, but at the time they came out, it probably seemed like a perfectly reasonable strategy for NI to create their own address configuration scheme.  When 16-bit Windows and DOS apps stopped being supported by Microsoft, so did their config tool.

The problem is not setting the the GPIB-ENET.   Setting the IP is easy enough and I use static anyway.     Yes, I would guess in the order of 20 or so years old now, still work fine.   If it were a card plugged into an ISA bus, I could understand but it's Ethernet.   

[KE5FX]

As it turns out, my Ethernet GPIB controllers from National Instruments are no longer supported.  Of course the drivers will not work under Windows 10.  To replace the two would be in the $2600 range.       And this is why I don't buy hardware from NI.  Why NI feels I need 1G to talk on GPIB      Of course there is other software that will not run on it as well.   Set up VirtualBox with Windows XP 32.  Installed all the old software along with Labview and the GPIB drivers.  And...... IT WORKS!   What a way to cripple a new PC. 

The GPIB-ENET boxes have actually been unsupported officially since Vista, possibly earlier.  I don't have one myself, but a user of my GPIB freeware sent a workaround that I added to the FAQ.  If you do want to use them under Windows 10, go here and search for "Q. How can I use a National Instruments GPIB-ENET adapter under Windows XP or Vista?"  If the utility in that zipfile still runs, it will probably be possible to get them working.

To be fair to NI, those boxes are, what, probably 20 years old now?  At some point every vendor is going to stop writing drivers for any given combination of hardware and OS.  The Ethernet box shouldn't need any drivers, of course, but at the time they came out, it probably seemed like a perfectly reasonable strategy for NI to create their own address configuration scheme.  When 16-bit Windows and DOS apps stopped being supported by Microsoft, so did their config tool.

The problem is not setting the the GPIB-ENET.   Setting the IP is easy enough and I use static anyway.     Yes, I would guess in the order of 20 or so years old now, still work fine.   If it were a card plugged into an ISA bus, I could understand but it's Ethernet.   

Hmm.  The only problems I've heard of (at least pre-Windows 10) have been related to the address configuration method that NI used.  It would be interesting to drill down and figure out exactly why they've stopped working in Windows 10, because as you say, it's just Ethernet.   

[joeqsmith]

A while back I had "upgraded" Labview and later discovered that they had jacked up the serial communications.   As I understand it they had rewrote the VISA interface in .NET.   Some software manager must have felt that was the future and would make things more maintainable.    Once again we are talking about a serial port, technology older than the PC itself!  Dare I say that once again, Windows handles the low level heavy lifting (like it's that complex).  And now we have a company who's whole business is based around T&M who can't figure out how to make a serial port work. 

I spent a fair amount of time working with them to try and sort it out.   They were getting close and actually had a workaround.  In the end, I switched to FTDI for all of my USB serial ports.   

They had jacked up the GPIB at one time.  I get on the phone with their support.  They were unable to replicate a problem that I could replicate on multiple PCs.   It took a few days until I had them walk me through their entire setup.  They had a GPIB controller in the PC, plugged into the the GPIB ENET.   They thought this is how it was used!         

[joeqsmith]

I'm still evaluating the unit.   For the most part I'm pretty happy with it but there are a few things I don't care for. 

You can't turn it off or put it into a deep power down mode.  Using hex to represent a variable size symbol for the demodulation trigger seems like a poor choice.  Why not let me select it.  There is no ASCII decode.

I have yet to try and run it from Labview.  Working on porting some of my other code which is taking a fair amount of time.  Hope to be able to pull the plug on the old P4 in a few weeks. 

[Ivan7enych]

I've spent some time looking at different radio protocols with BB60c. Let me show some pictures.

DECT home phone, a waterfall view in a realtime mode

and a single packet (2FSK with preamble) on FM chart in zero span mode

[Ivan7enych]

FRSky RC transmitter
http://www.frsky-rc.com/

frequency hopping packets over wide area in 2.4GHz range, some weak wifi is also visible here

shape of a single channel

shape of another channel, with some imperfections

decoded packet of data

For me it's rather hard to calculate bits per second rate of unknown signal, to find it I look at FM chart in zero span mode, measure time interval between first 10 pulses in apreamble and then test some round numbers near the calcuated value.

[Ivan7enych]

very cheap 27MHz RC car toy, AM pulses in zero span mode

dialog based car security system, in waterfall view there are visible - 1 short send packet, then short reply from car, then second short send packet, and a long reply from car, as usual 2FSK

a cordless mouse, 2FSK, one packet in FM chart in zero span mode

[Ivan7enych]

another RC controll transmitter, 1w LRS in 440MHz range.
connected directly to input with 40dB attenuator
8 frequency hopping channels, in a waterfall

FM chart in zero span mode, single packet, 2FSK

AM chart in zero span mode, some deviations of output power are visible within a single packet

a single decoded packet in protocol analysis mode

[Ivan7enych]

A small task, made with BB60c and tracking generator (plus directional coupler).

My RC hexacopter have 440MHz control receiver and 1.2G 1W video transmitter. I noticed that receiver looses cencitivity very much near the video transmitter even when transmitter emits nothing in 440MHz range. I think it's input circuit is oversaturated by a very strong signal.

Here is a reflection graph of a 440MHz dipole antenna from receiver, one can see the dipole has good impedance in 440MHz, but also can receive power in 1.34GHz, close to my video Tx range.

I've made a simple low pass filter (3 smd capacitors and 2 pieces of wire as inductors), here is a filter response, -0.4dB in 440MHz and -40dB in 1.2G, which is very good for me.

After combining the filter with the antenna, the reflection looks different, good impedance in 440MHz, some additional resonance at 510MHz (which I don't care of) and no other resonances upper.

That's all, I hope it will be interesting for you.

[joeqsmith]

I've spent some time looking at different radio protocols with BB60c. Let me show some pictures.

DECT home phone, a flow in a realtime mode

and a single packet (2FSK with preamble) on FM chart in zero span mode

Good stuff!   Thanks for the post!   

I'm curious how long you have owned yours if you have had any problems with it.  Are you cooling yours.  Do you unplug it when not in use?

[Ivan7enych]

I've spent some time looking at different radio protocols with BB60c. Let me show some pictures.

DECT home phone, a flow in a realtime mode

and a single packet (2FSK with preamble) on FM chart in zero span mode

Good stuff!   Thanks for the post!   

I'm curious how long you have owned yours if you have had any problems with it.  Are you cooling yours.  Do you unplug it when not in use?

Thank you.

I have it for ~8 months.

There was a problem with sma connector center pin -
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/signal-hound-bb60c/msg998092/#msg998092
As I remember, I've got on ebay 1-4GHz directional coupler with very tight SMA connectors, and attached it to analyzer with short SMA-female-SMA-female adapter. SMA connector on the coupler was so tight that it pushed out center pin of the adapter and that makes some damage to BB60 connector...

Cooling it with a fan and a heatsink should be a good solution, my unit heats up slowly from 27c to ~45c. And this temperature change shifts "store thru" calibration in scalar analysis mode.

[joeqsmith]

I've spent some time looking at different radio protocols with BB60c. Let me show some pictures.

DECT home phone, a flow in a realtime mode

and a single packet (2FSK with preamble) on FM chart in zero span mode

Good stuff!   Thanks for the post!   

I'm curious how long you have owned yours if you have had any problems with it.  Are you cooling yours.  Do you unplug it when not in use?

Thank you.

I have it for ~8 months.

There was a problem with sma connector center pin -
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/signal-hound-bb60c/msg998092/#msg998092
As I remember, I've got on ebay 1-4GHz directional coupler with very tight SMA connectors, and attached it to analyzer with short SMA-female-SMA-female adapter. SMA connector on the coupler was so tight that it pushed out center pin of the adapter and that makes some damage to BB60 connector...

Cooling it with a fan and a heatsink should be a good solution, my unit heats up slowly from 27c to ~45c. And this temperature change shifts "store thru" calibration in scalar analysis mode.

I have not looked into how they connect a tracking generator.  Are the two not locked together when running scalar?  In other words, is this a frequency drift or amplitude?

Have you had any problems with your needing to reset?  Disconnects?    Curious what USB chipset and CPU you are using and if you have any extension cables or a hub?    Reason I ask is I have had mine act up a few times now and have been unable to determine the cause.   

Auto data rate would be a nice feature.   Have you looked at controlling it with their API yet?   

[rs20]

As I remember, I've got on ebay 1-4GHz directional coupler with very tight SMA connectors, and attached it to analyzer with short SMA-female-SMA-female adapter. SMA connector on the coupler was so tight that it pushed out center pin of the adapter and that makes some damage to BB60 connector...

A couple of clarifications -- when you say very tight, do you mean a) that the eBay directional coupler is badly dimensioned, or b) that you did up the connection with more than the recommended 0.45 Nm of torque for a brass SMA connector?

Also, pedantically, when you say SMA-female-SMA-female adapter, do you mean this?:



Because that's male-to-male (it's based on the little centre pin, not on the threaded parts).

[Ivan7enych]

As I remember, I've got on ebay 1-4GHz directional coupler with very tight SMA connectors, and attached it to analyzer with short SMA-female-SMA-female adapter. SMA connector on the coupler was so tight that it pushed out center pin of the adapter and that makes some damage to BB60 connector...

A couple of clarifications -- when you say very tight, do you mean a) that the eBay directional coupler is badly dimensioned, or b) that you did up the connection with more than the recommended 0.45 Nm of torque for a brass SMA connector?

Also, pedantically, when you say SMA-female-SMA-female adapter, do you mean this?:
Because that's male-to-male (it's based on the little centre pin, not on the threaded parts).

This MAC directional coupler and SMA adapter (see photo).

You're right, I meant "female" by its thread. If SMA male-female is relied on center pin, than what about RP-SMA (with hole instead of pin on the same connector) ?

I tightened connectors by hand, I didn't realized I can possibly exceed recommended torque by fingers.

[Ivan7enych]

I have not looked into how they connect a tracking generator.  Are the two not locked together when running scalar?  In other words, is this a frequency drift or amplitude?

Have you had any problems with your needing to reset?  Disconnects?    Curious what USB chipset and CPU you are using and if you have any extension cables or a hub?    Reason I ask is I have had mine act up a few times now and have been unable to determine the cause.   

Auto data rate would be a nice feature.   Have you looked at controlling it with their API yet?

1. Yes, tracking gen is connected with USB to computer and with sync cable to analyzer, the BB60c generates sync pulses on every frequency change.

2. No issues. My laptop - Intel i7, Nvidia Gt640m, and some Intel USB3 chipset

3. No, but I wanted to make a sweep with tracking generator, to sweep in one region and look at another region (to check frequency doubler).
I wrote a small app based on theyr API and published my sweep software here -
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/api-for-standalone-tg44/

[Ivan7enych]

About scalar analysis -

As I understand, BB60C has many frequency bins (27MHz wide), each one is calibrated by amplitude and internal temparature drift (of the amplifier gain). So in usual sweep mode or realtime mode all dBm measurements are correct over all temperature range of the unit.

But in scalar analysis BB60c turns off all corrections and rely on "Store Thru" calibration only, which you must do before any scalar measurement. So first you need to connect output to input, make "Store Thru" calibration and then connect any other DUT.

That works OK until temperature of the unit changes by ~5-10degree, than dB measurements goes off by 1-2dB and software warns you that you must repeat calibration again. So if you start measurements with cold unit, you must reconfigure your setup quickly (between calibration and actual measurement). Or you just need to turn everything on and wait until temperature stabilizes (half an hour at least).

I think much better would be to add external temperature stabilization, but it will require more power than can give one USB port..

Here are my 2 threads about this on HS forum
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/bb60c-tg44-in-sna-mode-resets-store-tru-calibration-every-2-minutes/
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/bb60c-tg44-strange-jumps-on-plot-in-sna-mode/

[joeqsmith]

What I was asking is it because of the frequency drift between the spectrum analyzer and tracking generator or are these two locked together?   

Looking at the manual for the TG44A, they talk about the sync but not the reference.   It looks like the BB60C can supply the reference for the tracking generator.   Do you run it this way?

[Ivan7enych]

What I was asking is it because of the frequency drift between the spectrum analyzer and tracking generator or are these two locked together?   

Looking at the manual for the TG44A, they talk about the sync but not the reference.   It looks like the BB60C can supply the reference for the tracking generator.   Do you run it this way?

I had 2 discussions about this with SH -
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/bb60c-with-10mhz-external-reference-from-tg44-shows-me-large-frequency-deviation/
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/scalar-analysis-why-resolution-is-limited-to-1khz/

The TG44 has 10MHz output (but no 10MHz ref input) which I can connect to bb60c ref input, theoretically.

But 10MHz output is simply an output of internal clock generator, while final frequency calibration of TG44 output is done in software, as a result, TG44 signal output has much better frequency accuracy than it's 10MHz "reference" output.

Current software unfortunately is limited to 1KHz resolution in scalar analysis, the internal frequency calibration of both units is much better than this value, so I see no use to connect 10MHz Ref to each other.

What I want from both units, is better frequency resolution in lower frequency range. I can do external sweep with any other generator and use MaxHold to get a track, but is makes dynamic range much lower. The native combination of TG44 + BB60c actually does 2 sweeps in scalar analysis (one with -10dBm and second with -30dBm) and have > 100dBm dynamic range in this mode.

[joeqsmith]

I had 2 discussions about this with SH -
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/bb60c-with-10mhz-external-reference-from-tg44-shows-me-large-frequency-deviation/
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/scalar-analysis-why-resolution-is-limited-to-1khz/

The TG44 has 10MHz output (but no 10MHz ref input) which I can connect to bb60c ref input, theoretically.

But 10MHz output is simply an output of internal clock generator, while final frequency calibration of TG44 output is done in software, as a result, TG44 signal output has much better frequency accuracy than it's 10MHz "reference" output.

Current software unfortunately is limited to 1KHz resolution in scalar analysis, the internal frequency calibration of both units is much better than this value, so I see no use to connect 10MHz Ref to each other.

What I want from both units, is better frequency resolution in lower frequency range. I can do external sweep with any other generator and use MaxHold to get a track, but is makes dynamic range much lower. The native combination of TG44 + BB60c actually does 2 sweeps in scalar analysis (one with -10dBm and second with -30dBm) and have > 100dBm dynamic range in this mode.

And this temperature change shifts "store thru" calibration in scalar analysis mode.

Locking the 10MHz reference may correct a fair amount of the temperature drift.  I don't have the tracking generator so I can't test it.   You are right, this will not help with resolution or accuracy.   I wonder if they remove the display resolution because customer complained about an error between the generator and spectrum analyzer.   

[Ivan7enych]

Here is frequency temperature drift between TG44 and BB60c

Both units are cold (temperature of BB60c is +28c)
I set 4GHz -30dBm on generator, connect it with -3dB attenuator and 20cm rg316 cable (which have some loss)
BB60c shows me -33.4dBm with 200Hz frequency error

After warmup (+38c) I see -33.7dBm and 85Hz frequency error

after more warmup (+43c) I see the same -33.7dBm and frequency error -15Hz