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Author Topic: Micsig Tablet Oscilloscope tBook mini TO1104 review (100Mhz 4 channel 'scope)  (Read 4370 times)

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Offline nctnico

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The image already shows different trigger level and decode threshold (the 2 yellow symbols at the right side of the screen). My guess would be that the decoding is an entirely different path besides the acquisition and trigger system.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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The samplerate is 400ks/s and yet it can decode a 500kbit/s CAN stream (judging from the correct message checksum).  :wtf: It is almost as if the decoding is a seperate system using a higher samplerate. Once the decoding is released officially I definitely want to dig deeper into it.

Siglent could learn a thing or two from that...
 

Offline thanasisk

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Input filtering
The tBook mini also support input filtering. IMHO input filtering is more useful than high-res mode because the filter cut-off frequency is fixed and the filter can be set to almost any frequency. Also high-high pass filtering can be used. The filter can be set from 30kHz and higher. Unlike my GW Instek GDS-2204E the TO1104 doesn't slow down when filtering with deep memory. I guess the filtering is done inside the FPGA instead of the SoC. I did a test to confirm this and used a frequency sweep to show a long trace combined with input filtering. The long traces makes it impossible to do the filtering on the display data so this test should provide an answer. The trace shows correctly so the input filtering is done inside the FPGA and is not a post-processing function.

Thank you for the thorough review!
Is the input low pass filtering an adequate replacement for high-res/boxcar averaging? Is increased bit resolution visible on the screen?
Theoretically boxcar averaging is a low pass filter with very steep rolloff which i guess has much steeper characteristics than micsigs input LPF implementation...

Could you perhaps show us the effect of the input low pass filtering on the micsig when presented with  a 1khz sine plus wideband awgn from a dds generator with say 30 khz lpf cuttoff?

 

Offline R_G_B_

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One feature missing is a zero function Example when trying to zero out offset errors on current clamps   or sensors attached to the oscilloscope. They have this function on multi meters and some fluke scope meters. I don't know why this functions not implemented as standard on all oscilloscopes.

R_G_B
 
R_G_B
 

Offline nctnico

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Every oscilloscope has a vertical offset control so there you go. Also I've never seen a DC current clamp without offset nulling.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline R_G_B_

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not all D.C current probes will have a complete zero offset error and will have some offset. And having a oscilloscope which is able to zero this out is useful instead of having to use the offset control on the oscilloscope be much more simple. instead of subtracting the offset.


 
R_G_B
 

Offline rigol52

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Excellent review nctnico, thank you.

Do you have possibilities to check and photo presentation of modulated signals,

PA: carrier frequency somewhere between 2 to 30 MHz modulated by audio signal?

Thanks again and best wishes.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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This video from Elektor shows that the user interface is very responsive. I am impressed actually!



Is there any news about the decoding functionality? Which protocols will be supported?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 08:23:21 PM by pascal_sweden »
 
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Offline fishandchips

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verbiage.  Unusual.  The device DOES freeze sometimes.  But I haven't upgraded any firmware since early December.  Oh, one thing, it has micro volt sensitivity and the noise floor is pretty good at that level. 

Also, due to some weird export law in China, you can't buy the battery after the fact.  I highly recommend you buy the battery. 

Have you upgraded the firmware and fixed the issue since then?

If I use it on the desk, can I just plug it into the wall outlet without the need to buy the battery?
 

Offline nctnico

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If I use it on the desk, can I just plug it into the wall outlet without the need to buy the battery?
Yes, but I recommend to buy the battery.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline fishandchips

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Another Micsig TO1104 (tBook mini) review

Samplerate, memory and timebase
The maximum samplerate is 1Gs/s but it is divided over the channels. With 2 channels enabled the samplerate drops to 500Ms/s and with 3 or 4 channels enabled it drops the samplerate to 250Ms/s. The same goes for the memory. There is 28Mpts of memory but with 3 or 4 channels enabled the maximum memory length is 7Mpts.


One thing which is annoying is that when pressing the auto setup it also switches the memory length to automatic instead of the user selected setting. I prefer to stay in control of the memory depth.

User interface
Unfortunately the buttons outside the display area seem unresponsive at some times and take several presses before they react. I guess this is a sensitivity problem for the capacitive sensing circuit Micsig used.


Comparison
If you look at the price and specs then the TO1104 is at the lower end of the spectrum where the GW Instek GDS-1000B series, Keysight DSOX1000 series, Rigol DS1054Z and Siglent SDS1000X / SDS1202X-E are located. Each of these scopes have their advantages and disadvantages. The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels but it is slow to operate, the Keysight DSOX1000 and Siglent SDS1000X / SDS1202X-E only have 2 channels and while the GW Instek GDS-1000B series has 4 channels and the deepest memory of all (with all channels enabled) it has no decoding. It really depends on what you find important to make a choice. One thing is clear: in this price range you have to compromise.


Thanks nctnico for the excellent review. I have a couple of questions:

1. About the maximum sampling rate. In case I use only 2 channels of a 4-channel version of the scope, will the sampling rate for each channel be 500Ms/s or 250Ms/s? Is this the same with the GDS-2204E and the DSOX1102G (500Ms/s per channel since there are only two channels)?

2. Any improvement with the touch sensitivity since your posting? Perhaps a firmware upgrade would improve the situation?

3. I cannot find GW Instek GDS-2204E mentioned in your comparison with various other scopes. How is it compared with the Micsig tBook mini TO1104? Basically, I am trying to decide between the GDS-2204E, one of Micsig's tBook or tBook mini, Keysight's new DSOX1102G and the Rigol 1054Z.

4. Is it possible to hack the Micsig's scopes to get more bandwidth like the Rigol's 1054Z?

5. I suppose one cannot get the 2-channel version first and buy an upgrade kit to upgrade it to the 4-channel version. Am I right?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:26:48 PM by fishandchips »
 

Offline fishandchips

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Re: Micsig TO1104 (similar to Rigol 1104Z)
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2017, 10:24:38 PM »
I spotted it on Amazon first, there are several offers.
with battery $427
without $369
*** These are on 2.8Mpts NOT 28Mpts - see post below ***
https://www.amazon.com/Micsig-Digital-Oscilloscope-TO1104MNB-Optional/dp/B01MYO3149/ref=pd_sbs_328_3
https://www.amazon.com/Micsig-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-TO1104M/dp/B01NB9T7DH/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2

The full memory versions are more expensive ($699 and $429 for the two speed variants of the 4 channels 'scope), see post below.

I ended contacting the sales team and buying direct, the price I paid is more than the offer prices heres (there as a 70MHz to 100MHz free upgrade offer at the time).

Andy

How can I tell which are the full memory versions? The two links you cited are broken.
 

Offline nctnico

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Another Micsig TO1104 (tBook mini) review

Samplerate, memory and timebase
The maximum samplerate is 1Gs/s but it is divided over the channels. With 2 channels enabled the samplerate drops to 500Ms/s and with 3 or 4 channels enabled it drops the samplerate to 250Ms/s. The same goes for the memory. There is 28Mpts of memory but with 3 or 4 channels enabled the maximum memory length is 7Mpts.


One thing which is annoying is that when pressing the auto setup it also switches the memory length to automatic instead of the user selected setting. I prefer to stay in control of the memory depth.

User interface
Unfortunately the buttons outside the display area seem unresponsive at some times and take several presses before they react. I guess this is a sensitivity problem for the capacitive sensing circuit Micsig used.


Comparison
If you look at the price and specs then the TO1104 is at the lower end of the spectrum where the GW Instek GDS-1000B series, Keysight DSOX1000 series, Rigol DS1054Z and Siglent SDS1000X / SDS1202X-E are located. Each of these scopes have their advantages and disadvantages. The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels but it is slow to operate, the Keysight DSOX1000 and Siglent SDS1000X / SDS1202X-E only have 2 channels and while the GW Instek GDS-1000B series has 4 channels and the deepest memory of all (with all channels enabled) it has no decoding. It really depends on what you find important to make a choice. One thing is clear: in this price range you have to compromise.


Thanks nctnico for the excellent review. I have a couple of questions:

1. About the maximum sampling rate. In case I use only 2 channels of a 4-channel version of the scope, will the sampling rate for each channel be 500Ms/s or 250Ms/s? Is this the same with the GDS-2204E and the DSOX1102G (500Ms/s per channel since there are only two channels)?

2. Any improvement with the touch sensitivity since your posting? Perhaps a firmware upgrade would improve the situation?

3. I cannot find GW Instek GDS-2204E mentioned in your comparison with various other scopes. How is it compared with the Micsig tBook mini TO1104? Basically, I am trying to decide between the GDS-2204E, one of Micsig's tBook or tBook mini, Keysight's new DSOX1102G and the Rigol 1054Z.

4. Is it possible to hack the Micsig's scopes to get more bandwidth like the Rigol's 1054Z?

5. I suppose one cannot get the 2-channel version first and buy an upgrade kit to upgrade it to the 4-channel version. Am I right?

I didn't include the GW Instek GDS2204E in the comparison because it is much more expensive. In think of the choices you list the GDS2204E is the most complete scope feature wise but if you have a little extra money to spend it might be a good idea to look at GW Insteks MSO2204AE which is a GDS2204E with 2 function generators and 16 digital channels. In the $500 area you always have to compromise. If you can spend somewhere around $1500 you can end up with a general purpose oscilloscope which does everything well (deep memory, responsive UI, lots of nifty features and firmware which works).

AFAIK you can't hack the MicSig scopes and you can't add 4 channels later. The maximum samplerate for the MicSig mini-tbook (TO1000 series) is 250Ms/s with 4 channels enabled. The GW INstek GDS2000E and MSO2000 have 500Ms/s as maximum samplerate with 4 channels enabled.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline fishandchips

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Another Micsig TO1104 (tBook mini) review

Samplerate, memory and timebase
The maximum samplerate is 1Gs/s but it is divided over the channels. With 2 channels enabled the samplerate drops to 500Ms/s and with 3 or 4 channels enabled it drops the samplerate to 250Ms/s. The same goes for the memory. There is 28Mpts of memory but with 3 or 4 channels enabled the maximum memory length is 7Mpts.


One thing which is annoying is that when pressing the auto setup it also switches the memory length to automatic instead of the user selected setting. I prefer to stay in control of the memory depth.

User interface
Unfortunately the buttons outside the display area seem unresponsive at some times and take several presses before they react. I guess this is a sensitivity problem for the capacitive sensing circuit Micsig used.


Comparison
If you look at the price and specs then the TO1104 is at the lower end of the spectrum where the GW Instek GDS-1000B series, Keysight DSOX1000 series, Rigol DS1054Z and Siglent SDS1000X / SDS1202X-E are located. Each of these scopes have their advantages and disadvantages. The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels but it is slow to operate, the Keysight DSOX1000 and Siglent SDS1000X / SDS1202X-E only have 2 channels and while the GW Instek GDS-1000B series has 4 channels and the deepest memory of all (with all channels enabled) it has no decoding. It really depends on what you find important to make a choice. One thing is clear: in this price range you have to compromise.


Thanks nctnico for the excellent review. I have a couple of questions:

1. About the maximum sampling rate. In case I use only 2 channels of a 4-channel version of the scope, will the sampling rate for each channel be 500Ms/s or 250Ms/s? Is this the same with the GDS-2204E and the DSOX1102G (500Ms/s per channel since there are only two channels)?

2. Any improvement with the touch sensitivity since your posting? Perhaps a firmware upgrade would improve the situation?

3. I cannot find GW Instek GDS-2204E mentioned in your comparison with various other scopes. How is it compared with the Micsig tBook mini TO1104? Basically, I am trying to decide between the GDS-2204E, one of Micsig's tBook or tBook mini, Keysight's new DSOX1102G and the Rigol 1054Z.

4. Is it possible to hack the Micsig's scopes to get more bandwidth like the Rigol's 1054Z?

5. I suppose one cannot get the 2-channel version first and buy an upgrade kit to upgrade it to the 4-channel version. Am I right?

I didn't include the GW Instek GDS2204E in the comparison because it is much more expensive. In think of the choices you list the GDS2204E is the most complete scope feature wise but if you have a little extra money to spend it might be a good idea to look at GW Insteks MSO2204AE which is a GDS2204E with 2 function generators and 16 digital channels. In the $500 area you always have to compromise. If you can spend somewhere around $1500 you can end up with a general purpose oscilloscope which does everything well (deep memory, responsive UI, lots of nifty features and firmware which works).

AFAIK you can't hack the MicSig scopes and you can't add 4 channels later. The maximum samplerate for the MicSig mini-tbook (TO1000 series) is 250Ms/s with 4 channels enabled. The GW INstek GDS2000E and MSO2000 have 500Ms/s as maximum samplerate with 4 channels enabled.

The GDS2204E seems to be the best option if I can spend that much. I guess one good thing about the MicSig scopes is that they have a touch screen. If I were rich, I would have bought the Keysight DSOX3024T or 3034T.

Somewhere in between there is a TO202A with 200MHz 2 channels (2GSa/s, 90Mpts, 500,000 wfms/s) if I can do with only two channels. Honestly speaking, I don't know what specs I need and different manufacturers have different definitions. It is hard for me to make the comparison.

In one of my threads, I recall somebody mentioning that for my applications (university level in electrical/mechanical/mechatronic engineering, seeing outputs from motor drivers, arduino mega or above), I would need about 150MHz.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 11:09:41 PM by fishandchips »
 

Offline fishandchips

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Mikeselectricstuff has a great 65-minute teardown here:
He covers everything but the aux jack output (this looks like a product needing more software refinement).

The video mentioned a few issues: 1. Lack of fine adjustment in both vertical and horizontal time scales. 2. Random reboot. 3. Can't do pinch zoom (in the mini models only?) 4. Even an AC adapter is used, the battery needs to be in the device for it to work. 5. autoscale function is hidden rather than listed explicitly on the right of the screen. 6. lack of serial decode

I would imagine that since all the buttons are virtual buttons, it would be easier to move things around and improve the GUI than traditional scopes.

It has been half a year since the video was made. Have these issues been fixed? Do they happen only to the TO1104 or other scopes made from Micsig?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:16:49 AM by fishandchips »
 

Offline fishandchips

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AFAIK you can't hack the MicSig scopes and you can't add 4 channels later. The maximum samplerate for the MicSig mini-tbook (TO1000 series) is 250Ms/s with 4 channels enabled. The GW INstek GDS2000E and MSO2000 have 500Ms/s as maximum samplerate with 4 channels enabled.

Thanks. Do you mean the following?

For both the 2-channel and 4-channel versions, if I only turn on one channel, I get 1Gs/s. If I turn on two channels, I get 500Ms/s per channel?
 

Offline I4E

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Hello Everyone

Just wanted to say thanks for posting all your reviews and videos online. We've been thinking about contacting Micsig to see about adding their scopes to our product line. Your feedback above was very helpful.

Have a great day!

Sincerely,

Joy Torres
Instruments 4 Engineers
[email protected]
www.instruments4engineers.com

Authorized Rigol Distributor.
Authorized Triarcy Technologies distributor
Authorized Pico-Tech Distributor
Currently in Talks with Siglent about Distributing their products
 

Offline nctnico

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AFAIK you can't hack the MicSig scopes and you can't add 4 channels later. The maximum samplerate for the MicSig mini-tbook (TO1000 series) is 250Ms/s with 4 channels enabled. The GW INstek GDS2000E and MSO2000 have 500Ms/s as maximum samplerate with 4 channels enabled.

Thanks. Do you mean the following?

For both the 2-channel and 4-channel versions, if I only turn on one channel, I get 1Gs/s. If I turn on two channels, I get 500Ms/s per channel?
Yes.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline fishandchips

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From the specs, the TO1104 has bandwidth limit of 20MHz, high pass, low pass while the non-Mini versions do not support high pass and low pass filtering. Does that mean the mini version is better?

Somewhere I read that different manufacturers have different definitions for the max capture rate and memory depth. Am I correct? I am trying to decide among various Micsig models.

For Max capture rate, which would be sufficient and recommended?
80K wfm/s, 250K wfm/s or 500K wfm/s

For memory depth, which would be sufficient and recommended?
18Mpts, 28Mpts or 90Mpts?

Between the two variables, which is more important?
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:25:58 PM by fishandchips »
 

Offline hammy

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Another millennial asking the same questions in several self created threads over and over again.  :palm:
 

Online ruairi

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Another millennial asking the same questions in several self created threads over and over again.  :palm:

It's not as though Millennials are the only ones who breach forum etiquette, I've seen lots of examples from every generation.  As I say often to my 5 year old "We lead by example", not by face palming.

I find the ongoing trope that Millennials are lazy/entitled/self centered to be incredibly tiresome and really just one step removed from racism (the idea of making oneself feel better by putting others down).  I've met lots of 20 year olds who work hard, ask the right questions and spend their days facing challenges that boomers can even imagine.  On the flip side I've met plenty of "grown ups" who were anything but. 

 

Offline nctnico

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From the specs, the TO1104 has bandwidth limit of 20MHz, high pass, low pass while the non-Mini versions do not support high pass and low pass filtering. Does that mean the mini version is better?

Somewhere I read that different manufacturers have different definitions for the max capture rate and memory depth. Am I correct? I am trying to decide among various Micsig models.

For Max capture rate, which would be sufficient and recommended?
80K wfm/s, 250K wfm/s or 500K wfm/s

For memory depth, which would be sufficient and recommended?
18Mpts, 28Mpts or 90Mpts?

Between the two variables, which is more important?
I'd go for the deepest memory. Waveforms/s isn't important when it comes to modern DSOs. They all have enough. Memory depth can be specified in wildly different ways from memory per channel to total memory (which is then divided across the channels). Keysight is the worst when it comes to specifying the memory depth because the actual useful memory depth is 1/4 (or less than 1/8 if you have digitial channels and reference traces on) than what it says in the specification.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline fishandchips

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From the specs, the TO1104 has bandwidth limit of 20MHz, high pass, low pass while the non-Mini versions do not support high pass and low pass filtering. Does that mean the mini version is better?

Somewhere I read that different manufacturers have different definitions for the max capture rate and memory depth. Am I correct? I am trying to decide among various Micsig models.

For Max capture rate, which would be sufficient and recommended?
80K wfm/s, 250K wfm/s or 500K wfm/s

For memory depth, which would be sufficient and recommended?
18Mpts, 28Mpts or 90Mpts?

Between the two variables, which is more important?
I'd go for the deepest memory. Waveforms/s isn't important when it comes to modern DSOs. They all have enough. Memory depth can be specified in wildly different ways from memory per channel to total memory (which is then divided across the channels). Keysight is the worst when it comes to specifying the memory depth because the actual useful memory depth is 1/4 (or less than 1/8 if you have digitial channels and reference traces on) than what it says in the specification.

Thanks. With the upcoming decoding feature, it seems that the Micsig scopes have all the features of the Keysight 1000x, Rigol 1054Z and GW Instek GDS-2204E plus touch screen. Anybody can comment on how they are rented in terms of GUI?

I think the Keysight 1000x scopes have 1Mpts only. For the Micsig scopes, they have 18, 28 and 90 Mpts. Is 18Mpts sufficient? If I go for the 28Mpts ones, I may need to pay twice the price.

 


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