Software setup/Mainboard change for Agilent 16900A/16902A/16903A logic analyzer

[ingowien]

I got a used 16903A Logic Analyzer with an ADLINK M-815G mainboard and a (very slow) PIII 1000MHz with Windows XP. The installed software version on the machine is 4.40.0001.

Theoretically this should be a powerful machine but after messing around for some days with the old single core P3/1GHz I'm not so sure any more. I used 2k and XP for ages, even with PIIIs but I don't remember it being so slow and unresponsive. However the 65550 VGA card in the 16903's backplane might be part of the problem. Probably one of the slowest VGA's ever built, even the Windows menus com appear with significant lag. However I might want to re-install it or even upgrade to a newer mainboard if that would be possible. The platform should support Win7 and Multi-Core CPUs as there has been an official update for the 16900 and the 16902 to an ADLINK M-890 board with an C2D E8400 and Win7. But I don't know the exact software version that was used for the upgrade. I assume the upgrade wasn't available for the 16903 as Agilent didn't use standard ATX backcovers and the connectors of the M-890 wouldn't fit through the 16903 mainboard tray without drill, jigsaw and file - a service Agilent probably didn't want to offer. But maybe I'm wrong in that point.

I was able to download a ISO ghost image for the M-815G mainboard (16900-14121, it's for the 16900 but it should boot) but it seems this image is only the base image without the LA application (at least GhostExp doesn't show Agilent software or setup programs). And it seems there are only two software downloads available from Agilent: SetupLA03671008.exe (which is older than what's on my machine) and SetupLA05901110.exe (which might be incompatible as mentioned in Receiving "NO VALID ID DETECTED IN FRAME!" while trying to install Agilent LPA 5.90.1100 on a 16903A?).

- Does somebody have software 4.40 or a download link? Unfortunately the Keysight FTP server seems to be empty. And I can't post in the keysight community forum, I'm getting some error that I'm not allowed to modify content.

- Do you know if 5.90.1100 is compatible with a 16903A under XP? Would this new software install any upgrades to the hardware that would not be compatible with a previous version? Or is it safe to upgrade and eventually downgrade if there are problems?

- Are there other software versions or recovery images (4.x or 5.x) available or recommended? The full installer would be preferred bit anything installable is OK as long as it's really compatible with my hardware.

- Has anybody succeeded in upgrading the mainboard to a non-Agilent (non-M890) mainboard? I'd assume that other C2D Mainboards should work as well if there is no software locking in the Agilent software. A first test with an Advantech AIMB-584 with a Ci5-4590S was not successful as I got the same NO VALID ID DETECTED IN FRAME error. But maybe that's because the 5.90 software is not compatible. At least I do find this message in the 5.90 binaries but not in the 4.40 software.

best regards and thanks for your support,
Ingo

[DaJMasta]

I can probably get back to you in a week or two - have a 16902A that I've got a socket 775 board with the intention to put in.  Mine was a similar 1GHz Coppermine Pentium 3, but with a Motorola VP22.  The form factor is standard Micro ATX, and the power connector is a standard 20 pin ATX connector.... but the power consumption of the Pentium 3 is pretty low compared to many more modern chips (only about 30W TDP), and I don't think there's a 4 pin CPU power connector (let alone a 24 pin ATX power connector or an 8 pin CPU power connector), so while I've ordered a Molex to CPU power connector adapter to take some 12V from a different rail, I wonder whether the PSU will be up to the task... that said, the power inlet connector specifies 1300W max, so it certainly could have the headroom.


In any case, you can basically install everything like a standard desktop, as far as I understand.  The installation instructions for the most recent LA software say to just uninstall the old stuff, so calibration information seems to be stored on the individual LA cards... so a stock Windows XP/7 install plus the downloadable drivers will likely be sufficient to run the instrument (though I haven't tried and don't intend to, I'll stick with XP by cloning my existing drive to an SSD and just use the newer motherboard/CPU).  I've got the most recent version running fine on my unit under XP with the original mainboard, though they are so slow the pulldown menus for the window lag in opening.  It could be that the recovery images check for hardware specifics to ensure version compatibility while the driver/software package just installs like any other program package.

At least in the 16902A, the motherboard slides out in a tray, and instead of the traditional I/O shield just has the cutouts in the back aluminum, since my replacement board has some extra and some rearranged connectors, I plan on dremeling out the space for the standard I/O shield and using that instead.  But this project is a step or two down my list, and I'm still waiting on a connector and some RAM.

[ingowien]

Thank you for your fast reply.
I had similar thoughts. I don't think power should be a real issue. Especially in the 16902 with 1200W supplies. The SSD needs less power than the HDD. There seems to be an additional 4pin power connector on the Backplane next to the CDROM IDE-Port that has 2x GND on the top and 2x12V on the bottom. As the officieal E8400 in the M890 upgrade kit has 65W, I'd assume that similar CPUs shouldn't be an issue. I haven't seen a note that there are different PSU in use for different models. I'm running a similar setup with an AIMB-584 and a Ci5-4590S in a Lecroy DDA that came with a similar Intel P3 board without P4 power connector. Pulled the extra 12V from the HDD cable, no problem at all. Runs stable and super-fast.

I've create an Acronis backup of the HDD but had to do it on a different machine as it would have required eight hours on the PIII. So If 5.90 works for you I can try to upgrade my XP intallation to that software now for a test. If it works on my machine, too I could imagine different reasons why it didn't work in my AIMB-584 test:
- Mainboard/chipset too new (though the PCI driver installed fine)
- The combination of the 16903 PCI card (or rest of the hardware), the mainboard and Win7 doesn't work.
- Problem with Win7 in general (it should work for the 16902 but I think there hasn't been an official version of the 16903 with Win7)
- Problem with the fresh setup or Win7e (I've been using a WES7 image that was lying around, maybe I should test Win7 Pro). The official upgrade kit was based on WES7 but it's always a pain to have all the required packages and drivers installed.
But basically I tried a fresh Win7 install, installed Software 5.90 and got that NO VALID ID DETECTED IN FRAME! error from the background service when it should initialize the hardware.

I'd prefer Win7 because RDP is much better, especially the function to copy files over the clipboard is really handy. But yes, if it doesn't work XP will do fine for 775 boards.

Yes, the MB is in a slide, too in the 16903A. It's just a little higher as the lower 3 slots are covered. The card cage is the same as in the 16902. The difference  is that the 16902 PCI card directly plugs into the backplane as it's so long. The 16903 PCI card is small and connects to the backplane with a ribbon cable. I think it's just a minor translation from PCI to some different bus that attaches the ACQ hardware, the super-slow VGA card for the LCD and the front panel. Just the 3M touch controller is attached to COM2 on the mainboard but almost all 775 boards I've seen have a COM2, so this shouldn't be the problem. The ribbon cable makes tests easier for the 16903 as the new mainboard hasn't to be aligned perfectly. I even had it reside outside the mainboard tray in my first test.

I have to check the ATX power connector of the M-815G board but I'd assume it is standard ATX. However yes, you always have to double check, i've seen several HP/Compaq boards with slightly different pin assignment. The most annoying issue are the ATX connectors as they didn't add a standard ATX back cover. I'm trying to find a board with similar connections with is not possible due to the strange layout of the M-815G with 3 audio plugs horizontally aligned. So I'm not sure if I'll cut out the entire ATX standard opening and insert the original backplane (which could include a lot of filing) or just create/modify the openings for the required ports.

So thanks again for your thoughts, I think I'll get a 377 board with an E8400 and do some tests. I'm not sure if it would be a good Ideal to choose one with a similar Phoenix AwardBIOS (my old board has a Phoenix - AwardBIOS - v6.00PG, Agilent Technologies, REV:AG10). On thing I'm not quite sure about is, how much faster the thing can get. Windows and software setup can be reduced significantly, but at least 3 of the 6 minutes it currently takes are hardware related. If these are still CPU limited, the start time will get better. But if that long wait is just hardware related, I will always take ages until the analyzer is usable, even with a new CPU. I know these machines were only turned on and never off but hobbyist usage is different.

best regards
Ingo

[nctnico]

Did you already install an SSD and more memory? If possible disable swap (virtual memory) on Windows. It will make the system much faster because Windows normally wants to leave as much of the memory unused and pushes everything into swap. The latter makes the system very slow.

[DaJMasta]

At least with the Motorola board in mine, I've read that 512MB is the max supported even though are 3 DIMM slots, and while the P-IIIs go up to 1.4Ghz Tualatin (at least my board is Socket 370, not a soldered down BGA), responsiveness is bad enough that it likely won't be enough running 5.x software versions.  Going to an SSD decreases load times significantly, but honestly that isn't the bad part of it on mine - boot time isn't great, but the usability beyond that that's the real issue.


Not sure if the long PCI card in mine is what you're describing, but I doubt the LA software uses much hardware acceleration, so while maybe the Aero interface does in Windows 7, I don't expect it to be a big constraint for mine.... and there's always the external monitor output which is driven by the onboard CPU graphics on later boards, so that should have as much acceleration as it could need.  I did look for a board specifically with a PCI slot on that farthest out slot, since that's the only way it would line up with the connector on the backplane that it connects to in the front of the instrument, but they appear to be standard mATX spacing, and from the device manager, I think the stuff specific to the LA are on the card and beyond, so the rest of the system basically just a standard PC.  The board I'm trying to swap into mine is an Asus P5G41T-M, also with an e8400 and 4GB of RAM.  Will move to an SATA hard drive after it's installed, since I'll likely have to add SATA drivers to the XP installation after copying.

[ingowien]

@nctnico:
Yes, I tried an SSD (took two attempts as the IDE to SATA-converter was jumpered as Slave) and the HDD UDMA cable lacks the slave sleection line. Startup time was reduced from 6m to 5m, so yes, there is an improvement but it's not that large. But SSD is definitely a must for $35. Didn't try memory upgrade until now as I'd prefer to change the entire mainboard if this is possible. I should have some old DDR-1 RAMs in spare but in general the PIII isn't worth it. In a single core every mouse click blocks everything else, that's just not state of the art since the first P4 with HT came out. If there wouldn't be a better solution I'd add 2GB of RAM and maybe a PIII-1400 with the socket 377 adapter as the board probably doesn't support the Tualatin. Probably not worth the $50 it would cost.

@DaJMasta
You're right, I just assumed the board would accept more RAM (have only 512MB). And mine only has two memory sockets. But I'd assume that 2x512MB should be supported.
There are Tualatins with an integrated socket converter, just 1mm thicker. Never tried one of these but if it would make it faster...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Tualatin-Pentium-IIIs-1-4GHz-512K-include-On-chip-Socket-Adapter/281238323137
I didn't know that such a PCB adapter exists, at least it's in interesting construction. At least better than Intel changing the socket without 100% technical need.

I think it should be the long card as shown in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-16900a-teardown-logic-analyzer/msg647707/#msg647707. You can see that the PCI card is as long as the entire mainboard tray and directly connects to the huge multi-pin connector in the backplane. The service manual shows the same configuration for the 16900 and the 16902. Only the 16903 has the short PCi card and the flex cable. Wonder what the exact reason is. The backplane is the same size so the space for the connector would be there. Maybe the multi-frame interfacing was expensive and it was cheaper to create a smaller PCI card or the re-used an existing design. Though it has a 16903 part name.

-----

I tried if I can install 5.90.1110 into the existing XP. Doesn't work, the installer fails with some incredible "Agilent Logic and Protocol Analyzer 05.90.1110..." : "Error 2337.Could not close file: GetLastError: ." Superb error logging from MS. No file name, no error description, nothing. The installer log file is even better and contains exactly this error and nothing else, so I don't even know which MSI file caused the problem. No hint in the event log. I just love MS.
Error 2337.Could not close file:  GetLastError: .
=== Logging stopped: 12.01.2019  14:38:42 ===
Error 2337 could be related to some .Net installation error. So I'd probably end up either with a fresh XP install or trying to restore the 16900 M-815G ghost image. I think it should run without problems on the 16902.
I uninstalled and re-installed several times, always the same error. At least it's persistent.

I found an old 3.83 install version in some Windows temp folder, seems to be the complete extraction from SetupLA03830000.exe. This one installs and runs fine.

More google research revealed some almost hidden release notes:
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme540.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme530.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme500.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme440.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme400.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme383.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme382.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme380.html
https://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Readme370.html
So Win7 support was added in 4.00.

The revision history I could find is:
05.40 (August 2012)
Version 5.40 supports Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 and 3, Windows Vista Service Pack 1, and Windows 7 (32-bit or 64-bit  platforms) Service Pack 1.
SetupLAXXXXXXXX.exe

05.30 (March 2012)
Version 5.30 supports Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 and 3, Windows Vista Service Pack 1, and Windows 7 (32-bit or 64-bit  platforms) Service Pack 1.
SetupLAXXXXXXXX.exe

05.20 (October 2011)

05.10 (July 2011)

05.00 (April 2011)
Version 5.00 supports Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 and 3, Windows Vista Service Pack 1, and Windows 7 (32-bit or 64-bit platforms). 
Once you have downloaded the software:
SetupLA05000003.exe

04.40 (January 2011)
Version 4.40 supports Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 and 3, Windows Vista Service Pack 1, and Windows 7 (on 32-bit/64-bit platforms).
SetupLA04400000.exe

04.20 (December 2010)

04.00 (October 2010)
Version 4.00 supports Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 and 3, Windows Vista Service Pack 1, and Windows 7 (on 32-bit platforms).
SetupLA04000000.exe

03.83 (October 2009)
Version 3.83 supports Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 and 3 and Windows Vista Service Pack 1.
SetupLA03830000.exe

Unfortunately I only have v3.83 that installs fine in XP but won't install in Win7. And v5.90 that doesn't install in XP and doesn't recognize the modules in Win7. Just the typical installation experience I have most of the time...
I'd really prefer Win7 as it's so much better when changing hardware details. XP has always been a pain, you even have to change the HAL manually from uniprocessor to multiprocessor when changing the CPU or the thin will crash. Win7 is different, once you have the AHCI drivers installed, you just plug it into a different computer and it will come up. Install the remaining drivers, ready. Thus If I could avoid XP that would really be a gain for me.

So if anybode has a setup for v4.00, 4.20, 4.40, 5.0 or whatever this would help me a lot. I'm not quite sure if v5.90 is really clean and stable or there are issues with this version. So any other release I could get would help a lot.
And it's a shame Keysight can't provide the setup files any more just because someone in the IT dept. felt that files have to be removed from the FTP server after one week.

best regards
Ingo

[ingowien]

Just a small update: I got some progress after hours of updating and testing.

Original P3 M-815G mainboard with XP (v5.90 wouldn't install here):
- I could re-install the 16900-14121 image with Ghost03, boots without problems.
- As expected no software included and it's XP SP2. Setup 05.90.1110 however requires XP SP3 (wanted to test it with a fresh image without installing previous versions first)
- Installed XP SP3 and all the other hotfixes. Created Acronis image - who knows what'll come next and it took hours until here. As USB is slower than slow I added a second HDD instead of the DVD-ROM. Never throw away your old 80GB HDDs.
- Setup 05.90.1110 runs into some .Net install error
- For some reason they only included the online installer for .Net 3.5, not the offline and that doesn't throw a proper error. Either install .Net 3.5 manually or replace the dotnetfx35_SP1_RequiresNetwork.exe installer.
- Setup 05.90.1110 installs in XP (takes ages), then the hardware is recognized and everything runs.

AIMB-584 with Ci5-4590S and Win7:
- Fresh WES7 test image, some extra packages loaded that are often missing.
- SetupLA03.xx won't install (unsupported OS).
- I was able to partially reconstruct the SetupLA04.40.0001 from the installed version on my XP setup. First install .Net 3.51 and 4.0 to be sure. Find and move the 8MB .msi file for the Logic Analyzer software in the XP Windows directory, during install it will raise errors on missing files. Search them on the HDD (somewhere in Program Files, User directories and Windows directory) and build up the content. As a surprise to me it really installed.
- v4.40.0001 installed fine in Win7 (had the mainboard outside the analyzer without PCI card attached).
- Put the AIMB next to the analyzer, move PCI card to new mainboard. Surprise: comes up, hardware is detected, everything running. Startup time reduced from 6m to less than 1:30. And that includes that I don't have an autostart for the app installed, yet.
- Surprisingly I only had the standard VGA card, I think in 256 color mode. Intel graphics not present - probably disabled by BIOS.
- Now I had the bad idea to do two things at once: install the old XP VGA driver in Win7 (not a good idea) and make the AIMB-584 enable both VGA drivers -> lots of beeps, doesn't come up any more with PCI VGA.
- BIOS defaults loaded -> still lots of beeps. Always remove PCI card, get into BIOS (no signal on both displays), do some tests -> fails again.
- Beeps vanish if palette snooping is turned on but I still can't get it to use a PCI VGA. Neither the Agilent 65550 nor some old S3s I keept in a box if I would ever have a need for them. Never expected that to happen. I don't know in which state the mainboard was in the first trial but I can't get it to use a PCI VGA as primary. And yes, it definitely came up on the internal LCD as I was wondering that the BIOS setup looks so different with the 800x600 font.
- So I switched to Intel IGFX as primary display, at least this works. Agilent Brightness Control crashes but who cares. My tiny 10" 1280x800 test display is so much better than the internal display...
- Tried an upgrade to 05.90.1110 under Win7 -> again no valid frame detected.

So the current status is:
- WinXP with 4.40 ... OK
- WinXP with 5.90 ... OK with fresh XP from Agilent ISO file + SP3 + Hotfixes, wouldn't install on the old running XP
- Win7 + 4.40 ... OK (except for VGA, touch screen not tested, yet)
- Win7 + 5.90 ... fail (no valid frame)

I think that's enough for today, the 16903 can definitely be run with a Ci5/1155 board. The AIMB will not be the target board, the onboard LVDS is meant for other projects. I think I'll get some other 1155 board as a Ci5 doesn't cost much more and offers twice the power of an E8600. With the same 65W TDP and a far more efficient chipset. And I think other mainboards might not have such issues with a PCI VGA card, Advantech boards are always a little strange in terms of compatibility and their tons of settings.

So If I may ask the community for help than this would be:
- If someone has the 65550 Win7 driver (from a running installation or as setup), this would be fine.
- An existing Win7 image for a 16900, 16902 or 16903 would be good. I could then get the VGA and touch screen drivers and check how they did other things (are they still using the mirror driver as in XP?).
- Again software setups from 4.0 to 5.8 would be appeciated. I'm not sure if my 4.40 reconstruction is really OK and it would be good to find out which versions are running and which are not. 

best regards and thanks for your support so far, especially the hint that it should run with different mainboards was very important for me,
Ingo

[ingowien]

I can provide some more details for those who are interested.
I got a cheap C2D/Mainboard/RAM combo, it's a Foxconn 45CMX-K with an E8400 an 2GB RAM. I probably wouldn't use that permanently but it should do for first tests.

FX 45CMX-K with fresh XP install:
- Unfortunately I used my last modified XP+SP3+AHCI MSDN DVD to install and this is german (overlooked the language fact). I'm not sure if this could make a difference as some paths in the Agilent software seem to be hardcoded to /program files/. Maybe I'll have to redo the test with an EN version.
- XP installs fine, I could install the Agilent graphics driver for the 65551 (just find the inf file and collect all the files referenced in it).
- The onboard VGA driver will only load if it's primary. So there's a little issue here:
  -> PCI is first in BIOS -> Boot messages and everything on LCD but external VGA not available as driver doesn't load
  -> Onboard is first in BIOS -> Boot messages on external VGA only but both work in Windows
- Ensure SP3 and all hotfixes are installed, Install VS2005=VC8 and VS2008=VC9 runtime and .Net 3.5.
- For first tests I created an adapter from the external COM1 port to an internal header. The touch driver (UPDD 3.8.34) installs, it's a serial SC4 on COM1 or COM2 but flipped, has to be calibrated.
- I only have my reconstructed 4.40 setup. But it installs. If anything fails, it's probably .Net/VC runtime.
- Hardware is detected (very fast), Analyzer software runs.
- Swap display button (long press on touch) doesn't work. It seems the system is not recognized correctly. Instead of
  To switch active display adapters, push and hold the "Touch Off" button.
  it shows
  To switch active display adapters, push the "Ext. Display" button.
  Every time you hit the touch button, it switches to the external display and stays there. It's pretty tedious to get the display back to the internal screen (settings, extend, primary...)
- V5.90 installs but has the same problem as on the other board: "no valid ID detected in frame. requires proper system BIOS".

FX 45CMX-K with modified Agilent XP image;
I didn't do more tests with a fresh install, instead tried to get the stock image to run.
- Source is the 16900-14121 iso image for the ADLINK M815G. Currently available on dropbox, search for "Keysight 16900-14121", there's a hit on keysight communities.
- Easiest way is to run it on the old board, but you can mount the registry from an external system and do the changes as well.
- Create the required entries for the CriticalDeviceDatabase, this is based on an old trick published by heise (ftp://ftp.heise.de/pub/ct/listings/0218-206.zip), maybe there are other sources as well. You only need the .reg file, the drivers are all there. For my board it was important to add 27DF and 27C0 that have been missing for some reason. Don't know why the 945 wasn't covered by the heise trick.
- Either change the new machine to single core in BIOS setup or change to a multiprocessor APIC HAL (halmacpi.dll). You might do something like 'devcon sethwid @ROOT\ACPI_HAL\0000 := +acpiapic_mp !acpiapic_up'  and 'devcon update c:\windows\inf\hal.inf acpiapic_mp' for an 'official' HAL change. Otherwise simply replace hal.dll.
- Now the OS should boot on the new board. If it there is a sudden reboot, it's still a BSOD with immediate reboot. Use F8 and disable reboot on error. If it's a 0xFB error it's probably still a non-accesible boot device. You have to check the hardware IDs of your new ATAPI/IDE controllers. Maybe changing the BIOS into IDE mode will help (though this option doesn't exist on the old 945 chipsets, they didn't have AHCI as far as I know).
- Same procedure: board drivers, SP3 + hotfixes + .Net3.5 + VS runtime
- Same behavior with graphic cards: Driver for internal VGA will only load if it's primary (using latest intel 14.32.4-2008-02-26).
- Did a test with a PCIe HD5450, same thing. Driver only loads if it's primary.
- Touch screen driver is already installed, assigned COM2 to COM1 for first tests (reboot required). Later I'll add a PCI RS232 card to avoid the cable to the external connector.
- Install Agilent software 4.40. Interesting thing: now it complains that this is a genuine Agilent system but it doesn't recognize the BIOS (obviously) and I should get the correct bios update from Agilent. Obvioulsy not possible, but this seems to be the BIOS check in the installer only, it doesn't do further checks.
- Software runs, change displays with Touch-off button works, too.
- I haven't tested software 5.90 yet, but I assume it would fail again (in my tests 5.90 only worked with the original mainboard).
- XP is not genuine any more, has to be re-activated on the new board.

So there could be two issues:
- The analyzer software isn't compatible with non-english OS versions.
- Agilent applied some modifications or registry changes that are used to detect compatibility or control functions. I've not investigated this in detail as the original image is now running. 

I still haven't checked if the new board fits into the machine, if power supply and pbtn/pled are compatible. But I assume this should work.

So the short summary would be:
- Other boards work with restrictions.
- External VGA only works if the boot screen is there (Win7 and XP), in Win7 only one screen is recognized, in XP both work. Only the generic VGA driver is available for Win7 but the performance loss is probably not that relevant for the old internal, non accelerated 65551.
- The switch screen function with long Touch-off only seems to work with the original Agilent image. Making it boot on an 945 board requires quite some work but is probably worth the effort.
- Software v4.40 worked for me with other boards, v5.90 did not (no valid ID in frame). Unfortunately still I don't have other software versions between 4.40 and 5.90 to test.
 

[ingowien]

Just a summary of my tests if anyone needs it:
Hardware:
- I didn't really trust the Foxconn mainboard and it sometimes didn't recognize the PS/2 Keyboard, so I ended with an ASUS P5G41T-M LX and a 95W C2Q Q9400. Just because that was offered on ebay for 20 EUR. Probably the 65W E8400 would have been better than the Q9400. But it came with a 50mm cooler that fits into the case, has thermal management and it doesn't get too hot as CPU load isn't that high. The board has a more decent G41 chipset and seems to be OK. The BIOS doesn't offer the option to disable extra cores but everything else seems to be OK.
- Standard ATX power supply and the 4pin ATX power from the aux power connector on the backplane work without problems.
- It's important to jumper the board to use 5V for keyboard and USB, not 5VSB (default for USB). The Agilent PSU's 5VSB doesn't provide sufficient power to drive an external 2.5" HDD otherwise. No stability issues but with 4.7V the drive wouldn't spin up.
- The PS/2 and legacy connectors on the P5G41T-M LX are approx. 2.5mm left of the original mainboard. So I decided to cut the opening for the ATX I/O shield with a fretsaw - just in case  I'd need the old cover later. Fits perfectly and I can swap to a different mainboard if required.
- I use a dual PCI to RS232 card to get the COM port for the touch panel. And a PCIe to USB3.0 card as I had one lying around.

Original XP Image from Agilent
- Boots on the new mainboard once the IDE/SATA drivers for the ICH7 27C0 and 27DF devices are added.
- Keysight kindly provided some other software versions. v4.40, v5.40 and v5.60 work with the changed mainboard. v5.70, v5.80 and v5.90 don't work (No valid ID in frame). Not an issue for me.
- VGA driver 14.38.13.5215-6.14.10.5215 from ASUS works without problems in parallel to the 65550 card. Display switching with long Touch-off works.
- The LCD brightness utilty only works in v4.40 but not later. Not an issue, the old utility and the required dlls can be copied to a dedicated directory and used from there, just add it to startup.

Clean XP setup
- Just for curiosity I tried XP SP3 EN from MSDN.
- Same issue as with previous tests, hardware is not detected and display switching with long Touch-off doesn't work.
- It turns out some registry value is required, simply install
  Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
  [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\AgMachineInfo]
  "Ag16900Standalone"=dword:00000001
- With that key, v4.40, v5.40 and v5.60 seem to run without issues. At least I got the same behavior as with the Agilent Image.

Win7 setup
- Same situtation, v4.40, v5.40 and v5.60 work with the new mainboard.
- With the Win7 VGA driver only one display at a time works (either internal LCD or external VGA).
- With the XP driver (either 14.38.13.5215-6.14.10.5215-XP from ASUS or 14.42.15.5420-6.14.10.5420 from Intel), both Monitors are detected and show primary/secondary desktop.  It's strange that the setup installs in Win7 though only states XP and not Win7 but it works. And better than the Win7 driver. 
- Display switching won't work, even with Ag16900Standalone in place. The sevice probably detects some incompatibility and offers video controls/OSK instead of display switching.
- Only display brightness utility from v4.40 works.
- 3M touch driver v3.8.34 installs and works fine.
- Win7 with multiple displays is annoying, especially if the external monitor is no longer attached. But there's a really cool utility named "Actual Multiple Monitors" from actualtools.
  - can show task bar and start menu on all monitors with Win7
  - adds additional functions to the desktop > right-click menu for simple configuration
  - can move new windows to the monitor having the mouse cursor
  - can create profiles for fast swithing and switch to a certain profile after system boot -> you can always fall back to the internal LCD after boot
- With this tool and the XP VGA driver the machine gets quite usable with Win7. Especially as even the standard VGA driver for the 65550 seems to be much more responsive then in XP. Of course display switching with long Touch-off would be nice but with Actual Multiple Monitors this isn't required any longer. And the highly improved Win7 RDP functions work without problems.
- Mabe even Win8 or Win10 would work but I haven't tested that.

So thanks to Keysight EMEA support I got the analyzer running with a fast mainboard and dual boot XP/Win7e. Due to the mechanical issues and the fact that unknown problems might occur I probably wouldn't do the modification on a company machine - except it's really required by the owner and problems are accepted. But for my private machine it was definitely a huge benefit.

[DaJMasta]

Great news!  I still have the best of intentions for my upgrade but it's still in the project heap.... 

[gslick]

My solution for using 16900A/16902A/16903A logic analyzers with the old and slow Windows XP motherboards is to reload Windows XP from the recovery DVD, then update to XP SP3, then install the 5.90.1110 software.

But then instead of running the 5.90.1110 software directly on the 16900A/16902A/16903A logic analyzer, also install the 5.90.1110 software on a nice fast modern PC with lots of memory and nice large monitors, and then control the analyzer remotely from the fast PC. You have to have the exact same version of the software on the analyzer and on the PC for the remote connection to work.

I need to get this setup going on my bench again and refresh my memory on exactly how it all works. I think even with a 100Mb network connection between the systems instead of a 1Gb network the performance was much better than using the software locally on the logic analyzer.

[charlyd]

Hello i join this conversation also because i got myself a 16903A with 2 16911A cards.... unit is on its way but will take some time. but i read a lot about building or changing the MB for the fastest model Win7 board. suitable in this unit...

so...

[charlyd]

is there someone who is running the 16903A with Win7 on the mobo, fast and succesfull?  if yes which mobo is installed or did you install a custom mobo?

and did you use SSD ?

[charlyd]

did someone ever try installing XP and upgrade that to win 7 ? for compatibility. I know there is nothing better then install from scratch. but sometime your are in a need for drivers and so..

[keitheevblog]

Hey everyone,

Proud new owner of a 16900A with 16950B and (5) 16910A's. Fully loaded!

I just wanted to thank everyone including ingowien for the discussions. Don't ever hesitate to post updates, especially that are chock-full of good information, out in the forums even if you think no one is listening. I can't tell you the number of times I've been rescued by a random post out there....even mine after I forgot what I did!

I just installed a SIL3114-based SATA card and SSD into my 16900A. XP was blue screening after factory disk re-imaging, throwing 0x7B STOP errors for inaccessible boot drive. Ended up repairing the XP installation with an off the shelf XP SP2 CD (with F6 floppy-drive copied drivers), and then manually installed SP3, and then installed LA Analyzer app 5.90.1110.

If I'm correct, I think the entire PCI bus has a maximum throughput available of around 1 gbps. I'm getting around 125MB/s maximum read/writes to the SSD. This might be a small improvement over the 3.5" HDD, but it should be more reliable and consistent speeds despite fragmentation or track location. Copying from the SSD to the gigabit, for SSD imaging purposes, I'm getting EXACTLY 67 megabytes per second over multiple hour average, which would be half-PCI speed. 133 MB/s total, split between the SSD and gigabit!

The bootup is somewhere around 15 seconds from power on to desktop, with another 30 seconds for all the modules to get "checked-in." I'm VERY happy with the boot-up speed. For the actual usage, I have to play around with it more.....just got it working recently.

This class of computer with USB 1.1 ports, PCI slots, 512MB RAM, and XP is so yesteryear. At least it has gig-e and can drive it relatively fast. I know that this is "sufficient" for the task, but I could definitely see me wanting to upgrade this mainboard to something newer and more modern.

I just wanted to say hello, thanks, and know that your posts are being read and are valuable!

Keith
Pittsburgh, near East Coast US

[charlyd]

hi and what about this board.. • Gigabyte G41MT-S2PT   -> Core 2 Quad cpu and 8 Gig

@Keith your max for the disk bus is 133 MB/s so SSD will never go over 133.


Does anybody have a 16900 series with an Original factory upgrade to a win7 ->  M890 MB?

[keitheevblog]

hi and what about this board.. • Gigabyte G41MT-S2PT   -> Core 2 Quad cpu and 8 Gig

@Keith your max for IDE is 133 MB/s so SSD will never go over 133.


Does anybody have a 16900 series with an Original factory upgrade to a win7 ->  M890 MB?

Hey.

Thanks for the message.

You're right, but I think for the wrong reasons!

The SSD doesn't connect via IDE. It connects via SATA, and then via PCI, which also has the same 133MB/s limitation. And if THAT doesn't slow it down, then the bus from the ICH connects to the CPU at 133MB/s. So you're right!!

There are some tangential benefits to be had from upgrading to an SSD though:

• Replaces a 13 year old drive
• Has no moving parts and so will likely be reliable long term
• Has a much faster access time/latency
• Has a higher number of concurrent IOPS
• Can be imaged at high-speed when connected to an external machine

The 16900 can't be factory upgraded to Win7 as far as I know. It doesn't have enough RAM....I think you have to go with a 16902 or a 16903.

[gslick]

The 16900 can't be factory upgraded to Win7 as far as I know. It doesn't have enough RAM....I think you have to go with a 16902 or a 16903.

The 16900A, 16902A, and 16903A are all basically the same from the CPU side of things. The motherboards were either a Radisys SC815E, a Motorola VP22, or an ADLINK M-815G, depending on the serial number. A 16902A is basically the same thing as a 16900A with a different front panel assembly with built in LCD display. You could turn one into the other by swapping the front panel assemblies. A 16903A is basically a 16902A that is limited to only 3 module slots, and only 2 accessible PCI slots instead of 3. It has a single power supply while the 16900A and 16902A have two power supplies to handle the additional module slots.

The 16901A has a different and more compact form factor, but with a larger built in LCD display. Basically the same as the 16800 series with only 2 modules slots on the side instead of in the rear. Depending on the serial number the motherboard could be an Intel D915GUX, an ADLINK M-880, or an ADLINK M-890.

The 16902B has the same general form factor as the 16902A, but with the same larger LCD display as the 16901A. Depending on the serial number the motherboard could be an ADLINK M-880 or an ADLINK M-890.

The later production 16901A and 16902B that came with the ADLINK M-890 motherboard were already running Windows 7. The earlier production 16901A and 16902B that came with an Intel D915GUX or an ADLINK M-880 motherboard could be upgraded to Windows 7 at Keysight by replacing the motherboard with an ADLINK M-890 motherboard and installing a new imaged HDD or SSD. An ADLINK M-880 motherboard system could also be upgraded to Windows 7 at Keysight by installing additional RAM on the existing ADLINK M-880 motherboard and installing a new imaged HDD or SSD.

https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0599EN.pdf
Keysight Technologies Windows 7 Upgrade Kits for 16800 Series, 16901A and 16902B Logic Analyzers Data Sheet

Summary

Windows 7 upgrade kit options are available to replace an existing Intel 915GUX motherboard or Adlink M880 motherboard with an Adlink M890 motherboard and supply a new imaged HDD or SSD. The kits cost $3495 plus installation for the 16800A and 16901A (HDD-based) and cost $5695 plus installation for the 16902B (SSD-based).

Options are available to retain an existing M880 motherboard and perform the upgrade from Windows XP to Windows 7 by supplying additional System RAM and a new, imaged HDD or SSD and cost $1495 plus installation for the 16800A and 16901A (HDD-based) and cost $1595 plus installation for 16902B (SSD-based).

Upgrades for additional external HDDs or SSDs imaged for Windows 7 are available and cost $1295 plus installation for the 16800A and 16901A (HDD-based) and cost $1895 plus installation for 16902B (SSD-based). If they are ordered separately then there is either the option to be installed at the service center or customer installed, and only if the proper upgrades have been previously purchased and installed.

Details

All 16800 Series, 16901A and 16902B logic analyzers with serial number MY51420101 or greater already have the M890 motherboard in them and are already running Windows 7 operating system.

All kits must be installed by the Keysight Technologies, Inc.Roseville, California Repair Center with the exception of additional hard drive kits that also offer an option to be customer installed. Approximate installation fees are outlined below.

All 16900A 16902A 16903A and 168xA/AD are obsolete and not upgradable to Windows 7.

System performance (CPU intensive operations and IO intensive operations) will be significantly improved by the Windows 7 upgrade kits which upgrade from the M880 motherboard to the M890 motherboard. Typical improvement is around twice the performance.

Upgrade kits which add additional memory to the existing M880 motherboard will yield performance similar to or slightly better than the original M880 motherboard running Windows XP but without the additional memory.

I have later productions versions of a 16901A and a 16902B which both came with ADLINK M-890 motherboards running Windows 7. If I remember right the 16901A has a 500GB WD hard drive, while the 16902B has a 320GB Intel SSD in an externally accessible removable drive tray. There are no recovery DVDs available for the Windows 7 systems, there is a recovery partition on the hard drive or SSD. I haven't figured out yet the best way to clone a drive to a different one of possibly different size, if I ever wanted to do that. I suppose I would need an image tool that could deal with resizing and moving partitions around as necessary.

[keitheevblog]

Thanks Glen.

Do you know which chipset, processor/speed, ram is used on the M890 motherboard?

Can you please take a high-resolution image of that motherboard, if you have it?

Thanks,
Keith

[ingowien]

There is a document "Keysight N2753A and N2754A Windows XP to Windows 7 Upgrade Kits" showing a screenshot of the XP System Properties on an M890 mainboard with an E8400 3.0GHz CPU and 3GB of RAM. That's why I used an E8400 for my tests, though there might have been different variants.

[gslick]

Thanks Glen.

Do you know which chipset, processor/speed, ram is used on the M890 motherboard?

Can you please take a high-resolution image of that motherboard, if you have it?

Thanks,
Keith

My 16901A with an M-890 motherboard has an Intel Core2 Duo E8400 @ 3.00GHz, 4GB of RAM, and a WD5000BPKX 500GB 2.5-inch 6 Gb/s disk.

The motherboard uses an Intel® 4 Series Chipsets Chipset Family, 82Q45 or 82Q43 Graphics and Memory Controller Hub (GMCH). Vendor ID 8086h, Device ID 2E10h, Revision Number 03h. I'm not sure at the moment if that if a Q45 or a Q43.

It uses an Intel® I/O Controller Hub 10 (Intel® ICH 10). That includes 2 EHCI USB 2.0 host controllers. The Gigabit Ethernet appears as an Intel 82574L, not the Gigabit Ethernet built into the ICH10.

Attached are some photos I found on the net (actually an eBay listing). I haven't opened my 16901A up yet to take a detailed look.

[gslick]

There is a document "Keysight N2753A and N2754A Windows XP to Windows 7 Upgrade Kits" showing a screenshot of the XP System Properties on an M890 mainboard with an E8400 3.0GHz CPU and 3GB of RAM. That's why I used an E8400 for my tests, though there might have been different variants.

If the system is running 32-bit Windows XP it might only be able to access 3GB of RAM even if the M-890 motherboard has 4GB of RAM.

The software image for the 16901A and 16902B with the M-890 motherboard runs 64-bit Windows Embedded Standard 7 SP1 and can access the full 4GB of RAM.

[keitheevblog]

My 16901A with an M-890 motherboard has an Intel Core2 Duo E8400 @ 3.00GHz, 4GB of RAM, and a WD5000BPKX 500GB 2.5-inch 6 Gb/s disk.

The motherboard uses an Intel® 4 Series Chipsets Chipset Family, 82Q45 or 82Q43 Graphics and Memory Controller Hub (GMCH). Vendor ID 8086h, Device ID 2E10h, Revision Number 03h. I'm not sure at the moment if that if a Q45 or a Q43.

It uses an Intel® I/O Controller Hub 10 (Intel® ICH 10). That includes 2 EHCI USB 2.0 host controllers. The Gigabit Ethernet appears as an Intel 82574L, not the Gigabit Ethernet built into the ICH10.

It sounds like you're pretty sure that's the case.

The nomenclature sure has me looking in the other direction.

We had the M815G motherboard, based on the Intel 815G chipset. Ok, all good.
We had the Intel 915GUX motherboard, again based on the Intel 915G chipset. Ok, all good.

Then we have the M880 and M890. But when you check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_chipsets you can't find any Intel-based chipsets with 880 or 890 in the name.....

So it makes me think about Adlink Tech based out of Taiwan. Via Technologies, also based out of Taiwan, has an 880 chipset and an 890 chipset as you can see here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VIA_chipsets

There's Biostar, also based in Taiwan, offers several motherboards that support Intel processors, but with this 880 and 890 chipsets.

Here's the 890 for instance: https://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=173#specification

This 890 takes an E8400 processor, amongst others.....

There's an 880 and various other 8xx boards.

Doesn't this strike you a bit too close of a fit to be wrong?

Thanks
Keith

[DaJMasta]

It's not that, though.  VIA chipsets are not intel Q45 chipsets, just because the number systems of some consumer grade boards match ones used by a different company for industrial motherboards.  Adlink makes hardware for industrial and commercial PoS/signage locations and similar, they don't sell to consumers like Biostar does, and you wouldn't have an intel northbridge or southbridge (Q45/43 and ICH10) with a VIA chipset, because you can't just mix and match them.


In any case, a related upgrade attempt:  I got my hands on a 16823A analyzer with a D915GUX motherboard in it and attempted to swap in a P5G41T-M for an upgrade and slight power consumption reduction, but while it would boot alright, the video controller did not take kindly to the swap - the main screen showed offset on the left 2/3rds.  Since the analyzer was reasonably fast with the P4 and windows XP on the original board, I opted to just upgrade the CPU to one of the better ones it could use and throw in more RAM, so I didn't have to muck around in screen video settings or drivers too much.  The rear output for the board worked as normal, but the internal connection from the PCIe riser card used for video wasn't quite happy with the board.  The BIOS is also customized by Agilent, with presets in the menus for the two screen sizes (12" and 15" depending on model), so I suspect there's some formatting setting for the integrated GPU to ship the picture out to the PCIe card that may be difficult to duplicate on a fully third party board.  The BIOS revision number is also totally different from intel's, intel's D915GUX number was 0482 whereas the bios identified itself as 6.0 and made no mention of a similar number format.

Long story short, upgrading the board to a consumer one will probably get you a running instrument with few issues, but getting the screen worked out properly could be tricky.

[keitheevblog]

It's not that, though.  VIA chipsets are not intel Q45 chipsets, just because the number systems of some consumer grade boards match ones used by a different company for industrial motherboards.  Adlink makes hardware for industrial and commercial PoS/signage locations and similar, they don't sell to consumers like Biostar does, and you wouldn't have an intel northbridge or southbridge (Q45/43 and ICH10) with a VIA chipset, because you can't just mix and match them.

Fair enough.

The interesting thing is that I have a family desktop machine still in regular use that uses an Intel DQ45CB motherboard with Core 2 Quad Q9550 with 8GB of ram. I stripped the CPU and RAM out of an old dell machine that was in a, eeeeessshhh, BTX motherboard. Rebuilt using new cube case, power supply, etc.

It seems many problems in the thread above were video-related issues with the touchscreen. I wonder for my 16900A whether installing 5.90.1110 on a modern-ish Windows 7(10?) machine might simply be enough? That's assuming that the Win7 drivers included work in a Win7 Pro install vs a WES7 one. I bet they do.

Outside of that, is there really any compatibility dependency on CPU/mobo/chipset/ram or any other aspect?