Author Topic: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815  (Read 619185 times)

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Offline videobruce

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #175 on: April 24, 2013, 04:08:13 pm »
Thanks for the link. This looks very interesting.

How is the sampling rate and is it any different on a PC?

« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 04:27:21 pm by videobruce »
 

Offline olsennTopic starter

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #176 on: August 12, 2013, 04:53:18 pm »
Just a shout out to those who haven't been following the thread, "Sniffing the Rigol's Internal I2C Bus"; the DSA815 has been HACKED! You can now get licence codes to enable 10Hz RBW as well as the Advanced Measurment Options, VSWR, and EMC.

Check it out here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg275473/?topicseen#msg275473

Special thanks to "Cybernet" and "DL5TOR" for making this possible!
 

Offline Matthias Toussaint

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #177 on: August 14, 2013, 06:51:14 pm »
I noticed peaks at 900kHz and 10MHz with nothing connected to the DSA815. The 10MHz must be the internal reference, but what could be the 900kHz. LCD display clock? Any thought on this?
 

Offline Rory

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #178 on: August 14, 2013, 07:15:14 pm »
I noticed peaks at 900kHz and 10MHz with nothing connected to the DSA815. The 10MHz must be the internal reference, but what could be the 900kHz. LCD display clock? Any thought on this?


Now try turning on the tracking generator.
 

Offline Matthias Toussaint

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #179 on: August 14, 2013, 07:37:27 pm »
Yeah, the noise is elevated quite a lot with the TG running (trace 2). This limits the usable dynamic range to around 80dB when using the tracking generator. It would be nicer without that noise but I can can live with that. It's still a budget SA
 

Offline jsykes

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #180 on: August 16, 2013, 04:40:44 am »
I noticed peaks at 900kHz and 10MHz with nothing connected to the DSA815. The 10MHz must be the internal reference, but what could be the 900kHz. LCD display clock? Any thought on this?

I was looking at the Rigol firmware notes and saw for FW 00.01.06 the notes mention a 900MHz glitch problem. I wonder if they mean 900KHz? It's kind of hard to figure out what the Chinglish means in relation to the glitch and tracking generator.
It's highlited in RED below.
 
 
 Function Changes
 
     Version?00.01.07.00.01  Date?2013-05-16
    1.           Solve the problem LXI cannot pass the test of version 1.4.  M
    2.           Solve the problem Opposite TX1000 software switch and the actual output control  M
    3.           Solve the problem unable to remotely by the socket communication.  M
    4.           Solve the problem input is out of range, the instrument can not operated.  M
    5.           Solve the problem input save operation takes too long.  M
    6.           Correct spelling errors, change ‘Input Attention ’to ‘Input Attenuation.’  M
 
[/t]   
 
 
 
 
     Version?00.01.06.00.05  Date?2013-01-10
    1.           Optimize the EMI radiation.  M
    2.           Sometimes modify RBW to cause filter shape error.  M
    3.           Solve the problem of option expiration can also continue to use.  M
    4.           OBW measurement is not accurate.  M
    5.           EBW measurement is not accurate.  M
    6.           When you insert U disk, press the print button, the local disk is selected.  M
    7.          When the TG is open, the frequency of 900MHz at a small glitch.  M
    8.           Modify the message from “Invalid option serial number” to “Invalid license key”  M
    9.           The three trial version option installed at the some time, one options expire, the other two can continue to use.  M
    10.       When EMI option is not active, the detector type can not be used.  M
    11.       In the case of high and low temperatures, the LCD screen display error.  M
    12.       Solve the problem some point amplitude difference 2~3dB.  M
    13.       Solve the problem without TG machine can not start.  M
    14.       Solve the problem when Zero Span Marker accuracy is not enough.  M
 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 07:20:31 am by jsykes »
 

Offline Matthias Toussaint

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #181 on: August 16, 2013, 06:27:45 pm »
I'm running FW 00.01.07 now. There are peaks at 900kHz, 10MHz and 750MHz. Nothing changed after upgrading from 1.06. Saving a image to an USB thumbdrive is a bit faster now. Not sure what they mean with the TG related glitch at 900MHz.

All measurements from the screenshots have been taken with TG off and a 30dB attenuator connected to the detector input (not terminated though)
 

Offline fqahmad66

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2013, 01:46:36 am »
I confirm that these signals are present in my analyser also with nothing connected. v6 here.

 

Offline jsykes

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #183 on: August 17, 2013, 03:00:29 am »
Looks like that new  ;)  10Hz RBW along with 10Hz VBW bring the noise floor down so low that these glitches appear when you may not normally see them at the designed minimum RBW of 100Hz.
 

Offline olsennTopic starter

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2013, 03:48:01 am »
Quote
Looks like that new  ;)  10Hz RBW along with 10Hz VBW bring the noise floor down so low that these glitches appear when you may not normally see them at the designed minimum RBW of 100Hz.

I wouldn't call it a glitch necessarily; this is actually a sign that the device is working well. The frequencies mentioned are being used by the DSA815 itself, and the signals are being coupled to the input. Even a simple trace on a PCB acts as an antenna; so while perhaps it may be argued that better shielding should have been used, I'd say that overall this device is performing admirably. And at 10Hz RBW that none of us should have available to us anyhow, I have to say, stop complaining, haha.
 

Offline Matthias Toussaint

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #185 on: August 17, 2013, 12:52:25 pm »
I can't recall having complained about the frequency peaks. I was just curious where these might come from.

- 10MHz must be the internal reference
- 900KHz could be the LCD display??
- 750Mhz??
 

Offline jsykes

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #186 on: August 17, 2013, 05:39:43 pm »
Quote
Looks like that new  ;)  10Hz RBW along with 10Hz VBW bring the noise floor down so low that these glitches appear when you may not normally see them at the designed minimum RBW of 100Hz.

I wouldn't call it a glitch necessarily; this is actually a sign that the device is working well. The frequencies mentioned are being used by the DSA815 itself, and the signals are being coupled to the input. Even a simple trace on a PCB acts as an antenna; so while perhaps it may be argued that better shielding should have been used, I'd say that overall this device is performing admirably. And at 10Hz RBW that none of us should have available to us anyhow, I have to say, stop complaining, haha.

I guess in so many words that's what I was saying too. I don't see these at the 100Hz setting and It wasn't designed for 10HZ RBW, so I totally agree. It's also good and fun to speculate their source. I think it's safe to say that we love our 815's  :)
 

Offline Velund

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #187 on: August 18, 2013, 03:55:44 am »
I guess in so many words that's what I was saying too. I don't see these at the 100Hz setting and It wasn't designed for 10HZ RBW, so I totally agree. It's also good and fun to speculate their source. I think it's safe to say that we love our 815's  :)

Maybe this internal leakage was one of reasons to stop offering 10 Hz RBW as a software option?
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #188 on: August 18, 2013, 11:04:28 am »
Maybe this internal leakage was one of reasons to stop offering 10 Hz RBW as a software option?

I was wondering the same. It is strange that the spurious can't be seen on 100Hz RBW, since all the signals are more than 10dB above the noise floor, and the noise floor should be 10dB up on 100Hz compared to 10Hz RBW. Makes me think that there is something else going on, like a 2nd or 3rd order intermodulation product.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline Orange

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #189 on: August 18, 2013, 11:41:59 am »
Maybe this internal leakage was one of reasons to stop offering 10 Hz RBW as a software option?

I was wondering the same. It is strange that the spurious can't be seen on 100Hz RBW, since all the signals are more than 10dB above the noise floor, and the noise floor should be 10dB up on 100Hz compared to 10Hz RBW. Makes me think that there is something else going on, like a 2nd or 3rd order intermodulation product.
Whats this fuss about a few spurs that are -125dBm, any idea how low that is ?. I geuss not.
The spurs are by no means a reason for RIGOL not include the 10Hz RBW. I think is due to the fact that their DSA1030A has 10Hz RBW standard which is 2 or 3 times as expensive.

BTW the spurs can also be seen with 100Hz RBW and 10 Hz video BW.....
 

Offline Velund

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #190 on: August 19, 2013, 11:44:34 am »
I think is due to the fact that their DSA1030A has 10Hz RBW standard which is 2 or 3 times as expensive.

DSA1030A is already out of price range that most amateurs can afford, just for hobby. And it does not add anything really valuable for amateurs - 2.4 GHz band is of little interest for the most of them. I purchased DSA815-TG (actually two of them now - one for home lab and one for a club). I'm sure i would never purchase 1030.
 
Concerning options offered for 815 - I'm completely sure I would never purchase AMK and EMC (not need at all), and doubt I would ever spend more than $100 for VSWR (I already have Eagle RLB and I almost memorized return loss to VSWR conversion table already).  ;) Concerning 10 Hz RBW - it is question of price. No immediate need for it, and I have access to higher class equipment at work.
 

Offline dpenev

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #191 on: August 19, 2013, 02:20:03 pm »
Hi Guys,

I consider using DSA815-TG for a scalar network measurements.
I want to check the behavior of a micro strip line in a range of 1GHz - 2GHz

Unfortunately DSA815-TG is up to 1.5GHz. (which BTW is OK for most of the application I have)

Can you suggest an inexpensive down converter option so I am able to see 1GHz- 2GHz.
It is OK to modify an inexpensive satellite dish LNB. Can you suggest some?
I see there are some rated at 2.2-2.4Ghz.
I saw also some ~1.8GHz. Probably the former are closer to what I need?   
I think 1GHz LO will be OK for my application. Is this only the LO which I may need to adjust?
I saw Aurora pointed some links at the beginning of this thread.   

Do you think the calibration setup will be a big burden?
How linear are those down converters?
I don't have any practical experience with those.

Any pointers and help in this respect greatly appreciated!
Dimitar 
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #192 on: August 19, 2013, 02:35:09 pm »
There is too much gain in many LNB's (many are +60dB) so you need to tame them and remove microwave filters if they do not cover the correct frequency. Microwave block down converters are great to use as 'off the shelf' and often cheap ways to 'see' a section of the microwave spectrum. Whether they are able to work at the required frequencies is another matter as most are dedicated to a task and filtered as such. The Local Oscillators are also normally at some odd frequency rather than a simple 1,2,3,4 GHz etc. A bit of simple maths is then needed to work out the displayed frequency on the SA. You also need to know whether they have a forward or reverse IF output (high or low side LO injection).

The cheap and dirty method to up and down convert is to buy a passive mixer that covers the frequencies that you want, both IF and RF, you then inject a Local oscillator at around +7dBm at the desired frequency.

In your case I would choose a mini circuits mixer that can handle the 1 to 2 GHz RF side whilst providing 0 to 1GHz Intermediate Frequency. This is all Superheterodyne (Superhet) receiver theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheterodyne_receiver

Without filtering there are issues with mixer products but if you know the frequency you are wishing to observe you should be OK . You can also upconvert the output of a Tracking Generator in the same way. In my example you could upconvert a 0 to 1 GHz sweep to 1 to 2 GHz using a 1GHz LO.

The local oscillator can be anything decent with enough drive for the mixer or use  aMMIC to amplify the drive level. Mini-circuits produce suitable VCO's that will work well for the task and they can be set to the desired frequency.

Calibration is a challenge. If you are using a VCO, you need to either Phase Lock it to a crystal or let it free run and monitor the output frequency, adjusting the frequency manually as required. A fixed, crystal controlled 1GHz oscillator would bee ideal but these are not easy to find cheaply. Amplitude calibration is best done by comparison to a signal generator producing a near-by frequency against which the level calibration may be set with an attenuator.

The simplest converter that I built was formatted as follows:

A manually trimmed 1GHz Voltage Controlled Oscillator was fed to a Minicircuits ERA MMIC RF amplifier, and then split between two mixer LO inputs using a Minicircuits splitter/combiner. The two Mixers were microwave types from minicircuits that provided an IF spec of 0-1GHz and and RF/LO of 1 to 2GHz.the LO feed requirement was +7dBm.

One mixer was fed with the output of the Tracking Generator into its IF input, producing 1 to 2 GHz from its RF output. The other mixer was fed with the RF into its RF input and produced an IF of 0 to 1GHz out to feed the SA input.

All this was done using convenient Minicircuits modules and SMA interconnects. This was the fast way to build such a unit but a cheaper method is to use any commonly available VCO and mixers that meet the desired frequency coverage. Simple SMD MMIC amplifiers may be used in combination with SMD attenuators to get the levels right.

www.minicircuits.com

With a combined up and down converter sharing the same VCO frequency, return loss and transmission tests may be carried out using a decent directional coupler. Minicircuits sell this as well !

Fraser
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 03:10:37 pm by Aurora »
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Offline dpenev

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #193 on: August 23, 2013, 12:43:37 pm »
Hi Aurora,

Thank you for the detailed explanation.
I guess there are are some 'universal' pre-made up/down converters people use together with their spectrum analyzers?

I've also noticed Linear Technology have series of frequency converters and local oscillators as an ICs.
Alternatively I may decide to built an universal down/up converter to extend my spectrum analyzer range.
Does anyone happen to know an open hardware design about this?

Thank you
Dimitar
 

Offline claude3386

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Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #194 on: August 23, 2013, 01:30:05 pm »
Hello,

ATTEN has 3 down-converters
AT5000-F1, 1050-2050MHz to 50-1050MHz
AT5000-F2, 2050-3050MHz to 50-1050MHz
AT5000-F3, 3050-4050MHz to 50-1050MHz

http://www.attenelectronics.com/Products/Instrument/Spectrum%5FAnalyzer/

I don't know how they perform.
I just got the F1 but not yet tested.

Claude
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 01:34:26 pm by claude3386 »
 

Offline dpenev

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #195 on: August 23, 2013, 09:02:04 pm »
Thanks claude3386 for the info.
Please let me know after you test it.

my problem a scalar network estimation (using the tracking generator of my spectrum aanalyzer)
So I will need a symmetrical up-converter as well.

Best Regards
Dimitar


 
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2013, 12:09:44 pm »
Quote
I want to check the behavior of a micro strip line in a range of 1GHz - 2GHz

I'm not sure what tests you want to do but could you achieve this just using a signal generator, a home made return loss bridge and a very basic home made RF detector?
i.e. you wouldn't really need a spectrum analyser,
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 12:11:44 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline tlu

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2013, 02:11:22 am »
Now that the 10Hz RBW is taken care off, will there be a chance the BW could be done the same way? Does a HW modification be needed to accomplish this?
 

Offline dpenev

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #198 on: September 20, 2013, 08:57:28 am »
Hi Guys,

I have already spend 1 day with my DSA8150TG.
Is this only me who miss a logarithmic frequency scale?
I think this is really important, especial for the filter measurements.   

I hope I have just missed to find this option. :)
Dimitar
 

Offline Orange

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #199 on: September 20, 2013, 02:58:57 pm »
Hi Guys,

I have already spend 1 day with my DSA8150TG.
Is this only me who miss a logarithmic frequency scale?
I think this is really important, especial for the filter measurements.   

I hope I have just missed to find this option. :)
Dimitar
Well. This is an RF spectrum analyser. The old school analysers I know don't have a log scale for the frequency. And to be quite honest. If you are adjusting an RF-filter you want to have a linear scale, else you might be fooled about the passband shape.
I don't recall that I have ever seen a log freq scale on an RF analyser.

 


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