Author Topic: Teledyne LeCroy WaveRunner 64xi, morphed to differential probes...  (Read 32811 times)

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Offline tautech

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I'll sketch up a little schematic for it and go over that as well for those interested.
I've got my hand up.  ;)
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Offline joeqsmith

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Played with spark gaps and corona dope most of the day.   The LeCroy still lives but it sure didn't like what I was putting it through today.   When your scope's LCD flickers and the mouse won't stay running, your doing something right.   

The video starts out comparing some basic schematics for probes then I go over the design for this probe.  After this, I show the car ignition coil setup which is very crude and then proceed to attempt to damage the probe with it.   

Keep in mind that the stub is critical just like it was with shell case probes.  I did not provide values in the schematics as I assume anyone attempting to replicate it would need to come up with their own compensation. 

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline tautech

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Thanks Joe, very entertaining.  :-+
65 KV is a great effort, but being able to safely measure it, mind blowing.  :o

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Offline joeqsmith

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Thanks Joe, very entertaining.  :-+
65 KV is a great effort, but being able to safely measure it, mind blowing.  :o

Thanks!   Glad you enjoyed them. 

The ignition coils don't produce enough energy that I get too concerned when using them.   The transorb I am currently using clamps around 7 volts, limiting the probe to 70KV.   The old LeCroy was having problems and I was already near the 70KV limit so I stopped.   

Thinking about the handle, I am considering making it all from metal and having a bell similar to the North Star PVM-3. 

http://www.highvoltageprobes.com/

Currently everything is out in the open and even without a shield over this area it still works pretty good.  It may end up being plastic.   Need to give it some more thought.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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After some thought, here's what I came up with...

I stole the ground strap idea from the Tektronix P6013A and machined a slot for a small press contact that slides in the outside insulator.   This keeps the return path away from handle side. 

Next is the new handle next to the prototype one.   The handle is held on with a large nut that threads on the back of the BNC.   It's only ground is to the BNC.

Next is the Teflon insulator that holds the handle and the compensation network.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Here is the finished probe.  The dot in the insulator is one of three set screws that holds the handle in place.     The LeCroy is showing a PP002 probe (red) against the 10,000X probe (yellow) looking at the rising edge from my HP33120A ARB at 20nS/div.   I also ran some tests with a high voltage DC power supply today using the Fluke 101 (just in case something went wrong).   

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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The last video I made showing the completed high voltage probe on the low frequency network analyzer and then compared with a LeCroy PP002A 350MHz 10X probe.   I finish up with the probe on a high voltage Spellman supply.   

The parts to build it were in the order of $100.

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Teledyne LeCroy WaveRunner 64xi, morphed to probes, now measuring power....
« Reply #107 on: November 27, 2015, 03:46:00 am »
I was cleaning out some of my crap and noticed a transformer from Austin transformers.   It's in a cylindrical metal can, sealed with solder and ceramic insulators.   It was rated for 50/60Hz and is made for isolation.   Playing around with it and it seems to have a BW in the 200KHz range.   

No idea what this thing was for but thinking to use it to make some sort of AC line power monitor probe for the old LeCroy.  Really don't have much of a need for something like this at home but seems like a simple project.   Noticed Teledyne/LeCroy offers some sort of package but I have played with it.

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/power_analyzer_datasheet.pdf 

My plan is to use this isolation transformer and a LEM sensor (also good to about 200KHz) and just post post process the data with a PC.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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Joe, excellent job on this probe. I was wondering about the voltage spikes messing with the oscilloscope and seeing your Picture I thought about a thread that mentioned BNC caps (or dust covers). The ones you are using seem to be yellow plastic, but perhaps an all-metal one that physically grounds the input may be worth trying, what do you think?

The post that references this is below:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg786287/#msg786287

Also, someone else sent a link to an eBay listing for a more reasonable quantity:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg786701/#msg786701

(edit: fixed link)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 08:21:06 am by rsjsouza »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Thanks.   I have been pretty happy with all the home made probes.   

The Caplugs covers are there to prevent mechanical damage to the connectors.  Like keeping my grubby oily hands off them.   :-DD I would imagine that most scopes inputs are fairly protected electrically.   Maybe not the bottom basement ones for cost reasons.   :-//   

Those ignition systems can sure make a lot of noise.   I would guess my PC was about 6 feet from that jig and the USB mouse on the PC was hung after test and needed to be power cycled.   This is pretty common problem with USB. It's not a robust bus.   I suspect on the LeCroy that the noise was causing the LCD interface to get corrupt.   Beyond the LCD and the mouse shutting down, there were no other problems.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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The completed power monitor adapter.   The CB has a 10A trip current and the LEM is set for about 8 Amps.   Software is mostly done.  Calculates the basic stuff.   

I'll put together some sort of demo for it.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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Thanks.   I have been pretty happy with all the home made probes.   

The Caplugs covers are there to prevent mechanical damage to the connectors.  Like keeping my grubby oily hands off them.   :-DD I would imagine that most scopes inputs are fairly protected electrically.   Maybe not the bottom basement ones for cost reasons.   :-//   

Those ignition systems can sure make a lot of noise.   I would guess my PC was about 6 feet from that jig and the USB mouse on the PC was hung after test and needed to be power cycled.   This is pretty common problem with USB. It's not a robust bus.   I suspect on the LeCroy that the noise was causing the LCD interface to get corrupt.   Beyond the LCD and the mouse shutting down, there were no other problems.
I see. Having blown or crippled inputs in the past, I tend to go a bit overboard in input protection/shielding. :) The LCD is the largest non-shielded part of the oscilloscope, therefore it is probably the most affected by EMI surges. Under certain circumstances I see this happening in my Rigol DS4014 as well.

I think the USB (and perhaps a keyboard) are your PC's "antennas" that capture all EMI spikes. Tie these with thinner shielded cables (the norm these days) and you probably get the most susceptible part of your PC.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I see. Having blown or crippled inputs in the past, I tend to go a bit overboard in input protection/shielding. :) The LCD is the largest non-shielded part of the oscilloscope, therefore it is probably the most affected by EMI surges. Under certain circumstances I see this happening in my Rigol DS4014 as well.

I think the USB (and perhaps a keyboard) are your PC's "antennas" that capture all EMI spikes. Tie these with thinner shielded cables (the norm these days) and you probably get the most susceptible part of your PC.

There's nothing wrong with being overly safe.  You may have seen my spark gaps and diode clamps that I use from time to time when I play with high voltages.    I have been lucky that I have never damaged the front end of a scope.   Not like I haven't put them at risk!  :-DD 

My old LeCroy front end actually has a battery in it that is used for part of the input protection when the scope is powered down.  The WR will open the connector and ground the ADC, which is more what I would expect .

They make a transparent film for EMI that can be placed over something like an LCD.  I wonder if the more modern industrial displays don't have some sort of layer on the glass.     

Line cord and Ethernet cables as well.  The unshielded Ethernet is fairly robust.  That USB with it's common mode problems, not so much.   Most of the USB devices I have will reset or hang when I play with the ignitions.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I put together a video showing the power measurement software with some different loads.   Labview sets up the LeCroy and then downloads several cycles.   I used the Brymen to calibrate the current and voltage.  It would be fun to try a commercial product and see how they compare with some different waveforms.     

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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After making the first power measurement video, I posted here about my attempting to improve the measurement. 

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/making-accurate-low-frequency-measurements-with-your-scope/30/

In this video I put the oversampling into practice.   



How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I picked up one of those in-line AC power meters and compared it with the DSO.  It seems to work pretty good.  Keep in mind that the meter is plugged in downstream from the DSO's monitor.  So the DSO is reading both the load and the power meter.   


How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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The SSD has been installed and running for one year today without any problems at all.   

As many problems as the 64xi had with it's knobs falling off and the one dead channel,  it's been the main one I have used and it's been rock solid.  I never did anything with the dead channel beyond my initial checkout and am very surprised it has not failed again.   

The SSD has been in the WM over a year now but it does not see near the use.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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We are now a little over a year and a half with the SSD in the 64Xi.  The SSD has been in the old 8500A about two years now.   And while I did follow some guidelines when I installed the one in the 8500A, the 64Xi was basically an image leaving all the normal settings in an attempt to see just how short the life would be.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Teledyne LeCroy WaveRunner 64xi
« Reply #118 on: June 20, 2018, 08:35:01 pm »
Put the new SSD into the system and turned it on.  Boots fast.

The long term SSD test continues.  For something that was to be problematic, we are now well past the three year mark with the one SSD in the 64xi and a whopping four years on the 8500.  I have yet to see a file get corrupt.   Just a recap for the 64xi, I made no changes to the OS to try an increase the life of the drive.  Just mirrored the drive over and called it a day.   This is still my main scope.   

Also, the knobs are still tight!  lol.
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Online rsjsouza

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That is a great report, Joe. These SSDs are surely smart so they don't wear out that easily. Although I would inagine that a regular PC would be much more data intensive than the oscilloscope, thus being the worst case scenario for these drives.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Good point.  I installed a SSD in my laptop maybe 5 years ago but it's not the primary drive.    When I finally retired my XP based P4 machine in 2016,  I used a 200G M.2 drive as the primary in the new PC.  It's too early to say but so far I have not seen any problems with it.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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I have five year-old Samsung 840 SSDs running on work laptops that do not show signs of wear - even with intensive embedded Linux and u-boot projects being built on them quite regularly for about three out of the five years.

Not SSDs, but I love the statistics put by these guys at:
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/


Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I have five year-old Samsung 840 SSDs running on work laptops that do not show signs of wear - even with intensive embedded Linux and u-boot projects being built on them quite regularly for about three out of the five years.

Not SSDs, but I love the statistics put by these guys at:
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/

I am not aware of anyone I know in person running SSDs that has had problems.  They only seem to exist on the internet.  Larger sampling or typical internet regurgitating, hard to say.     I'm sure I am setting myself up for a massive SSD failure at home.   :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online rsjsouza

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I have five year-old Samsung 840 SSDs running on work laptops that do not show signs of wear - even with intensive embedded Linux and u-boot projects being built on them quite regularly for about three out of the five years.

Not SSDs, but I love the statistics put by these guys at:
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/

I am not aware of anyone I know in person running SSDs that has had problems.  They only seem to exist on the internet. Larger sampling or typical internet regurgitating, hard to say.     I'm sure I am setting myself up for a massive SSD failure at home.   :-DD
Well, if it's on the Internet it must be true, right? :)

I have the same feel sometimes... When things go too well... Murphy is at the corner waiting to strike!
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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I have five year-old Samsung 840 SSDs running on work laptops that do not show signs of wear - even with intensive embedded Linux and u-boot projects being built on them quite regularly for about three out of the five years.

Not SSDs, but I love the statistics put by these guys at:
https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/

I am not aware of anyone I know in person running SSDs that has had problems.  They only seem to exist on the internet. Larger sampling or typical internet regurgitating, hard to say.     I'm sure I am setting myself up for a massive SSD failure at home.   :-DD
Well, if it's on the Internet it must be true, right? :)

I have the same feel sometimes... When things go too well... Murphy is at the corner waiting to strike!

I think sometimes people repost so much garbage that eventually everyone starts to believe it, only because of the shier number of posts.   :-DD

Because I have posted so many of my home made probes in this thread, I may as well continue....   

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 


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