Author Topic: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread  (Read 3408 times)

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Offline Fungus

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The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« on: September 16, 2016, 08:46:34 PM »
I think I figured out why different people are seeing different vertical response in their DS1054Zs after the latest firmware update (and maybe earlier).

It's all down to how you turn the knob. The 'scope only seems to update the vertical position when it detects a pause in the knob movement. It doesn't move continuously in an analog way.

If you're a "twiddler" (like me) then there's lots of little pauses and you get a fairly good response.

If you're a "spinner" who wants to do it on long continuous turn then you'll get quite horrible response.

I've recorded a video below which clearly shows the difference. If you can manage to turn the knob continuously for a couple of seconds without a pause then you'll get no change at all during that time.



So... if you're getting bad vertical response then it's because you're turning the knob wrong.  :popcorn:

(excuse the poor lighting, bad focus and crappy cellphone camera)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 08:48:32 PM by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 08:52:53 PM »
If this video is true then I'm sure the firmware could be changed to make it much better (maybe even perfectly responsive). Is Rigol watching this space?

PS: The people who complain about the horizontal offset response when zoomed might be seeing the same effect. Try to be more of a "twiddler".

« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 08:56:13 PM by Fungus »
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 08:57:04 PM »
so, design choices. i'm more a PID guy ;)



this is on the tek i use daily at work (horizontal is smoother)
it still lags but not that much
- this scope is ancient
- this scope is a TEKTRONIX
and, as pointed out (never occured me to be honest) tries to update continously rather than waiting for the knob to stop. i personally find it better.



what if rigol only updated the zero-indicator? that would be best for everybody, i think
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 09:09:53 PM by JPortici »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 09:08:22 PM »
this is on the tek i use daily at work (horizontal is smoother)

what if rigol only updated the zero-indicator? that would be best for everybody, i think

The DS1054Z screen is updating quickly and I don't see any reason they can't set the vertical position on every screen refresh. It's just software.

They need to get some new eyes on the code that reads the encoder knob.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 09:13:08 PM by Fungus »
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 09:11:32 PM »
Sorry, Updated!

and yes, they might be and i don't see a reason why they can't. but i can live with the 0V indicator only
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 09:16:55 PM »
Plan for Rigol: Now the measurements are all working properly you could spend a morning working on the encoder-reader code and destroy GW-Instek's user base overnight.

 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 09:59:28 PM »
put your ds1054z to pause/stop mode for better knobs respond...
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 12:38:51 AM »
Plan for Rigol: Now the measurements are all working properly you could spend a morning working on the encoder-reader code and destroy GW-Instek's user base overnight.

This would be a disaster!  There wouldn't be anything left to complain about...  Well, I guess we would still have the detent-less encoder and fan noise.  Pretty simple user upgrades.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 06:58:15 AM »
This would be a disaster!  There wouldn't be anything left to complain about...  Well, I guess we would still have the detent-less encoder and fan noise.  Pretty simple user upgrades.

There's still stuff that's sub-optimal. If you press the encoder for the vertical offset too quickly, it'll miss the event and not center the trace. However, it's possible that if the vertical response is improved, this click problem would clear up as well.

Oh, and our beloved "Pluses" is still there. ;D

It's good Rigol's working their way down the list of bugs. I hope the improvements continue. Yay!
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Offline Fungus

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2016, 10:38:00 PM »
I just found out I can control the DS1054Z via a simple telnet connection. You don't need anything fancier than that.

As a quick test I copied/pasted this into the terminal window. I wanted to see how fast the vertical position would change:
Code: [Select]
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.8
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.7
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.6
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.5
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.4
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.3
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.2
:CHAN1:OFFS -0.1
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.0
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.1
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.2
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.3
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.4
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.5
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.6
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.7
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.8
:CHAN1:OFFS 0.9
:CHAN1:OFFS 1.0

Result: About 5 steps per second - not terribly fast.  :(

I'm fairly sure that's not a hardware limitation but it's possible the internal control interface works via SCPI as well and is seeing the same problem. 5 steps per second is about what I see when I twiddle the vertical position knob expertly.

ie. There could be a microcontroller reading the front panel and sending SCPI commands to the main chip to control the 'scope.

If so, the people reading the rotary encoder on the front panel might be fighting the same five-times-per-second limitation as I'm seeing. In that case it will never go completely smoothly because the SCPI command processor is slow.

(nb. this is all just speculation, I have no idea how the thing works internally but I've seen a few similar arrangements in other devices).

If it does go over SCPI there's still room for improvement though. A constant five updates per second would be much better than the "wait for the encoder to stop then move" system they're using at the moment.

And ... it should be perfectly possible to attach an external potientiometer (or rotary encoder) for more direct control.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 11:44:49 PM by Fungus »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2016, 11:16:09 PM »
Very nice test!

People like you should work for Rigol R&D! :)

It would make their products perfect, eventually beating the A-brands.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2016, 11:34:32 PM »
Rigol can send me a private message if they want to...I'm very discrete.  :popcorn:

 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2016, 03:28:47 AM »
That's neat. I'll have to check out the term.
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Offline rstofer

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2016, 04:12:50 AM »
Plan for Rigol: Now the measurements are all working properly you could spend a morning working on the encoder-reader code and destroy GW-Instek's user base overnight.

This would be a disaster!  There wouldn't be anything left to complain about...  Well, I guess we would still have the detent-less encoder and fan noise.  Pretty simple user upgrades.

Both of which are corrected on my scope.  I finally got around to installing a replacement fan and the scope is absolutely inaudible.  The encoder has been fixed for several weeks.

Now it's perfect!
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2016, 04:56:27 AM »
Both of which are corrected on my scope.  I finally got around to installing a replacement fan and the scope is absolutely inaudible.  The encoder has been fixed for several weeks.

Which encoder/fan did you use? My warranty runs out next month and I might be finally tempted to break that sticker.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2016, 05:20:14 AM »
Both of which are corrected on my scope.  I finally got around to installing a replacement fan and the scope is absolutely inaudible.  The encoder has been fixed for several weeks.

Which encoder/fan did you use? My warranty runs out next month and I might be finally tempted to break that sticker.

https://smile.amazon.com/Fractal-Design-Silent-Cooling-FD-FAN-SSR2-50/dp/B009NP8FB4

I  bought the encoder from Newark based on this recommendation:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-rotary-encoder-mod/msg737852/#msg737852
It is perfect!



 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The DS1054Z vertical response discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2016, 05:21:33 AM »
I'm pretty sure the scope modulates the fan RPM.  It seems like it gets a wee bit louder with on time.  But still very quiet!
 


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