The very basic Rigol 1052E... why not?

[aeberbach]

I've been reading here and other places for almost 12 months wishing I could just go out an buy the DS2072 - and I know the consensus is that many other scopes are more than worth the extra money. But I need basic and cheap. So is there any compelling reason NOT to choose this scope? Anything you would recommend very close to the same money?

For what I do - infrequent and basic microcontroller-based projects, hobby only - I really don't think the most basic scope is going to hold me back, but not having one at all is certainly is holding me back. Realistically it will be used to debug very simple logic problems and then sit in the shed for 6 months until the next project, I don't think I am good enough with electronics to need any better. If I could find any trustworthy used scope to save even more money - even a huge old CRT-based monster or one of Tek's first LCD models - I'd take it, but these new Rigols seem as cheap as any used scope I can find that isn't advertised with the scary words "AS-IS".

[miguelvp]

So is there any compelling reason NOT to choose this scope? Anything you would recommend very close to the same money?

For $70 more you can get a DS1054Z with 4 channels and so many more features compared to the DS1052E that it would take a long time to list.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?b=y&v=7906

plus tequipment has a discount for EEVblog members, if you order during business hours you can click the live chat to ask for it, or ask in here.

[nixfu]

Yep.   Unless the price of the 1052 is dropped about $150 the 1054z totally blows it away for hardly any more money.


The 1054z is the best bang for the buck in the entire scope market, and now the 1052E at its old pricing is one of the worst bang for bucks.   

If your needs are really basic as you say, then a used $50 analog scope might be fine.     Most of us have one or two of those on the bench as well.    I know I do.   

[pickle9000]

Have you watched the review that just came out? Just have a look, it is a beginners scope 1054z. The review will help out no matter what you choose to buy.

[coppice]

in China the DS1052E is now being offered a lot cheaper than the DS1054Z. Maybe the price drop just hasn't yet filtered through to the western distributors. They have also started promotional offers on the DS1054Z, so I guess the backlog for that model has now cleared.

[pickle9000]

in China the DS1052E is now being offered a lot cheaper than the DS1054Z. Maybe the price drop just hasn't yet filtered through to the western distributors. They have also started promotional offers on the DS1054Z, so I guess the backlog for that model has now cleared.

And that makes for an interesting question.

The Rigol DS1047Z for 399.00 USD or another Rigol / Siglent / Hantek basic scope for what? From a feature standpoint there is no comparison the new Rigol wins. Certainly you can't sell the others for within 50 bucks of the 399 and expect them to move.

How low will the cost of these scopes go to keep them moving (selling)?

[coppice]

Have you watched the review that just came out? Just have a look, it is a beginners scope 1054z.

Why do people refer to these scopes as beginner's scopes? They are scopes for people who don't need more bandwidth, and a huge amount of engineering really doesn't need more bandwidth. There seems to be some strange notion that beginners start at DC, and work their way up to microwaves as they become experts. Unlike earlier cheap scopes, there is nothing crude about the DS1054Z which would make an experienced professional pay more, unless they need more bandwidth.

Beginners generally need advanced instruments more than experts. Experts typically see how to get the information they need in ways a beginner doesn't, and may be able to get that information with very basic tools. The one place where almost everyone need lots of bandwidth, a scope is inappropriate - EMI/EMC testing. Even the lowest frequency products need to be EMI tested up to 1GHz, but you need frequency domain tools for that work.

[pickle9000]

Have you watched the review that just came out? Just have a look, it is a beginners scope 1054z.

Why do people refer to these scopes as beginner's scopes? They are scopes for people who don't need more bandwidth, and a huge amount of engineering really doesn't need more bandwidth. There seems to be some strange notion that beginners start at DC, and work their way up to microwaves as they become experts. Unlike earlier cheap scopes, there is nothing crude about the DS1054Z which would make an experienced professional pay more, unless they need more bandwidth.

Beginners generally need advanced instruments more than experts. Experts typically see how to get the information they need in ways a beginner doesn't, and may be able to get that information with very basic tools. The one place where almost everyone need lots of bandwidth, a scope is inappropriate - EMI/EMC testing. Even the lowest frequency products need to be EMI tested up to 1GHz, but you need frequency domain tools for that work.

Not wrong, I stand corrected.

[EEVblog]

Why do people refer to these scopes as beginner's scopes? They are scopes for people who don't need more bandwidth, and a huge amount of engineering really doesn't need more bandwidth.

Very true.
The DS1054Z would be at home in any general purpose scope in any professional electronics design lab.
And bandwidth really is the major performance differentiator.

[daybyter]

What about the hantek 6022be USB scope?

[coppice]

What about the hantek 6022be USB scope?

Some people are mostly capturing data for analysis, and they tend to like USB scopes, as the data ends up right on the computer where they want it. Other people are trying to probe around a circuit and see what's there, and they tend to find the UI of USB scopes really slow and clumsy. Most modern scopes have the ability to transfer data to a computer, so they can still meet the needs of people who want to run some analysis on it. Tastes vary, but now that you can buy something like the DS1054Z for $400 I can't see headless scopes ever going mainstream.

[EEVblog]

What about the hantek 6022be USB scope?

What about it? It's a USB scope, and should not be compared with a proper benchtop scope.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Have you watched the review that just came out? Just have a look, it is a beginners scope 1054z.

Why do people refer to these scopes as beginner's scopes?

I agree, it's silly. It's a low-end scope for Christ's sake. And low end scopes are not used by beginners only.

[Mechatrommer]

I dont have problem controlling from pc. I have problem when i want to measure clean signal requiring turning off all noise generating electronics, including smps hence including the pc to control it. A reason i seldomly see in internet o not that clear why not to buy usb dependent tm devices.

[pickle9000]

Have you watched the review that just came out? Just have a look, it is a beginners scope 1054z.

Why do people refer to these scopes as beginner's scopes?

I agree, it's silly. It's a low-end scope for Christ's sake. And low end scopes are not used by beginners only.

I agree too. Although I am not an engineer I still think a good engineer will do the numbers and obtain equipment suitable for the job and not pay for unnecessary features. But OTOH engineers are people too, so they might not, especially if someone else is paying. At the very least I hope they will respect others for not riding the fanboy wagon.

So to flip my original statement over slightly.

It is an excellent scope for a beginner.

[IanB]

On the other hand, a scope used in a home lab will probably sit on a shelf and be turned on from time to time when needed. A scope used in a professional environment will probably be left running all the time and will see intensive use. So durability of components, expected number of operations of knobs and switches and mechanical durability will become important factors. I suspect higher end gear will be better able to stand up to the wear and tear of professional use than entry level gear, regardless of specifications like maximum bandwidth.

[pickle9000]

On the other hand, a scope used in a home lab will probably sit on a shelf and be turned on from time to time when needed. A scope used in a professional environment will probably be left running all the time and will see intensive use. So durability of components, expected number of operations of knobs and switches and mechanical durability will become important factors. I suspect higher end gear will be better able to stand up to the wear and tear of professional use than entry level gear, regardless of specifications like maximum bandwidth.

So true I've been torturing mine 10 hours a day for almost 2 weeks (using as the daily driver). I also make a habit of popping the cover of heavy use gear once a year, checking for issues.   

[aeberbach]

Thanks all - 1054Z it is, soon as I save just a tiny bit more.

(the USB or tablet-based scopes don't appeal at all. I just want one thing to grab, independent of whatever state my computer is in.)

[coppice]

On the other hand, a scope used in a home lab will probably sit on a shelf and be turned on from time to time when needed. A scope used in a professional environment will probably be left running all the time and will see intensive use. So durability of components, expected number of operations of knobs and switches and mechanical durability will become important factors. I suspect higher end gear will be better able to stand up to the wear and tear of professional use than entry level gear, regardless of specifications like maximum bandwidth.

Unless the cooling has been badly designed, most modern instruments don't run all that hot (which makes the noisiness of most instrument fans completely unreasonable). I doubt that running all day will have a big impact on them. I suspect the main difference in reliability and lifetime will not come from hobby vs professional use, but from how gently an owner treats things vs a non-owner. People can be really rough with instruments that are for general use.

[Wuerstchenhund]

On the other hand, a scope used in a home lab will probably sit on a shelf and be turned on from time to time when needed. A scope used in a professional environment will probably be left running all the time and will see intensive use. So durability of components, expected number of operations of knobs and switches and mechanical durability will become important factors. I suspect higher end gear will be better able to stand up to the wear and tear of professional use than entry level gear, regardless of specifications like maximum bandwidth.

Not necessarily. For power supplies and other parts the biggest stress comes from on-off cycles, not from being powered on. So a hobbyist who switches the scope on for a short time and then off, and on again only if needed might actually cause more stress to the scope than someone who just switches it on in the morning and off in the evening. Of course long operating hours will cause faster wear to things like fans, but that should not really be a problem for the first 3 to 4 years.

As to build quality, higher end kit is not necessarily built any better. The encoders and buttons used in the front panel are usually the same, and mechanical built quality for a bench scope is already more than good enough even with cheap scopes like the Rigol DS1000z Series. What you pay for in high end scopes is not better build quality but higher bandwidth, faster samplers, more memory, bigger screens, better and much more capable software and faster processing.

For professional use (i.e. 8hrs/day operation) the only worry I would have with scopes from Rigol or Siglent would be the firmware (which is often full of annoying bugs). I wouldn't worry much about the hardware.

[markce]

My answer to the initial question.
I've had the DS1052E as my first DSO (thanks Dave!), and I'm glad I did. It's less analog-like than the DS1054Z and much more basic. This helped me a lot in learning the true nature of a DSO. With limited functionality you won't get lost too often. I've hardly used a manual. Done a lot of work
with it and learned a lot.