Upgrading the lab to something decent

[Mr. Scram]

After having spent most of my life intermittently tinkering with electronics in a not too serious fashion and getting a bit more serious the past 1-2 years, it's finally time to upgrade the workbench into something more permanent. I've grown tired of every tool being a project itself, and want tools that help me get the job done, rather than having to fight them to get anywhere. A bit of  background is that I'm the owner of a tiny fledgling business. Electronics are not my core business, but I've found it to be an enjoyable and useful addition to my bag of tricks and have become a more prominent part of things because of that. I'm not quite focussing on one area, with work including the assembly and repair of my own power and CNC tools and computers, the design and manufacture of tools and components for internal use, preliminary feasibility testing and prototyping of boards to be used in actual products and possibly small scale manufacture in the future. I'm still looking into the certification and liability side of the latter. Embedded microcontrollers, small power supplies, motor control and some minor RF work are amongst the things I worked on so far. I don't mind spending money on good tools, but as with any starting business, money is very tight. Spending money here means not spending it elsewhere. It also means I'm not going to set a fixed budget, as I don't want to set a hard limit and miss out. I've looked at various options for a while now, and the time has come for you folks to take shots at my reasoning.

I've bought a Fluke 87V. I was actually looking for something much more modest, but I could pick it up at a decent price. Even though I initially felt I overspent and was prepared to dislike it for being nothing too special, I'm actually pleasantly surprised. In relevant ways, it reminds me of my Knipex tools. It can take a beating and will get the job done regardless, without much fuss or excitement. This has reinforced my belief that it pays to get some proper tools, as I've always appreciated them in other areas. I've never caught myself thinking I should have bought a worse tool for the job, but again, the budget will dictate the choices here. I've assembled to following preliminary list:

1. Rigol DS1054Z - You can hardly go wrong with this one. Even though the model is ageing a bit, there don't seem to be any competitors with an equal amount of channels and value. I've looked long and hard at the Siglent SDS1202X-E, because of its higher bandwidth, better FFT and more snappy interface, but I think the bigger memory and extra channels of the DS1054Z win out. Four channels will help looking at digital signals and working on brushless motors. I've also looked at more expensive models, but I don't see too much reason to upgrade. Any significant performance gain coincides with a huge price hike.

2. Korad 3005D-2S - The Korad is a fairly basic dual channel power supply with enough extra features to make it interesting. It has a convenient UI and all the obligatory basic options. You can also read and write data through a PC, which could be a very useful addition for some testing. I've looked at the Rigol DP832, but that's quite a bit more expensive without offering that much more. It should be more accurate, but the interface is a little more clunky. I'm not sure spending two to three times more will pay off there.

3. Quick 861DW - Considering I'm moving towards more modern components, often available only in some of the more annoying SMD packages, I thought it'd be a good idea to invest in a good hot air station. This seems to be the only option between the Aoyue models and the much more expensive Hakko or even JBC and Weller ones. I know Aoyue is known as a good budget option, but I've had a lot of trouble with my 936 station.  Even though that may very well have been a fluke [ha!], it has turned me off to the degree that I'd rather spend a bit more to get something else. This model seems to be very well liked by people who do professional board level repairs and is compatible with the commonly available Aoyue nozzles.

This should get me along my way for now. Next up would be a decent function generator, but for now I've bought a very cheap FG-100 that'll fill the gap until then. What do you guys think and have I missed any obvious options?

[nidlaX]

You've got the basics covered.

I can recommend comparing the Micsig TO1104 to the DS1054Z. They're similar in responsiveness, apples and oranges in control scheme, but the Micsig does have the advantage of a larger screen and optional battery power. Micsig cheaped out on the included probes though, they're not X1/X10 switchable... 

As for the Korad, I've used it briefly and find it to be workable, but I've ultimately moved on to much better power supplies. In my opinion, it's not worth it to put your project on the line with a cheaper power supply. My current main supply is a Siglent SPD-3303D which happens to be significantly more quiet any of the HP / Agilent power supplies I've owned.

Finally, I have nothing but good things to say about Quick and their line of hot air stations. My 957D has served me well, and I have no doubts the 861DW will be a great unit as well. If you think you'll be doing a lot of soldering, I would recommend looking into buying or building a fume extraction solution. We've been having a discussion about fume extractors in the Other Equipment forum recently.

[Mr. Scram]

You've got the basics covered.

I can recommend comparing the Micsig TO1104 to the DS1054Z. They're similar in responsiveness, apples and oranges in control scheme, but the Micsig does have the advantage of a larger screen and optional battery power. Micsig cheaped out on the included probes though, they're not X1/X10 switchable... 

As for the Korad, I've used it briefly and find it to be workable, but I've ultimately moved on to much better power supplies. In my opinion, it's not worth it to put your project on the line with a cheaper power supply. My current main supply is a Siglent SPD-3303D which happens to be significantly more quiet any of the HP / Agilent power supplies I've owned.

Finally, I have nothing but good things to say about Quick and their line of hot air stations. My 957D has served me well, and I have no doubts the 861DW will be a great unit as well. If you think you'll be doing a lot of soldering, I would recommend looking into buying or building a fume extraction solution. We've been having a discussion about fume extractors in the Other Equipment forum recently.

I should note that I've got a cobbled together electronics workshop of Chinese no-name tools and homebrew contraptions. You can get things done with them, but it's often a struggle. Now that it's becoming more than a hobby thing, the time has come to stop mucking about.

The Micsig TO1104 seems to be an interesting option. One problem I see right now, is that it costs about $200 more when delivered to my doorstep. I'll have to look into that a little more to be sure. I do like the DS1054Z being a well known and thoroughly tested model. The value of having a community ready to help isn't lost on me.

Can you elaborate on the risks you see associated with the Korad? I've seen them both sold by Dave Jones on Amazon and in the lab of Jack Ganssle, which tells me that they can't be too terrible. Out of curiosity, can you upgrade your model to a higher resolution too, like you can on the Rigol?

Finally, looking into fume extraction is a good tip for sure. I take my health in the workshop fairly serious. Looking into proper fume extraction also means being better prepared for any staff that might get hired in the distant future. I don't want to overhaul the whole shop because it's not meeting safety standards at that point and I certainly don't want them working in a shop that doesn't meet standards.

[nctnico]

IMHO when it comes to hot air you can't go wrong with the Atten 858D+ (or newer model). I don't see how spending more will get a significant advantage but then again I have not used a more expensive hot air station. A magnifier lamp is also nice to have although I wish I have space for a Mantis.

Maybe a cheap USB logic analyser can be a good investment as well. The same goes for a simple LCR meter.

Anyway, often I buy equipment when I need it for a project.

[nanofrog]

For DMM's, you'll want more than one for simultaneous measurements and they don't have to be expensive units either. For example, you can get a Uni-T UT139C for ~$34 shipped. Plenty of other options as well, but not knowing what you'd be working on, I mention the UT139C as it has decent protections in it (CAT III 600V).

I own a Quick 861DW hot air station, and it's very good IME. The unit itself has sufficient power, and the UI is intuitive to use.  The 3 presets are very nice too (i.e. use a timer/stopwatch, and you can use them to make a crude reflow profile; otherwise you can have a setting for heat shrink, leaded, and lead-free soldering/desoldering). You'll be able to do most anything with the 3 round ones they include with the station, so you don't have to go and buy a bunch of extra nozzles either. Just add specialty nozzles if/when needed.

I found making or buying shields to keep from heating nearby parts to be more useful instead (JBC makes them, but they're not exactly cheap; examples). DIY'ing them out of thin sheet metal and riveting them together will do the job as well. Even something like an aluminum soda can will suffice.

As per PSU's, I'd recommend you consider quality used linear units from eBay, particularly if you live in the US/CAN (you get greater value from multi-channel output models). Better quality for pennies on the dollar this way. 

Here's a few examples:

• GW Instek GPC-3020 (CC & CV modes for ~$60 shipped)
• Tektronix CPS250
• Systron Donner TL8-3

By going with SMD parts, you'll want some means of magnification; whether it be a simple Opti-Visor or a reasonably priced stereo microscope. Or trinocular if you want to do still photos or video without having to remove one of the eyepieces to fit an adapter suitable for your camera. I'm partial to zoom types rather than those that use fixed magnification, but the latter is a bit less expensive. BTW, you'll want ~ 4x - 10x for most work, and ~ 20x for inspection.

• Fixed Binocular (10x & 20x eyepieces)
• Zoom Binocular
• Zoom Trinocular

You can get them with different stands, such as the double boom stand which improves stability. And if you're after a trinocular type, there's a version that has simultaneous focusing between eyepieces & camera so you can take images/video while working; no loss of an eyepiece (Amscope calls it Simul-focal).

[Mr. Scram]

IMHO when it comes to hot air you can't go wrong with the Atten 858D+ (or newer model). I don't see how spending more will get a significant advantage but then again I have not used a more expensive hot air station. A magnifier lamp is also nice to have although I wish I have space for a Mantis.

Maybe a cheap USB logic analyser can be a good investment as well. The same goes for a simple LCR meter.

Anyway, often I buy equipment when I need it for a project.

The Atten seems to be a popular budget choice, but that reminds me of the Aoyue 936. I've spend too much time fighting, then troubleshooting and fixing that and I simply don't want to risk that again. I probably had some bad luck, but the money saved certainly seems to be offset by the time spent in that case. Also, due to taxing related differences between local and eBay purchases, the effective price difference between the Atten and the Quick is not as big as it would be for a consumer. Considering the relatively minor price difference and everyone seemingly being in love with the Quick, it seems to be the right choice.

I already own a cheap logic analyser, which is a great tool. I'm a bit fed up with the cheap hooks falling off their leads, so I might spend some money on better ones. One of those cheap LCR meters discussed elsewhere on the forums is also present, though I made sure to pick one in a decent housing. Getting a "real" one that can do smaller capacitances is on the "next to get" shortlist. It would be nice to verify all the components are working properly before installing them in at least some projects.

Current projects include a DC/DC SMPS that will need to be at least partially characterized and a microcontroller board it will need to power. I feel it's important to test things on the bench with some vigour, to prevent surprises later on.

[tautech]

I've looked long and hard at the Siglent SDS1202X-E, because of its higher bandwidth, better FFT and more snappy interface, but I think the bigger memory and extra channels of the DS1054Z win out. Four channels will help looking at digital signals and working on brushless motors. I've also looked at more expensive models, but I don't see too much reason to upgrade. Any significant performance gain coincides with a huge price hike.

Don't know how much of a hurry you're in, but if not you could consider waiting for these:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

I've had a 100 MHz model for a few days to test, yes there's some bugs in it that need to be be fixed before release.
I'd can't disclose any more other than to say it will give the marketplace a good shakeup is this bracket of DSO.

[Mr. Scram]

Don't know how much of a hurry you're in, but if not you could consider waiting for these:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

I've had a 100 MHz model for a few days to test, yes there's some bugs in it that need to be be fixed before release.
I'd can't disclose any more other than to say it will give the marketplace a good shakeup is this bracket of DSO.

Oh, bother. It looks like I'll have to wait for that one. Do you know when it is expected to be available in western markets? I don't mind being somewhat patient, but considering I was about to pull the trigger and it is the most needed item on the list, there are limits.

I can't quite deduce how the memory is compared to the DS1054Z. For some reason, the Rigol is ridiculously well equipped compared to the more recent competition.

[tautech]

Don't know how much of a hurry you're in, but if not you could consider waiting for these:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

I've had a 100 MHz model for a few days to test, yes there's some bugs in it that need to be be fixed before release.
I'd can't disclose any more other than to say it will give the marketplace a good shakeup is this bracket of DSO.

Oh, bother. It looks like I'll have to wait for that one. Do you know when it is expected to be available in Western markets? I don't mind being somewhat patient, but considering I was about to pull the trigger and it is the most needed item on the list, there are limits.

No dates yet, sorry.

I can't quite deduce how the memory is compared to the DS1054Z.

Two x 1 GSa/s ADC's, each has 14 Mpts available so with 4 channels On, 500 MSa/s and 7 Mpts for each channel.

[nctnico]

IMHO when it comes to hot air you can't go wrong with the Atten 858D+ (or newer model). I don't see how spending more will get a significant advantage but then again I have not used a more expensive hot air station. A magnifier lamp is also nice to have although I wish I have space for a Mantis.

Maybe a cheap USB logic analyser can be a good investment as well. The same goes for a simple LCR meter.

Anyway, often I buy equipment when I need it for a project.

The Atten seems to be a popular budget choice, but that reminds me of the Aoyue 936.

Aoyue soldering stations are utter crap. I used to have the SMT tweezers and it ended up in the bin. However (IMHO) hot air is hot air. Not so much that can go wrong with that. I have been using my 858D+ for many rework and heavy soldering jobs and it performs well. I do have a spare 858D+ unit on hand though.

[Fungus]

1. Rigol DS1054Z - You can hardly go wrong with this one.

I agree, Dave agrees, but prepare to be assaulted ...

[Fungus]

Don't know how much of a hurry you're in, but if not you could consider waiting for these:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

We also know that Rigol is working on a completely new custom chipset for their oscilloscopes.

Also: Next year's car will be better than this year's! Maybe nobody should ever buy a car, just in case...

[MrW0lf]

Also: Next year's car will be better than this year's! Maybe nobody should ever buy a car, just in case...

Nope. Usually they f**k up everything with facelift. They completely ruined Toyota GT86 looks.

[exe]

We also know that Rigol is working on a completely new custom chipset for their oscilloscopes.

I thought that was for higher-end scopes...

[nanofrog]

We also know that Rigol is working on a completely new custom chipset for their oscilloscopes.

I thought that was for higher-end scopes...

It's targeted for the 1 - 4GHz range according to the press release, though it's possible it could be used in lower BW models at some point.

[Fungus]

We also know that Rigol is working on a completely new custom chipset for their oscilloscopes.

I thought that was for higher-end scopes...

I'm sure it will trickle downwards after the higher-end 'scopes are released at the end of the year.

[nctnico]

Don't know how much of a hurry you're in, but if not you could consider waiting for these:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

We also know that Rigol is working on a completely new custom chipset for their oscilloscopes.

And we also know it will be riddled with bugs for at least a couple of years after introduction. 

[Mr. Scram]

No dates yet, sorry.

Two x 1 GSa/s ADC's, each has 14 Mpts available so with 4 channels On, 500 MSa/s and 7 Mpts for each channel.

I understand you can't give us any dates, but might you be able to indicate a month or even a quarter? Failing all those, based on your previous experience with domestic releases and the subsequent release on western markets, what would you say is a reasonable time to be expected between the two?

Just don't like the sailor who wishes for a better boat. Until you get it wet you'll still just be a boat owner.

This sailor is done with having to patch his boat and not getting quite anywhere as a result of it.

[tautech]

No dates yet, sorry.

Two x 1 GSa/s ADC's, each has 14 Mpts available so with 4 channels On, 500 MSa/s and 7 Mpts for each channel.

I understand you can't give us any dates, but might you be able to indicate a month or even a quarter? Failing all those, based on your previous experience with domestic releases and the subsequent release on western markets, what would you say is a reasonable time to be expected between the two?

Can't because I don't know them.
Best guess is in the OP is the linked thread, maybe before I don't honestly know.

[ruairi]

I would pick up a Rigol 1054Z and start having fun and getting some work done now, forget waiting for vaporware.  The great thing about the 1054Z being so ubiquitous  is that used prices are strong, you could sell in a years time if you outgrow it or something better comes along.

I'm a believer in good tools and some of my gear far exceeds my requirements and even my abilities but it is a lot of fun to use.

[STMartin]

If you don't specifically need a programmable power supply, I'm a big fan of HP/Agilent's linear supplies. Something along the lines of an E3610A or an E3620A; simple and reliable.

They can be found used on eBay for around $150. You can also find broken ones for $90 or so. In my experience it's usually something dead simple to fix: bad solder joints on the main switch, blown fuse, loose wire, etc.

[tggzzz]

This should get me along my way for now. Next up would be a decent function generator, but for now I've bought a very cheap FG-100 that'll fill the gap until then. What do you guys think and have I missed any obvious options?

Ignore the possibility of other equipment - for now. Use the equipment to do something, anything that interests you.

When you can't do X, first use imagination (and skill) to try to find a different way to achieve X without buying anything. If you can't, then you will be able to write a specification for what you need to buy.

Don't forget that everything has a learning curve; too much stuff => too long learning!

Having said that, you don't mention soldering and vision equipment. For the latter, a cheap way of finding what you do/don't need is the ~£20 head-mounted visors with changeable lenses. Don't forget good adjustable lighting; I find bench-mounted LEDs on a long gooseneck are very useful.

[Mr. Scram]

For DMM's, you'll want more than one for simultaneous measurements and they don't have to be expensive units either. For example, you can get a Uni-T UT139C for ~$34 shipped. Plenty of other options as well, but not knowing what you'd be working on, I mention the UT139C as it has decent protections in it (CAT III 600V).

I own a Quick 861DW hot air station, and it's very good IME. The unit itself has sufficient power, and the UI is intuitive to use.  The 3 presets are very nice too (i.e. use a timer/stopwatch, and you can use them to make a crude reflow profile; otherwise you can have a setting for heat shrink, leaded, and lead-free soldering/desoldering). You'll be able to do most anything with the 3 round ones they include with the station, so you don't have to go and buy a bunch of extra nozzles either. Just add specialty nozzles if/when needed.

I found making or buying shields to keep from heating nearby parts to be more useful instead (JBC makes them, but they're not exactly cheap; examples). DIY'ing them out of thin sheet metal and riveting them together will do the job as well. Even something like an aluminum soda can will suffice.

As per PSU's, I'd recommend you consider quality used linear units from eBay, particularly if you live in the US/CAN (you get greater value from multi-channel output models). Better quality for pennies on the dollar this way. 

Here's a few examples:

• GW Instek GPC-3020 (CC & CV modes for ~$60 shipped)
• Tektronix CPS250
• Systron Donner TL8-3

By going with SMD parts, you'll want some means of magnification; whether it be a simple Opti-Visor or a reasonably priced stereo microscope. Or trinocular if you want to do still photos or video without having to remove one of the eyepieces to fit an adapter suitable for your camera. I'm partial to zoom types rather than those that use fixed magnification, but the latter is a bit less expensive. BTW, you'll want ~ 4x - 10x for most work, and ~ 20x for inspection.

• Fixed Binocular (10x & 20x eyepieces)
• Zoom Binocular
• Zoom Trinocular

You can get them with different stands, such as the double boom stand which improves stability. And if you're after a trinocular type, there's a version that has simultaneous focusing between eyepieces & camera so you can take images/video while working; no loss of an eyepiece (Amscope calls it Simul-focal).

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. The Fluke 87V is my fifth DMM, so I'm covered doing multiple measurements. I have an old hardware store meter, one Bside ADM01 from back when I first got more seriously interested in electronics, two AN8008 meters to do power and efficiency readings and the Fluke 87V to finally get something decent for higher voltages. What's still missing is a decent logging multimeter, which might be a Brymen or just maybe Dave's new meter. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

I've yet to hear a negative comment about the Quick station, so that seems to be a done deal. Louis Rossmann said he would do a review of the thing this week, so that might be interesting.

The power supplies are another story. I agree with you that looking for second hand brands and models that are known to be of decent quality is a good idea. Following up up on your comment, but being located in the EU, I haven't seen anything that makes a lot of sense t me. eBay has allowed me to score a few good deals, but as far as power supplies go, it doesn't appear to be so. I saw one beat up single channel HP unit go for more than the new dual channel programmable unit would cost me. Yes, I know, apples to oranges, but still. I am still going back and forth on getting two separate Korad units, one dual channel unit or a Rigol, but the dual channel Korad seem to make the most sense. It never hurts to have more options, so upgrading to something more decent later while keeping the Korad around for the more "hold my beer" kind of experiments is viable. I will be sure to keep checking the various channels until I actually make a purchase. Something might pop up.

Magnification is something I've been looking at, but I think I will see how that pans out in practice. I will find out quickly enough whether I desperately need to invest in optical equipment. Getting one of those cheap but half-decent USB microscopes might be a workable in-between until then. If I do spend money, I'd rather do it right the first time and unfortunately, that does not represent a trivial amount of money.

[Mr. Scram]

I would pick up a Rigol 1054Z and start having fun and getting some work done now, forget waiting for vaporware.  The great thing about the 1054Z being so ubiquitous  is that used prices are strong, you could sell in a years time if you outgrow it or something better comes along.

I'm a believer in good tools and some of my gear far exceeds my requirements and even my abilities but it is a lot of fun to use.

I'm not sure I would qualify it as vapourware due to it apparently being available and released in some parts of the world. However, after going back and forth for a while I do think I agree with you. Waiting for a model that may or may not show in the next 6 months, that may or may not have the features I expect and require, which may or may not be receiving favourable reviews from the community, which may or may not have serious issues that need even more time to be fixed and may or may not be considerably more expensive, due to its two channel brother being as expensive as the DS1054Z doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. I can't sit still for 6 months or more based on a vague promise and the DS1054Z will still be a very decent tool after the competition surpasses it.

At worst, I could always sell it and spend some more money on the upgrade, but knowing my buying habits, that doesn't seem too likely.

[tautech]

I would pick up a Rigol 1054Z and start having fun and getting some work done now, forget waiting for vaporware.  The great thing about the 1054Z being so ubiquitous  is that used prices are strong, you could sell in a years time if you outgrow it or something better comes along.

I'm a believer in good tools and some of my gear far exceeds my requirements and even my abilities but it is a lot of fun to use.

I'm not sure I would qualify it as vapourware due to it apparently being available and released in some parts of the world. However, after going back and forth for a while I do think I agree with you. Waiting for a model that may or may not show in the next 6 months, that may or may not have the features I expect and require, which may or may not be receiving favourable reviews from the community, which may or may not have serious issues that need even more time to be fixed and may or may not be considerably more expensive, due to its two channel brother being as expensive as the DS1054Z doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. I can't sit still for 6 months or more based on a vague promise and the DS1054Z will still be a very decent tool after the competition surpasses it.

At worst, I could always sell it and spend some more money on the upgrade, but knowing my buying habits, that doesn't seem too likely.

Lots of surmising and short on facts.
I have one for testing and it far exceeds capabilities of its lesser two channel brother.
Mentioned/suspected release dates are reasonably accurate....far less than 6 months.