Will Keysight upgrade the 2000, 3000T X-Series Oscilloscopes within a few months

[memset]

I'd be very surprised if they haven't been working on the Megazoon V (or whatever) for many years now.

In case we talk about embedded scopes, they seem to be build around custom ADC and custom acq/visualizer ASIC's.

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

That's a nice way of use of mature components in low/mid level products, but Agilent is forced to spend two ADCs/ASICs to build 4-channel models with decent specifications.

I think the next round of 3000/4000-series replacement may utilize one for 4 channels, full or cutdown variant of 20GSa/s 10bit ADC currently found in DSOS series with some new single chip visualizer. I'd bet for replacement announce in year 2018 or even later with a range of 200 MHz - 2.5GHz+ of pure software license-limited bandwidth with 10GSa/s to 20GSa/s sample rate.
If they'll go more conservative and greedy way, ADC would be 8 bit from DSO9000-series, not 10 bit from DSOS.

[Hydrawerk]

I think that Tek MSO2000 has not been upgraded since 2008. http://www.tek.com/oscilloscope/mso2000-dpo2000

[Someone]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

[Gandalf_Sr]

As Steve has already stated, Keysight have their own store on eBay where you can buy used equipment for way less than list price with either a full warranty or a 30 day warranty, I bought my MSO7104 there for a fraction of the new price.

[Faith]

I hope that they could have another offer that suits more of my needs. For example, Tetronix has an offer of more bandwidth.

As I and many others have mentioned before (both in this thread and one of your previous ones); there's many promotions to be had if you're willing to look for them. See:

If that's the route you're going to take however I would recommend buying it from Keysight's Premium Used store on eBay.

From over there the top-of-the-line MSOX2024A (200MHz 4+8 Channel) costs less than the MSOX2002A (70MHz 2+8 Channel) would if you were to buy it "new."

The MSOX2024A which I borrow on occasion was purchased from there and it really is indistinguishable from a used unit. It's thoroughly refurbished and comes with new calibration and new five-year warranty.

Just to clarify the MSOX2024A is US$1,975.05 on Keysight's Premium Used eBay store whereas its list price is normally US$3,591.00 (prior to any promotions or further discounts).

If you are adamant on buying Keysight then that's one option. Another option would be to buy the MSOX3104T (1GHz 4+8 Channel) also from their Premium Used store on eBay for US$6,584.00 (list price is US$16,025).

Given those offers (amongst others which appear from time to time) it doesn't really make any sense at all to pay whatever the list price is.

[Faith]

Also I should add that with regards to the MSOX3104T if you absolutely do not need the bandwidth then any promotion becomes kinda moot as well.

For myself I would rather pay list price for the MSOX3024T than get the MSOX3104T at a third of the price because the MSOX3024T is still cheaper and for my case at least I know that I do not require the 1GHz bandwidth.

And once you're looking at oscilloscopes in this pricing territory I'd seriously consider taking a page from Wuerstchenhund's book if I were you and look at the Teledyne LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000.

Even if you still end up buying Keysight it's a good to know what's out there and it's also a good negotiation tool whenever you mention Keysight to LeCroy and LeCroy to Keysight.

At the end of the day only you can decide what's best for the work you require. Given the nature of your questions though you really ought to ask yourself whether you really need an oscilloscope at this point of time. Especially one in this price class.

You'd be surprised at how much you can debug without one especially in the realm of "robotics research" (as per your original thread).

Back when I used to program a lot in C my applications would be riddled with loads of debug-related printf()'s which could be globally enabled/disabled by a DEFINE.

[LabSpokane]

If you know what you want, just contact Oliver via the Keysight eBay store and tell him.  Within reason, he will bundle things up the way you want, even including a one year warranty on certain items (for a fee). 

[Wuerstchenhund]

I think the next round of 3000/4000-series replacement may utilize one for 4 channels, full or cutdown variant of 20GSa/s 10bit ADC currently found in DSOS series with some new single chip visualizer. I'd bet for replacement announce in year 2018 or even later with a range of 200 MHz - 2.5GHz+ of pure software license-limited bandwidth with 10GSa/s to 20GSa/s sample rate.
If they'll go more conservative and greedy way, ADC would be 8 bit from DSO9000-series, not 10 bit from DSOS.

That is extremely unlikely, for various reasons. One of that is cost because 10+GS/s ADC hybrids aren't exactly cheap, and the 10bit variants a lot less so (a single hybrid from the DSO-S alone costs them probably as much as a complete DSOX3kT to make).

Also, it would be pretty idiotic to put 10GSa/s or 20GSa/s hybrids in entry-level scopes with bandwidths of 1GHz and less where such excessive sample rates have zero benefit.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

I think Daniel from Keysight mentioned in another thread that the MegaZoom IV memory is indeed DDR2.

[Someone]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

I think Daniel from Keysight mentioned in another thread that the MegaZoom IV memory is indeed DDR2.

Its not in the forum search function of all Daniels posts, and there are no matches on google hence the wondering about the source.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

I think Daniel from Keysight mentioned in another thread that the MegaZoom IV memory is indeed DDR2.

Its not in the forum search function of all Daniels posts, and there are no matches on google hence the wondering about the source.

I found the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparing-agilent-infiniivision-2000-and-3000-x-series-oscilloscopes/?all

Although it seems Daniel only mentioned DDR.

[Someone]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

I think Daniel from Keysight mentioned in another thread that the MegaZoom IV memory is indeed DDR2.

Its not in the forum search function of all Daniels posts, and there are no matches on google hence the wondering about the source.

I found the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparing-agilent-infiniivision-2000-and-3000-x-series-oscilloscopes/?all

Although it seems Daniel only mentioned DDR.

Which is not describing whats in the current ASIC but what alternatives might be.

[EEVblog]

And once you're looking at oscilloscopes in this pricing territory I'd seriously consider taking a page from Wuerstchenhund's book if I were you and look at the Teledyne LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000.

You mean Siglent SDS3000 

[Faith]

And once you're looking at oscilloscopes in this pricing territory I'd seriously consider taking a page from Wuerstchenhund's book if I were you and look at the Teledyne LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000.

You mean Siglent SDS3000 

Hahaha. I was actually wondering a couple of days ago whether or not the WaveSurfer 3000 also suffers from Siglent's (in?)famous "rust." I couldn't find any teardown photos or videos anywhere however >,<"...

And to eeguy; just to make life a little more interesting for you, have a look at the Rohde & Schwarz RTM.

Rohde & Schwarz are also having some sort of Mixed Signal promotion of their own until the end of the year which also includes licenses.

[tautech]

And once you're looking at oscilloscopes in this pricing territory I'd seriously consider taking a page from Wuerstchenhund's book if I were you and look at the Teledyne LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000.

You mean Siglent SDS3000 

Not sure what point you're trying to make Dave but yes the HW is made by Siglent but both the SDS3k and the WS3k are formally a joint effort development between Siglent and LeCroy.

First revealed here by rf-loop:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/

[Gandalf_Sr]

One extra bit of information, if you're considering a purchase from Keysight's eBay store, is that all their listings seem to include a 'Best Offer' option and many people have found, myself included, that they will accept an offer that's 10% less than their asking price.

One other thing to consider is the probes because, when buying from the Keysight eBay store, you don't get any.  You can pick up used probes on eBay but go carefully because it's a bit of a crap shoot on serviceability; I've bought some that didn't work but, overall, it's been worthwhile - I now own a full range of probes that cover most of my needs.

[Faith]

One other thing to consider is the probes because, when buying from the Keysight eBay store, you don't get any.  You can pick up used probes on eBay but go carefully because it's a bit of a crap shoot on serviceability; I've bought some that didn't work but, overall, it's been worthwhile - I now own a full range of probes that cover most of my needs.

You do get probes with items sold as "Premium Used." For all other items you'll have to check the item description.

[eeguy]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

I read somewhere in the forum that although the 2000, 3000T X-Series oscilloscopes have less memory than scopes of other brands that are cheaper, the memory of the Keysight oscilloscopes are sufficient (or better?) because of some kind of efficient hardware implementation and ASIC. Is that right?

I think Daniel from Keysight mentioned in another thread that the MegaZoom IV memory is indeed DDR2.

Its not in the forum search function of all Daniels posts, and there are no matches on google hence the wondering about the source.

I found the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparing-agilent-infiniivision-2000-and-3000-x-series-oscilloscopes/?all

Although it seems Daniel only mentioned DDR.

Which is not describing whats in the current ASIC but what alternatives might be.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Even the very recent 3000T is build on 13-years old ADC (Talon from year 2003) and DDR2-based Megazoom (IV?) ASIC. Obviously, both key components are somewhat outdated.

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

I think Daniel from Keysight mentioned in another thread that the MegaZoom IV memory is indeed DDR2.

Its not in the forum search function of all Daniels posts, and there are no matches on google hence the wondering about the source.

I found the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparing-agilent-infiniivision-2000-and-3000-x-series-oscilloscopes/?all

Although it seems Daniel only mentioned DDR.

Which is not describing whats in the current ASIC but what alternatives might be.

Then ask Daniel. He's at the soruce and I'm sure will happily tell you or try to find out for you.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't DDR2, though.

[EEVblog]

Not sure what point you're trying to make Dave but yes the HW is made by Siglent but both the SDS3k and the WS3k are formally a joint effort development between Siglent and LeCroy.

It's a Siglent rebadger, I was told that today by R&S themselves. But yes, LeCroy had some input, probably on par with Keysight helping with Rigol's scopes they rebadged, which I believe wasn't a huge amount.

[memset]

Do you have a reference for that? The memory is embedded on the megazoom IV ASIC (and likely has a similar amount if not more video memory than acquisition memory) but is it a DDR2 cell?

Embedded ASIC memory should be SRAM. But inside DSOX you can find one DDR2 chip connected to each Megazoom ASIC. I have no idea for that type of buffer it is used for.

[memset]

Also, it would be pretty idiotic to put 10GSa/s or 20GSa/s hybrids in entry-level scopes with bandwidths of 1GHz and less where such excessive sample rates have zero benefit.

Not in year 2018+. Isn't it idiotic to put 5GSa/s ADC into 100MHz DSOX3014T?

Also, ADC is just a CMOS chip (okay, two chips MCM for 10-bit DSOS ADC). The more of them you make, the less each one costs.
I think in several years DSOX3000/DSOX4000 replacement should be up to 2,5GHz or even up to 5GHz BW. MSOY3254A.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Also, it would be pretty idiotic to put 10GSa/s or 20GSa/s hybrids in entry-level scopes with bandwidths of 1GHz and less where such excessive sample rates have zero benefit.

Not in year 2018+. Isn't it idiotic to put 5GSa/s ADC into 100MHz DSOX3014T?

Not when the scope series offers bandwidths up to 1GHz, which the DSOX3000 Series does. Also, the DSOX3000T is pretty much a DSOX4000A in a smaller case and with smaller screen, and that one goes to 1.5GHz, hence the 5GSa/s sample rate. Using the same front end and acquisition system on the DSOX3kT reduces costs and gives the DSOX3kT additional features over the DSOX3kA.

There is absolutely no point putting a 10GSa/s+ hybrid in a scope that has a max BW of 1GHz (or even 1.5GHz for that matter). All it does is using up available sample memory faster, without providing even the slightest benefit to the user.

I doubt any sane engineer would do that.

Also, ADC is just a CMOS chip (okay, two chips MCM for 10-bit DSOS ADC). The more of them you make, the less each one costs.

Not as much as you think. Plus the costs only go down after you've produced a large number, which means there'd be a pretty high initial outlay that KS would have to carry.

I think in several years DSOX3000/DSOX4000 replacement should be up to 2,5GHz or even up to 5GHz BW. MSOY3254A.

Again, that's extremely unlikely. The bandwidths haven't really changed in the last 20+ years, 100Mhz was entry-level back then as it was today, and 500/600MHz is still pretty much the general limit of the entry-level segment, and 1GHz/1.5Ghz the upper limit of the mid-range segment. And that is for a reason, because the general bandwidth requirements for entry-level and mid-range classes haven't changed dramatically over the years (high-end on the other side has, quite dramatically so), and there is no sign that this will be different in the next 10 years or so.

The successor of the DSOX3kT will most certainly still cover BWs up to 1GHz, and it's successor will also still cover BWs up to 1GHz, and so on.

I'm sorry but none of your ideas have any roots in reality.

[nctnico]

With high speed busses and things like wireless data links becoming more common I have to disagree that 100MHz is will stay entry level and 1GHz is on the high end range. It wouldn't surprise me if 1GHz+ is standard in a few years when you look slightly above the low end segment.

[Wuerstchenhund]

With high speed busses and things like wireless data links becoming more common I have to disagree that 100MHz is will stay entry level and 1GHz is on the high end range. It wouldn't surprise me if 1GHz+ is standard in a few years when you look slightly above the low end segment.

1GHz is already in the top end of the upper mid-range, and pretty much the entry into the high end segment. And I very much doubt that this will change much in the years to come, for various reasons.

First, even if you assume that high speed 20+GSa/s ADCs will become dirt cheap in the near future (which is very unlikely), a multi-GHz front end isn't exactly cheap either. Plus, with the amount of data the scope has to process at least quadrupled, you'll need a much stronger processing backend. There's a reason why high bandwidth scopes are huge and full of fans, and it's extremely optimitic to think that the same processing power will be doable in a $20 low-power embedded platform in only a few years.

Also, even when assuming that all that is solved (which I doubt very much), a 1GHz+ scope still requires a 1+GHz probing solution which alone costs north of $2k per channel, and the costs for that aren't going away anytime soon. 1Ghz actually isn't too bad but a bit higher and probing can get really excessive, both effort and cost-wise. It's extremely unlikely that this will reach entry-level budget in a few years, or pretty much ever. And what's the hobbyist going to do with a multi-GHz scope and no probes?

I also disagree that a few years down the road hobbyists will be requiring 1+GHz bandwidth. Most hobbyist projects are fine with existing standard busses (RS-232/485, I2C, SPI, CAN, LIN, FlexRay, 10/100Mbps Ethernet), and I can't see that changing for the forseeable future. And where faster communication standards are needed, hobbyists are far better off by buying ready-made pre-qualified communication blocks (like the ones you can buy for WiFi or GSM) instead of developing a multi-GHz solution on their own (something that even for more experienced engineers isn't exactly a cakewalk, RF can be devil-ish) and buying multi-GHz gear plus probing solution to test that.