Author Topic: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3  (Read 144800 times)

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Online PlainName

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #200 on: May 07, 2017, 06:37:03 am »
I had a special requirement so emailed them and they gave me a price list. The process then is to send them the money and email to say what you've sent it for, although doing it like that might just be peculiar to my situation. There were a number of back-and-forth emails over 2 or 3 days - bearing in mind the time zone differences, I was actually kind of impressed that I could email and get a replay and then a reply to my reply all in a day.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #201 on: May 07, 2017, 08:32:08 am »
I had a standard online shop process with direct Paypal payment. For some unknown reason they removed that a couple of months later and switched to the old school quote process all major test equipment vendors seem to tend to insist on.
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #202 on: May 07, 2017, 10:57:18 am »
I suspect the reason for no prices listed or direct simple purchase is the introduction of regional distributors, The distributors will have sole selling rights in their region and will likely set the retail prices. I3 would not wish to list their direct sales prices or accept orders from regions served by a distributor.

Just my theory, no confirmed reason for the change.

Fraser
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Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #203 on: May 07, 2017, 11:13:35 am »
I have been looking at the many Thermal Expert videos on you tube produced by Alex. I was surprised at how obvious the rolling shutter was in the videos when moving the camera. This is the only time I have seen this in a thermal camera and I think I know why.

Most modern thermal cameras that are frame rate restricted to <9fps actually read the microbolometer at full frame rate to avoid the rolling shutter effect. The frame store outputs the complete images at the required lower frame rate.

The Dual use Technology regulation compliant Thermal Expert (and Therm App) cameras appear to read the microbolometer at the <9fps rate so the rolling shutter is very obvious when panning. It makes a mess of verticals in the scene. The slow read out of the microbolometer effectively reduces the data rate that the camera dongle processor has to handle.

The slow read out of the microbolometer is a pity as it does spoil some of the videos. Still images present no issues. I understand that the Therm App is available in 25fps version for the USA. They are likely just increasing the master clock to the ROIC on the microbolometer and all video processing is reconfigured for the faster frame rate output to the host.

Opinions are invited from TE-Q1 owners on the apparently slow rolling shutter issue. Is it even an issue ?

Fraser
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:13:51 pm by Fraser »
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Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #204 on: May 07, 2017, 11:23:17 am »
Thinking about it, the slow read out rate of the microbolometer may explain the nice low noise images that the TE-Q1 produces.

Pro's and Cons of the design I suppose

Fraser
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Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2017, 12:21:34 pm »
I just remembered that I have a camera in my collection that is an extreme example of a camera providing better noise reduction in images due to a slow frame rate...... in this case, a VERY slow frame rate of 0.6fps !

I own a nice example of the Inframetrcs ThermaSnap. It is a sort of Thermal 'Stills' Camera !

The camera uses a Honeywell linear vertical thermal sensor array of IIRC 128 pixels. It is uncooled and i do not know the pixel response time characteristics.
The pixel sensor array is mounted on a sled that is traversed across the lens FOV over a period of around 1.5 Seconds.... yes 1.5 Seconds ! In that time the pixels have plenty of time to respond to the thermal scene and some very low noise images can be produced.

This is just a crude example of how a lower frame rate provides more 'signal' to the system to work with, but only if the slow frame rate is achieved at the ROIC on the microbolometer array and not in the video processing stages that follow. The down side is increased lag in the image update causing 'jaggies' in the image. I am wondering if hand shake produces small jaggies on verticals and so some loss of definition in the image ?

A very close look at an image produced with the camera hand held might reveal such issues.

What I am now considering is whether i can live with such a low frame rate 'at ROIC' 'characteristic' in a thermal camera. Hmmmmmm  :-//

Fraser
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:15:52 pm by Fraser »
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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2017, 12:37:10 pm »
The pixel sensor array is mounted on a sled that is traversed across the lens FOV over a period of around 1.5 Seconds.... yes 1.5 Seconds ! In that time the pixels have plenty of time to respond to the thermal scene
Umm not so much... if I assume it's 128x128 then the row of pixels only spends 1.5/128 = 11.7ms at each location. A camera running at 9fps exposes all its pixels 111ms or about 10x longer :)

What I am now considering is whether i can live with such a low frame rate 'at ROIC' 'characteristic' in a thermal camera. Hmmmmmm  :-//
What are your actual requirements? Those of us who have one could test stuff, but I must say your ramblings aren't really clear on what you're looking for. Seems video might be more of interest than stills?
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2017, 01:51:59 pm »
Ramblings... OK understood. I will not bother commenting on the design further.

A minor clarification, I was comparing the 1.5 second ThermaSnap scan to that of a conventional 60fps or 120fps Readout rate of a microbolometer, as commonly found in most thermal cameras. The ThermaSnap is also 128 pixel Parallel readout and not serial like modern microbolometer s. That is to say, it is more efficient in its collection of data. Your point is well noted however. The ThermaSnap was a poor example to use. Nuf said.

I am a collector and user of the technology. I repair them for fun and like to better understand each camera I own. I do not 'need' another thermal camera...... I am way over the 50 mark in my collection of high end cameras.

I have no intention of wasting £700 on a flawed design that ends up annoying me when in use. Running the ROIC at 9fps readout is normally an appalling idea, simple as that. They are normally run at 30,60 or 120 frames per second in my cameras.

Anyway, never mind. I have asked a thermal camera designer for his thoughts and will decide whether I want a Thermal Expert with its slow rolling shutter
and likely associated  movement restrictions.

I would not wish to ramble on any more and annoy you so that is all from me in this thread.

Fraser
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:18:32 pm by Fraser »
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Offline joe-c

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2017, 03:14:24 pm »
My way to a Thermal Expert:
well... i bough the Thermal expert over Email. i ask for price and after confirming the price i pay over paypal with "send money". after round about 7 days i had my device. i confirm the checkout is not that comfortable and you have to trust the company... but it seems to be the only was at this time.  ???

to the device itself.
i also guess before, a missing internal shutter is a bad thing, but now i know, the detector is so good that you need a NUC not really much.
the Drift of the detector while warmup is not much.
If i can bough a Seek Thermal Pro or a Thermal Expert... (NOT PRO!) i ever choose the Thermal Expert.

Additional... the TEQ1 was limited to 150°C...but only for the preview in the Phone App. The stored images and the PC access don't have this limit.

the Camera is a little bit special, the App is not perfect, the Analysis software too... but there a alternative  ::)
see the attached image... my Camera (TEQ1... the silver one, not the red "Pro") delivers temperatures up to 300°C.
Freeware Thermal Analysis Software: ThermoVision_Joe-C
Some Thermal cameras: Kameras
 

Offline mahony

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #209 on: May 07, 2017, 03:34:24 pm »
I can just confirm basically all the data Joe-C posted.
I can additionally state that the temperature readings above the 'factory-limit' are quite well too. I had the chance to capture a couple of images and videos where a set of professional blackbody sources were present. The hottest of them was set 200°C which almost perfectly was displayed by the TE-Q1+ (~195...205°C across the quite large BB area using my own software w/ Zadig USB driver on a windows laptop).

The biggest drawback for me is still the 9Hz frame-rate and the slightly limited selection of optics (I would like to get hands on something ~50mm), but regarding image quality vs. price I am still absolutely pleased with that camera. The next best option for me would be some FLIR Boson Core - but that is slightly out of my hobby budget  :'(

PS: By the way is anyone of the Germans interested in a raw Germanium lens 25mm diameter and 65mm focal length w/ 8-14micron AR coating - I am planning on ordering one from some chin. company. price offer is 48$ plus shipping/customs...) for 1 or 2 lenses getting cheaper from 10 or more....
 
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Offline Eddy

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #210 on: September 04, 2017, 10:52:17 am »
Hi,

I'm planning to buy a Q1.
But I'm afraid for the very high import taxes to Belgium.
Did all you buyers had to pay taxes, customs administration,... ?

Does TE provide an invoice in the parcel, or is there a price indication on the parcel? Do they make it lower, like most Chinese companies do?  ;)
I think taxes are lower on camera's and lenses. I'm not sure if this has changed.
With carrier to they use?

Maybe a Seek bought here local is a more affortable option?

Thanks for your answers.

Eddy.
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #211 on: September 04, 2017, 12:35:00 pm »
Seek is more affordable for sure but it produces very noisy low detail images...

When I imported TE Q1 Plus from i3systems it was delivered by DHL.

At import I had to pay:

18€ Customs duty
137€ VAT (22%) (Stupid ass****s at customs office always add shipping expenses to the value of the goods, before they calculate 22% VAT)
19€ cost of import procedure
-----
174€

So I paid 600$ for Q1 Plus, 60$ for shipping and 174€ for import. Together approx 770€.
But I don't regret buying it because image quality is really exceptional.

 

Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #212 on: September 04, 2017, 03:18:28 pm »
Sadly importation charges, duties and taxes are common for this sort of expensive equipment.

A courier is often used as it is safer. They require a declared valuation of the item to set the insurance cover for loss or damage. If an item is undervalued, the insurance will mimic that fact. Not great for the seller if the item goes missing as you will likely claim for non delivery. Sellers will rarely provide false valuations on expensive kit as they are then taking all the risks, an untrue declaration, under insured and there is really no up side for them.

The Chinese seem to undervalue items on declarations but then many items are quite cheap. They are the exception and most commercial sellers will ignore requests to undervalue items.

In the UK, anything valued over £15 attracts at least VAT and a £8 paperwork fee (often higher charges from couriers). In the UK Postage is always considered part of the purchase price and on a large or heavy item that can seriously inflate the VAT amount :( Duty charges are thankfully quite rare, or minor, in my experience.

Sadly, even second hand items attract VAT when importing into the UK, even for a private sale. Yet if you buy a used car off someone here..... no VAT..... go figure  :-//

It's the old story of one unavoidable constant in our lives lives ....... death and taxes  :(

Fraser
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Offline Eddy

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #213 on: September 05, 2017, 08:02:24 am »
Thank you Frenky and Fraser.

I'm afraid the extra costs are almost 33%...
So I think I go for the standard Q1.

I have an Android One Plus 3. It has an USB C connection. The software works on this phone.
Do you think it will work with an USB-C adapter?
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #214 on: September 05, 2017, 08:14:31 am »
I can try on my wifes Samsung S8 if T.E. Q1 works with adapter...
 

Offline Eddy

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #215 on: September 05, 2017, 08:42:41 am »
That would be very helpful  ;)
T.E. has an adapter with OTG (on the go) function. Whatever it is...
No idea if this is needed.

Luckely the US $ is rather low now. That will compensate some costs.
I hope they can send it before we will have to buy a Geiger counter  :(
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #216 on: September 06, 2017, 08:03:20 am »
Well I connected T.E. Q1 to S8 trough Micro USB to Type-C converter.

It did not work. Phone does not see any new devices attached and app did not start. I tried manually running TE app but it did not find the module.

This converter was supplied with the phone and probably does not have OTG capability.

You should just contact i3system to see if they support phones with Type-C USB.
 

Offline Eddy

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #217 on: September 06, 2017, 08:15:12 am »
Thanks a lot for testing.
I have ordered the Q1 and the TE USB-C adapter.
They say it works with it.

I also got this link from TE:
https://www.amazon.com/YCS-Basics-Reversible-Extender-Adapter/dp/B01DOBSS2S/
That should work  :)
 

Offline frenky

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #218 on: September 06, 2017, 08:19:40 am »
Cool it's nice to hear that.
I'll be switching to a new phone soon so It's good to hear that I'll be able to use my TE Q1 with it...  :-+
 

Offline Bruno28

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #219 on: September 08, 2017, 04:36:59 am »
Anyone have the current pricing for a Q1?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

Offline Eddy

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #220 on: September 08, 2017, 06:15:27 am »
499$
 

Offline todd_fuller

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #221 on: September 08, 2017, 07:24:58 pm »
$500 from who? I couldn't even get the US distributor to e-mail me back! Anyone else successfully get some love form a US distributor?
 

Online Fraser

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #222 on: September 08, 2017, 08:05:31 pm »
I understand the US distributor has placed a huge mark-up on these cameras.

The $499 price is direct from Korea and does not include shipping or importation customs fees.
I don't think you are able to buy direct as you have a local dealer now. For a change it is cheaper to buy something in Europe as we can still order direct.

Sorry it isn't better news. Your US dealer sounds an expensive and less than ideal source for this camera. IIRC they were charging North of $1000 for the camera.

Fraser
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Offline Nash

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #223 on: January 19, 2018, 11:47:56 pm »
Hi,

I am new here. After reading all what you wrote I decided to buy a TE-Q1 Plus.  I am waiting to receive it next week. If you have any software related to this camera I appreciate if you help me to get it.
Thanks
 

Offline Spirit532

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Re: Another smartphone thermal imager from i3
« Reply #224 on: January 20, 2018, 04:38:53 am »
If you have any software

Thermal Expert provide their own software for free, both PC and Android(ask them), and JoeC's software(see pinned thread in this subforum) supports readout via a USB connection to the PC.
 


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