EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: encryptededdy on June 28, 2015, 03:48:15 am
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Recently came across this - surprised nobody found it earlier.
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/)
"Thermal Expert" by a Korean thermal imaging company "i3" (not to be confused with L3, who also make thermal imaging gear).
Details are vague but this is what we know;
- Release Q3 this year
- 384 x 288
- Android only at launch
- -20 to 100 degrees Celsius
Images supplied by i3 on their website appear to be very good quality - on par with Therm-app? Curiously the GUI has 2 video buttons.
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/g_11.jpg)
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/g_03.jpg)
Obviously the big question is price - I can't find any mention of price except here: http://www.tempsensornews.com/thermal_imaging/prototype-low-cost-smartphone-thermal-imager/ (http://www.tempsensornews.com/thermal_imaging/prototype-low-cost-smartphone-thermal-imager/)
Which states "Numbers like $500 per unit with more than 3 times the 32 K pixels of the ~$250 Seek Thermal and were heard resonating on the Expo floor."
Also here: http://electronics-eetimes.com/images/01-edit-photos-uploads/2015/2015-06-june/2015-06-19-eete-jh-yole2.jpg (http://electronics-eetimes.com/images/01-edit-photos-uploads/2015/2015-06-june/2015-06-19-eete-jh-yole2.jpg)
Which states "<$500 USD" but also a 2016 release date which is not in line with the "Q3 2015" figure on their webite.
EDIT: They have a video on their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVk5HgiHWAU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVk5HgiHWAU)
It looks like the framerate isn't the best, and the lens has some sharpness issues at the edges, but still, it will certainly be the best option available at it's price point (assuming the $500 figure is true)
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It looks like the framerate isn't the best, and the lens has some sharpness issues at the edges, but still, it will certainly be the best option available at it's price point (assuming the $500 figure is true)
Frame rate looks awesome from that video.
Thanks for sharing. :-+
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Also not to be confused with the FLIR i3 (what's with these name collisions?)
A 100 maximum temperature is rather low.
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Sheeeeit
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I suspect the dual video options are: radiometric and standard (AVI or something)
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Also not to be confused with the FLIR i3 (what's with these name collisions?)
A 100 maximum temperature is rather low.
Anyone planning to overclock their FLIR i7? :P
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It looks like the framerate isn't the best[...]
Frame rate looks awesome from that video.
I don't know what to make of the video. It looks like a framerate much higher than 10FPS, but stuttering several times a second. It makes me wonder if it's "simulated output".
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I think it's just a case of some image processing algorithm running that's not fully optimised yet. Mabye the NUC algorithm that runs every few seconds?
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Has a pretty wide FOV with the fisheye lens. Most other thermal imagery I've seen and cameras have narrow FOV tele lenses for focusing on details.
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Would be interesting to record some drinking a hot drink and seeing their neck and throat light up.
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When I saw their latest video I thought "OMG did they really capture a video of a woman giving birth?"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIMSxad7VfS5kcdw3kjdZDQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIMSxad7VfS5kcdw3kjdZDQ)
(Spoiler: they didn't ;D)
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Their website has a few new sample photos, including one of a PCB.
(http://i.imgur.com/b1kYmFw.jpg)
Looks pretty good apart from a very strong "fisheye" effect from the lens.
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Looking over the web page, they may be looking to sell as OEM at $500. Might not make it to retail at that price. Hopefully some of us "manufacturers" can purchase an evaluation copy at the OEM price.
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I've been in contact with someone at i3 Systems, here are some details;
- Launching 2nd Week of September
- Interchangeable lenses (I assume this means manual focus too)
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While watching a YT video on this, YT showed a video on this one for $250, which is closer to my price range, but maybe too low resolution to be of any use in electronics? There are a lot of sample images but no circuit boards.
Anyone used this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Seek-UW-AAA-Thermal-Imaging-Connector/dp/B00NYWAHHM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438392290&sr=8-1&keywords=Seek+Thermal+Camera (http://www.amazon.com/Seek-UW-AAA-Thermal-Imaging-Connector/dp/B00NYWAHHM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438392290&sr=8-1&keywords=Seek+Thermal+Camera)
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While watching a YT video on this, YT showed a video on this one for $250, which is closer to my price range, but maybe too low resolution to be of any use in electronics? There are a lot of sample images but no circuit boards.
Anyone used this one?
http://www.amazon.com/Seek-UW-AAA-Thermal-Imaging-Connector/dp/B00NYWAHHM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438392290&sr=8-1&keywords=Seek+Thermal+Camera (http://www.amazon.com/Seek-UW-AAA-Thermal-Imaging-Connector/dp/B00NYWAHHM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438392290&sr=8-1&keywords=Seek+Thermal+Camera)
There's a extremely long thread here about the seek: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/)
But the consensus is generally;
- High 200x150 resolution, but is noisy and has bad temperature sensitivity when compared to Therm-App / FLIR One
- Lens does not focus that close, however there are macro lenses that can be attached (you can buy these off eBay afaik)
- Seek XR version has manual focus lens that focuses closer than the normal seek, but not as close as Seek w/macro lens
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Came across some images. Looks like they changed the design.
Also I confirmed with them that the lenses have manual focus & are interchangeable.
(http://i.imgur.com/6ca72ro.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IldDPSp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/f87ZImX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/m7iaSlR.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Aq2vQQQ.jpg)
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Video showing this new model:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfFbUvVEr84 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfFbUvVEr84)
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(http://i.imgur.com/xluxTWd.png)
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Copied from "New Flir products" thread, because it fits here better :
I will rather wait for i3-ThemalExpert with 384 x 288 resolution and sell my SeekThemal to soften a hit to my wallet. ;D
btw I contacted i3system and the price (still undecided) will be a fair bit higher than the $500 USD I quoted in the other thread.
That is too bad.
But since the Therm-App (with the same resolution) is 939$, i3-themalexpert could probably go for 700$-800$ and still sell well (if the quality will be on par with Therm-App).
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Full brochure now available on their website: http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/download/360/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/download/360/)
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New sample photos too: http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/category/webzine (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/category/webzine)
I guess we're getting closer to release date...
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I've been told international availability in October.
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looks like it'll be killer, especially with swappable lenses. Hopefully the phone software is up to par.
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Looks like it's available for purchase in Korea now. Some more media;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozcnJgpx8rs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozcnJgpx8rs)
(http://puu.sh/kvG7m/3e6c914de4.jpg)
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A few days ago I asked them about release date. This is the answer:
Hi. Thermal expert will be launched on October 2015 in Korea first and after a little bit later. it will be available in other country in middle of October 2015
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Hopefully the app either supports raw image saving or they have a SDK available with access to the raw data :-+
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All that is missing now is the price.
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(http://i.imgur.com/mpEpTBT.jpg)
Holy shit... is that a Windows tablet? Could it be? Native windows support out of the box?
That certainly beats the Seek / FLIR One / Therm-App in terms of platform support!
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Holy shit... is that a Windows tablet? Could it be? Native windows support out of the box?
I really hope it does support Windows, however there are quite a few dual-boot tablets available (Android/Windows).
At the very least this does imply that it has support for x86 processors. This means it should work on atom based phones like the ZenPhone 2.
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I've been told international availability in October.
Do you have any new info about release date?
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New image shared by the thermal expert twitter account. https://instagram.com/p/9P8dk_PtkR/
Good to see they haven't gone completely quiet.
Update:
Video has been added. Looks like they still have some performance issues to iron out: https://instagram.com/p/9Qe8V5vtjY/
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I have contacted this company which will be reselling it: http://www.alfin.co.kr/#!thermal-expert/ci67 (http://www.alfin.co.kr/#!thermal-expert/ci67)
They said that i3system is currently preparing mass production and that sales will begin in november.
They still don't have a final price...
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I have contacted this company which will be reselling it: http://www.alfin.co.kr/#!thermal-expert/ci67 (http://www.alfin.co.kr/#!thermal-expert/ci67)
They said that i3system is currently preparing mass production and that sales will begin in november.
They still don't have a final price...
Thanks for the info :)
If they price this thing right and have windows support at launch, I can see this being a very successful product.
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Why are they stretching the image??
The thermal sensor is 4:3, keep the image on the screen 4:3. Don't stretch it to widescreen.
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They should have options in the settings (perhaps they do):
Fit image:
- fit to height (black bars on the sides)
- fit to width (cropped on top and bottom)
- fit to width and height (stretched) //I'm not sure why anybody would wan't to have this option because it distorts images
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Interesting titbit I just got back from i3:
We will provide Android SDK and Windows DLL for third-party developers.
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That is great news! :-+
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They have put online some images with ThermalExpert runing on Microsoft Surface Pro3 (Windows 10):
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/613?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/613?cat=10)
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/7736-1024x576.jpg)
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/7737-1024x576.jpg)
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That looks like a lot of settings to configure... I like that :)
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New images of 6.8mm wide lens vs 13mm narrow lens: http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/634?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/634?cat=10)
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I think too many people looked. I get redirected to an "OverTraffic" URL with Korean text.
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Jep. Their hosting seems to be very unreliable.
I have a extension in chrome that monitors changes on their site and the site goes down at least once a week. (I get notification on every content change).
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The site is back up. There is also another set of images showing the various palettes: http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/666?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/666?cat=10)
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(http://puu.sh/ls0iC/340a197fa3.jpg)
Posted on their Facebook page
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I wish they would stop making phone thermal image addons.
I want a self contained flir E4 equiv that doesn't cost $999
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According to google translate the text that goes with that image says:
Registered in the Google Play Store complete!
Better features expected future updates!
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Some new images:
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/757?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/757?cat=10)
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/770?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/770?cat=10)
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/11.png)
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Anyone heard anything new regarding the camera?
Just though I'd ask here before I fire yet another inquiry off to them.
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I haven't heard from them since november when they said that international release date will be in december...
They were suppose to release it in Q3, but I guess that will be Q3 in 2016. ;D
Edit:
And the only change on the website in the last 3 weeks is this page with android app user manual which you can't download...
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/android-app (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/android-app)
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I haven't heard from them since november when they said that international release date will be in december...
They were suppose to release it in Q3, but I guess that will be Q3 in 2016. ;D
Edit:
And the only change on the website in the last 3 weeks is this page with android app user manual which you can't download...
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/android-app (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/android-app)
That link now works, links to the ThermalExpert.apk app.
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Some screenshots I took from inside the app.
http://imgur.com/a/Yg3mO (http://imgur.com/a/Yg3mO)
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There is a bunch of new changes on their site:
They have split product to "Basic" and "Pro" model. The only difference seems to be the housing color and temp range.
Pro is red and has -10*C ~ 250*C range, while Basic is gray and has a range of -10*C ~ 150*C.
Pro:
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/T.E-Pro-Wide-lens1-300x225.png)
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-pro (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-pro)
Basic:
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/T.E-Basic-Wide-lens1-300x225.png)
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-basic (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-basic)
Wide and narrow lens:
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/853?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/853?cat=10)
Some extra equipment:
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-accessories (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-accessories)
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/871?cat=10 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/blog/archives/871?cat=10)
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/T.E-Accessories-300x225.png)
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:-DD Less than 24h after I complete my order they announce a "new" device. Then again, I would have still gone for the basic model. Although I must say I really like the red trim.
For anyone wondering, I paid $880 ($820 + $60 shipping).
It should arrive on Friday, but I'm away till Sunday. So you can expect a mini review Sunday evening (GMT).
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Great! I'm looking forward to your review. :-+
They also posted this official notification:
The release of Thermal Expert
We have started to sell the product on Nov. 2015 in Korea, and Dec. 2015 internationally.
If you have any inquiries against our product, please ask us through the below e-mail.
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/qa?uid=14&mod=document (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/qa?uid=14&mod=document)
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And please take some thermal images that are similar to the ones here:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/therm-app-users/pool/ (https://www.flickr.com/groups/therm-app-users/pool/)
This will let us compare ThermalExpert and Therm-App. (Not totally valid comparison but still better than nothing...)
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New sections on the i3 site have appeared:
Lens options:
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-lens (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product/thermal-expert-lens)
Analysis Software Tool
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/analysis-software-tool (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/analysis-software-tool)
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@schlafli:
Did you get the i3 module? If yes, what is the first impression? :popcorn:
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@schlafli:
Did you get the i3 module? If yes, what is the first impression? :popcorn:
Yup, got it about 2 hours ago :). The performance is great!
Unfortunately I'm working from home and won't have time for a proper play/review for another few hours.
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Okay, quick review time!
I've had a bit of a play with the camera and overall I'm very pleased.
The camera itself is tiny. It's much smaller than a Flir One G2. Here it is compared to a 2 pence and 2 euro coin:
(http://i.imgur.com/Wr0hlVO.jpg)
The close-up capabilities of this camera are great:
(http://i.imgur.com/acaE2Rc.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WK1tFtr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/q0YrrQi.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/UXP7QkL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/A4mBPaK.jpg)
The camera will focus down to about 7cm but at that point depth of field becomes a big issue (as you can see in the final image above).
For anyone wanting a camera for close-up PCB work, this thing is great. I took a bunch of pictures of an old internet modem (BT homehub 5). For reference, here is a picture of the pcb and the various sections I took pictures of:
(http://i.imgur.com/hKhytJI.jpg)
Section 1:
(http://i.imgur.com/dm5yZCy.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/02wn3hI.jpg)
Section 2:
(http://i.imgur.com/QkTrBny.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4LnWsGp.jpg)
Section 3 - I'm not sure what package this IC is but it's an Atheros QCA9880 measuring 11x11mm with ~112 pins giving a 0.4mm pitch:
(http://i.imgur.com/DU0BG5m.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BuztWA6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/tY1ACvC.jpg)
Section 4 - Note the RJ45 connectors:
(http://i.imgur.com/6hkEDhX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zNMnGVz.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Z6zQNAs.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/VGmfuxI.jpg)
For anyone worried about the temperature range, it happily measured the wick of this candle at 303C (577f):
(http://i.imgur.com/viDcGDE.jpg)
It's also pretty good at showing the studs in the drywall:
(http://i.imgur.com/CBvEH0e.jpg)
Just like the Therm-app, this camera does not need a shutter for NUC, it comes calibrated from the factory with the NU information. However my unit seems to have 1 pixel miss calibrated. Luckily the app has the functionality to take a new flat-field image to use for NUC. (The app tells you to put on the lens cap or point the camera at a uniform surface).
Here is an example of an image before and after manual NUC. (Note the single pixel bright spot in the middle that disappears in the second image):
(http://i.imgur.com/tPo8vBw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/QcVXm54.jpg)
Finally, here is an image of my radiator with a few of the different colour palettes:
(http://i.imgur.com/QcVXm54.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IrFpgl4.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dsvWOjb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/kzRIgb4.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fjXlwPh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4sKbk9m.jpg)
Bonus sink hot water swirl:
(http://i.imgur.com/St6xfgg.jpg)
Here is the album with a few more images in it: https://imgur.com/a/hOQO3 (https://imgur.com/a/hOQO3)
As an aside, how can I stop the images taking up so much space in the thread? fixed
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Wow! The amount of details on the images is just creazy.
Tnx for the quick review.
Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
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That's really nice, what is the approximate frame rate? does it stutter, not that it's that important since the stills are really clear and that's really its main usage.
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Looks to be on-par with the Therm-App, except at a lower price :-+
Although, I see it's giving a reading of 303 C when it's specified max temp is 150C. This could be like the Therm-App - it'll display higher temperatures but the further you go from the calibrated maximum (150C), it begins to get wildly inaccurate. It would be much better if they displayed like a ~ symbol or something that lets you know it's out of the calibrated range.
The sensor in the ThermalExpert is supposed to be <50mK NETD, which should technically be better than the <70mK of the PICO384P used in the Therm-App.
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Balls. How do I get one?
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I believe that currently the only way to get one is to order it directly from i3system in Korea:
We have started to sell the product on Nov. 2015 in Korea, and Dec. 2015 internationally.
If you have any inquiries against our product, please ask us through the below e-mail.
E-mail: thermal_expert@i3system.com
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/qa?uid=14&mod=document (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/qa?uid=14&mod=document)
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Thanks for the mini review. This pushed me towards a purchase. I had already been in contact with them and they sent me a basic layout of accessories and an additional lens. I went ahead and pulled the trigger and told them to send me a quote. Did they ask you to do a direct bank transfer? Mine will have to travel all the way to the US, so i might not get it as fast as you did.
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That's really nice, what is the approximate frame rate? does it stutter
It seems to be quite smooth. Unfortunately I think this may be limited by my phone which starts thermal-throttling after a few minutes. As soon as I start recording video, the frame rate drops to 1-2 per second. The phone I have is a Yotaphone 2 with a Snapdragon 800. I'll see if I can record some video from a different phone soon.
Balls. How do I get one?
As Frenky mentioned, you can order directly from them. Just email them and they respond quickly (the timezone difference is the only issue).
Did they ask you to do a direct bank transfer? Mine will have to travel all the way to the US, so i might not get it as fast as you did.
Yes, I did a direct transfer. For anyone in the UK I can really recommend http://www.ukforex.co.uk/. (http://www.ukforex.co.uk/.) I opened an account Monday morning at 7am, went through all the verification and the money was in the recipient account at 4pm uk time. Plus the fees were minimal (mid-market rate was £605 and I paid £614).
DHL picked up the camera on Friday and I had it Monday, so technically next business day! They also made paying the import duties very easy; I got an email from DHL Friday with a link to pay online (this was before the item even landed in the UK).
Although, I see it's giving a reading of 303 C when it's specified max temp is 150C. This could be like the Therm-App - it'll display higher temperatures but the further you go from the calibrated maximum (150C), it begins to get wildly inaccurate. It would be much better if they displayed like a ~ symbol or something that lets you know it's out of the calibrated range.
That's a good point. At least it doesn't simply cap the temperature at 150 like the Flir One G2. It does show that the camera is clearly capable of measuring relative temperature differences above the 150C spec. One interesting thing is that it does limit the lower temperature. It simply ends up saying "< -30". However as you can see in the following image, it can clearly detect quite a bit below that.
(http://i.imgur.com/EALLcIf.jpg)
In keeping with the EEVBlog motto, here are some teardown pictures!
(http://i.imgur.com/kLnVWOZ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Z9DipbJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/eKP1G8i.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/G6c21Jt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/obCqVT9.jpg)
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Ooooo are those exposed test pads I see??
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I'm attempting to do the USForex version of what you used, am I correct to assume they are receiving the money in Korean WOT?
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I'm attempting to do the USForex version of what you used, am I correct to assume they are receiving the money in Korean WOT?
No, the receiving account is a USD account. Make sure you transfer the money as USD otherwise there may be some conversion fees on the other end. (That is assuming you got the invoice in USD)
Ooooo are those exposed test pads I see??
Unfortunately I don't have a logic analyzer but I can always have a poke with the oscilloscope and hope one of the pins is serial port. It may be the weekend before I have time to do that though.
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an impressive sensor/chip size and must be harder to temperature stabilize (FFC, uniform image) in this small case as a Lepton chip
I see many insulating material ;-)
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/product)
Array format : 384 x 288
Pixel Pitch : 17 um
NETD : < 50mK
Wavelength band : 8~ 14 um
Lepton 3 with 160x120 pixel:
http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_5191be73d1c943d78d2e1a095cb7f3b8.pdf (http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_5191be73d1c943d78d2e1a095cb7f3b8.pdf)
Dimensions: 10.5 x 11.7 x 6.4 mm
Spectral range Longwave infrared, 8 um to 14 um
Array format 160 × 120, progressive scan
Pixel size 12 um
Thermal sensitivity <50 mK
Lepton 1 with 80x60 pixel
Dimensions: 8.5 x 11.7 x 5.6 mm
Spectral range Longwave infrared, 8 um to 14 um
Array format 80 × 60, progressive scan
Pixel size 17 um
Thermal sensitivity <50 mK (0.050° C)
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Two screws to open and a beefy metal case - looks like it's built to reasonably solid! The window over the die looks massive compared to a Lepton. Thanks for the pics! :-+
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Large, decent lens combined with nice large microbolometer. Very nice.
BUT having seen the internal construction it was surprising to see the PCB embedded in that putty material and some rough looking thermal pads either side of the lens. These are likely to be for thermal conduction to the case in order to aid thermal stability. Not sure how I feel about the putty material and rough cut thermal pads though.
Lovely high quality images. Overall I am very impressed with the images shown here.
If I had the spare money I would buy one, but I cannot justify such a purchase now.
Thanks for the pictures and for opening the camera.
Fraser
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It is to have at some point in Germany ?
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How secure is the USB connection? Does it fall out or wobble at all?
The Opgal one seems like it has the edge there with the snap-on aluminum bracket.
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How secure is the USB connection? Does it fall out or wobble at all?
The Opgal one seems like it has the edge there with the snap-on aluminum bracket.
It's sits flush with my phone when plugged in and is quite sturdy. With a case on the phone it might be a bit difficult.
When I bought the camera i3 system threw in the accessory kit for free, so I did get the nice snap-on bracket too. The bracket uses a standard tripod mount and comes with a mini-tripod and monopod. It's a bi-stable bracket that uses magnets to hold it in either position. I think they could have made it much more useful if it was a friction hinge that let you angle it any position.
(http://i.imgur.com/JNrVear.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FvAQHpA.jpg)
Another thing I've been meaning to mention: The thermal expert comes with a 6.8mm f1.3 lens while the therm-app TH/optional lens is f1.4.
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Mini rant time. :rant:
I've been trying for the past few weeks to get access to the SDK without any luck. I3 seem to have changed their tune recently and are not offering the SDK or Windows drivers unless you get a special "development edition" thermal expert. An SDK and Windows support were one of the main reasons I bought the Thermal-expert over the Therm-app.
It's quite annoying since that means I can't actually get any raw data from the camera. The Android app does have the functionality to export thermal data but that simply gives a normalized unsigned 8-bit image with a temperature lookup table.
Another reason I was looking forwards to windows support is because the performance on my phone can be a bit sketchy and the battery life is pretty poor. (this is of course my phones fault)
I'm going to keep pestering them and hopefully they'll see the light, especially since all their competitors (Seek, Flir, Opgal) do provide an SDK. If not, I'll have at least learned a lesson about being explicit about clarifying features before I buy something...
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Sorry to hear this. Ensure that you tell them of your membership and postings on this forum. (Provide the URL to this thread). Advise them that you intended to use to SDK to show this community the benefits of their camera over others and its excellent adaptability. I would hope that a manufacturer of a new product would want their unit discussed in a positive light on forums such as this. Deciding to not provide the SDK to early adopters is a recipe for negative views of the OEM and the product. A tad silly me thinks.
Keep trying. Offer to sign an NDA etc, they may change their mind.
Hope you get a good result.
Fraser
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Sorry to hear this. Ensure that you tell them of your membership and postings on this forum. (Provide the URL to this thread). Advise them that you intended to use to SDK to show this community the benefits of their camera over others and its excellent adaptability. I would hope that a manufacturer of a new product would want their unit discussed in a positive light on forums such as this. Deciding to not provide the SDK to early adopters is a recipe for negative views of the OEM and the product. A tad silly me thinks.
Keep trying. Offer to sign an NDA etc, they may change their mind.
Hope you get a good result.
Fraser
Thanks for the tips :-+
I've already sent them an email today pointing out the competitors' SDK. If they don't budge I'll try the things you mentioned.
-Michael
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Good news! Looks like I may be getting access to a version of the SDK after all.
It may be a while yet but once I get it, expect loads of raw images :)
I don't know if this is just me being naive, but I assume there would be a lot of people interested in getting one of these cameras if i3 system took an approach similar to Flir with their F1G2. I.e., push the development platform aspect of the device and release an SDK for Linux/Windows/Android. Thoughts?
Update: I should be getting the Windows version of the SDK at the start of next week. I'll need to dig through tomas123's posts on creating Flir tools compatible images :)
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How do you purchase this camera? I contacted them online and recieved not asnwer.
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How do you purchase this camera? I contacted them online and recieved not asnwer.
I initially tried the form on the website a few months ago but got no response, so I'd avoid that. I then contacted them at the email address show here: http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/contact (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/contact)
They're pretty good at responding to email quickly (usually within a day).
The general procedure was something like this:
- Tell them you're interested and want the prices/brochure
- Once you know what you want, send them an email asking for a proforma invoice for the items. Make sure to include name, phone number and shipping information.
- Once you get the invoice and are happy with it: print it, sign it, scan it and email it to them
- Transfer the money in the currency specified on the invoice. In my case it was USD.
- Wait 1 week
- Play with your new toy
This is important so I'll mention it again: When you transfer the money, make sure that they receive the amount specified in the currency specified. I used ukforex and was very happy with the cost/speed. I ended up paying £10 over the mid-market rate and i3 had the money in their account less than 10h after I opened a new account on UKForex.
For comparison, my bank had an estimate of 2 weeks for the transfer :-DD
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3 updates to the Thermal-Expert.
- They now take PayPal, so you can pay with a credit card and it's no longer a pain in the ass to deal with the international bank transfers
- Linux SDK is available as well
- There is a "Thermal-Expert Pro" which is calibrated up to 250C instead of the normal Thermal-Expert's 150C
Oh, and this is the big one - there's a new Thermal-Expert V1 (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/thermal-expert-v1/) (standing for VGA-1, the current Thermal-Expert has been renamed to the Q1, for QVGA-1)
It uses a 640x480 17um sensor and has a 30Hz option! Price is currently unknown, I've emailed them for more information.
If this is <$3000 I'm pretty sure it's going to be the cheapest 640x480 thermal camera out there by a huuuuggeee margin, especially if we consider someone like FLIR's cheapest 640x480 camera, the T620, costs $20,000+ (yes this has way less features but fundamentally the sensor won't be too different)
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Nice...
640x480 with 19mm f/1.0 lens would be really awesome. :-+
This should really shake the TI market. I just hope Flir does not buy them out...
p.s.
Your link does not work, so here is the correct one: http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/thermal-expert-v1/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/thermal-expert-v1/)
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I believe Flir Vue 640 is the cheapest (3000$) VGA thermal module.
http://1uas.com/FLIR-VUE-640-Slow-Version?search=flir%20vue&sort=p.price&order=ASC (http://1uas.com/FLIR-VUE-640-Slow-Version?search=flir%20vue&sort=p.price&order=ASC)
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Ah yes, that was it. I remember mentioning it in some other thread. I think the problem with the Vue is that it's analog video out only. The Vue Pro solves this, however it doesn't offer any sort of radiometric data / temperature measurement.
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Also not to be confused with the FLIR i3 (what's with these name collisions?)
A 100 maximum temperature is rather low.
Radiometric (temperature measurement via LWIR detection) capability probably maxes out at 100degC (212degF), just like with the FLIR One. However its ability to see LWIR radiation probably goes well above that. While a radiometric app that displays temperature probably will artificially limit the range by indicating that it maxed out at 100degC, a 3rd party app that can access the raw pixel data from the sensor probably would be able to detect LWIR radiation from much hotter sources, even if it couldn't accurately assign a temperature to it, as the per-camera calibration values needed to calculate this are probably proprietary, and the only app that will have access to these values will be the official one, which will NOT allow direct access to the raw data by the end user, just like with the FLIR One SDK sample app. However, once temperature is above about 1000degF, then sensor's output may overload the ADC (analog to digital converter) causing it to wrap around back to digital output of 0, as I found it does on the FLIR One when accessing the raw 14bitsperpixel data through the FLIR One SDK sample app (which causes some of the hottest objects, like the heating element on a stove to actually appear colder than room temperature, and there is a sudden change from white to black on the image where this transition occurs).
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So this is called an i3 thermal imager? Is there any relationship between this device and the FLIR i3, i5, and i7 devices? Did FLIR have any hand in making this device?
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Also why does this have a price twice that of the Seek, even though it has the same resolution of 384x288?
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i3 ThermalExpert is made by Korean company i3system. It has no connections with Flir i3 thermal camera.
It also does not have the same reasolution as Seek which has 206x156 themal sensor.
It's closest competitor is Therm-App which has the same resolution but is a bit more expensive.
http://therm-app.com/product/therm-app-device-with-19mm-lens/ (http://therm-app.com/product/therm-app-device-with-19mm-lens/)
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Ben321 wrote:
Radiometric (temperature measurement via LWIR detection) capability probably maxes out at 100degC (212degF), just like with the FLIR One. However its ability to see LWIR radiation probably goes well above that.
Hotter things simply give off more LWIR, not some different sort of LWIR. See Wikipedia on Planck curves and Black Bodies. The problem is sensor saturation.
While a radiometric app that displays temperature probably will artificially limit the range by indicating that it maxed out at 100degC, a 3rd party app that can access the raw pixel data from the sensor probably would be able to detect LWIR radiation from much hotter sources, even if it couldn't accurately assign a temperature to it, as the per-camera calibration values needed to calculate this are probably proprietary, and the only app that will have access to these values will be the official one, which will NOT allow direct access to the raw data by the end user, just like with the FLIR One SDK sample app.
Unlikely. To get a good noise free image the scene dynamic range will be quite limited. A large dynamic range setting would push the NeTD/MDTD up to 500mK or more. There is nothing proprietary about the calibration, just whether the manufacturer can be bothered plotting the curve all the way. Thermal sensors are linear in energy, so it is just maths to convert that scale to temperature.
However, once temperature is above about 1000degF, then sensor's output may overload the ADC (analog to digital converter) causing it to wrap around back to digital output of 0, as I found it does on the FLIR One when accessing the raw 14bitsperpixel data through the FLIR One SDK sample app
Well before that I expect, more like 150°C as I suggest above. Higher temperature ranges need special low gain modes in the sensor to avoid saturation. These may have their own factory calibrations or might be simply mathematical relations (like 1/8th gain and sort out offsets with a shutter calibration).
What you saw on the FLIR is either a palette that is black = overload or else simply bad coding. It is not the the ADC, an ADC will sit at 16383 when overloaded but when the gain/offset corrections are applied to 16383 that may wrap back if the code is not written with very hot things in mind. Some of the FLIR Twitter images of the K2 fire camera at the FDIC show the black-very hot artefact too, with a flame measured at >120°C.
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Ben321 wrote:
Radiometric (temperature measurement via LWIR detection) capability probably maxes out at 100degC (212degF), just like with the FLIR One. However its ability to see LWIR radiation probably goes well above that.
Hotter things simply give off more LWIR, not some different sort of LWIR. See Wikipedia on Planck curves and Black Bodies. The problem is sensor saturation.
While a radiometric app that displays temperature probably will artificially limit the range by indicating that it maxed out at 100degC, a 3rd party app that can access the raw pixel data from the sensor probably would be able to detect LWIR radiation from much hotter sources, even if it couldn't accurately assign a temperature to it, as the per-camera calibration values needed to calculate this are probably proprietary, and the only app that will have access to these values will be the official one, which will NOT allow direct access to the raw data by the end user, just like with the FLIR One SDK sample app.
Unlikely. To get a good noise free image the scene dynamic range will be quite limited. A large dynamic range setting would push the NeTD/MDTD up to 500mK or more. There is nothing proprietary about the calibration, just whether the manufacturer can be bothered plotting the curve all the way. Thermal sensors are linear in energy, so it is just maths to convert that scale to temperature.
However, once temperature is above about 1000degF, then sensor's output may overload the ADC (analog to digital converter) causing it to wrap around back to digital output of 0, as I found it does on the FLIR One when accessing the raw 14bitsperpixel data through the FLIR One SDK sample app
Well before that I expect, more like 150°C as I suggest above. Higher temperature ranges need special low gain modes in the sensor to avoid saturation. These may have their own factory calibrations or might be simply mathematical relations (like 1/8th gain and sort out offsets with a shutter calibration).
What you saw on the FLIR is either a palette that is black = overload or else simply bad coding. It is not the the ADC, an ADC will sit at 16383 when overloaded but when the gain/offset corrections are applied to 16383 that may wrap back if the code is not written with very hot things in mind. Some of the FLIR Twitter images of the K2 fire camera at the FDIC show the black-very hot artefact too, with a flame measured at >120°C.
I'm pretty sure there are no corrections applied to the RAW image. In the FLIR One SDK sample app, the 14bit raw image is the raw linear image that represents the detected radiant energy, not the conversion to temperature values. Yet this raw image has the same problem I just described.
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Got a response from i3system - the 640x480 unit will be approx $3500 (not final) and the 30hz will be slightly more.
19mm f/1.0 lens is included.
This is slightly less than the price of a FLIR Vue Pro, however the thermal expert v1 is radiometric / measures temperatures.
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Got a response from i3system - the 640x480 unit will be approx $3500 (not final) and the 30hz will be slightly more.
19mm f/1.0 lens is included.
This is slightly less than the price of a FLIR Vue Pro, however the thermal expert v1 is radiometric / measures temperatures.
$3500?! I thought the first post in this thread said that this smart phone only $500 (for a 320x240 version). Doubling the horizontal and vertical resolution (4x the number of pixels = 4x the price) only gets you up to $2000. There's no reason that this should cost more, unless of course this company had some shady "under the table" deal with FLIR to not compete with FLIR, and so i3systems had to make their price high enough that buying from FLIR would look like a bargain compared to buying from i3systems, and FLIR promised to pay i3systems a massive amount of kickbacks. In other words, price fixing.
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You really should start reading posts that you quote...
In the first post you have resolution 384 x 288 not 320x240. 500$ price was just a rumour.
On the third page you have an actual price: $880 ($820 + $60 shipping)
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Ben 321 wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are no corrections applied to the RAW image. In the FLIR One SDK sample app, the 14bit raw image is the raw linear image that represents the detected radiant energy, not the conversion to temperature values. Yet this raw image has the same problem I just described.
There are another set of corrections to get from 'digitised sensor video' to the 'linear in energy' image that you are describing as 'RAW', that is before you get to the simple curve to get to temperature. I suspect maths overflow in these calculations for correcting the pixel gains and offsets that could cause FLIR's black hole, probably due to going over 32 bits.
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
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Ben 321 wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are no corrections applied to the RAW image. In the FLIR One SDK sample app, the 14bit raw image is the raw linear image that represents the detected radiant energy, not the conversion to temperature values. Yet this raw image has the same problem I just described.
There are another set of corrections to get from 'digitised sensor video' to the 'linear in energy' image that you are describing as 'RAW', that is before you get to the simple curve to get to temperature. I suspect maths overflow in these calculations for correcting the pixel gains and offsets that could cause FLIR's black hole, probably due to going over 32 bits.
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
So there's no way to get the true raw digitzed analog signal from the FLIR One's ADC into your smartphone?
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Some advice needed guys, with Themapp being on discount now a kit with two lenses between Thermapp and Thermal Expert are almost identicaly priced at about 1200 USD, so which one should I pick? Lookintg at teardowns the Thermapp looks better constructed, there is some difference in the tempreture ranges they are calibrated , dont know if there is much difference in sensetivity. The Thermapp app looks better, seem to be able to set a palate range in the app. Any thoughts would be welcome! Primary use will be for outdoors.
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Some advice needed guys, with Themapp being on discount now a kit with two lenses between Thermapp and Thermal Expert are almost identicaly priced at about 1200 USD, so which one should I pick? Lookintg at teardowns the Thermapp looks better constructed, there is some difference in the tempreture ranges they are calibrated , dont know if there is much difference in sensetivity. The Thermapp app looks better, seem to be able to set a palate range in the app. Any thoughts would be welcome! Primary use will be for outdoors.
I assume you're purchasing the 9Hz version. If so, the intense rolling shutter effect on the Therm-App 9Hz may be annoying for outdoor use - check the last videos I posted on the Therm-App thread for an idea of what I mean. From what I can tell the ThermalExpert reads out the full sensor every frame which eliminates the annoying rolling shutter.
If you're using this for outdoor use then I would still highly recommend the Therm-App 25Hz. The extra frame rate really makes a huge difference.
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Yeah, I have seen the rolling shutter on the Thermapp, was not sure if the Thermal Expert had the same. Unfortunately the 25Hz is not in my price range, so will probably go with the Thermal Expert. Thank you!
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The Thermal Expert also has a rolling shutter.
A little update on the camera: I've finally found a bit of free time to play around with the SDK I was sent by i3. The SDK is a bit clunky and simplistic. The only provided function to get data from the camera returns a normalised 16bit image. It's better than nothing, but I'd really like a way to get the direct raw data.
The SDK provides a method to calculate the temperature at a given x y coordinate. Combining this with the normalised image gives me a way to approximate the temperature of the entire image (find min/max points, calculating temp of those points and then adjust the range). However here we come to another quirk of the SDK; the calc temperature methods in the SDK do not operate on the same frame that was returned when reading the image. The function seems to operate on the following frame.
I did a bit of digging in the SDK and I think I've figured out how the camera and drivers work. The camera seems to be a bit of a dumb device. After being plugged in it simply returns data in the following order: calibration, dead pixels and then image data. The data is not returned in response to a request from the pc. The sdk effectively does the following:
- calibrationData = read( n_bytes )
- deadPixels = read( n_bytes )
- imageData = read( n_bytes )
I'm sure the camera can do something more clever, but the SDK I was given doesn't use that functionality. An annoying side-effect this "dumb device" mode is that the camera must be unplugged in between runs of the program. If the camera is not unplugged between runs, the SDK will interpret the image data being returned as calibration data and dead pixel data. When this happens all image frames returned by the SDK are be completely blank. (I assume because the SDK suddenly thinks that all the pixels are dead-pixels). This should be trivial to fix; the camera should be "reset" when the user calls the init function.
Complaints aside, it's pretty great once you have real time (ish) thermal image data in an openCV friendly form. You can really start doing fun things :)
The first thing I did was create a local-normalised image inspired by the ThermApp's "night vision" mode.
It works pretty well until there is too much dynamic range in a scene. There is no way to lock the gain of the sensor, so when there is something very hot (e.g., a match) in the scene, we start to see the limits of some part of the system (could be sensor, ADC, firmware, or SDK).
Normal Scene:
(http://i.imgur.com/1F3ZIAK.png)
With radiator visible:
(http://i.imgur.com/1oPHGbk.png)
With match in scene:
(http://i.imgur.com/9WFoFOH.png)
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The Thermal Expert also has a rolling shutter.
A little update on the camera: I've finally found a bit of free time to play around with the SDK I was sent by i3. The SDK is a bit clunky and simplistic. The only provided function to get data from the camera returns a normalised 16bit image. It's better than nothing, but I'd really like a way to get the direct raw data.
The SDK provides a method to calculate the temperature at a given x y coordinate. Combining this with the normalised image gives me a way to approximate the temperature of the entire image (find min/max points, calculating temp of those points and then adjust the range). However here we come to another quirk of the SDK; the calc temperature methods in the SDK do not operate on the same frame that was returned when reading the image. The function seems to operate on the following frame.
I did a bit of digging in the SDK and I think I've figured out how the camera and drivers work. The camera seems to be a bit of a dumb device. After being plugged in it simply returns data in the following order: calibration, dead pixels and then image data. The data is not returned in response to a request from the pc. The sdk effectively does the following:
- calibrationData = read( n_bytes )
- deadPixels = read( n_bytes )
- imageData = read( n_bytes )
I'm sure the camera can do something more clever, but the SDK I was given doesn't use that functionality. An annoying side-effect this "dumb device" mode is that the camera must be unplugged in between runs of the program. If the camera is not unplugged between runs, the SDK will interpret the image data being returned as calibration data and dead pixel data. When this happens all image frames returned by the SDK are be completely blank. (I assume because the SDK suddenly thinks that all the pixels are dead-pixels). This should be trivial to fix; the camera should be "reset" when the user calls the init function.
Complaints aside, it's pretty great once you have real time (ish) thermal image data in an openCV friendly form. You can really start doing fun things :)
The first thing I did was create a local-normalised image inspired by the ThermApp's "night vision" mode.
It works pretty well until there is too much dynamic range in a scene. There is no way to lock the gain of the sensor, so when there is something very hot (e.g., a match) in the scene, we start to see the limits of some part of the system (could be sensor, ADC, firmware, or SDK).
Normal Scene:
(http://i.imgur.com/1F3ZIAK.png)
With radiator visible:
(http://i.imgur.com/1oPHGbk.png)
With match in scene:
(http://i.imgur.com/9WFoFOH.png)
WOW, so you got the device and the SDK? How did you manage that? I didn't think they were even on sale yet. I thought it was just a prototype still.
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So there's no way to get the true raw digitzed analog signal from the FLIR One's ADC into your smartphone?
Why would you want to, it will look a bit like the attachment below (OK that is from a 320x240 ASi, but VOx will only be a bit better)
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
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Bill,
Thanks for the image. Very interesting. It shows how much work is needed to clean up the output of a microbolometer.
Are you able to advise why it has such a distinctive vertica striation pattern on it. I am just curious.
Fraser
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Fraser,
The general arrangement for a microbolometer sensor to generate the signal voltage is for the variable resistance of each pixel to be connected to a capacitor / integrating amplifier. for a defined period There is one amplifier per detector column and the integration is the time it takes to read out (digitise) each row of pixels, then the amplifier is zeroed and reused.
What you see as column nonuniformity is the variation in the capacitors in each column amplifier which is the dominant nonuniformity. In the image this is similar to the difference between 25° and 60°C, you can just make out a desk and ceiling lights once you know they are there.
There is a similar FLIR image (from a VOx) but it is not said whether this is the pure raw ADC image or the image after applying the factory calibrations and just awaiting a shutter correction. My guess is the latter but happy to be corrected.
(http://uk.mathworks.com/cmsimages/69860_wm_FLIR%20thumbnail.jpg)
from
http://uk.mathworks.com/company/newsroom/flir-speeds-thermal-imaging-fpga-development-through-automatic-hdl-generation-from-matlab.html (http://uk.mathworks.com/company/newsroom/flir-speeds-thermal-imaging-fpga-development-through-automatic-hdl-generation-from-matlab.html)
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
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So there's no way to get the true raw digitzed analog signal from the FLIR One's ADC into your smartphone?
Why would you want to, it will look a bit like the attachment below (OK that is from a 320x240 ASi, but VOx will only be a bit better)
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
Cool! Where did you find that picture from? Is that one you took using an ASi sensor based camera? Have you ever gotten the chance to get raw image data from a VOx sensor?
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I ordered mine, should be getting to me end of this week.
I was looking at some of the options on the app, and it seems there is an AGC option, is this not the option to deactivate the Automatic Gain Control? (aka lock it)
The Thermal Expert also has a rolling shutter.
It works pretty well until there is too much dynamic range in a scene. There is no way to lock the gain of the sensor, so when there is something very hot (e.g., a match) in the scene, we start to see the limits of some part of the system (could be sensor, ADC, firmware, or SDK).
-
Fraser,
The general arrangement for a microbolometer sensor to generate the signal voltage is for the variable resistance of each pixel to be connected to a capacitor / integrating amplifier. for a defined period There is one amplifier per detector column and the integration is the time it takes to read out (digitise) each row of pixels, then the amplifier is zeroed and reused.
What you see as column nonuniformity is the variation in the capacitors in each column amplifier which is the dominant nonuniformity. In the image this is similar to the difference between 25° and 60°C, you can just make out a desk and ceiling lights once you know they are there.
There is a similar FLIR image (from a VOx) but it is not said whether this is the pure raw ADC image or the image after applying the factory calibrations and just awaiting a shutter correction. My guess is the latter but happy to be corrected.
(http://uk.mathworks.com/cmsimages/69860_wm_FLIR%20thumbnail.jpg)
from
http://uk.mathworks.com/company/newsroom/flir-speeds-thermal-imaging-fpga-development-through-automatic-hdl-generation-from-matlab.html (http://uk.mathworks.com/company/newsroom/flir-speeds-thermal-imaging-fpga-development-through-automatic-hdl-generation-from-matlab.html)
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
Interesting noise picture and explanation. The FLIR One has similar noise, but it doesn't just consist of lines in one direction (like in your picture), it has lines in both horizontal and vertical directions. You don't usually see this, but if you take a picture of a surface with almost no difference in temperature across it, the AGC will bring out this noise, and it consists of both vertical and horizontal lines. Can you explain how this works? Keep in mind that I'm talking about the ThermalLinearFlux14BitImage raw image, not the fully processed and cropped image that also supposedly has artificial noise added (unless there's also artificial noise added to the ThermalLinearFlux14BitImage image).
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Ben
Do not forget that my image, and the upper FLIR image are deliberately uncorrected at least in part. The user is not meant to ever see those. In a way you have answered your own question, you have a blank scene and allowed the AGC to go flat out. It only stops once there is enough noise to fool it into thinking it has an image ! All thermal cameras are extracting very small image signals from large variable backgrounds so will show noise much more readily than a visual light camera, the comparison to an even thermal scene is a visual camera down a cellar at night.
Are the lines fixed in live video or not ?
Vertical fixed effects are likely to be the remains of what is noted above, column amplifier effects not fully removed by factory fixed calibration and/or the current flat field calibration. Digital rounding and temperature drifts can bring these out too. Again this is due to the columns being the dominant non-uniformity in the base sensor image so small errors in removing them are still greater than the camera noise and so show up in the output image.
Horizontal moving noise is likely to be low frequency electronic noise being sampled by the device scan rate.
Horizontal fixed noise lines can be the moving noise locked in by the last single point calibration with a camera that uses that method.
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
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Check the i3 website, they have listed a bunch of new devices, a couple aren't being shipped until July. One of them is the Thermal Expert V1, which is a 640x480 sensor...considering how cheap the lower resolution one is, imagine how affordable this one might be. Also, they take PayPal now. I already contacted them to get price details. I'm very likely going to order the V1 if it's at the right price.
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Check the i3 website, they have listed a bunch of new devices, a couple aren't being shipped until July. One of them is the Thermal Expert V1, which is a 640x480 sensor...considering how cheap the lower resolution one is, imagine how affordable this one might be. Also, they take PayPal now. I already contacted them to get price details. I'm very likely going to order the V1 if it's at the right price.
I have contacted them and posted about the price earlier;
Got a response from i3system - the 640x480 unit will be approx $3500 (not final) and the 30hz will be slightly more.
19mm f/1.0 lens is included.
This is slightly less than the price of a FLIR Vue Pro, however the thermal expert v1 is radiometric / measures temperatures.
-
Ben
Do not forget that my image, and the upper FLIR image are deliberately uncorrected at least in part. The user is not meant to ever see those. In a way you have answered your own question, you have a blank scene and allowed the AGC to go flat out. It only stops once there is enough noise to fool it into thinking it has an image ! All thermal cameras are extracting very small image signals from large variable backgrounds so will show noise much more readily than a visual light camera, the comparison to an even thermal scene is a visual camera down a cellar at night.
Are the lines fixed in live video or not ?
Vertical fixed effects are likely to be the remains of what is noted above, column amplifier effects not fully removed by factory fixed calibration and/or the current flat field calibration. Digital rounding and temperature drifts can bring these out too. Again this is due to the columns being the dominant non-uniformity in the base sensor image so small errors in removing them are still greater than the camera noise and so show up in the output image.
Horizontal moving noise is likely to be low frequency electronic noise being sampled by the device scan rate.
Horizontal fixed noise lines can be the moving noise locked in by the last single point calibration with a camera that uses that method.
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
Interestingly enough, the some of the noise lines in both directions appear to move with the image content, some appear random, and some appear fixed (but fade in or out after a period of time). At least this is how I remember it from last time I did that experiment. I was pretty sure that those claims people were making about fake noise being added to the image were talking about the final image (MSX image, or cropped IR image), not the raw 120x160 image. But I'm not so sure about that anymore, as the explanation you gave for how noise would occur naturally in the image doesn't quite account for how I remember the noise looking.
-
Interestingly enough, the some of the noise lines in both directions appear to move with the image content, some appear random, and some appear fixed (but fade in or out after a period of time). At least this is how I remember it from last time I did that experiment. I was pretty sure that those claims people were making about fake noise being added to the image were talking about the final image (MSX image, or cropped IR image), not the raw 120x160 image. But I'm not so sure about that anymore, as the explanation you gave for how noise would occur naturally in the image doesn't quite account for how I remember the noise looking.
I'm not sure how much noise reduction is applied to the ThermalLinearFlux14BitImage, but FLIR uses quite a lot of propriety noise reduction algorithms and so what you're seeing may just be a product of FLIR's imaging processing dealing with the very noisy input image that you would get by pointing the camera at a uniform temperature surface.
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Hey,
I'm quite new here and quite new to thermal imaging too.
We are MDs from France and we bought a pair of thermal expert cameras for medical applications (breast cancer diagnosis and such).
I was importing the CSV temperature file in Matlab but I'm not sure I understand how they designed it.
It seems that rows 1 to 285 store the raw temperature value and rows 288 to 575 integer values of maybe some colormap (?)
Interestingly, representing rows 1-285 with standard matlab colormap gives extremely crude and low resolution images, while rows 286 - 576 plot as a smooth, high-res thermal image with Matlab.
However, both are 285X388 matrixes.
So, I do not understand the difference between the two.
Do we have a way to process raw temperature data so that it looks as good as the second matrix?
What seems to be the trick here?
Any help would be very appreciated !
Nicolas
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Nicolas
Your countries regulations may differ to the UK but I advise caution when using 'budget' thermal imaging systems that have not been approved for medical use. Sure these cameras produce pretty pictures but if the camera misses some detail that later proves significant to a patients health, you could find yourself in trouble for using an unapproved diagnostic product ?
I only warn of this because there are situations where you need to buy industrial or medical grade thermal imaging cameras. Diagnosis of breast cancer may be one such case. You may wish to check with your legal team on this point.
If you are doing research into techniques prior to investing in a full blown, and expensive camera, you may be OK provided you work on non human subjects or advise human subjects of the research status of the work and so it may not be precise.
The i3 product may well be suitable for the tasks that you have in mind but you should discuss this with the manufacturer and see if they will stand by their products performance and image processing algorithms when it is used for medical diagnostics. I strongly suspect they will decline to recommend their product for medical use. Remember, it uses a mobile phone host.... A total unknown for the manufacturer and a host that is liable to error or virus related corruption. Not a stable platform for medical diagnostics when dealing with an illness as serious as Cancer where early detection is important.
All the best with your research.
Fraser
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Fraser, sheesh man. You jump to conclusions pretty quickly. I *do* agree with you, but it isn't really necessary to bring that up in such detail, not yet at least. Perhaps he's been approved to use it already?
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I disagree, if someone is starting down a path using a technology in which I have specialist knowledge I will forewarn them of any potential issues they may face. In case you are unaware, the use of electronic equipment in the medical field is one of the most challenging when it comes to approvals and insurance. Approvals can take years.
The poster stated he was an MD working in France and that he had basically bought two 'toy' thermal cameras to assist in the diagnosis of breast cancer amongst other things. That is more than enough to ring alarm bells for those who specialise in this field.
This forum is a good source of help and information, wherever possible we should provide good advice to those who may benefit from such. It is not jumping to conclusions, just due diligence at work.
Fraser
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Fraser, thanks for the concern.
More than cancer diagnosis, it will be used for early detection of radiation dermititis.
Still, it is quite obvious that the tested camera cannot be used as the gold standard of any trial before approval or validation. That should go without saying. Thermal imaging has never been recognized in France as a cancer diagnosis tool anyway (not even with medical field approved cameras).
But that certainly does not prevent us from using thermal_expert in research (wit the appropriate ethics comittee approval) to check accuracy and possible interest of its use.
In the same way you have expert knowledge about thermal imaging, I do have expert knowledge about medical research and the design of such studies.
Now, I still have that technical question that remains unanswered... anybody with an idea of how they coded their CSV file output?
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Nicolas,
Thanks for clarifying the situation. I meant no insult in my comments. I just care about people :) I should not have called the i3 camera a toy in my later comment, it is better than that. Sorry I cannot help you with your question. The OEM may be willing to assist in answering your question when they know the good work you are doing with their camera.
Good luck with your research
Fraser
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Nicolas,
I too would expect the OEM to assist you, although they might ask you not to publicise the answer. Otherwise I suggest taking a few test images with known temperature objects in them. That may give you a better idea. The integers are likely to be some kind of ‘RAW‘ file which is either linear in thermal radiance or in temperature. What values are the integers for ambient temperatures?
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
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any major difference between this one and the therm-app beside the price and IOS compatibility.
is hard for me to understand the spec.
thank you.
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New VGA videos:
https://youtu.be/IpTl97TNvso
https://youtu.be/WIGdOOOCmaQ
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that resolution tho... mmmm
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Yeah. The level of details is just creazy good.
-
Lots of new videos some 640x480 some 384x288:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIMSxad7VfS5kcdw3kjdZDQ/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIMSxad7VfS5kcdw3kjdZDQ/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwBC7cxXSn8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwBC7cxXSn8)
damn son that resolution
-
This one is cool to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0aSF0ciufw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0aSF0ciufw)
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I was very satisfied with the 384x288 resolution of my Therm-App.... now I'm not satisfied anymore.
-
Wanna sell it? :P I have a serious thermal camera withdrawal symptoms... (because my Seek died)
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+1 (my Seek got stolen :( )
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I'm willing to sell it but unfortunately I don't I can sell it at a good enough price since I paid ~200USD of Import fees to get it into the country which I would want to somewhat recoup :(
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No worries. If I cant fix the Seek I'll probably buy ThermalExpert. ;)
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640x480 version? :P
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Soo tempting... must resist... :scared:
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Hehe well the plan was to wait for the Seek to start selling pro model to see if that would force ThermalExpert to lower the price of basic model to once advertised 500$ range. ;)
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Hehe well the plan was to wait for the Seek to start selling pro model to see if that would force ThermalExpert to lower the price of basic model to once advertised 500$ range. ;)
I just got a price quote and the base TE-Q1 is $US499 now... (6.8mm lens)
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Thank you for sharing. That is really good news. :-+
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rip seek (again)
While we haven't seen the image quality from the CompactPro, I can't see it surpassing the ThermalExpert/Therm-App. This, in addition to the fact that the ThermalExpert is practically the same price as the CompactPro gives me no reason to recommend the CompactPro.
The CompactPro also lacks interchangeable lenses compared to the TE/TA.
Hopefully this also makes Opgal drop the pricing for the Therm-App.
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ThermalExpert has a new website with store and prices... http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/shop/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/shop/)
T.E. V1 (640x480) with 19mm f/1.0 lens is $2,990.00.
I decided to give my self a gift in the form of "T. E – Q1 Plus". It's 384 x 288 model with 13mm f/1.0 lens.
I think this will be a great new toy. ;)
-
And they've added comparisons between SeekThemal, Flir One, TE 384x288 and TE 640x480:
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/products/why-thermal-expert/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/products/why-thermal-expert/)
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Bleh, the Q1 plus is nice indeed, but rather expensive especially once their shipping rate is added, bit more than I'd want to pay... if only Seek had prices published on the CompactPro...
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Bleh, the Q1 plus is nice indeed, but rather expensive especially once their shipping rate is added, bit more than I'd want to pay... if only Seek had prices published on the CompactPro...
Seek CompactPro price is suppose to be 500$ in US and 600€ in EU.
For me in EU the decision is really easy.
Should I buy Seek with noisy tiny 320x240 sensor fo 600€ + approx 10€ shipping or T.E. Q1 with big ass sensor for 455€+60€ shipping.
So I decided to buy T.E. Q1 Plus with big f/1.0 lens which costs 544€ + 60€ shipping. Still less than Seek.
This image is in promo material for Seek CompactPro:
(https://i.imgur.com/xy1eRkM.png)
And this are images from T.E. Q1:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=243374;image) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=243372;image)
Seek CompactPro:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seekthermal-compact-pro/?action=dlattach;attach=235802;image)
T.E. Q1:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=243380;image)
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Seek CompactPro price is suppose to be 500$ in US and 600€ in EU.
For me in EU the decision is really easy.
Well yes if that's the price there certainly is no doubt. Given there's no officially released price I guess I'm still hoping it would come out for $350-400 or so which would suit me better since I don't really need the TE's quality and it would be hard to justify the extra $, I would be happy with something just a little better than the original Seek which the new Compact Pro should be.
If the $500 price was confirmed I'd place an order for the TE right away.
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The price 500$ is listed on Seek site:
PRICING AND AVAILABILITY
The Seek CompactPRO sells for an MSRP of $499.00 USD and will be available through authorized distribution channels in all North American and EMEA markets.
http://www.thermal.com/press-releases/2016/6/20/compactpro
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Ah yep, the morons could have put that straight on the product page stub instead of the "subscribe for updates"... oh well, seems I'll have no choice but to whip the card out for the TE... >:D
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At this point, I would certainly hope nobody goes for the Seek over the TE Q1. The Q1 blows the Seek completely out if the water in terms of accuracy, resolution, and ease of use. Considering they are selling at the same price, it's a no brainer here. Seek put out yet another subpar product and they didn't time it right. Now they are going to get shut out of the market.
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Q1 Plus ordered :)
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It is clear that the thermal imaging market is evolving very quickly.
It should be remembered that SEEK Thermal wanted to provide a thermal camera for the common man. To do so, they used the innovative approach of a new microbolomter that contained 12um pixels. That is right on the edge of viability in terms of single pixel wavelength response. It is true you can go smaller but that discussion is for another day.
SEEK used a truly tiny microbolometer and a vey small Chalcogenide Glass thermal lens to illuminate it. The poor thing was immediately operating at a disadvantage when compared to cameras that used a larger microbolometer and lens. That was before the image processing capabilities of SEEK Thermal are considered.
The recent arrival of affordable thermal imaging cameras from ThermApp and Thermal Expert proved that excellent image quality was available in a compact format using a smartphone host. The ThermApp and Thermal Expert both use quite large microbolometers and lenses. They are well ahead of the SEEK cameras and FLIR ONE G2 before any image processing capabilities are considered.
It is no surprise that the SEEK offerings are now looking poor value for money in terms of image quality. The consumer grade thermal cameras have raced down to the SEEK Thermal segment of the market and, quite frankly, flattened it into the ground. Sure the classic model is still very cheap, but that has to compete with the FLIR ONE G2. The SEEK Pro camera is too little too late. They are still messing with a severely compromised microbolometer and lens system. Sadly I see other consumer grade thermal cameras gradually pushing SEEK Thermal into the background. I hoped they would do well, but the thermal camera market is a very challenging place and there will always be casualties. FLIR are unlikely to want to buy them out, as they have other competing manufacturers in the past. SEEK no longer pose a significant commercial threat and have no technological edge that FLIR desires.
Just my view and others will have theirs. I still thank SEEK Thermal for effectively chucking a metaphorical hand grenade into the thermal camera marketplace though. Sadly history has shown that such brave companies often have initial success until others take an interest and out compete them in the newly developed marketplace.
Fraser
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$499 is pretty crazy for this camera. It cost me about double that half a year ago! I guess it pays to be patient :)
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TI market for consumers really evolved fast.
In the beginning of 2014 Therm-App came out with $4000 price.
And now in the middle of 2016 you can get the same quality for $500 (T.E. Q1). :-+
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Q1 Plus ordered :)
Now that was quick! Just got my Q1+ with both lenses. Cringing a bit thinking I should actually have gone for the Q1 Pro, because at this point the difference was I believe not that much anymore anyway - interestingly it is not possible to order from the site nor see the price anymore so I couldn't confirm.
The hardware is beautiful, awesome CNC alu consctuction, including the lens caps. The supplied cases holds the camera plus the additional lens. It's easy to understand the difference vs things like the Seek - the sensor is enormous in comparison, as is the the 13mm F1.0 lens for the same FOV. Just the ability to adjust focus puts it in another league (it's however also much more of a necessity due to the large sensor and wide aperture lens, so keep in mind that focusing often takes a bit of time). Initial impressions seem really great, the wide angle lens is useful for indoor and overviews, and obviously requires less focusing effort. Obviously it has quite some barrel distorsion.
The android app however leaves a lot to be desired... All settings get reset to defaults every time the camera is disconnected/reconnected, and for whatever stupid reason both the preview and saved images are stretched to the phone's screen 16/9 size and saved as 1280x720, stretching everything (or squishing when holding the phone in portrait orientation) and hiding useful image data under the controls. Both the preview and saved images should maintain the sensor's native aspect ratio.
There are a few other bugs, e.g. when disabling AGC the hot and cold palette ends get locked to where they were in AGC mode as they should but the image colors shift. The temperature offset also needs a lot of attention, as mentioned earlier all settings get reset to defaults when reconnecting the camera, the temp offset however still shows in the app - but not in effect. You have to edit the value once for it to be considered again.
App version is 14.0.0 from the Play Store.
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Nice. :-+
I have just ordered T.E. Q1 Plus so now the wait begins... ;D
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My TE-Q1 Pro turned up yesterday and I excitedly plugged it into my phone - HTC Desire 530 - only to find it didn't work. I tried it on my wife's Sony Xperia Z5 compact - also didn't work. I tried some of the older handsets at home - no luck.
I tried it at work today on a colleagues Nexus 6 and... it worked! Phew.
Has anyone worked out how to connect it to a Windows PC? At the moment that might be the easiest thing for me (since we want it to take thermal photos of equipment on the workbench). I can't work out where to source a USB A male to micro USB female cable - all the ones I can find are around the other way.
-
Regarding cables, I bought this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B009AWA3VK/ref=mp_s_a_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1470120841&sr=8-11&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=Usb+a+male+micro+female (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B009AWA3VK/ref=mp_s_a_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1470120841&sr=8-11&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=Usb+a+male+micro+female) and this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B012S0ZQNU/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B012S0ZQNU/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
That second cable actually has all 5 connectors of the micro USB ports hooked up, so you can use it to extend the camera on the phone too.
Regarding the software, you'll have to contact i3. I was sent a Google drive link to download the software for Windows.
-Michael
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Interesting. I tried on my 2 main phones and it was fine, but I now dug up some older ones I found and neither work. One is a Galaxy S3 Mini and for that one it's pretty normal since it doesn't support USB Host at all. My S4 however should work, it recognises the camera and opens the app but that then says "camera not detected" and closes.
Note I have a custom ROM and kernel on that one so it might play a role.
For computer connection I've ordered a few of these for the plug: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370788940297 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/370788940297)
and I'll cut/splice with A-type ends as required.
I don't know of any software to make use of it though, but given I'm in contact with I3 regarding the app issues I'll see if I can have the SDK.
EDIT: S4 works after a reboot.
EDIT2: Have received Windows software, but it crashes on load (W10 64bit). Don't know if it's becasue no camera is connected, although I tried sharing it from my Android phone through VirtualHere USB, the drivers installed correctly and the app also crashed straight away on launch.
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So as mentioned I couldn't get the Windows app to run on my main W10/64bit machine, and it didn't work on an XP VM I tried to install for the purpose either. Also I still don't have a cable to connect the Q1+ to my PC. I however remembered I had a couple of cheap Windows tablets in a drawer that have micro-USB-OTG ports that could be used to connect the camera as is, so I tried installing the app on those (W10, 32bit). And there it worked, AND I can connect the camera (although the wrong way around, i.e. in "selfie" mode) :)
Then following an idea from here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/question-about-flir-one-for-android/msg995835/#msg995835) about a program (https://www.virtualhere.com/usb_client_software) that allows for remotely connecting an USB device through a network, I decided to try to link it with my very appropriate C.H.I.P (https://getchip.com/pages/chip) minicomputer I received 2 days ago - it's also got an USB OTG port, integrated WiFi and can be battery powered, making for a great standalone wireless thermal provider :)
I initially was thinking about a Pi Model A as I've got 2 of them in a box, until I remembered why they were in a box - No battery, no OTG, no Wi-Fi. Yeah right... time for those things to be trashed I guess, not worth the hassle. The C.H.I.P is how things should be nowadays.
And everything works perfectly fine. Unlike what's been reported about the FLIR cam in that other thread there's no timing issue at all, one can see a certain delay when connecting the camera and kinda slower refresh rate, but functinally it does the job great :)
The bigger tablet is a Lenovo Miix3 8'' that is pretty decent with a good quality 1024x768 screen and 2GB RAM, the widescreen one is an ultracheap ($50?) Trekstor one that was bought maybe a year ago. It's really pretty crappy - yet it works, and it's impressive how cheap you can have a PC these days.
-
That is really cool. :-+
I've got to try that with RPI2 when I get my ThermalExpert...
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Thanks for the cable pointers - I searched eBay for "USB A Male to Micro USB Female Adapter" and found some which claim Australian stock. Hopefully I'll have it early next week.
-
The easyest wayt o make a cable is:
- take an usb cable of an old mouse (or chop micro usb connector off regular phone charging cable)
- buy this http://goo.gl/ZYgfr0 (http://goo.gl/ZYgfr0)
- solder usb wires to it and bridge ID to GND
Done...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=245270;image)
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So the happy day is here even if it was a bit expensive... :P 599$ T.E. Plus + 65$ shipping + 196$ VAT and import taxes = 860$.
So here is unboxing of i3 ThermalExpert Plus with 13mm F/1.0 lens...
(https://i.imgur.com/tJvpkSQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GVnfBPk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NvPSl63.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UVh6Adh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7RDzkQ2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1C2XmTI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jc543Vz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pLirYlV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GWuiD9t.jpg)
The thing is really tiny but surprisingly heavy.
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First comparison with what I had before (Seek) to see the difference... :-DMM
VDSL modem:
(https://i.imgur.com/QmEHh3d.jpg)
SeekThermal 1gen:
(https://i.imgur.com/I0P4GBh.jpg)
TE Plus:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/thermal-imaging-gallery/?action=dlattach;attach=248256;image)
I believe I will quickly get spoiled... ;D
Some more photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/BXhfARr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jYxYd1F.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ssZ9eGV.jpg)
I noticed that you really have to use focus ring all the time to get the best sharpnes (doh...).
And the second is that images on the phone look A LOT sharper than what gets saved. App really needs an ability to save in the 384x288 lossless format.
-
They have put Windows software online today: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36fN1Q-Tg1AQnU0VTNWbWZsU2M (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36fN1Q-Tg1AQnU0VTNWbWZsU2M)
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/analysis-tool/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/support/analysis-tool/)
-
I got the Windows app working last night - it's a bit ragged around the edges but does enough for me at the moment.
After you install it you need to go to the install folder and look in the 3 sub folders:
- install the USB driver
- 2 x Microsoft runtime libraries
It initially complained about missing MFC140.DLL - I had to install the x86 runtimes from "vs2015 redistributable" to get it to work (I already had the x64 ones installed)
-
I have it working on some machines, but my 2 main ones won't. Can't find why, it runs fine on 2 W10 32bit tablets, doesn't run on 2 Win10 64bit machines, but does on a third.
-
It works fine on all my machines 32bit and 64bit win7.
You can try if this app works for you:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pg6iwz2vg7j3imy/Test%20Program.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/pg6iwz2vg7j3imy/Test%20Program.zip?dl=0)
Yeasterday I managed to successfully run SDK demo project. Sadly it's a C++ MFC app with which I'm not familiar.
I tried porting it to C# but VS is rejecting to add T.E. dlls as reference...
-
This does run on my desktop where the TE app doesn't.
I'll need to ask them for the SDK as well and report the incompatibility, not done yet.
-
T.E-V1 is very overpriced at $3000. I'd rather buy FLIR scout lll 640 for $3400 which is 30Hz and features a 640x512 sensor. In addition, it's a very rugged self-contained handheld unit. I'd never pay $3000 for a gadget that is supposed to be affordable alternative to FLIR and with unknown future compatiblity. If FLIR can offer a complete unit at this price, shouldn't we expect T.E-V1 be much much cheaper, say around $1000?
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T.E-V1 is very overpriced at $3000.
Compared to Flir Scout III it really isn't overpriced...
Because:
- It's cheaper
- has exchangeable lenses while with Scout you are stuck very narrow field of view (18°×14°)
- can be connected to computer
- also has 30fps
The only plus for Flir is that it's more rugged because it's main market are hunters.
I to would love to see it at 1000$ but that is really not realistic at this time. Perhaps in a year or two...
-
Because:
- It's cheaper
- has exchangeable lenses while with Scout you are stuck very narrow field of view (18°×14°)
- can be connected to computer
- also has 30fps
The Thermal Expert is also fully radiometric as you can read out a temperature value from any pixel. The FLIR Scout does not allow fore any temperature measurement at all.
-
Because:
- It's cheaper
- has exchangeable lenses while with Scout you are stuck very narrow field of view (18°×14°)
- can be connected to computer
- also has 30fps
The Thermal Expert is also fully radiometric as you can read out a temperature value from any pixel. The FLIR Scout does not allow fore any temperature measurement at all.
That sucks, nevertheless I still think the T.E-V1 price is too high IMO.T.E- Q1 in other hand is the best camera for the price so far. Let see what the pixel war will bring us in the future as the technology and market for thermal cameras are developing fast.
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Sorry for my poor english that isn't my nature language.
I got my Q1 and Q1+ at this weekend,
but I find a problem that is some of dots in my screen from my App,
and I teardown both of my camera, all have some dust on sensor flat.
is it only i have got this issue?
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That looks iike dead pixels rather than dust contamination. Such can happen if a thermal camera is dropped. Dead pixels are captured during factory NUC so this likely happened in transit to you. The VOx pixels are sensitive to high levels of G force associated with drop impacts or high levels of vibration.
I recommend you contact i3 and return the camera for replacement.
Fraser
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Sorry for my poor english that isn't my nature language.
I got my Q1 and Q1+ at this weekend,
but I find a problem that is some of dots in my screen from my App,
and I teardown both of my camera, all have some dust on sensor flat.
is it only i have got this issue?
Probably this is dust, dots are at different places on both pics. Have you tried to clean it (blow compressed air).
That looks iike dead pixels rather than dust contamination. Such can happen if a thermal camera is dropped. Dead pixels are captured during factory NUC so this likely happened in transit to you. The VOx pixels are sensitive to high levels of G force associated with drop impacts or high levels of vibration.
I recommend you contact i3 and return the camera for replacement.
Fraser
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Thanks for your reply, I think Fraser is right,
cause I can't blow the stain down,
even I took tissue paper gently wipe it,
but nothing be changed.
So I tried to contact the seller a few hours ago,
and he doesn't respond so far,
I prefer to refund them if they are passive processing.
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Perhaps check if the app offers some kind of dead pixel removal function? The Therm-App app offers this function and will fill in dead pixels with data from the surrounding pixels.
This isn't really a huge deal as 4 or 5 dead pixels out of 76800 pixels doesn't really affect the image quality.
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Dead pixels, there is a procedure to redo a dead pixel calibration, drop a short mail to i3 and they will send it to you.
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Yes you can recreate the dead pixel map to capture the new dead pixels, but if I had just received a new camera I would not like to see lots of dead pixels. a new camera should not have dead pixels visible. It does not bode well for the cameras future. If it has suffered transit damage, as opposed to microbolometer manufacturing pixel failures, there could be more issues that will continue to appear in the future. it all depends on whether you want to take the risk.
Frase
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BTW what is this black bar? Seems like some kind of data corruption and not like dead pixels at all. Also abnormal amount of noise under that bar. Also seems like dark and bright spots are moving.
Have you tried it with different host device?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=252912;image)
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As of the dirt on the sensor, you could easily introduce it during the disassembly. As I had repaired mobile phones in the past, at the times when display and glass wasn't glued together, I know how often this happens. I can say almost always. And after that, skill and multiple attempts are needed to assemble everything back without a single piece of dust introduced. Or DSLRs, all you need to get the dirt on the image sensor, is to remove the lens for a brief moment.
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Dead pixel calibration: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1591rrcfn27lr2/Thermal%20Expert_User%20Dead%20Update_Eng.pdf?dl=0
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Thank for you guys answer,
maybe just I haven't update the last firmware,
or just my smartphone's problem of compatibility, etc. (I hope...)
Next time, I will run on the Windows program and not the Android's app.
After I buy the cable, I'll test them again.
P.S.
I append the black hot mode photos, the dots is more obvious.
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@ Frenky,
Hmmmm, that is a subsidiary Dead Pixel map stored on the host and not in the camera itself. The app then uses the file to deal with the dead pixels in that file. Yes it works but it is not as good as Dead Pixel processing on the camera itself IMHO. Then again I am not that familiar with how the dead pixel map is used in these phone cameras. Maybe the APP just reads a dead pixel map file out of the camera and uses that unless a new map is present in the APP itself ?
I personally would not be happy to receive a thermal camera that has 'new' dead pixels displayed upon receipt. You can get the odd dead pixel appear over a VERY long period of use. At least that is my experience. Having lots of new ones on a new camera suggests trouble. As Wrapper states, there appears to be a dead band in the image as well. Whilst this could be the host or application causing such a band it would be rare to see dead pixels caused by such.
Fraser
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Dead pixel calibration: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1591rrcfn27lr2/Thermal%20Expert_User%20Dead%20Update_Eng.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1591rrcfn27lr2/Thermal%20Expert_User%20Dead%20Update_Eng.pdf?dl=0)
Wowoo, thanks frenky then God, he exactly solve my problem,
This problem is I didn't calibrate dead pixel from the app.
At here, sorry for let you guys confused.
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:D :D :D
But the dead pixel is actually exist.
On the sensor plane, the stain is still there...
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Have you seen the title of the i3 document ?
It made me chuckle ;D
It is written to address Dead users !
Fraser :)
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Have you seen the title of the i3 document ?
It made me chuckle ;D
It is written to address Dead users !
Fraser :)
No, I didn't see that before, could you post it?
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It is the document you already read to do the dead pixel recapture :)
Fraser
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I had a "dead bar" once, solved by closing the app/unplugging cam and replugging.
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Dust on the sensor window will appear out of focus as low response circular areas. Dust that falls off can also appear as increased response areas.
It is possible that some of these consumer cameras will have intermittent dead pixels as they are probably only calibrated automatically and do not have human intervention.
With the bolometer structure you will get 'slow' and 'flashing' pixels as well as simple 'dead' ones and some may get past an automated routine.
Bill
www.fire-tics.co.uk (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk)
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I just ordered the Q1 plus, but I was wondering which cheap android phones works with the camera. Because I have a windows phone.
Don't what the requirements are for the Q1.
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Did someone do a (n unintentional) droptest with a q1?
I was thinking of getting a thermal camera. Being able to just put it in my backpack and carry it around or mount it on the car sounds appealing to me.
I am unsure though if the camera can take the corresponding punches without damage.
Seek thermal compacts seem to be fragile in that direction or maybe there are just more of them around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkpM3agmV4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkpM3agmV4)
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS-dS54Khu0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS-dS54Khu0) at around 29:30
greetings
robert
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Did someone do a (n unintentional) droptest with a q1?
I was thinking of getting a thermal camera. Being able to just put it in my backpack and carry it around or mount it on the car sounds appealing to me.
I am unsure though if the camera can take the corresponding punches without damage.
Scratch the car thing, protecting the camera from damage by stonechips might cost even more than the camera itself :P
Regarding the protection from Drops and regular outdoor use: I think the q1 is small enough so that some extra cushioning on the edges wouldn´t make it too bulky.
But another thing: Can the android app for the q1 trigger a tasker event? e.g. tell tasker to alert me (maybe even send me a thermal image/video feed) if something hotter than x°C or something that is in a specified temperature range comes into a perimeter?
thx
robert
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I am considering buying a 'Thermal Expert Q1 Plus' with its F1.0 13mm lens.
What I cannot establish from the i3 website is the minimum computing power needed in an Android phone. I use Motorola Moto G1 and G2 phones with my F1G2. If I have to buy more phones with greater computing power, I may just pass on owning a TE Q1.
Does anyone have any experience of running the TE Q1 on anything less powerful than the Samsung 5 onwards ? I know the frame rate may be restricted by less powerful phones but is it still usable ?
Thanks in advance
Fraser
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I only have LG G3 and Samsung Note 3. With both it works great.
Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
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Runs fine on my old Galaxy S4, a bit less smooth than on a latest gen device but still very usable.
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Thanks chaps.
I just was not sure whether the Camera software and camera would even run on slower phones. On their web site i3 do warn that the latest generations of phone are most suited to their product.
I am still 'on the fence' regarding buying a TE camera as I already have too many. It is a very interesting product though. If I do buy one, it will be the Q1-Plus as the 6.3mm lens F number and very obvious barrel distortion steer me away from the standard Q1.
It is interesting to note that in 1997 the following countries had viable microbolometer manufacturing capabilities.....
USA
Canada
France
UK
Australia
Japan
South Korea.
So back in 1997 the S.Koreans were working on developing decent microbolometer technology. The Thermal Expert appears to be proof that their development program has been ongoing and a success.
Why am I considering the TE-Q1 ?
Well this camera has been hard to find fault with. It is compact, reliable and it produces some of the most pleasant looking thermal images that I have seen on the EEVBlog. Sure a very expensive high end thermal camera may produce the same, or better images, but this camera retails at a pretty impressive $500 (Q1).
I cannot help thinking that those clever people at i3 worked very hard to produce software algorithms that get the very best imagery out of that nice large microbolometer and decent lens. FLIR could, no doubt, do the same but their lower end products are restricted by the will and controls of the marketing department.
I was surprised that the TE-Q1 does not contain an FFC Flag and, if I an honest, that does concern me a little. An FFC flag has been an essential element in many (most) microbolometer based cameras for many years. I do know that TECless and FFC Flagless designs have been around for a while, but the old fashioned part of me expects such absence to cause image issues. The TE-Q1 seems to cope well without a FFC Flag though.
Fraser
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Hehe :)
You're making a good choice to go with the 13mm lens, I have both and the image quality is significantly better with the 13mm. The 6.5mm vignettes quite a bit, is less sharp and gives a more noisy image (lower aperture I guess), distorsion comes standard with wider angle lenses, no surprise there. I still find it useful to have a wide lens for some things.
Their algorithms are good indeed, it's interesting to see that with thermovision_joeC (tried the first time this morning, hadn't noticed support had been added - had to build a USB cable again, couldn't find the one I'd already made anymore :( ) the image is "jumpy" - for some reason it seems the whole image jumps by a °C or 2 back and forth between frames giving a flashy unstable image. Either it's a bug or I3 have much better algorithms since neither their phone app nor windows app do that, they're stable as a rock.
You'll typically do an FFC with the supplied lens cap on after power up (and ideally waiting a minute or 2 for thermal stabilization like with other imagers, but not really important if you're not looking for temp readings), then you can basically forget about it at least for minutes. Even without the FFC the image is cleaner than say the Keysight, see below. On both shots the Keysight has just done an FFC, on one the Q1 has had no FFC since power up, on the other the FFC has just been done.
As you can see without an FFC the Q1 is already better - and that's at a significantly narrower span too! What you lose is some temp range, but IMO that's for the better since its thermal resolution seems that much higher thanks to it, and I guess you have enough other choices for high temps ;)
Little video to finish:
https://youtu.be/cUkKr1DuhUg
Oh, and a little stitched thermal panorama ;)
Sorry in advance for your wallet ;)
P.S. I'd love to see what a V1 puts out...
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whether the Camera software and camera would even run on slower phones
I have a MotoG 2nd gen (with the dual sims) and it's underpowered. Gets about 4fps, where the i7 PC runs at full pelt. I sometimes have problems, typically with the hot spot indicator not locating over the actual hotspot, which I put down to a buggy app perhaps not allowing for the aspect ratio of my device, but it sorted itself out eventually.
My newer, faster phone I can try because, stunningly, it doesn't do OTG. But in summary of your question, I think a slow phone will be OK albeit perhaps a little more buggy than a fast one.
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@dunkemhigh,
Many thanks.
Fraser
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I have to say the ordering process for the Thermal Expert camera is, IMHO, a mess. I emailed the company for prices. I got them by return.... excellent.
I hit the buy button and it provides a multiple choice item selection and quotation form. No 'add to basket' or checkout process visible.
I completed the quotation form and have heard nothing more since.
I have now emailed the company again asking how Zi go about placing an order with them.
It is fortunate that I am patient. Such poor ordering system in a world where we have become used to slick 'add to cart' and simple 'checkout' is not a good image for a high tech company.
What buying experiences with i3 have others had ? How did you actually place your order ? I am currently assuming I add up the price of the parts, add postage and then send a payment via PayPal along with a note of what I am ordering and my address. Very 'old school' if that is the case.
I am considering adding the USB to PC lead and the tripod bracket but will await details of the cost first.
Fraser
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I had a special requirement so emailed them and they gave me a price list. The process then is to send them the money and email to say what you've sent it for, although doing it like that might just be peculiar to my situation. There were a number of back-and-forth emails over 2 or 3 days - bearing in mind the time zone differences, I was actually kind of impressed that I could email and get a replay and then a reply to my reply all in a day.
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I had a standard online shop process with direct Paypal payment. For some unknown reason they removed that a couple of months later and switched to the old school quote process all major test equipment vendors seem to tend to insist on.
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I suspect the reason for no prices listed or direct simple purchase is the introduction of regional distributors, The distributors will have sole selling rights in their region and will likely set the retail prices. I3 would not wish to list their direct sales prices or accept orders from regions served by a distributor.
Just my theory, no confirmed reason for the change.
Fraser
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I have been looking at the many Thermal Expert videos on you tube produced by Alex. I was surprised at how obvious the rolling shutter was in the videos when moving the camera. This is the only time I have seen this in a thermal camera and I think I know why.
Most modern thermal cameras that are frame rate restricted to <9fps actually read the microbolometer at full frame rate to avoid the rolling shutter effect. The frame store outputs the complete images at the required lower frame rate.
The Dual use Technology regulation compliant Thermal Expert (and Therm App) cameras appear to read the microbolometer at the <9fps rate so the rolling shutter is very obvious when panning. It makes a mess of verticals in the scene. The slow read out of the microbolometer effectively reduces the data rate that the camera dongle processor has to handle.
The slow read out of the microbolometer is a pity as it does spoil some of the videos. Still images present no issues. I understand that the Therm App is available in 25fps version for the USA. They are likely just increasing the master clock to the ROIC on the microbolometer and all video processing is reconfigured for the faster frame rate output to the host.
Opinions are invited from TE-Q1 owners on the apparently slow rolling shutter issue. Is it even an issue ?
Fraser
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Thinking about it, the slow read out rate of the microbolometer may explain the nice low noise images that the TE-Q1 produces.
Pro's and Cons of the design I suppose
Fraser
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I just remembered that I have a camera in my collection that is an extreme example of a camera providing better noise reduction in images due to a slow frame rate...... in this case, a VERY slow frame rate of 0.6fps !
I own a nice example of the Inframetrcs ThermaSnap. It is a sort of Thermal 'Stills' Camera !
The camera uses a Honeywell linear vertical thermal sensor array of IIRC 128 pixels. It is uncooled and i do not know the pixel response time characteristics.
The pixel sensor array is mounted on a sled that is traversed across the lens FOV over a period of around 1.5 Seconds.... yes 1.5 Seconds ! In that time the pixels have plenty of time to respond to the thermal scene and some very low noise images can be produced.
This is just a crude example of how a lower frame rate provides more 'signal' to the system to work with, but only if the slow frame rate is achieved at the ROIC on the microbolometer array and not in the video processing stages that follow. The down side is increased lag in the image update causing 'jaggies' in the image. I am wondering if hand shake produces small jaggies on verticals and so some loss of definition in the image ?
A very close look at an image produced with the camera hand held might reveal such issues.
What I am now considering is whether i can live with such a low frame rate 'at ROIC' 'characteristic' in a thermal camera. Hmmmmmm :-//
Fraser
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The pixel sensor array is mounted on a sled that is traversed across the lens FOV over a period of around 1.5 Seconds.... yes 1.5 Seconds ! In that time the pixels have plenty of time to respond to the thermal scene
Umm not so much... if I assume it's 128x128 then the row of pixels only spends 1.5/128 = 11.7ms at each location. A camera running at 9fps exposes all its pixels 111ms or about 10x longer :)
What I am now considering is whether i can live with such a low frame rate 'at ROIC' 'characteristic' in a thermal camera. Hmmmmmm :-//
What are your actual requirements? Those of us who have one could test stuff, but I must say your ramblings aren't really clear on what you're looking for. Seems video might be more of interest than stills?
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Ramblings... OK understood. I will not bother commenting on the design further.
A minor clarification, I was comparing the 1.5 second ThermaSnap scan to that of a conventional 60fps or 120fps Readout rate of a microbolometer, as commonly found in most thermal cameras. The ThermaSnap is also 128 pixel Parallel readout and not serial like modern microbolometer s. That is to say, it is more efficient in its collection of data. Your point is well noted however. The ThermaSnap was a poor example to use. Nuf said.
I am a collector and user of the technology. I repair them for fun and like to better understand each camera I own. I do not 'need' another thermal camera...... I am way over the 50 mark in my collection of high end cameras.
I have no intention of wasting £700 on a flawed design that ends up annoying me when in use. Running the ROIC at 9fps readout is normally an appalling idea, simple as that. They are normally run at 30,60 or 120 frames per second in my cameras.
Anyway, never mind. I have asked a thermal camera designer for his thoughts and will decide whether I want a Thermal Expert with its slow rolling shutter
and likely associated movement restrictions.
I would not wish to ramble on any more and annoy you so that is all from me in this thread.
Fraser
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My way to a Thermal Expert:
well... i bough the Thermal expert over Email. i ask for price and after confirming the price i pay over paypal with "send money". after round about 7 days i had my device. i confirm the checkout is not that comfortable and you have to trust the company... but it seems to be the only was at this time. ???
to the device itself.
i also guess before, a missing internal shutter is a bad thing, but now i know, the detector is so good that you need a NUC not really much.
the Drift of the detector while warmup is not much.
If i can bough a Seek Thermal Pro or a Thermal Expert... (NOT PRO!) i ever choose the Thermal Expert.
Additional... the TEQ1 was limited to 150°C...but only for the preview in the Phone App. The stored images and the PC access don't have this limit.
the Camera is a little bit special, the App is not perfect, the Analysis software too... but there a alternative ::)
see the attached image... my Camera (TEQ1... the silver one, not the red "Pro") delivers temperatures up to 300°C.
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I can just confirm basically all the data Joe-C posted.
I can additionally state that the temperature readings above the 'factory-limit' are quite well too. I had the chance to capture a couple of images and videos where a set of professional blackbody sources were present. The hottest of them was set 200°C which almost perfectly was displayed by the TE-Q1+ (~195...205°C across the quite large BB area using my own software w/ Zadig USB driver on a windows laptop).
The biggest drawback for me is still the 9Hz frame-rate and the slightly limited selection of optics (I would like to get hands on something ~50mm), but regarding image quality vs. price I am still absolutely pleased with that camera. The next best option for me would be some FLIR Boson Core - but that is slightly out of my hobby budget :'(
PS: By the way is anyone of the Germans interested in a raw Germanium lens 25mm diameter and 65mm focal length w/ 8-14micron AR coating - I am planning on ordering one from some chin. company. price offer is 48$ plus shipping/customs...) for 1 or 2 lenses getting cheaper from 10 or more....
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Hi,
I'm planning to buy a Q1.
But I'm afraid for the very high import taxes to Belgium.
Did all you buyers had to pay taxes, customs administration,... ?
Does TE provide an invoice in the parcel, or is there a price indication on the parcel? Do they make it lower, like most Chinese companies do? ;)
I think taxes are lower on camera's and lenses. I'm not sure if this has changed.
With carrier to they use?
Maybe a Seek bought here local is a more affortable option?
Thanks for your answers.
Eddy.
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Seek is more affordable for sure but it produces very noisy low detail images...
When I imported TE Q1 Plus from i3systems it was delivered by DHL.
At import I had to pay:
18€ Customs duty
137€ VAT (22%) (Stupid ass****s at customs office always add shipping expenses to the value of the goods, before they calculate 22% VAT)
19€ cost of import procedure
-----
174€
So I paid 600$ for Q1 Plus, 60$ for shipping and 174€ for import. Together approx 770€.
But I don't regret buying it because image quality is really exceptional.
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Sadly importation charges, duties and taxes are common for this sort of expensive equipment.
A courier is often used as it is safer. They require a declared valuation of the item to set the insurance cover for loss or damage. If an item is undervalued, the insurance will mimic that fact. Not great for the seller if the item goes missing as you will likely claim for non delivery. Sellers will rarely provide false valuations on expensive kit as they are then taking all the risks, an untrue declaration, under insured and there is really no up side for them.
The Chinese seem to undervalue items on declarations but then many items are quite cheap. They are the exception and most commercial sellers will ignore requests to undervalue items.
In the UK, anything valued over £15 attracts at least VAT and a £8 paperwork fee (often higher charges from couriers). In the UK Postage is always considered part of the purchase price and on a large or heavy item that can seriously inflate the VAT amount :( Duty charges are thankfully quite rare, or minor, in my experience.
Sadly, even second hand items attract VAT when importing into the UK, even for a private sale. Yet if you buy a used car off someone here..... no VAT..... go figure :-//
It's the old story of one unavoidable constant in our lives lives ....... death and taxes :(
Fraser
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Thank you Frenky and Fraser.
I'm afraid the extra costs are almost 33%...
So I think I go for the standard Q1.
I have an Android One Plus 3. It has an USB C connection. The software works on this phone.
Do you think it will work with an USB-C adapter?
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I can try on my wifes Samsung S8 if T.E. Q1 works with adapter...
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That would be very helpful ;)
T.E. has an adapter with OTG (on the go) function. Whatever it is...
No idea if this is needed.
Luckely the US $ is rather low now. That will compensate some costs.
I hope they can send it before we will have to buy a Geiger counter :(
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Well I connected T.E. Q1 to S8 trough Micro USB to Type-C converter.
It did not work. Phone does not see any new devices attached and app did not start. I tried manually running TE app but it did not find the module.
This converter was supplied with the phone and probably does not have OTG capability.
You should just contact i3system to see if they support phones with Type-C USB.
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Thanks a lot for testing.
I have ordered the Q1 and the TE USB-C adapter.
They say it works with it.
I also got this link from TE:
https://www.amazon.com/YCS-Basics-Reversible-Extender-Adapter/dp/B01DOBSS2S/ (https://www.amazon.com/YCS-Basics-Reversible-Extender-Adapter/dp/B01DOBSS2S/)
That should work :)
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Cool it's nice to hear that.
I'll be switching to a new phone soon so It's good to hear that I'll be able to use my TE Q1 with it... :-+
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Anyone have the current pricing for a Q1?
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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499$
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$500 from who? I couldn't even get the US distributor to e-mail me back! Anyone else successfully get some love form a US distributor?
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I understand the US distributor has placed a huge mark-up on these cameras.
The $499 price is direct from Korea and does not include shipping or importation customs fees.
I don't think you are able to buy direct as you have a local dealer now. For a change it is cheaper to buy something in Europe as we can still order direct.
Sorry it isn't better news. Your US dealer sounds an expensive and less than ideal source for this camera. IIRC they were charging North of $1000 for the camera.
Fraser
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Hi,
I am new here. After reading all what you wrote I decided to buy a TE-Q1 Plus. I am waiting to receive it next week. If you have any software related to this camera I appreciate if you help me to get it.
Thanks
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If you have any software
Thermal Expert provide their own software for free, both PC and Android(ask them), and JoeC's software(see pinned thread in this subforum) supports readout via a USB connection to the PC.
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Thank you. I will ask them and see joe-c software
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Recently came across this - surprised nobody found it earlier.
http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/ (http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/)
"Thermal Expert" by a Korean thermal imaging company "i3" (not to be confused with L3, who also make thermal imaging gear).
Details are vague but this is what we know;
- Release Q3 this year
- 384 x 288
- Android only at launch
- -20 to 100 degrees Celsius
Images supplied by i3 on their website appear to be very good quality - on par with Therm-app? Curiously the GUI has 2 video buttons.
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/g_11.jpg)
(http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/g_03.jpg)
Obviously the big question is price - I can't find any mention of price except here: http://www.tempsensornews.com/thermal_imaging/prototype-low-cost-smartphone-thermal-imager/ (http://www.tempsensornews.com/thermal_imaging/prototype-low-cost-smartphone-thermal-imager/)
Which states "Numbers like $500 per unit with more than 3 times the 32 K pixels of the ~$250 Seek Thermal and were heard resonating on the Expo floor."
Also here: http://electronics-eetimes.com/images/01-edit-photos-uploads/2015/2015-06-june/2015-06-19-eete-jh-yole2.jpg (http://electronics-eetimes.com/images/01-edit-photos-uploads/2015/2015-06-june/2015-06-19-eete-jh-yole2.jpg)
Which states "<$500 USD" but also a 2016 release date which is not in line with the "Q3 2015" figure on their webite.
EDIT: They have a video on their youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVk5HgiHWAU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVk5HgiHWAU)
It looks like the framerate isn't the best, and the lens has some sharpness issues at the edges, but still, it will certainly be the best option available at it's price point (assuming the $500 figure is true)
Not sure where you got your $500 price from, but last time I contacted them and asked (last year) for the cheapest unit with the cheapest lens, they said it was over $1000. Did they suddenly just double the price like that? Or are you remembering the info wrong? Where did you even get your $500 number from? I can't find any prices on the website. I had to contact them to get the price.
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This is an old mail I got from them... I have then bought TE Q1+ for 599$.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=410671;image)
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This is an old mail I got from them... I have then bought TE Q1+ for 599$.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=410671;image)
Wow! Those guys really jacked up the price recently then. The cheapest one I saw on the prices they showed me was like $999. Why would they do that? They are just cutting out potential customers, including me.
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One of two reasons. They are selling all they can make at the higher price. Or their cost of manufacture doesn't let the lower price work. Bolometer yield could be low, or any number of other things could raise the costs beyond what they projected.
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im thinking of upgrading my seek
i was thinking of this or a therm-app and these went from 499 to about 999 for some reason :o (therm-app also 999)
what would be the better buy, how does the Q1 Plus compare to a therm-app with 19mm lens
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Wauue thx guys very informative thread and certainly interesting 110k alternative to Opgals Thermapp..
sadly also been hooked by this expensive IR world syndrome in the seek for details and been trying to comprehend an overview from a noob perspective, as these tool are insanely pricey here in Scandinavia Denmark.and the prices are useally inflated by a factor of +80 to 90% in regards to USA retail after DK techtaxing, import and further +25% VAT..
I have looked at the Seek pro, and most sellers here list it at 800 to 850USD.
Finally found a Seek pro unit so-called new to 290USD plus a minor shipping-fee from US and took the plunge and label it for for no further taxing as the limit here is insamely low 13USD, sadly this socaled new unit Seek pro was IOS so reached out to Seek to ask if I could just use adapter with datapins' as in lightning to Micro USB.. they where not 100% sure, as the hardware was not identical, but mostly the other way around as Apple got some hardware surface mount attachment to make it valid but in theory it should work.
In the end' didn't wanna risk it' as 290 USD is still some dope and not least it wouldn't be fair in regards to the seller I was purchasing it from it from' to experience and not check it firsthand on a native system if there was any problem.
So instead jumped on my first IOS device,. and picked up a new 292 Euro IPad 2018 vers. with a lightning port from the UK and been having a field day with this IR-world. (very fascinating)
Here is some examples (link below) on what Im getting with this device,but the focus distance maxes out at 20cm, instead purchased & for at the moment got some cheap IR macro-lenses in transit. 1x20mm to 4½$ and 1x12mm 8$ incl shipping if they any good, don't know, I'm a noob and mostly learning as I go..but coming around this forum will be a helping hand and was not familiar that EEVblog was active in the world of IR cameras, but there is certainly some competent people in here, who knows their stuff.
Below videos all with Seek Pro IOS. (el cheapo-device at 290 USD with a 240x320 sensor and sadly the trees doesn't grow into the sky at this low price ballpark and after reading this thread got an appetite for Thermal Expert low key editions, if they were valid around the 500 USD ballpark. but if the price has raised here 2 years later with a factor of+100% (+999USD) it goes without saying it tumbles the purchase, - as after mandatory danish taxing and another +25% VAT it will not make sense. particularly not in regards to the result below from an 290 USD value..)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTJtb7oyUVo0CVfd0RQ5rsw? (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTJtb7oyUVo0CVfd0RQ5rsw?)
Mediainfo dump Seek pro, avarage-FPS is listed at just below 17fps, but the manual shutter alignement, does dip FPS when in play.
Complete name : C:\x\PIR-206_4.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp41/mp42/isom)
File size : 8.46 MiB
Duration : 1mn 14s
Overall bit rate : 947 Kbps
Movie_More : Taken with iPad7,5,iOS 11.3
Performer : SeekwareBlendModeNone
Encoded date : UTC 2018-05-08 08:52:35
Tagged date : UTC 2018-05-08 08:52:37
Video
ID : 2
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L2.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 1mn 14s
Bit rate : 881 Kbps
Width : 480 pixels
Height : 360 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 16.824 fps
Minimum frame rate : 1.685 fps
Maximum frame rate : 40.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.303
Stream size : 7.85 MiB (93%)
Title : Core Media Video
Encoded date : UTC 2018-05-08 08:52:35
Tagged date : UTC 2018-05-08 08:52:37
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Audio
ID : 1
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 1mn 14s
Source duration : 1mn 14s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 64.0 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel(s)_Original : 1 channel
Channel positions : Front: C
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Frame rate : 43.066 fps (1024 spf)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 578 KiB (7%)
Source stream size : 579 KiB (7%)
Title : Core Media Audio
Encoded date : UTC 2018-05-08 08:52:35
Tagged date : UTC 2018-05-08 08:52:37
But so far I do cherish the above thermal- result and I reckon I need to put out at least 3 to 4x times that to get any obvious better result at 320x240 or above sensorspecs, are there any obvious choices in the budget sub 1k USD ballpark. if one wanna upgrade from Seek pro, other then Therm-app 9hz vers. or Thermal Expert or a hacked Flir E4. which all seem to start from around 1000 USD.?
-new to the forum will take a look after a Seek pro thread and ask if somebody perhaps have tested their IOS version on an Android edition true basic adapters, but if its common knowledge, please state it..
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Wow! Those guys really jacked up the price recently then. The cheapest one I saw on the prices they showed me was like $999. Why would they do that? They are just cutting out potential customers, including me.
Did you get a quote directly from them? They got distributors in some countries who want twice of original price.
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Yes, I would definately contact I3 directly - as far as I know the prices are still 499$ for TE-Q1 and 599$ for the TE-Q1+ plus shipping fee of 80$ plus VAT/customs of your country.
Actually there is a distributer in Austria that sells the cameras on ebay and an online-shop (719€ for the TE-Q1 and 899€ for the TE-Q1+ currently). Link: http://highvoltageshop.com/epages/b73088c0-9f9a-4230-9ffc-4fd5c619abc4.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/b73088c0-9f9a-4230-9ffc-4fd5c619abc4/Categories/Waermebildkamera (http://highvoltageshop.com/epages/b73088c0-9f9a-4230-9ffc-4fd5c619abc4.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/b73088c0-9f9a-4230-9ffc-4fd5c619abc4/Categories/Waermebildkamera)
I got my TE-Q1+ directly from Korea for ~800€ (incl. shipping and 19%german VAT/customs) but at ~1.05USD/€ around january 2017. At the moment with exchange rates around 1.2USD/€ I would should get away with ~700€ delivered for the Plus-version and slightly below 600€ for the standard TE-Q1. So there is quite some offset compared to a purchase of the re-sellers...
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Yes, I would definately contact I3 directly - as far as I know the prices are still 499$ for TE-Q1 and 599$ for the TE-Q1+ plus shipping fee of 80$ plus VAT/customs of your country.
The issue is they'll forward you to distributor if there is any in your country.
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Any here made any inquiries about IOS support (hence the phrase "comming soon" Im not familiar with how long that has been stated on there site)?
■ Compatibility : Android (iOS will be soon)
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I just installed the new android app, some new things, like better color off the min and max temperature and some image enhancements.
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Anybody has any idea why there are such pixel "steps" on this image taken with TE Q1?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=576275;image)
Upscaled:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=576281;image)
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It looks like it was first upscaled with a 'nearest neighbor' type algorithm, and only then a real interpolating algorithm was used.
Leading to big blocks with a smooth but tiny transition between them.
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It's weird because there is no need for upscale since T.E. has 384x288 sensor. :-//
I'll redo capture with TE conencted to PC...
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Ok now I feel really stupid... :P
But hey in the name of science I shall publish my "investigation".
I took original 384x288 image upscaled it to 400% drawn two lines on it (dark gray and white) and downscaled it again to 384x288.
As you can see I got very similar artefacts with pixel steps.
Visible steps are because of low resolution of sensor and low angle of heater relative to horizontal lines.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=576404;image)
(enlarged image so you can see pixels better)
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Interesting.
I just ran a test with a similar-enough heater using a 640x480 ThermApp Pro (the only camera I had to hand). Although the resolution is higher than the TE I'd expect the results to have broadly comparable moiré. But I only managed to make it visible by playing around heavily with the palette. Here I've shown the original and the enhanced version. The B&W image is as it came from the camera, the psychedelic one started out in 'rainbow' palette and then had all the dials turned up to 11.
Finally, I took an Ironbow image and (a) shrunk it to 25% then re-sized it to the original and, separately, enlarged it by 400% then shrank it back to the original size. There is a perceptible loss of quality in the first but none in the second. All manipulations were done in Paint Shop Pro X.
It looks to me as though there's something iffy about the way the TE produces its JPGs. Some may remember I had problems with the initial driver software for my ThermApp Pro, where it was only using 384x288 pixels of the 640x480 sensor. I wonder if there may be something odd like that going on with the TE?
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I suspect it's a result of post processing. Moiré possibly, but unlikely as it shows up on CMOS sensors with low resolution due to debayering of the bayermatrix and interpolation of subpixels for RBG values. That's way you see green or purple in some grey striped shirts for example. Remember that upscaling to a non multiple resolution also counts as moiré.
Aliasing would a term to use. If you upscale or downscale you will make jumps. No doubt.
I also seen artifacts with sharpening applied. Or when I open and save a radiometric jpg through FLIR Tools mobile and compare that to the direct output of the MyFLIR app. It's really difficult to compare for me as my capturing app only allows for a single file to be saved and I would need to do up to eight individual captures to match all modes - which is a hassle due to the big with settings in ThermalCamera+
Remember that artifacts of post processing follow a pseudo log curve in their impact vs resolution. The lower you initial resolution is the more notable the the effects.
Modern digital cameras and even phones these days are doing a whole lot of computational imaging because their input a lot of data with 20MP images or 2x5.2k video. Thermal cameras don't nearly get close to those amounts of data. Therefore I see huge potential in a kind of computational MSX that used image recognition from a common database and rearranged the low amount of thermal pixels to every single part of the visual images and increase edge representation by this. Maybe just a thought I should patent ASAP or the future.
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So I tried to capture similar image (metal fireplace) with PC runing original TE software:
Not sure why did they even bother writing such crappy software...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=576809;image)
Joe's app on the other hand is working fantastic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=576794;image)
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Looks to me like those are artifacts from sharpening. Even though your scene is very high contrast there seem to be some noise at the pixel level(or an uneven) surface. I am guess that the sharpening is applied after the histogram application and therefore the tiny changes are greatly amplified.
On the other hand a lot of upscaling algorithms add a similar kind of sharpening to the image. But it's not working for his kind of inputs as seen(its way too strong). I have had this issue where due to the upscaling and sharpening all corners between high and low temperatures had a rainbow line between them because the algorithm made up new pixels in between by interpolation the high and low value of adjacent pixels. And came up with vastly different inbetween values. The results don't look great and are only getting worse by additional sharpening.
This is more prelevant in palettes that run through multiple colors and images that have a hard border with a larger temperature drop/rise.
There is a whole process called deconvolution that can be used to increase resolution, but it's a very difficult problem and not applicable for real time imaging.
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X-ray imaging has been around for quite a while - see, for example,
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Crookes_tube_xray_experiment.jpg/320px-Crookes_tube_xray_experiment.jpg) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crookes_tube_xray_experiment.jpg) (https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1539/24077999706_87789117df_m_d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrapurple/24077999706/in/album-72157661812888935/) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7366/26469399384_30363f6308_m_d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrapurple/26469399384/in/album-72157661812888935/) (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5665/23318695582_1e6310fe68_m_d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrapurple/23318695582/in/album-72157661812888935/) (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5786/23635936632_9957abec1d_m_d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrapurple/23635936632/in/album-72157661812888935/)
Click any image to embiggen and learn details of the setup used, or click here for more (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ultrapurple/albums/72157661812888935)
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Combined x-ray & thermal images are really cool. :-+
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I have found a way to disable high contrast pixelation effect on T.E. android app. It's "Enhance image" setting in the menu.
While this option does improve low contrast scenes it also ruins high contrast scenes.
With "Enhance image" enabled (and automaticaly upscaled and saved to JPEG in the app):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=589318;image)
With "Enhance image" disabled (and automaticaly upscaled and saved to JPEG in the app):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=589306;image)
Same image converted from csv to png in my ThexConvertGUI app and upscaled with waifu2x:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/another-smartphone-thermal-imager-from-i3/?action=dlattach;attach=589348;image)
I have decompiled apk from android app to find out why images have so strong jpg artefacts. Well JPEG compression is hard coded to 90. :palm:
source.compress(CompressFormat.JPEG, 90, outputStream2);
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Wow! That is a substantial improvement in quality. Kudos for accessing the data and determining that the poor image quality is simply down to an incorrect setting on the compression algorithm. Perhaps they meant to 'keep 90% of the quality', rather than 'throw 90% away'.
JPG's effect on straight lines is one of my pet hates. I work in technical publishing and so many people seem to think JPG is the right format to save everything - yet for things like screendumps and other line art its artifacts irretrievably knacker the image. JPG has its place, but high-compression JPG can be really, really nasty - even on photos. On text it's a disaster:
(https://rsgb.org/main/files/2016/10/Image16d-150x50.png) (https://rsgb.org/main/publications-archives/radcom/information-deadlines/photographs-for-radcom-and-the-website/)
(and yes I know that image is a PNG - it was deliberately saved that way so that the 'uncompressed' part remained uncompressed).
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There is nothing worse than jpg for graphics with lines or text. People who use it for anything other than photos will burn in digital hell. >:D
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A few days ago I got my TE-Q1. I find the pictures surprisingly noisy. Is this how it's supposed to look? I disabled the "enhance image" box. The phone is a galaxy s6.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/7330e62b-06fb-426f-be03-b497a7c7387b/dd38bmz-b2831188-922e-4016-a3bd-f803793d89c8.jpg/v1/fill/w_648,h_1234,q_70,strp/img_57_284746_16_472925_20190325_183443_ir_by_blueyellowmacaw_dd38bmz-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTI4MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzczMzBlNjJiLTA2ZmItNDI2Zi1iZTAzLWI0OTdhN2M3Mzg3YlwvZGQzOGJtei1iMjgzMTE4OC05MjJlLTQwMTYtYTNiZC1mODAzNzkzZDg5YzguanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTY3MiJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.re1T951QAt_Qx2pzFa4ymBOwP1gQc72i_uGSKh-VHZ0)
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/7330e62b-06fb-426f-be03-b497a7c7387b/dd38bn7-9542d2e1-b974-46bd-98c2-df688f060d90.jpg/v1/fill/w_648,h_1234,q_70,strp/img_57_285168_16_474056_20190325_165959_ir_by_blueyellowmacaw_dd38bn7-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTI4MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzczMzBlNjJiLTA2ZmItNDI2Zi1iZTAzLWI0OTdhN2M3Mzg3YlwvZGQzOGJuNy05NTQyZDJlMS1iOTc0LTQ2YmQtOThjMi1kZjY4OGYwNjBkOTAuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTY3MiJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.NzCBw6pGiPzRWRNyBg-AlrSwqT0AVuOKWA068JnjEBc)
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/7330e62b-06fb-426f-be03-b497a7c7387b/dd38bny-824368b7-ca4b-4149-8381-bee39605be52.jpg/v1/fill/w_648,h_1234,q_70,strp/img_57_285406_16_473632_20190328_175317_ir_by_blueyellowmacaw_dd38bny-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTI4MCIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzczMzBlNjJiLTA2ZmItNDI2Zi1iZTAzLWI0OTdhN2M3Mzg3YlwvZGQzOGJueS04MjQzNjhiNy1jYTRiLTQxNDktODM4MS1iZWUzOTYwNWJlNTIuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTY3MiJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.RS6wRoyyNgWgXSvRNCKzwMme_LYOLw-SSl81WWUmzH0)
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I would say this is okay noise. Your scenes are not much of a temp Delta, and the majority of the image is very low T delta. It can be improved by capturing the "raw" data and using a third party program to render it out.
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You should do a calibration against flat surface to remove some noise...
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You should do a calibration against flat surface to remove some noise...
Thanks it seems to reduce the noise a little when viewing but capturing pictures appear about the same, worse than what you see when you just look around.
Another thing, I took 2 close up pics of my leg from slightly different angles with the temperature span locked. As you can see the camera picture shows different color in each pic. Why is that? Should not my leg appear the same color from any angle if I lock the temperature span?
(https://i.imgur.com/IaP1OGk.jpg)
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Some of the other guys can elaborate on this, but you're changing the environment the sensor is viewing through to read the temperatures so yes it will change even with something minor like that.
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The sensors own temperature has a lot of influence. And after turning it on, you can wait up to 30 minutes to get the very best. The first 30 seconds can be a temp difference of 3° on some sensors.
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I have decompiled apk from android app to find out why images have so strong jpg artefacts. Well JPEG compression is hard coded to 90. :palm:
source.compress(CompressFormat.JPEG, 90, outputStream2);
A bit late to the party, but afaik, that 90 parameter actually means it is pretty darn high quality.. assuming I interpreted the correct API doc the correct way:
https://developer.android.com/reference/android/graphics/Bitmap.html#compress(android.graphics.Bitmap.CompressFormat, int, java.io.OutputStream) (https://developer.android.com/reference/android/graphics/Bitmap.html#compress(android.graphics.Bitmap.CompressFormat, int, java.io.OutputStream))
"Hint to the compressor, 0-100. 0 meaning compress for small size, 100 meaning compress for max quality."
If the parameter scales the same way as in typical image manipulation programs, 90 would be very high quality. In normal images/photos, I usually start to see issues only below 40-50 or so. The noise in thermal images might give it a hard time, though, but then again, the main content is often less demanding. So, 90 should be good enough for viewable image.
And yet, I'd still use "raw" (when available) for processing further (as in any photography/imagery/DSP), simply because 95% of the software processing inside devices is often relatively speaking "garbage" (and that includes even things like DSLRs by Canon/Nikon, let alone small companies with less software/DSP expertise). i3 seems like a company which should know what they are doing with software even if they'd be small, but I guess they are just like rest, managing to code something that is only "enough to pass the course".
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Has anyone of the TE-Q1 plus owners ever used the Alarm function from the temperature sub-menu. Well according to the manual
page 42, when you choose the alarm function and you set a temperature for example 38c, then whenever an object with higher than the set temperature (lets say 50c) is detected, then the object should appear in red and at the same time an alarm sound should be heard.
Well i have tried many times this alarm function but nothing happends. No red colour no alarm sound. All other choises from the temperature menu like point, min-max, line, rectangle, circle and emisivity work fine.
Can anybody confirm that this function works as described in the manual, which would mean that my camera has a problem, or it is not working on other cameras as well, and it might be a problem with the application ?
Thanks in advance
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Nope, couldn't get anything to happen with alarm. Also, the adjustment slider for the alarm temperature works in a horrible way.
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Thanks for replying. So if we can get some more confirmations from oter owners that nothing happends with the alarm, then we are almost sure it is the application fault. Waiting for more responses
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It's almost certainly the application. The dongle cameras don't do very much other than give an image. The host does all the fancy stuff like palette, gain, temperatures as well as any kind of iso therms of alarms.
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Got the alarm function to work. It was just too nice one. After choosing it, and having the desired temperature set, draw a rectangle in the view; the highlight will work on that area and alarm can be heard.
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Bravo @bugi, i think this alarm function is a very nice feature. I also got it to work as you said by drawing a rectangle to cover the hole screen and it worked but with no sound. I tried a note4 phone and everything worked including sound but the phone is a bit slow in frame rate.
I just wish that somebody in this forum would come up with an improved android app for the te-q1 plus, like they have done for therm-app and xtherm cameras . I myself am willing to pay for such an app and i think there are many owners of te-q1 in this forum that would not mind paying for an improved app like ThermAppPlus or Thermviewer. I am thinking of starting a new thread on this. what do you think ?
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Given the improvement that ThermViewer and ThermApp Plus give over the stock app I would expect something comparable for the TE series would bring similar benefits.
On the face of it, adapting ThermViewer would appear to be a good answer (AFAIK ThermApp Plus is highly dependant on the Opgal SDK but ThermViewer may be less so) but it rather depends on whether Jinhua can get hold of the TE SDK and, possibly, a camera to play with. The man's a genius - he adapted ThermViewer for the 640x480 Pro without ever having seen one.
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@Ultrapurple, i fully agree with your comment. Please see the new topic i just opened
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/express-your-interest-for-te-q1-improved-android-app-(possibly-thermviewer)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/express-your-interest-for-te-q1-improved-android-app-(possibly-thermviewer)/)
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A few days ago I got my TE-Q1. I find the pictures surprisingly noisy. Is this how it's supposed to look? I disabled the "enhance image" box. The phone is a galaxy s6.
I get noisy images too and also when just vieing through the phone screen it is more blury than i have seen from other cameras. I was expecting better viewing results so i am thinking of selling it and try xtherm t3s with the thermviewer app. Any comments or sugestions
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A few days ago I got my TE-Q1. I find the pictures surprisingly noisy. Is this how it's supposed to look? I disabled the "enhance image" box. The phone is a galaxy s6.
I get noisy images too and also when just vieing through the phone screen it is more blury than i have seen from other cameras. I was expecting better viewing results so i am thinking of selling it and try xtherm t3s with the thermviewer app. Any comments or sugestions
Maybe you already know these, but just in case...
After seen only the nice marketing cherry picks and the nice gallery photos here, and only a few "practical shots", I first thought a bit like that about my camera, too. But, a little bit of playing revealed, at least with/for my camera, that...
1) The depth of focus is (with these kind of lenses/camera) very narrow and the focus distance it came set with wasn't at the ranges I was trying at first. Thus, very blurry images. A bit of screwing the lens and sharpness got just fine (i.e. picking my eyebrows and individual hair on arms from 30cm away, as long as I can keep that distance stable).
2) The view on the phone is "digitally" zoomed, sort of. The native view is only 384x288 pixels, enlarged into something like 1440x1080 (x3.75 scaling, depends of course on the particular phone/display), so obviously it can not be as sharp as normal videos etc. (Although this one you probably knew, as you're comparing to other IR cameras as seen on phone).
3) Noise levels looked high at first, when looking at the initial "test subjects", e.g. a wall, or hand from close distance. As the AGC was on, it automatically expanded a very narrow thermal range to large brightness differences... and along with that sensitivity boost, it amplified to visible noise, too. After pointing to a view with larger temperature differences, the noise seemed to be closer to the level I expected. (I later played around with disabling or locking the AGC, but with weird results... I don't currently fully trust the AGC toggle.)
4) And finally, I realized that the "swap/recycle camera" icon is actually for offset re-calibration (temporary), and with that the remaining noise got reduced a lot. Though this one needs to be done quite often for best results. (EDIT: in the other thread you mentioned you had done calibration, so ignore this one.)
Granted, results still look like a phone camera trying to work in a dim room, and the TE-Q1 could have less noise, too, but this isn't a 1000-2000€ camera, and the official app apparently doesn't even try to do software based noise reduction (EDIT: it might do some NR after all) - which is actually better that way. (Best case would of course be to give a choice for how much and what kind of noise reduction to apply, but phones have limited processing power and such processing can also be done in post-processing, especially if more or less raw data is available.)
Of course, your camera could be faulty. It would help to see the "best" images you can get, when at optimal focus, with targets with good contrast and temperature differences (say, something like a warm piece of electronics (modem/router/switch, insides of PC), hot water), and just after been calibrated.
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As I cannot attach any files to PNs and this might be of interest to some others:
Attached is a more recent Android SDK for the TE-Q1 from 2018. Probably not the most recent version but maybe this helps some of you …
I think I have already seens a version with M1 support but not sure where I put it. :palm:
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As I cannot attach any files to PNs and this might be of interest to some others:
Attached is a more recent Android SDK for the TE-Q1 from 2018. Probably not the most recent version but maybe this helps some of you …
I think I have already seens a version with M1 support but not sure where I put it. :palm:
Seems nikoum already linked that same SDK version in this thread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/express-your-interst-for-te-q1-improved-android-app-(possibly-thermviewer)/msg2365212/#msg2365212 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/express-your-interst-for-te-q1-improved-android-app-(possibly-thermviewer)/msg2365212/#msg2365212)
Considering how much one should or should not copy directly from the SDK (if rewriting that level stuff), even older versions provide the most important things (how to communicate via USB, and how to interpret the incoming data). The newer versions have one new nice bit of info, how to initiate re-reading the flash. Also some obvious improvements like how it calculates FPA temperature estimate, splitting things to multiple threads, ... They might have something else nice, too, but I haven't had the time to fully read through and decipher the newest version; most of what I've read so far are the same as in the code couple years ago (perhaps few unused members removed, and few unused members added :P)
If using the SDK directly as is, at some point they added at least one significant optimization; option to do certain calculations with a method that uses precalculated tables. But still including lots of silly stuff, and if their app uses the same calcs/SDK within it, the app still eating battery like crazy seems to indicate there would be room for improvement (though I don't know if the USB device current is added for the app's consumption statistics).
As for the M1 support, the Android SDK for Q1 ver 181027 doesn't seem to know about M1, either, unless it is indeed the same sensor, just windowed somehow; they seem to now provide the mysterious "recog" values through the API, instead of ignoring them inside the SDK. The Windows SDK does seem to have some knowledge about the different cameras, but I've only taken a short peek at that with left eye.
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Maybe you already know these, but just in case.........
.........results still look like a phone camera trying to work in a dim room, and the TE-Q1 could have less noise, too, but this isn't a 1000-2000€ camera, and the official app apparently doesn't even try to do software based noise reduction - which is actually better that way.
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Bugi thank you very much for your suggestions which i followed but as you and others have noted the stock android app has very limited abilities. You have described it beautifully in the above quote. I have read some of your posts here and in the other relevant threads about te q1 and you seem very knowlegable and capable.
So why dont you (even with the help of other capable members) undertake the project of modyfying the stock app with improvements such as the ones you already planned and also noise reduction, clearer view, etc. Judging from the interest shown in the other thread about improved app for te q1, i would say you will find quite a few supporters (myself included) if you come up with a modified app.
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.........results still look like a phone camera trying to work in a dim room, and the TE-Q1 could have less noise, too, but this isn't a 1000-2000€ camera, and the official app apparently doesn't even try to do software based noise reduction - which is actually better that way.
So why dont you (even with the help of other capable members) undertake the project of modyfying the stock app with improvements such as the ones you already planned and also noise reduction, clearer view, etc.
Some already have sort of undertaken it, although not modifying original, but writing completely new one - copyrights and stuff.
But as these kind of projects are not our paid work, things progress only when we get enough time to do it and have no higher priority and/or more interesting stuff to do. For example, in my case, I'll have enough time to do more work on the "driver" side perhaps next summer, and I estimate that I won't be able to do much more than that "driver" side. (Which will aim at doing about the same as the current official code, just with less CPU use and hopefully few things in a slightly better way.) The UI etc. other parts of a full app would be many times larger project, so I'll probably just slap the SDK example for that and fine-tune it for my development needs. Or perhaps co-operate with others who are doing full app if my driver could be useful for their better done rest of the app, or something.
Note how I mentioned that "... is actually better that way" - the app not trying to do noise reduction. (EDIT: the app might actually do some noise reduction, after all.) The thing is, mobile phones, even the flagships, have relatively limited processing power to do these things (especially when not using the DSP/GPU parts to help), so the result of such on-phone noise reduction is poor quality output and/or reduced frame rate. Note how many even good phones are already having troubles with the app in its current state, while not even wasting CPU power on noise reduction.
Also, most common (and light-weight) noise reduction algorithms are always compromises; they reduce noise, but also some actual information from the image (usually small details and edge contrast). Thus, it is best to consider the phone+app as the viewfinder, record whatever the camera gives, then post-process e.g. on a PC with a lot more processing power and time, better display to look at the results, ability to adjust processing settings and redo it if needed, etc.
I'm not saying that an app must not do any noise reduction; it could be an optional thing, or a specialized algorithm that works only on IR camera specific issues (I'm planning to try one or two tricks like that), but in general, the benefits are small.
My #1 change towards having less noise would be recording binary "raw" frames (with or without calibration), instead of current either 8-bit already visualized output or CSV. (CSV?!? whyyyy.. CSV was meant as human-readable and/or easy to import to spreadsheets, neither of which are very relevant for IR images.) The raw data would allow better post-processing, and binary format is much more efficient than CSV for writing and reading. As a compromise format, some sort of grayscale image format might be able to transfer high resolution "raw" values efficiently while still being viewable with standard programs, but I haven't studied this possibility yet.
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TE-Q1
Can anyone explain why the colors are changing here? The temperature ranges are locked yet the colors change a lot depending on whether the masonry heater is in the picture or not.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/7330e62b-06fb-426f-be03-b497a7c7387b/dd5w520-254f41f6-ad8e-4ddc-8653-ad1631ca2c17.gif?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzczMzBlNjJiLTA2ZmItNDI2Zi1iZTAzLWI0OTdhN2M3Mzg3YlwvZGQ1dzUyMC0yNTRmNDFmNi1hZDhlLTRkZGMtODY1My1hZDE2MzFjYTJjMTcuZ2lmIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.v3a1F62rGx3sH0u3kpxSY2tiaPHKRNVcblfUXtIc0G0)
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TE-Q1
Can anyone explain why the colors are changing here? The temperature ranges are locked yet the colors change a lot depending on whether the masonry heater is in the picture or not.
I noticed the same merely by viewing a wall and moving my hand in and out of the view. The wall got dark when hand came into view. That is why I wrote somewhere here that I don't quite trust that AGC toggle or the range locks. I have been reading the SDK codes, but I haven't been able to dig into the AGC stuff deep enough... and the app could do things differently than the SDK.
EDIT: After a bit more digging into the frame processing code, the SDK seems to always do AGC effect. There is a part in an if about AGC disabled, but it seems to only do some temperature-based limiting, and does not affect the scaling. It also counts how many pixels were clipped on each of min and max side, but then does not use those counts. If the app uses that SDK, that would explain...
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My earlier "the official app apparently doesn't even try to do software based noise reduction" may have been incorrect. Older SDK versions didn't do it at all, and reading the newer SDK code, I first thought certain pieces of code were part of edge enhancement, but after analyzing the code better, it seems to be actually doing some effort of noise filtering. Note, that is for SDK, the app might still not do it, or could do it in a different way.
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TE-Q1
Can anyone explain why the colors are changing here? The temperature ranges are locked yet the colors change a lot depending on whether the masonry heater is in the picture or not.
I noticed the same merely by viewing a wall and moving my hand in and out of the view. The wall got dark when hand came into view.
Indeed.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/7330e62b-06fb-426f-be03-b497a7c7387b/dd62p33-1fe7e6c8-137b-4a3c-ad9d-f32b225b6cc2.gif?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzczMzBlNjJiLTA2ZmItNDI2Zi1iZTAzLWI0OTdhN2M3Mzg3YlwvZGQ2MnAzMy0xZmU3ZTZjOC0xMzdiLTRhM2MtYWQ5ZC1mMzJiMjI1YjZjYzIuZ2lmIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.KK8RVL7G73KeCTTXAdNbu8egExk0VhQX3fl8N63bce4)
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This may be a real optical effect and reflects the energy that is reaching the focal plane by reflection off the side walls of the housing, scattering from dust and surface imperfections on the lens and other similar sources. It is not being focused so an image is not formed, just a large blurry region of different intensity. You can map these effects by looking at a cold uniform background and moving an intense point source to different angles from the lens centerline but at a constant distance from the lens. A hot soldering iron pointing directly at the camera is probably good enough for the purpose.
High end cameras put a lot of thought and effort into optics and baffle design to minimize these effects. You might be able to make some improvements with external baffles (like the sun shield sold for visible cameras), lens cleaning and judicious application of non-reflective paint.
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Could someone explain how calibration works on TE cameras (or in general)? My experience is that everytime I start up the app I need to calibrate against a flat surface to minimize the noise. Usually the noise is constantly being updated but after a few minutes the noise starts to look static and I have to calibrate again. I notice that calibration highly affects the temperature numbers shown as well.
This is in contrast to my seek compact which does calibration automatically once every 5 seconds or so with it's internal shutter thing.
I have had times where my TE-Q1 gets 1 or 2 weird spots in the image that goes away after calibration but slowly creeps back.
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Could someone explain how calibration works on TE cameras (or in general)? My experience is that everytime I start up the app I need to calibrate against a flat surface to minimize the noise. Usually the noise is constantly being updated but after a few minutes the noise starts to look static and I have to calibrate again. I notice that calibration highly affects the temperature numbers shown as well.
The NUC was stored in Ram and need therfore to be refreshed each time.
I have had times where my TE-Q1 gets 1 or 2 weird spots in the image that goes away after calibration but slowly creeps back.
maybe this are defect pixels, see attachment.
hope it helps,
best wishes
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The bad pixel data is saved to a file, so that data usually does not need to be refreshed after first run, though it will be checked every time the offset calibration is done, too. (Add compile-decompile-understanding -issues caveats here, but it seems the SDK has small bug on that user bad pixel update, which might make it stop working on a session after a number of runs of calibration). Unlike the manual states, there is no need keep pressing anything for long time.. short tap is enough, it'll do it, at least did for me.
Note also that if one has multiple cameras, the same saved bad pixel file will be used, so deleting it when switching camera could be useful.
The calibration stored in the camera flash is made at certain target temperatures at certain time of operation and at certain ambient temperature(s). Since the camera's pixel performance varies over time, even if the calibration time situation could reproduced, the shown view would not be exactly as good.
The offset-part of the user calibration is indeed not saved to a file, so start of the app (and possibly detach/attach of the camera) is enough to reset the user calibration.
The SDK does user calibration by averaging 7 frames for offset compensation, and uses one more frame for bad pixel scan.
The software (SDK/app) tries to compensate for initial warmup and sensor's temperature changes, and something about ambient, too, but those compensations are estimates.
Thus, for best results, it is best to just start the app, let the camera warm up (say, 10-15 minutes, if not more, the old reverse engineering thread has some nice info on how the values change over time), then do the user calibration. By that time the drifts and weird spots should have mostly stabilized.
In my unit, after a short while, there is quite wide darker vertical stripe on the left, but not perfectly limited to specific columns. The user calibration gets rid off it, though in the early minutes it slightly creeps back, less so later (with warmed camera).
That the calibration would affect the temperature numbers, too, I don't know about. I haven't yet deciphered the user offset calibration effects fully (or tested in practice).
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The User Dead Update manual says to press the calibration button for 8 seconds and then a message pops up saying " Dead Update Please close the lens with the lens cup and press the start button "
It also says that the file is saved on the phone memory as i3cam/dead.txt
Well in my TE Q1 plus camera it does not work this way. No matter if I touch the calibration button for 8 seconds or just touch it once, the following message comes up :
" Image Calibration Please close the lens with the lens cup and press the start button "
And the file is saved on the phone memory as i3cam/dead.bin (not txt). It can be that the manual is old and they have changed the process in the newer apps.
The thing that matters is that every time I connect the camera I have to do calibration because the image is full of dark vertical lines and lot of noise that disappear after the calibration (see attachments with lens cup on). After some use the noise appears to come back to a lesser degree and needs to be calibrated again. So for me it has to be calibrated right after connection to the phone and, depending on the usage time, about every 8-10 minutes. Another thing is that regardless of the calibration, if you use the min/max, point or alarm features, the temperatures detected in the first 5-8 minutes are off by 2.5-3.5 degrees in the range of 25-35 C, so you cannot depend on them. I have compared the camera readings of a human face (usually 35.5-36.5 C) to those of an expensive ir thermometer and verified those differences. Only after 10 minutes of usage, temperatures get closer to reality but they still deviate by 0.5 - 1.5 C.
Can others verify the above ?
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That is standard for pretty much every thermal camera. The calibration you're doing with a short press is an FFC, which equalizes the whole image with a known uniform source. It needs to be done regularly especially after power up, until the camera's operating temp is reached.
Some cameras include a mechanical shutter they can close/open automatically to perform a regular FFC, and some also warn you that the temp readings aren't valid until the camera is warm. These features aren't present there, but the tech is the same and thus it works the same, up to you to deal with it.