Author Topic: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown  (Read 68025 times)

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Offline nixxon

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2016, 07:58:50 pm »
Quote
See the teardown vid - the camera itself outputs LVDS data, once you send it whatever magic commands it needs. The control box outputs composite video, but needs to think it's in a car.
I will be investigating it when I get time, but that won't be for a while

Have you had a chance to investigate the Audi Night Vision any further, Mike?

I forgot to mention, there is a guy in the neighborhood selling an Audi Night Vison lens/sensor unit assembly. (no control box). I was thinking of using the Germanium lens as a close up tool for my Fluke TiR. And if it is possible I want to make the Audi camera a stand alone working unit (with a separate LCD screen and battery pack). He is asking the equivalent of US$ 130 for it. I guess it is worth that amount. Any chance somebody will hack this equipment any further soon?
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2016, 09:58:16 pm »
They make good paperweights and a source of parts. Do not expect a working 'camera only' hack any time soon ;-)

Any that have had any form of hacking already tried on them will be in 'lockdown' so an even worse hacking proposition.

Fraser
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Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2017, 11:27:14 am »
I also have a BMW thermal imaging camera, the 2nd Gen BMW system,4 wire interface,and the research work has made little progress
1 camera interface definition.(1.JPG)
2, the decoder using MAX9260, as long as the build simple circuit can output RGB encoding 16bit, the logic analyzer results, video decoding is correct, but the camera does not output pixel data, should be the protection mechanism of the problem.
3, the use of PC through the MAX9260 to send the camera command (232, RX/TX), in some baud rate can receive replies, but I do not have the exact command, can not let the camera work properly.
If you have a BMW car or rent a car, you can grab data with a simple tool(logical analyzer or serial port tool), you can remove the protection mechanism.
Wiring mode is as follows
 

Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2017, 10:49:19 am »
Hope that more people join the crack job
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2017, 04:24:38 pm »
Hope that more people join the crack job

So you are posting from Iran (at least you removed country from your profile now) asking for help with cracking ITAR controlled technology, and those are your only posts on this forum. Right.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2017, 06:52:15 pm »
Why on earth are these locked down in the first place? What are they protecting them from? I can't see why BMW or Audi would care if someone uses their parts in something else. Are they afraid of the camera modules being stolen off of parked cars?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2017, 07:50:48 pm »
Why on earth are these locked down in the first place? What are they protecting them from? I can't see why BMW or Audi would care if someone uses their parts in something else. Are they afraid of the camera modules being stolen off of parked cars?
BMW / Audi don't care -  it's a condition imposed by the camera manufacturer to ensure they stay within US export regs, to avoid them being repurposed
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2017, 08:04:29 pm »
As Mike says, it is a requirement of ITAR(USA) and Dual Use Technology regulations. These cameras are 320x240 pixels with a 60fps output. They therefore are a controlled product.

The reasons for such controls have been detailed in other threads but basically, a thermal camera can be a very effective weapon aiming or guidance system. The appropriate authorities set the frame rate as <9fps for cameras that do not require the tighter ITAR and DUT distribution restrictions.
9fps is not great on a vehicle travelling at high speed so Autoliv opted to use a FLIR high frame rate camera that was suitably locked down to comply with ITAR and DUT regulations. High frame rate thermal imaging can involve much red tape when it comes to export from one country to another. Not great for a car manufacturer.

Fraser
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:10:43 pm by Fraser »
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Offline BradC

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2017, 08:06:11 pm »
Why on earth are these locked down in the first place? What are they protecting them from? I can't see why BMW or Audi would care if someone uses their parts in something else. Are they afraid of the camera modules being stolen off of parked cars?

High speed IR cameras make great fine tuning guidance add-ons for high powered fireworks, so there are a number of places that try hard to keep them out of the hands of people who might like to use them like that.

The amount of paperwork required to get some medium speed units used for CCTV into Qatar a few years ago would make your head spin. I'm sure the automotive manufacturers are doing their part in making them difficult to use.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2017, 08:30:34 pm »
Surely anyone wanting to use such a thing for missile guidance would have the resources to make reverse engineering and re-purposing the cameras trivial? I mean it seems like designing an entire new board to interface directly with the sensor would be trivial compared to designing a workable guided missile.

I guess that's the usual approach though, put a gigantic expensive and inconvenient lock on the front door but leave a window open.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2017, 08:47:43 pm »
You would have to ask those on the various Dual Use Technology commitees for their reasons and thought processes.

Ask yourself this though...... if a technology has proven to be a tactical advantage over your enemies, why on earth would you make it EASY for them to obtain the same ? The 9fps restriction is actually generous in my opinion. If I had needed to prevent weapons use of the technology I would have limited the cameras to 1fps or even lower.

As I say, this has been covered before and I do not want to quote chapter and verse about why a control is needed on this technology and go through all the counter arguments about ease of obtaining the technology on eBay etc. The regulations are extant and remain a legal requirement when selling this technology. That is all we really need to know.

Fraser
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Offline james_s

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2017, 09:22:11 pm »
I just find artificial limitations annoying. I believe that if I own a piece of hardware then I am entitled to use it any way I please, and that includes unlocking the full potential of the hardware. I was similarly annoyed the way earlier GPS hardware was deliberately crippled but at least that requirement went away eventually. I don't care what their reasoning is, it's stupid, nefarious people will always find a way around such limitations leaving legitimate users as the only ones impacted.
 

Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2017, 01:04:23 am »
Hope that more people join the crack job

So you are posting from Iran (at least you removed country from your profile now) asking for help with cracking ITAR controlled technology, and those are your only posts on this forum. Right.


I think you are misunderstood, I came from China, concerned about "EEVblog" has been a long time, I just haven't posted any posts, The screenshot of the logic analyzer can prove what I said.

Studying this is just out of interest, it's for fun. make it work instead of turning it into a scrap metal.  I think you should be able to understand that feeling
 

Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2017, 01:21:18 am »
Surely anyone wanting to use such a thing for missile guidance would have the resources to make reverse engineering and re-purposing the cameras trivial? I mean it seems like designing an entire new board to interface directly with the sensor would be trivial compared to designing a workable guided missile.

I guess that's the usual approach though, put a gigantic expensive and inconvenient lock on the front door but leave a window open.

If it's for military use, I don't think it's going to come here at all.
Just a FPGA can do, no matter which country has more resources to handle this
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2017, 08:08:15 am »
Hope that more people join the crack job

So you are posting from Iran (at least you removed country from your profile now) asking for help with cracking ITAR controlled technology, and those are your only posts on this forum. Right.


I think you are misunderstood, I came from China

Why did you initially put Iran in your profile ?   :-//
to help you at this point would be crazy  :palm:
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2017, 09:21:34 am »

Just a FPGA can do, no matter which country has more resources to handle this
You know FPGAs are export controlled as well, right?
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2017, 10:46:10 am »
Ask yourself this though...... if a technology has proven to be a tactical advantage over your enemies, why on earth would you make it EASY for them to obtain the same ?

Because the bad guys will find a workaround, and everyone else will be inconvenienced.  Pure security theater.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2017, 12:22:07 pm »
Your statement appears to be that of a disgruntled consumer. Those who NEED the technology in a friendly country can have it. That has ALWAYS been the case. Just contact FLIR, do the paperwork and pay your money. Nobody is stopping you owning a high resolution, high frame rate camera.

It should also be remembered that the ONLY reason we have such advanced and affordable thermal imaging cameras these days is Military use and the Government military budgets that paid for the development of the sensors. The civilian world benefits from this military development because we were permitted to buy and own this technology. It was never a right to own it. The situation could have remained as it was when I started using such technology...  high spec cameras were only provided to friendly Governments and scientific/Industrial institutions, and then, only after security checks.

Many will likely disagree with me, but we should honestly be grateful for what we have, rather than whinging about thermal camera prices, current technology limitations or Government restrictions. People appear to not know just how fortunate they already are !

If anyone wants a really nice high quality thermal imaging camera, contact FLIR and I feel sure that they will help you obtain the obje t of your desires.

If you want high performance thermal imaging on the cheap via a hacked Autoliv camera....... you are on your own. But that is surely part of the 'fun' of hacking for those who do such :)

You have never had it so good ......... enjoy :)

Fraser
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 12:25:46 pm by Fraser »
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Offline lukier

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2017, 12:41:29 pm »
In principle I agree with the need of export controls - while there are anti-radar measures and counter measures for other guidance systems, the thermal response is difficult to hide. The only thing I know of is the thermal masking on the prototype polish PL-01 tank.

I'm curious though if the export controls are effective. Somehow it didn't stop the North Korean and Iranian nuclear programs - see Siemens PLCs (Stuxnet), Mitutoyo's coordinate measuring machines and similar cases. I think the BIS export control lists are a bit outdated (mentioning tape devices etc), while sometimes having quite broad definitions (e.g. anything that digitizes analog signal with such and such parameters). For example 1 GHz oscilloscopes are export restricted (to some countries) - 1 GHz scope is not a big deal nowadays, even Rigol makes them.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2017, 12:58:25 pm »
I agree that the export controls need to be revisited. They are outdated in many areas. The intention was good, and appropriate when written. The World of technology moves very fast. This may be why the regulations are 'broad brush strokes' to cover current and predicted future developments.

One thing I know about policies and regulations is that there will always be people who wish to circumvent them through legal loop holes. That fact makespolicy writers very prone to creating complex and comprehensive documents. I speak from the position of being a security policy author.

Thermal imaging is a powerful tool and so the regulations on its distribution were made quite draconian. There has been relaxation of the regulation content over the years and the policy makers included the commercial world in the meetings that created the current policies and regulations. This was essential now that thermal imaging has become important in many industries outside the Military.

Finally, there will always be failures in policy, regulations and people. Regulations do not prevent people on-selling a controlled product to an inappropriate or illegal destination. The regulations do enable a Government to prosecute that individual or company however. Just look at the Iraqi SuperGun and Missile system Batteries legal cases. Both defendants went to prison so they could do no further harm. That was only legally possible because of the legally binding regulations controlling such exports.

Fraser


« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 01:06:28 pm by Fraser »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2017, 03:57:16 pm »
It's the same with many things, as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I very often encounter rules and regulations designed to stop various forms of abuse that instead only affect legitimate users. All forms of copy protection are like this, security dongles, HDCP, all of the various protections on CD and DVD media, it all creates hassle for paying customers but the pirates have no trouble cracking it. I also fundamentally hate intentional crippling, if the hardware is capable of doing certain things, I want to be able to utilize all of those features without any of it being locked out. Also I think people should be able to enjoy the cool technology the world has to offer regardless of what country they live in. The real danger in the modern world is small groups of individuals with very crude and often improvised weapons. The Oklahoma city bombing, 9/11, the subway bombings, the recent concert bombing, the list goes on and on. None of these attacks used any sort of fancy controlled technology whatsoever. The world has moved on and outdated export controls do not offer a lot of protection.
 

Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2017, 12:51:10 am »
Hope that more people join the crack job

So you are posting from Iran (at least you removed country from your profile now) asking for help with cracking ITAR controlled technology, and those are your only posts on this forum. Right.



I think you are misunderstood, I came from China

Why did you initially put Iran in your profile ?   :-//
to help you at this point would be crazy  :palm:


I don't know how it was set up in Iran
 

Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2017, 01:01:59 am »

Just a FPGA can do, no matter which country has more resources to handle this
You know FPGAs are export controlled as well, right?


Some high-end models do export controls, but this is only "EP3C25U256" and can be purchased anytime in China.
 

Offline zxase258

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2018, 02:10:11 am »
Hi. I am also from China.
Last year I tried to crack the BMW Night Vision Thermal Imaging Camera. It is a version with analog video output and LIN control. I am fortunate to have a complete set of components (CAMERA+CONTROL UNIT) and a possible VIN code. I purchased a programmer that can decrypt 9S12 from taobao. I tried to read the binary file in the control unit. But the programmer seems to be faulty and may have damaged the control unit microcontroller---When entering decryption, the programmer The internal power supply makes a lot of noise, there may be a short circuit, and the data cannot be read. Later I bought a new microcontroller from the other vendors for the programmer. The data has now been read, but it is not certain if he is undamaged. And the data read out has 2Mbyte. And the microcontroller memory doesn't have that much space...
With regard to those export restrictions, it should be aimed at extremely backward countries. For example, if they want to connect their cameras to a TV, they can be used as an excellent reconnaissance equipment. Rather than rebuilding the camera's control system. :-DD
 

Offline xmjacky

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Re: Audi automotive thermal imaging night vision camera teardown
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2018, 01:04:53 pm »
Can you add me to chat? 我的微信号xmjacky0415
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 01:09:51 pm by xmjacky »
 


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