Author Topic: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread  (Read 135963 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #150 on: May 07, 2015, 02:10:39 pm »
I hope not. I have no issue with a provider of 3D printing services letting us know that they exist  :-+

Aurora
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline 3DPrintingService

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: gb
  • www.3dquickprinting.com
    • 3D Printing Service
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #151 on: May 07, 2015, 03:27:35 pm »
Thanks Aurora :)


Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2185
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2015, 04:09:54 pm »
Any recommendations for 3d printing in the US?
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2185
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2015, 08:50:20 pm »
Any recommendations for 3d printing in the US?

bump...
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2015, 09:34:05 pm »
I hear a lot of positive comments about the high quality of the Shapeways prints as they are printed using a very high performance sintered (?) material printer and not the common extruder type.

http://www.shapeways.com/

15% off on Friday by the looks of it.

I am in the UK so regret I can offer no other recommendations.

There may be some 3D printing related threads on this forum that can help you more ?

Aurora 
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2185
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #155 on: May 21, 2015, 02:47:12 am »
 

Offline murcielago

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 16
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #156 on: May 25, 2015, 04:52:16 pm »
can i confirm the t198530 is the correct replacement battery for this?

the manual doesn't make any mention of the t198423 (the model number of the battery included in the unit)

 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #157 on: May 25, 2015, 05:01:26 pm »
@alank2,

That lens is OK but consider the focus point. With that lens it will be approx 50mm in front of the lens. I found that a bit too close and selected the 60mm an 100mm focus point lenses.

Aurora
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #158 on: May 25, 2015, 05:16:55 pm »
@murcielago

Battery is listed as FLIR T198530 as a spare part.

http://store.flir.com/product/ex-series-battery/ex-series-accessories

Full battery technical details including manufacturer are provided here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg341784/#msg341784

No third party version known of at this time (unlike some other FLIR camera models)

Cell replacement is relatively simple as it is a standard type and only battery safety electronics are present in the battery pack (in other words it is dumb and not protected against cell changing)

My UK FLIR supplier has the battery here:

http://www.tester.co.uk/flir-t198530-battery?gclid=Cj0KEQjwkIurBRDwoZfi1bGCxocBEiQAmcs-et_iJrKvydYDSaZC-TWyLEfbeq6gP-ni8uY87iLQorcaAmZP8P8HAQ

Aurora
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 12:50:18 pm by Fraser »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline alank2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2185
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2015, 10:27:54 pm »
Thanks Aurora, I ordered the 50mm and 100mm, they are $17 each shipped.  Shapeways canceled my first order because the polishing process was incompatible with the 0.5mm channel that holds the lens.  They had a "fix" button and it made the channel thicker so that it extends past the back side so we'll see how it turns out.
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #160 on: December 12, 2017, 01:48:05 pm »
I am just giving this ancient E4 related thread a bump as more recent purchasers of the E4 may find its contents helpful.

Fraser
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 
The following users thanked this post: shiftdelete

Offline mrubbert

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 34
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2017, 11:44:45 pm »
For 3Dprint in local area, try this: https://www.3dhubs.com/
I got my Lens tool printed same day within 10min pickup.
They also have CNC alu.... options.

Now waiting for the ordered e4 3.9.0
 

Offline ixfd64

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 345
  • Country: us
    • Facebook
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #162 on: December 14, 2017, 11:21:11 pm »
One thing I had heard about the Ex series is that the screen is easily scratched. Is this still the case?

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #163 on: December 14, 2017, 11:33:41 pm »
Yes.

The screen is made from VERY soft plastic that may be easily scratched. Sadly screen protectors designed for the Ex series appear to be rare and expensive. Last time I saw on it was around $30. I bought a whole load of mobile phone and iPad screen protectors with the intention of making my own protector to fit the E4. Avoid the tempered glass protectors if you intend to cut them  ;D

I personally like the protectors that have a gel like adhesive on the rear that holds the protector in place with no bubbles, yet may be removed and washes before re-application to thevscreen. I have had one on my original TomTom Go Classic Sat Nav for many years

The problem is that the Ex and Exx series camera have quite large screens making finding a close matching protector challenging.

Fraser
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline rch

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: wales
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #164 on: December 15, 2017, 12:34:06 am »
Do you know if all screen protectors are fully transparent to infra red?
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #165 on: December 15, 2017, 01:30:05 am »
Sorry, you have lost me there. Why do the LCD display screen protectors need to be fully transparent to IR ?

The protector is on the LCD screen plastics and not the lens block.

If you wish to make a lens protector for a thermal camera, you need Polyolefin plastic film of thickness 12um to 15um. Such would need to be mounted in a frame and gently heated to make it taught.

https://www.industrialpackaging.com/blog/pvc-polyethylene-polyolefin-the-differences

Fraser
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:15:12 pm by Fraser »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline rch

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: wales
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2017, 07:56:17 pm »
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about lens protectors for some reason - thanks for the answer!
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #167 on: December 15, 2017, 10:27:42 pm »
Rch,

No problem  :)

Lens protectors come in two varieties, long life, and disposable. Long life protectors tend to be made using a Germanium window. This is AR coated just like the cameras lenses. As such these are very expensive. £1000+ for a FLIR protector is not unusual. The disposable lens protectors are considerably cheaper and commonly used where liquids are being observed, or are present, at close quarters. These are usually made from Polyolefin plastic film and the film can sometimes be replaced by the user, when required.

Long life lens protectors provide decent protection from liquid splashes, dirt and even light impacts. The disposable protectors provide protection from liquid splashes and dirt. The film is easily ruptured so impact protection is minimal.

Both types of lens protector usually comprise a lens mounting ring of some description into which the protective window is fitted. On cameras designed for use in harsh conditions, the window is usually of the long life Germanium type and it forms part of the cameras sealed case. An example of such is a fire fighting camera.

Fraser
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:36:12 pm by Fraser »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline rch

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: wales
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #168 on: December 17, 2017, 12:26:25 am »
That's interesting.  I suppose if your using the IR camera outside the lab at least some splash protection is a very good idea.
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #169 on: December 17, 2017, 12:50:47 am »
It was a simple equation for some owners..... spend be money on lens protection or risk a huge repair bill if the objective got scratched or damaged by chemical agents.

The Objectives are reasonably robust though so rain is not going to cause harm to them so long as the water is removed reasonably soon and very carefully using the correct technique.

Watching a Li-Ion battery destroy itself outside the lab might require working at a distance or, working 'close in' appropriate lens protection just in case the cell pack created a vapour cloud or there is an explosion event creating flying material.

Even with modern, cheaper, thermal cameras, a destroyed objective still costs a significant sum of money. A destroyed Germanium lens on a FLIR camera could actually cause it to be written-off as beyond economic repair.

Fraser
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline lwi004

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #170 on: December 22, 2017, 12:03:01 pm »
Hi

Can anyone point me in the right direction for a cheap ND filter to extend the temp range of my E4(E8)

I'm doing tests on some resistors and want to have a better of idea of the actual temperature. Doesn't need to be TOO accurate or anything.

I already have a close up lens in one of the 3D printed holders, so something which fits into the same holder would be perfect.

Thanks
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #171 on: December 22, 2017, 01:46:17 pm »
Iwi004,

Sadly ND filters for thermal cameras are not common. The reason for this is that the maximum temperature capability of a microbolometer thermal camera is set using the pixel bias voltages. Cameras that need greater temperature range just have two or more bias voltages that create additional ranges. As the range is increased, the sensitivity normally decreases. For very high temperatures, cameras do need a filter or attenuators  to be attached in the optical path. Such cameras are usually of the Industrial variety.

Now back to your situation........

Your E4 should be capable of measuring most electronic components within its maximum temperature capability. Temperatures much higher than 260C would normally indicate a serious situation that could lead to self desoldering of the component ! Are you able to expand a little on your situation ?

The Emissivity of electronic components can be an issue so you need to ensure your camera is set up correctly respect. You can carry out a temperature accuracy check on a certain component by using a surface contact thermocouple and then comparing the reading with that produced by the thermal camera. A difference in the readings could be due to an incorrect Emissivity setting in the camera for the particular surface it is viewing.

There are simpme 'tricks' that enable a thermal camera to view targets that exceed the cameras maximum temperature, but they are crude and uncalibrated. I used such a method to view a gas burner head.

Some experimentation is required but here is an insight into what can be done simple.....

A thermal attenuators is just a material that does not provide 100% transmission of the thermal scene to the camera sensor. By this definition, all thermal camera lenses are attenuators ! I.e. They all introduce losses into the optical path. If we take that idea a step further, we can deliberately insert a material into the optical path that we know to have poor transmission in the LongWave thermal spectrum. The material does need to be of reasonable 'optical' quality though.

Polyolefin film, as used in consumer product shrink wrapping, is a decent material for the transmission of thermal energy. It is used as a simple thermal camera lens protector. It is available in various thicknesses and in the case of a lens protector, I recommend 12micron or 15micron for good transmission. As the thickness increases, the transmission decreases due to losses within the material. So we need to consider both the material and its thickness when making an attenuator.

I have successfully used a standard photographic Tiffen Haze filter on my E4 to view the gas appliance head and flame. The filter is made from optical glass that is not too thick and is NOT multi coated. Glass has very port transmission figures in the LW thermal spectrum but ir is not 0% transmission. It therefore acts as a large attenuation block in the optical path. It also acts as a lens protector if viewing boiling fluids such as oil.

As to gaining ant sort of decent temperature measurement.....that could be challenging. There are two approaches that could be used. Both have their error factors though !

1. Set up a test with a test target operating at the predicted temperature that will be observed when using the attenuator. Measure the target accurately with a thermocouple ot PT100 contact sensor. Observe the target using the thermal camera with the attenuator in place. Make a note of the temperature indicated on the camera. This is the temperature you should expect to see on target device if it has the same Emissivity as the test piece that was just used. The reverse process could be used. The target temperature could be measured with the camera and then the camera aimed at the test piece that has a contact temperature sensor fitted. The temperature of the test piece could then be adjust until the camera reads the same temperature as the target device. The true temperature may then be read off of the test piece.

2. A standard comparative calibration test could be carried out in order to produce a simple temperature conversion chart. A variable temperature test source is needed for this process. I would suggest that a variable temperature controlled soldering iron may be useful as a test source. Its bit should be Dull and not shiny. A really old and pitted bit is best ! This keeps the Emissivity reasonable. Unless the calibration of the so,dering iron display is trusted and reasonably ac irate for the free air temperature of the bit, a separate Thermocouple or PT100 temperature monitor should be attached to the bit.

TIP: if you do not own an old corroded soldering iron tip, you can buy Matt black high temperature exhaust system paint from a motor factors. Spray the shiny tip with this to form a decent Emissivity surface good to at least 600C. Some HT paints can offer higher temperatures but the soldering iron will 'top out' before 600C anyway ! You can get similar paint for cast iron stoves and BBQ's as well.

The test set up will involve pointing the thermal camera at the soldering iron bit without the attenuator fitted, followed by the use of the attenuator.

a) set the soldering iron to its lowest temperature setting and allow to stabilise. Check the temperature with a thermocouple or PT100 meter. Adjust the temperature control if required to provide a round number such as 200C. Measure the tip temperature using the thermal camer without an attenuator fitted. If the reading is not 200C, adjust the cameras Emissivity setting until it does provide a reading of 200C. We are trying to get the Emissivity setting of the camera to match that of the dull soldering iron tip. Avoid pointing the cameras measurement area at shiny parts of the soldering tip !


b) Create a table on paper with the following columns....

Target Temp actual
Target Temp TIC no attenuator
Target Temp TIC with attenuator

You need to decide on the resolution of your calibration table. I would suggest 10C steps but it is your choice. The temperatures are listed down the page, like so....

200C
210C
220C
230C
240C
250C

Etc.....

For each temperature you will enter the required heading data. First the targets temperature as measured by its calibrated display or a suitable contact temperature sensor. Then check the target temperature using the camera without the attenuator, followed by with the attenuator in front of the lens. Change the temperature of the target to the next incremental value and allow to stabilise. Repeat the readings at that temperature. Continue this process until the camera reaches its maximum capability without the attenuator. It will normal, indicate an over range situation. Beyond that, calibration of the camera is unknown. At this point, you can stop doing the camera without attenuator readings and just leave the attenuator in situ.

c) After all the required temperature steps have been documented you will have a reference chart that will enable the readings of the thermal camera to be checked against it and interpreted. Why did we test the camerawith no attenuator in place ? These cameras become less accurate at the extremes of the temperature ranges. It also gives you an indication of the attenuators effect on the readings as a confidence check that the camera is not producing a very non uniform measurement response with the attenuator in situ.

Now the bad news.... neither method detailed above is with out its limitations and inaccuracies. Emissivity of materials can change with temperature and the passband of the attenuator is unlikely to be flat. Hence why we cannot just determine an attenuation offset rather than individual comparisons to a known target at a known temperature. There are several other issues that can introduce errors in the readings, such as surface reflectivity and background ambient temperature, but I suspect Young can still achieve the desired accuracy by just using the above methods and setting the ambient or background temperature in the camera.

This is a time consuming process but the good news is that method b) would only need to be carried out once and then you have your temperature translation table for raw particular attenuator.

3. You can experiment with various smooth surface materials to assess their thermal spectrum attenuation capabilities. Very thin glass is a possibility. Glass cover slips for microscope slides could be tried. Various plastics are decent attenuators of thermal energy. They need not be transparent at visible light wavelengths ! ABS modelling plasticard could be tried as it comes in various thicknesses. Just consider anything relatively thin and these it by viewing a soldering iron or gas burner head through it. If you are lucky enough to have a plain wafer (unpopulated) of silicon that also works as a good attenuator at LW. Avoid metals, they will not work.

Finally, a word of caution. When observing a target that is emitting large amounts of thermal energy, it can start to heat the attenuator material and this will cause measurement accuracy issues. In industry, an air purge is used to maintain the temperature of the front window. This is why that is done. Suvh air purge systems are needed when observing furnaces and very hot targets in the steel industry.

Hope this helps

Fraser
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 01:48:11 pm by Fraser »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #172 on: December 22, 2017, 01:55:17 pm »
This thread showing my experiment with the Haze photographic Glass filter may be of interest to you as well......

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/range-extender-for-thermal-cameras-cheap-option-from-fraser/msg941515/#msg941515

Fraser
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline lwi004

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #173 on: December 22, 2017, 02:16:55 pm »
Wow Fraser, thanks for all of that!

We are using http://www.ttelectronics.com/resistors/parts/wdbr2t as a brake load for extreme circumstances and the possible desoldering of components near the board is the issue we are trying to ensure doesn't happen.

The element temperature in normal use can get to 365C  but as we are using it for extreme cases for short period, it will be higher. I got it to glow nicely which would mean around 700C at  a guess and I need to be careful of not damaging the overglaze as this would cause issue for my Dielectric.

SO I was basically trying to find a way of gauging how much above 260C I actually am to see where the limitations are and how different heat sinking / cooling / compounds affect this. You can see an image I took but at this stage, the element hadn't changed colour, so I could not tell if I was at 300 or 500C for example.

Will dig out my lens filters and see what I actually have handy!
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13165
  • Country: gb
Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #174 on: December 22, 2017, 02:46:43 pm »
Iwi004,

I see your problem ! Power electrics are an area where sadly I have little experience. If I were faced with such a task I would likely reach for my FLIR E60 (E40 upgraded) as that has a 650C top end. I would set it up on a tripod monitoring the power resistor and feed its radiometric output to FLIR ResearchIR 4 Max running on a PC. ResearchIR 4 Max provides temperature profiling so can provide a plot of the highest temperatures reached during a test. It can also record the whole test to the PC for later analysis, frame by frame if needed. I know this does not help you but this is how the problem would normally be tackled. Such an equipment setup would run to several thousand Dollars :(

In your case an E4 that is fitted with a suitable attenuator should work. You would be wise to coat the whole resistor and its soldered terminals with UHT paint though. This will provide a more even Emissivity for the test as the bright solder terminals have a very low emissivity so you are not seeing their true temperature when viewing the test of the PCB at a higher Emissivity.

If this is a safety related project, it might be worth developing it using your E4 camera and then hiring a more capable camera for final testing ?

Fraser
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 02:50:21 pm by Fraser »
If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf