Poll

Has the hackabiliy of the E4 made you buy one :  

Yes, I was already looking at the competition at a similar price, but the hack swung it to E4
274 (27.9%)
Yes, I'd not considered buying a TIC before, but 320x240 resolution at this price justifies it (as either tool or toy!)
444 (45.3%)
Yes, I was going to buy an E5/6/8 class of unit but will now get the E4
49 (5%)
No, but am looking out for a cheap i3 to hack
50 (5.1%)
Not yet, but probably will if now that a closed-box hack becomes is possible
164 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 803

Author Topic: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown  (Read 3770150 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #350 on: October 29, 2013, 05:39:19 pm »
Hard to tell as the anti-reflection coatings mean you can't tell much about the material.  The lens is pretty small, and I think single element - it is a slightly unusual shape in that the front is concave. Small  ge lenses aren' t hugely expensive I found some prices for Ge windows at £10 1-off , so volume prices for small lenses are likely to be in the low tens of pounds max. 
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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #351 on: October 29, 2013, 05:42:05 pm »
Quote
It would appear that FLIR have managed to reduce the manufacturing cost of the FPA (sensor), but we are uncertain as to whether the lens assembly has also been cost reduced in some way. I have presented a cheaper thermal camera lens that may have been used with the E4 FPA.

Flir reduced the manufacturing cost compared to what? You mean it's confirmed that the E4 has a different lens/sensor than the E8?
Compared to earlier devices. It is not currently known if the E8 has a bigger lens, but the better sensitivity spec suggests this may be the case.
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Online Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #352 on: October 29, 2013, 07:25:32 pm »
My comparison of FPA cost was relative to the type of "full fat" FPA fitted in my industrial FLIR PM695 thermal cameras. As you will see from the pictures of the sensor in this post

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-review/30/

my FPA is encased in a sturdy vacuum envelope and mounted on a rigid bearer. Lots of Gold plating as well. Its a significant size and a monster when compared to the newer 'cut down' design that FLIR have in the E4. Remember, my FLIR cost $40,000 and not $1,000 so manufacturing costs have likely been trimmed dramatically, even when compared to more recent FLIR designs.


Some care is needed when considering the cost of a Germanium lens. A Germanium lens is manufactured from a single crystal of Germanium which, in itself, is a very expensive material. The 'blank' is then cut with a diamond profiler to create the correct shape. The shaped blank is then polished into a lens. To perform well, the lens is then coated with expensive anti reflective coatings that directly effect the transmission performance of the finished lens. This process is far more expensive and complex than making a simple flat Germanium windows.  Such are not diamond cut and not coated unless specified. Saying all that, I have bought 20mm GaAs and ZnSe lenses from China for only $30  :-// I assume they need a similar production process to Ge but I am not certain and I know the coatings are not the same as they were designed for CO2 laser use which is relatively narrow band use.

Mike's referenced url states GBP150 for a 13mm ZnSe lens  :o  ZnSe is supposed to be the cheaper option !

http://www.crystran.co.uk/lenses/zinc-selenide-positive-lenses/130mm-x-280-mm-fl-pcx

http://www.crystran.co.uk/lenses/zinc-selenide-positive-lenses
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 08:39:51 pm by Aurora »
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Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #353 on: October 29, 2013, 09:37:13 pm »
Mike (and anyone else with an E4):

How useful would you estimate this particular camera is for taking images of PCBs, in enough detail to identify which components are getting warm (with or without the benefit of your recent work)?

For example: last year I borrowed an E60, which has a manual focus lens, and not only was I able to pick out individual 0603 components, but I could also easily see which components were active at any particular time. It would have been a really useful tool for finding out how a board's power dissipation is distributed, or for tracking down failed components on a faulty card.

Shame it's about £6000, though, and there's no way I'd get value for money from it. But £800 for an E4 is far easier to justify.

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #354 on: October 29, 2013, 09:48:25 pm »
Mike (and anyone else with an E4):

How useful would you estimate this particular camera is for taking images of PCBs, in enough detail to identify which components are getting warm (with or without the benefit of your recent work)?

Yes -
See pics on this post

The only issue at the moment is adjusting the lens for close-up focus -the lens can be adjusted without opening as it's only locked by the friction of the surrounding rubber, but it's a bit hard to grab hold of. 
 I am working on a tool to do this, as well as looking at using cheap laser cutter lenses
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 09:02:57 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline tnt

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #355 on: October 30, 2013, 09:07:15 am »
After finding the CRC01 algorithm, I had a look at the hidden menu, but so far I didn't really find where it can be enabled ... I'll probably look a bit more into it once I get the camera but if I don't get a break through soon, I'll leave it to someone else ... the serial method doesn't seem too inconvenient, you just need to remove the face plate and nothing else.
 

Offline nitroxide

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #356 on: October 30, 2013, 10:40:21 am »
After finding the CRC01 algorithm, I had a look at the hidden menu, but so far I didn't really find where it can be enabled ... I'll probably look a bit more into it once I get the camera but if I don't get a break through soon, I'll leave it to someone else ... the serial method doesn't seem too inconvenient, you just need to remove the face plate and nothing else.

If you use IDA, search for "2hiddenMenuRequested" in "facet_ui_qml.dll". You'll see that at the start of the sub_10078468 there's a compare with 0x10003; if it matches it enables the secret menu, otherwise it simply returns - I have no idea what that 0x10003 is...

I haven't found how and from where this "sub_10078468" is called but I'm sure that doing remote debugging on the actual device could teach us some more about it.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #357 on: October 30, 2013, 12:30:52 pm »
After finding the CRC01 algorithm, I had a look at the hidden menu, but so far I didn't really find where it can be enabled ... I'll probably look a bit more into it once I get the camera but if I don't get a break through soon, I'll leave it to someone else ... the serial method doesn't seem too inconvenient, you just need to remove the face plate and nothing else.

If you use IDA, search for "2hiddenMenuRequested" in "facet_ui_qml.dll". You'll see that at the start of the sub_10078468 there's a compare with 0x10003; if it matches it enables the secret menu, otherwise it simply returns - I have no idea what that 0x10003 is...

I haven't found how and from where this "sub_10078468" is called but I'm sure that doing remote debugging on the actual device could teach us some more about it.

For this sort of thing it would be handy to have a utility that would search for a binary string in a whole folder of files to find cross-references between DLLs. .EXEs etc. - anyone know of a good one?
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Offline mrflibble

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #358 on: October 30, 2013, 12:34:02 pm »
For this sort of thing it would be handy to have a utility that would search for a binary string in a whole folder of files to find cross-references between DLLs. .EXEs etc. - anyone know of a good one?

grep?  :-//
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #359 on: October 30, 2013, 12:35:48 pm »
If I had designed the unit I would probably have made the service menu enable when you point the camera at a special service barcode/QRcode.
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Offline tnt

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #360 on: October 30, 2013, 12:36:01 pm »
Looks to me like this function is used in a virtual table. If I had to guess I'd say the "KeyEvent" call back. R1 should be the QKeyEvent then and 0x10003 would be the key code ?
 

Offline nitroxide

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #361 on: October 30, 2013, 01:46:12 pm »
Looks to me like this function is used in a virtual table. If I had to guess I'd say the "KeyEvent" call back. R1 should be the QKeyEvent then and 0x10003 would be the key code ?

thought about that but found no reference about 0x10003 being a key - from bt.exe dissasembly I've seen that the keycodes have much lower hex values
 

Offline tnt

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #362 on: October 30, 2013, 01:47:48 pm »
thought about that but found no reference about 0x10003 being a key - from bt.exe dissasembly I've seen that the keycodes have much lower hex values

Interesting ... Because looking at the XML in ui.d, there is some keys and value associated to them and they are much higher values ... ( like 16777269 = 0x1000035 )
 

Offline nitroxide

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #363 on: October 30, 2013, 01:53:37 pm »
Quote
Interesting ... Because looking at the XML in ui.d, there is some keys and value associated to them and they are much higher values ... ( like 16777269 = 0x1000035 )

hmm, haven't looked at those keys defined in "design_ui_z3.xml"
 

Online bookaboo

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #364 on: October 30, 2013, 04:50:03 pm »
Bullet has been bitten... E4 ordered.
Any Flir reps reading should forward Mike a sales commission  :)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #365 on: October 30, 2013, 04:57:38 pm »
Bullet has been bitten... E4 ordered.
Any Flir reps reading should forward Mike a sales commission  :)
From traffic here and PMs alone , the current count is about six units so far....
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Offline ixfd64

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #366 on: October 30, 2013, 05:00:35 pm »
I keep getting a feeling that this thread alone will soon have a major impact on the thermal imaging industry. ;D

Offline cosmos

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #367 on: October 30, 2013, 05:08:05 pm »
E4count ++
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #368 on: October 30, 2013, 05:22:28 pm »
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Offline Mark_O

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #369 on: October 30, 2013, 05:46:54 pm »
For this sort of thing it would be handy to have a utility that would search for a binary string in a whole folder of files to find cross-references between DLLs. .EXEs etc. - anyone know of a good one?

010Editor is a good one, but it's not free.  Though you can run it for 30 days in a free-trial mode, with full functionality.

http://www.sweetscape.com/010editor/
 

Offline olsenn

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #370 on: October 30, 2013, 06:20:43 pm »
I'm still waiting to see if the E4 can fully become an E8 or if it has a different lens etc.

I could certainly have some fun with a thermal camera :)
 

Offline MFX

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #371 on: October 30, 2013, 06:29:46 pm »
Mike (and anyone else with an E4):

How useful would you estimate this particular camera is for taking images of PCBs, in enough detail to identify which components are getting warm (with or without the benefit of your recent work)?

Yes -
See pics on this post

The only issue at the moment is adjusting the lens for close-up focus -the lens can be adjusted without opening as it's only locked by the friction of the surrounding rubber, but it's a bit hard to grab hold of. 
 I am working on a tool to do this, as well as looking at using cheap laser cutter lenses

Looking at the moulding on the lens surround could you make a tool out of polymorph? Just soften it and push it against the lens surround.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #372 on: October 30, 2013, 07:01:05 pm »
Mike (and anyone else with an E4):

How useful would you estimate this particular camera is for taking images of PCBs, in enough detail to identify which components are getting warm (with or without the benefit of your recent work)?

Yes -
See pics on this post

The only issue at the moment is adjusting the lens for close-up focus -the lens can be adjusted without opening as it's only locked by the friction of the surrounding rubber, but it's a bit hard to grab hold of. 
 I am working on a tool to do this, as well as looking at using cheap laser cutter lenses

Looking at the moulding on the lens surround could you make a tool out of polymorph? Just soften it and push it against the lens surround.
Maybe - problem is it needs to be rigid enough to push against the outer ring, but hollow enough to not block too much field of view - currently looking at a PCB ring with pins.
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Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #373 on: October 30, 2013, 07:07:18 pm »
Could you perhaps make an adjustment tool out of some 'chemical metal' or similar:

- Wrap a layer of epoxy around a dowel of a suitable diameter
- (optionally) cover with cling film to prevent deposits from contaminating the lens
- press into the splined adjuster surrounding the lens and remove
- allow to harden
- trim to a convenient length


Online Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #374 on: October 30, 2013, 08:12:32 pm »
Mike,

You have mentioned the quality of the lens fitted in the E4. Can you explain a little more about why you believe it is not as good as that fitted in the E8. I know that the sensitivity specs differ a little but I am wondering if you have seen any other issues, such a distortion.

If the only issue is the sensitivity, I would not spend a lot of time replacing the lens as the E4 spec is respectable in that area.

I am fighting the urge to buy an E4 as I have the FLIR industrial units, but the design and lower weight of the E4 with 320x240 capability is very tempting. You have done some superb work on this camera and I am very pleased that you have potentially introduced many people to affordable thermal imaging at a decent resolution. You literally see the world differently when looking at it through a thermal camera. Your hack may actually create a demand for decent resolution at affordable prices that will encourage FLIR to consider whether selling a few for a lot of $ is as good as seller heaps for less $  :-//

The BBC are using thermal cameras in their wildlife programs these days and many watchers will be looking to do the same as it is far more convenient and effective than IR illumination and IR cameras.
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