Higher frame rate for Lepton?

[Ben321]

I noticed that the Lepton core has its own spec for frame rate of <9Hz. This isn't programmed into the microcontroller in the FLIR One. So I'm wondering is there a way to flash the firmware in the Lepton core itself, to enable a higher frame rate?

[Fraser]

Simple answer...... no.

Remember this core is carefully designed to meet Dual Use technology rules. Where do you expect to find the LEPTON core source code ?  without such, any reconfiguration of the LEPTON firmware would be a significant challenge. Also be aware that the LEPTON core contains non re-programmable PROM configuration memory.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Lepton 3 Block Diagram in case you have not seen it

Fraser

[Ben321]

Simple answer...... no.

Remember this core is carefully designed to meet Dual Use technology rules. Where do you expect to find the LEPTON core source code ?  without such, any reconfiguration of the LEPTON firmware would be a significant challenge. Also be aware that the LEPTON core contains non reprogrammal PROM configuration memory.

Fraser

Dual Use ITAR rules are only for selling overseas (and I think also there's something about not being an American citizen even if you are living in the US). There's no law though that says that Americans currently living in the US are not allowed to buy the full framerate thermal cameras or camera cores.

As for the PROM chip, is it uses proprietary (made in-house by FLIR)? If not, you could just desolder it, dump the data stored in the PROM chip to a computer with hardware designed for dumping PROM (this will let you reverse engineer the data stored in the PROM), buy a new PROM chip of the same type, and use a PROM programmer device to write modified data to the chip. Then just solder that newly programmed PROM chip back onto the Lepton's circuit board.

[mikeselectricstuff]

High framerate leptons do exist - it's obviously a firmware thing. The block diagram states the FW is in OTP memory so probably not readily updateable, even if you could figure out how.

When I was playing I did find they could be overclocked to some extent

[Ben321]

High framerate leptons do exist

Where do you get them? They aren't in FLIR One units. They aren't being sold on electronic component distributor websites like DigiKey. And even FLIR's own websit, which has FLIR One specs, does not state anything about there being a high framerate Lepton variant. How did you find out about them, and where can one be purchased?

[mikeselectricstuff]

AIUI they are only available to US companies offering to buy in decent volumes. When I was initially playing with them someone who was developing with them emailed me.
However aside form that it is totally obvious that they must exist - Flir would not put that much investment into development without maximising the possible market. They make all their other camera cores in high framerate versions so it would be odd for this not to be the case for Lepton.
The interface is also clearly capable of more bandwidth.

[Ben321]

AIUI they are only available to US companies offering to buy in decent volumes. When I was initially playing with them someone who was developing with them emailed me.
However aside form that it is totally obvious that they must exist - Flir would not put that much investment into development without maximising the possible market. They make all their other camera cores in high framerate versions so it would be odd for this not to be the case for Lepton.
The interface is also clearly capable of more bandwidth.

How did you initially find out that they had high framerate versions? Do you have "insider" connections in the FLIR company?

[mikeselectricstuff]

How did you initially find out that they had high framerate versions? Do you have "insider" connections in the FLIR company?

Like I said,
 

When I was initially playing with them someone who was developing with them (The high framerate ones) emailed me and mentioned it.

[Fraser]

Ben321,

Dual Use Technology rules are not just ITAR. The Wassenaar Agreement is current and in force. I do not recall saying FLIR cannot produce a higher frame rate LEPTON 3, only that they released a limited frame rate camera to meet their market needs. Of course high frame rate cameras are available in the USA .... plus many other countries. I can easily purchase a 60fps E60 camera in the UK. The limited frame rate makes cameras easier to sell on a large scale in the consumer market.

Some reading for you.....

http://www.wassenaar.org/


Have you actually looked at the FLIR ONE G2 physical design ? Your comments suggest not.

Have you reverse engineered a closed design firmware with no source code or 'inside' help ? Your comments suggest not.

Can FLIR configure a higher frame rate LEPTON 3 ? Yes they can. It is not difficult for them to do. It is all controlled in firmware.
FLIR have a clear marketing strategy and it is unlikely that they will wish to release a high frame rate budget camera core that has the potential to impact upon their higher frame rate platforms.

Fraser

[mikeselectricstuff]

FLIR have a clear marketing strategy and it is unlikely that they will wish to release a high frame rate budget camera core that has the potential to impact upon their higher frame rate platforms.

But on the other hand, for applications where size and weight is everything, like UAVs, Lepton potentially offers unique opportunities.

[Fraser]

Indeed Mike, and I would not be at all surprised if the wee Lepton Core is not already in use in some very unusual and specialist applications  The LEPTON platform has great potential. Better lenses would likely improve imaging performance and I have already been advised that the focusing of the lens at the factory can be a hit and miss affair. A little fine tuning of the LEPTON's lens can bring worthwhile improvement to the image that it produces. It will always be a somewhat compromised lens solution however. Silicon diffraction lenses are not wonderful performers.

Fraser

[cdev]

Is anybody else bothered by subjects like this here?

Just let it go..

[Fraser]

CDEV,

I have to agree.

I have a mix of high and low frame rate cameras and I find the lower frame rate cameras fine for most applications. The use in Drones or other fast moving mobile platforms does highlight the limitations of slower frame rate cameras, but in general ~9fps is pretty good in everyday use.

Fraser

[Ben321]

Is anybody else bothered by subjects like this here?

Just let it go..

How is it bad to talk about modifying your equipment to get the most out of it?

[Fraser]

Normally it is'nt..... but.......

You are raising a topic that has been discussed before and at length on this forum. The <9fps limitation placed on thermal cameras enables them to be shipped internationally without much/any red tape. The ITAR and Dual Use Technology rules are there for a reason. Asking how the <9fps limit may be removed from a thermal camera on a public international forum is asking for trouble, even if you live within the USA and are a USA citizen !

The upgrade to the FLIR E4 deliberately stopped short of frame rate improvement for the above reason. The frame rate limit is one area where upgrades stop being harmless fun by the hobbyists fraternity and drifts into the circumvention of government and international agreements. That is not a good topic for a public forum if the intention is to publicise 'hacks' or 'cracks' that breach government level DUT regulations.

Fraser

[mikeselectricstuff]

Normally it is'nt..... but.......

You are raising a topic that has been discussed before and at length on this forum. The <9fps limitation placed on thermal cameras enables them to be shipped internationally without much/any red tape. The ITAR and Dual Use Technology rules are there for a reason. Asking how the <9fps limit may be removed from a thermal camera on a public international forum is asking for trouble, even if you live within the USA and are a USA citizen !

The upgrade to the FLIR E4 deliberately stopped short of frame rate improvement for the above reason. The frame rate limit is one are where upgrades stop being harmless fun by the hobbyists fraternity and drifts into the circumvention of government and international agreements. That is not a good topic for a public forum if the intention is to publicise 'hacks' or 'cracks' that breach government level DUT regulations.

Fraser

Though it could be argued that this comes under the same category as researching and disclosing security vulnerabilities.
If a <9fps cam can be hacked, it exposes failings by the manufacturer to take sufficient steps to ensure compliance with the regulations they're being shipped under.

[cdev]

I think the entire arms sales business is a criminal enterprise of global scale. But its real, and a cogent argument can be made that anything that can reduce the availability of certain kinds of weapons to potential terrorists or even state actors like North Korea known to use these technologies in ways which can end up killing people, is a legitimate concern.

There are arguments which could be made against those restrictions once they become meaningless based on the availability of workarounds.

Surely we don't want to have an even more endemic problem with drones used in targeted assassinations than we have today with countries doing it.

Because that's what might happen.

--------

Things like this will lead, I think to a global standing down after some huge cataclysm. (if we survive it.)

We could prevent all of that by simply exercising common sense NOW.

[Bud]

Cdev, are you sure you got your facts right as to which country is killing people all over the world and which one is not?

[cdev]

I'm not going to engage in an argument that any remote automated killing by anybody is legitimate. The harder it is to do the better.

[OrBy]

30Hz units were spoken of here before - I believe tplogic.com offers thermal imaging sights based off the lepton in both 9Hz and 30Hz versions. Take a look at their T12 and T12-C lines. I would assume that if you lived in the right place and did the right paperwork you could purchase one and could harvest the module for your own uses.

[nidlaX]

30Hz units were spoken of here before - I believe tplogic.com offers thermal imaging sights based off the lepton in both 9Hz and 30Hz versions. Take a look at their T12 and T12-C lines. I would assume that if you lived in the right place and did the right paperwork you could purchase one and could harvest the module for your own uses.

Oh, I just assumed the Torrey Pines units were 9Hz. 30Hz versions make a lot more sense.

[Ben321]

Theoretically, if the company is following the ITAR law, the low-framerate version will be hardcoded for 9hz in a way that can't be changed by the end user. For example, it could be etched into silicon, so that it can't be reprogrammed. If it can be changed by the end user, then it is the thermal imager manufacturer (not people who discuss it online) that has broken the law. The mere act of discussing how to get around certain safeguards in equipment isn't a crime in itself (at least not in the US, because of freedom of speech). The only exception to this is people who work in government or military, who are legally obligated to keep certain information (classified info) out of the hands of the public. If there is a way to modify the lepton, I don't believe it's been been marked classified.

Even if it can be modified, because the manufacturer didn't put in place the correct safeguards, all that means is that the manufacturer broke the law. If I then modify it, I'm not breaking the law, because I'm a US citizen living in the US. However, after such a modification, it becomes my legal obligation to NOT export it to anybody outside the US (and also may be illegal to sell it to anybody in the US who's not a US citizen). There is no legal obligation however, at all, for me to avoid discussing the topic on the internet. If, for example, I had knowledge (which I don't actually) of how to modify it to get full 30Hz frame rate, there is no law that forbids me from posting such information on the internet. Such a law would be a violation of my first amendment right to free speech. The only crime would be if I posted it with the intent to help enemies of the US, which would be an act of treason. Spreading info to cause harm is illegal, while spreading info for the sake of simply educating others on a topic is not illegal. Intent is the key.

[hendorog]

Why not just buy three 9Hz cameras, offset each the master clocks by multiples of 120 degrees and combine the images digitally.

[hendorog]

Why not just buy three 9Hz cameras, offset each the master clocks by multiples of 120 degrees and combine the images digitally.

Their angles are gonna be slightly different, and hence there will be quite some imaging error.
While it can be digitally corrected, the images will not look very nice due to the pixel numbers are low.
Perspective correction will stretch and compress some pixels, so effectively it's a resampling algorithm. To get high quality output, input pixel should be higher than non corrected image for the same output quality.

True - but with 'enough' distance to subject the error would become negligible?

And even if you can get that done properly, how do you guarantee shutter speed? You need the shutter speed to be faster than 27fps to prevent blurring, otherwise you won't get true 27fps.

Good point. The extra frame rate could still be used to increase the resolution I guess.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why not just buy three 9Hz cameras, offset each the master clocks by multiples of 120 degrees and combine the images digitally.

Integration time - chances are you'd get a lot of overlap between images

[Fraser]

Blueskull,

Russia has signed up to the Wassennar Arrangement.
China tends to use ULIS Microbolometers that are made in France. That may effect who the Chinese OEM's will sell to. Neither China nor Russia are actually considered enemies of the West. We have our disagreements at the Government level and Russia invading Ukraine has understandably caused issues. They are still not our enemy however.

Fraser

[-jeffB]

Even if it can be modified, because the manufacturer didn't put in place the correct safeguards, all that means is that the manufacturer broke the law. If I then modify it, I'm not breaking the law, because I'm a US citizen living in the US. However, after such a modification, it becomes my legal obligation to NOT export it to anybody outside the US (and also may be illegal to sell it to anybody in the US who's not a US citizen). There is no legal obligation however, at all, for me to avoid discussing the topic on the internet. If, for example, I had knowledge (which I don't actually) of how to modify it to get full 30Hz frame rate, there is no law that forbids me from posting such information on the internet. Such a law would be a violation of my first amendment right to free speech. The only crime would be if I posted it with the intent to help enemies of the US, which would be an act of treason. Spreading info to cause harm is illegal, while spreading info for the sake of simply educating others on a topic is not illegal. Intent is the key.

So, suppose you're right, and there's no law preventing you from developing and disseminating such a patch. You do so, secure in your Constitutional rights, or some such. What happens next?

If the powers that be go after FLIR for failing to lock down their modules, the very first thing they'll have to do is stop selling them. That might not sink the company entirely, but it would mean no more FLIR modules at any frame rate for you or anyone else until they come up with a fix.

If they do come up with a fix, they're likely to lock down any other "hackable" settings as well, one of the things we've feared about the Ex series.

Oh, and by the way, I'm pretty sure that the FLIR user agreement expressly forbids any attempt to reverse-engineer or modify the internal workings of the device. You may or may not agree with the legality of such agreements, but they give FLIR a legal opening to come after you, directly, and maybe to come after EEVblog as an accessory. So far, FLIR hasn't been aggressive about pursuing that avenue. If someone came up with a mod that brought the US government down on FLIR's head, do you think they'd be so forbearing in the future?

It's a bad idea. It's such a bad idea that the entire community of independent, free-thinking, extremely smart, and not-terribly-impressed-with-ITAR engineers and enthusiasts here have all refrained from going there.

You might be right, and everybody else wrong. You might have thought this all the way through, where nobody else has. I don't think that's the way the smart money would bet, though.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The mere act of discussing how to get around certain safeguards in equipment isn't a crime in itself

I'm not sure that's the case - ITAR covers documentation as well as products, though I don't know if this only covers disclosure by the manufacturers, or by anyone.
 

(at least not in the US, because of freedom of speech).

If the DMCA can override this, I'd be surprised if export restrictions weren't also exempt from FOS
 

[Ben321]

The mere act of discussing how to get around certain safeguards in equipment isn't a crime in itself

I'm not sure that's the case - ITAR covers documentation as well as products, though I don't know if this only covers disclosure by the manufacturers, or by anyone.

Documentation is officially released descriptions of a device's capabilities. I'm pretty sure that whatever ITAR-covered docs that a manufacturer has, can't legally be disseminated by either them or the end user. But discussing a bug (which probably isn't even documented or known to FLIR) isn't disseminating documentation. If it's a bug discovered by the end user, there's no law the prevents online discussion of that bug, because the online discussion of that bug isn't "documentation". A bug is not a spec or capability of a device, so discussion of it isn't formal documentation. Notice that this forum doesn't have any layout of tables or charts or other organized grouping of facts about the device. It's just a set of paragraphs of text written by various users, which is the textual equivalent of having a conversation with somebody. The US government doesn't (and can't legally, because of the constitution) prevent 2 or more people from holding a conversation on any topic.

[Ben321]

Want to get some high FPS cameras? Look for something from a non-western friendly country which doesn't give a shit to US ITAR, such as China and Russia.

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=546722588126
http://rusoptics.com/?module=catalog&action=viewproduct&id=355

The first one is a 25Hz 384*288 design, the second one is of same resolution and refreshed at 30Hz.

And stepping up the price, here is a Chinese 33Hz, 640*512 IR camera. Not cheap though.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=527428300256

Thanks for the idea. A US company (company who's headquarters is in the US) is held to US laws. A company that exists outside the US is not held to US laws. A Chinese company has no obligation to fill out ITAR paperwork prior to selling a thermal imager to another country, while a US company does have to fill out ITAR paperwork prior to making that sale. Of course the US government also has the right to refuse to do business with that company (not buy any equipment from them), and theoretically even put trade sanctions on any country (not allow any imports or exports from that country) that allows their companies to operate in a way that the US government doesn't like, but the US government doesn't have the authority to put trade sanctions on a single company (only on the entire country that that company operates in, which would effect ALL companies in that country).

So your idea of buying from China or Russia, who's companies are under no legal obligation to avoid selling thermal imagers to countries that the US doesn't want them sold to (because US law jurisdiction does not extend to other sovereign nations), is a GREAT IDEA! Problem is navigating their sites, and making the purchase could be REALLY TOUGH, if they don't have English language websites.

[Ben321]

And let's say you've managed to hack it, US DOC can easily ban the export or even manufacturing of Flir Lepton. For the sake of every thermal imaging fan, if you find a good way of hacking it, stay quiet and stay low.

All they'd have to do would be to hardwire the frame rate (and that may already be the case). Frame rate configuration could be etched directly into silicon on the controller chip. After the US govt notified FLIR, it probably could have a fixed version out in about a month. Also I think the US has only ever put restrictions on cameras that were designed to have the frame rate changed, and don't ban manufacture of devices that take considerable effort to modify, because technically ANYTHING can be hacked with enough effort. And keep in mind, that high frame rate devices are still perfectly legal to sell in the US, so even if the US govt did crack down, the most that they would demand from FLIR is that they stop shipping the Lepton to countries outside the US. Most likely in such a situation though, as with other 30Hz thermal cores/cameras, if the purchaser does live outside the US, the purchaser is required to send in ITAR documents to FLIR indicating ITAR compliance by the end user, and then you can still buy it even if you live outside the US (with the exception of a few enemy nations like Iran and North Korea). Buying ITAR restricted devices only means this extra bit of a couple documents to fill out which isn't too much of a burden (they can usually be filled out on your computer and emailed to FLIR or whoever the manufacturer is for the camera you are trying to buy).

Has there ever been a documented case of a thermal imager that was intended to be 9Hz only, but was then modified by an end user for higher frame rate, and then in response the US government ordered the manufacturer to stop selling the device, or even put in place any kind of restrictions on its sale?

[Ben321]

The Russian site is in English. Forget about the Chinese site. I just tried to access it from US. While not under ITAR control by US, it's under Chinese similar export control.

That being said, there are always buyer agents and reshippers in case you want one, and if you don't tell them, no one knows it's export controlled. You do need a VPN to bypass Taobao's IP blocking otherwise those controlled goods' web pages will be just 404.

I'm able to access https://world.taobao.com/item/527428300256.htm?fromSite=main without a VPN. However this one https://world.taobao.com/item/546722588126.htm?fromSite=main gives this error

??

(It seems that the forum dosn't support Chinese characters, as they all got turned into smileys, and in the editor here they are now question marks)

Which Google translate says means

According to the laws and regulations or platform policy of the host country, this item is subject to purchase.

So basically I would need to fill out paperwork that are China's equivalent to the US ITAR compliance paperwork, in order to buy this item.

As for the Russian one http://rusoptics.com/?module=catalog&action=viewproduct&id=355 it costs $3000 which is only slightly cheaper than the FLIR Vue 640x480 30Hz camera https://www.adorama.com/fliv6401330.html at $3199.
At that price, I might as well buy the FLIR one, as it is a known company that makes very good quality products. FLIR is basically synonymous with thermal/LWIR imagers.

[Ben321]

It says due to laws and regulations of host country, this item is restricted to buy. In China, restricted is just a tactful way to say forbidden.

Does that mean you can't even fill out paperwork and buy it, like China is refusing to sell it to the US completely?

And stepping up the price, here is a Chinese 33Hz, 640*512 IR camera. Not cheap though.
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=527428300256

Not expensive at all. I recognize that symbol on the price "¥" and it is the JPY (Japanese yen). So that means the price is 49999 JPY, not $49999. In fact, as the JPY is approximately equal to 1/100th of the USD, that would make the price approximately $500. That's actually VERY CHEAP for a thermal imager in the 640x480 category.

[hendorog]

Why not just buy three 9Hz cameras, offset each the master clocks by multiples of 120 degrees and combine the images digitally.

Integration time - chances are you'd get a lot of overlap between images

Trying to get my head around this, to me they seem to be saying the time constant is about same between 9Hz and 30Hz cameras:
http://flir.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/236/related/1

And here they are saying that the time constant covers integration time, shutter speed and exposure:
http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=1136&view=35726

To my untrained (and FLIR lacking) eyes it looks like it would actually work.

Standing by for a beating with a clue stick...   

[Bill W]

This 12ms is the pixel time constant, the time to reach 1/e of the new steady state temperature from a change.  (VOx is slower than ASi, but unlikely to notice it visually).

The integration time ('exposure') is more to do with sampling the pixel resistance into the readout circuit.  Would have to be be in the microseconds on a QVGA/VGA resolution sensor being read out line by line, but on a smaller sensor could be quite long or even oversampled to reduce noise.

Obviously all you need to do is to finish reading the whole sensor before you you need to start again, so a 60 line sensor at 9Hz could be nearly 2ms integration time. 

In a Wassenaar compliant reduced frame rate camera there is nothing to say HOW you reduce frame rate, just that you must not present more than 9 images a second to the user.  You could scan slowly or scan fast and just sit doing nothing in between.

Not all 'low rate' cameras are run at 9Hz by the way, many video based systems are 8.3Hz or 7.5Hz, but that is another story.

Bill

[Bill W]

The mere act of discussing how to get around certain safeguards in equipment isn't a crime in itself

I'm not sure that's the case - ITAR covers documentation as well as products, though I don't know if this only covers disclosure by the manufacturers, or by anyone.

not ITAR, Wassenaar covers this one:

http://www.wassenaar.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/List-of-Dual-Use-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Corr.pdf
Relevant clause is 6 D 3 c on page 129
- 'software' to enable circumvention of a 9Hz limit on a camera is itself export controlled.  So putting any hack information on the internet is likely to be exporting from your home country as you have no control over the servers involved, and so would apply to anyone in a Wassenaar signatory country.

Bill

[CatalinaWOW]

Whatever you personally think of the regulators (Wassenaar, ITAR) and whether the regulations they promulgate are good are bad, they are quite serious about it.  I have been personally involved in a product that was exported that some felt crossed the appropriate lines.  Being called for questioning into closed rooms in the bowels of large non-descript buildings with threats of real unpleasantness if things went the wrong way was terribly unpleasant.  Something any sane person would go to some lengths to avoid.

Think very carefully before you decide it is important enough to you to go through your personal version of this experience.  Which would undoubtedly be more unpleasant since we had documentation showing that we were trying to be in compliance and in fact did comply with the letter of the law, though some did not agree with that interpretation.  You would go into such discussions having gone on public record that you were looking for ways around the laws.

[-jeffB]

All they'd have to do would be to hardwire the frame rate (and that may already be the case). Frame rate configuration could be etched directly into silicon on the controller chip. After the US govt notified FLIR, it probably could have a fixed version out in about a month.

Spoken like someone who's spent years in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. 

Do you really think that, in a month, FLIR could:

• design the modifications to hardwire the refresh rate instead of loading it as a config param
• verify the firmware changes to support this
• verify and tape out the modified layout
• fabricate the new silicon
• assemble new test units using the new silicon
• run a complete test suite on the new units
• get the new parts up to full production
• assemble, package and distribute the new units

...oh, yeah, and reclaim all the existing units from their various sales and distribution channels, and destroy them in an accountable way that will satisfy the authorities. Don't forget that.

[mikeselectricstuff]

All they'd have to do would be to hardwire the frame rate (and that may already be the case). Frame rate configuration could be etched directly into silicon on the controller chip. After the US govt notified FLIR, it probably could have a fixed version out in about a month.

Spoken like someone who's spent years in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. 

Do you really think that, in a month, FLIR could:

• design the modifications to hardwire the refresh rate instead of loading it as a config param
• verify the firmware changes to support this
• verify and tape out the modified layout
• fabricate the new silicon
• assemble new test units using the new silicon
• run a complete test suite on the new units
• get the new parts up to full production
• assemble, package and distribute the new units

...oh, yeah, and reclaim all the existing units from their various sales and distribution channels, and destroy them in an accountable way that will satisfy the authorities. Don't forget that.

The info available suggests that the firmware is in OTP, so assuming it was real OTP, and not flash with a write-once feature that could be bypassed, any hack would probably exploit some weakeness, which could most likely be fixed with updated firmware.

[Bud]

Some potentially useful information can be found in this discussion:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/flir-lepton/jelgkPBxcmo

it has a link to a Lepton 2 SDK at the bottom. I am not qualified though to say how useful it may be, to a knowledgeable programmer perhaps at least it may help understand the device capabilities, including possibility of changing the frame rate.

[Ben321]

The mere act of discussing how to get around certain safeguards in equipment isn't a crime in itself

I'm not sure that's the case - ITAR covers documentation as well as products, though I don't know if this only covers disclosure by the manufacturers, or by anyone.

not ITAR, Wassenaar covers this one:

http://www.wassenaar.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/List-of-Dual-Use-Goods-and-Technologies-and-Munitions-List-Corr.pdf
Relevant clause is 6 D 3 c on page 129
- 'software' to enable circumvention of a 9Hz limit on a camera is itself export controlled.  So putting any hack information on the internet is likely to be exporting from your home country as you have no control over the servers involved, and so would apply to anyone in a Wassenaar signatory country.

Bill

Actually this doesn't cover descriptions of such software, only the software itself. Therefore, the loophole in the law here is this: If you know how to circumvent the 9Hz limit on a given camera, do NOT distribute your hacked firmware. Instead provide info describing in detail how your hack works. Provide enough detailed info that the hacked firmware can be created independently by anybody who reads your description, but don't distribute your copy of the hack, only the information on how to create the hack. Wassenaar does NOT prohibit distributing such information. Nor does ITAR. Until the US writes up a new law that would criminalize the sharing of such information, discussing such a hack is 100% legal.

[amyk]

That reminds me of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_investigation

[Fraser]

I have my doubts about your theory Ben321.

If I write a detailed book on how to build an improvised explosive device, I will likely get a visit from the police.

If I provide TECHNICAL detail in public of how to circumvent the frame rate limitation I am in contravention of the DUT regulations that control all technical aspects of the technology including publication of technical information. I would expect a document detailing the theory of how to circumvent the frame rate limit to be considered technical information by its very nature.

Put it this way.... do you want to be the legal test case ? I certainly do not.

To put this topic to bed from my perspective..... the LEPTON is a miniature module of high integration and is far harder to 'hack' than a conventional, larger scale, thermal camera core. Anyone wanting to hack such a highly integrated module is, IMHO, both brave and a Masochist !

Fraser

[CatalinaWOW]

Actually this doesn't cover descriptions of such software, only the software itself. Therefore, the loophole in the law here is this: If you know how to circumvent the 9Hz limit on a given camera, do NOT distribute your hacked firmware. Instead provide info describing in detail how your hack works. Provide enough detailed info that the hacked firmware can be created independently by anybody who reads your description, but don't distribute your copy of the hack, only the information on how to create the hack. Wassenaar does NOT prohibit distributing such information. Nor does ITAR. Until the US writes up a new law that would criminalize the sharing of such information, discussing such a hack is 100% legal.

As I said earlier the folks trying to control dissemination of these technologies are quite serious.  And at least as inventive in finding legal justifications for their actions as you are.  You really need to want to fight this battle and be willing to suffer the possible consequences.  There might actually not be such consequences, depending on luck, the particular toes you are stepping on and any number of other factors, but the risk is real.

I have better things to do, and better ways to prove my technical prowess, but your mileage may vary.

[hendorog]

We need a sticky to warn people that certain subjects will rapidly degenerate into a discussion of legal consequences (valid or not) - and so are just not worth the effort:

* Anything to do with flying FPV
* Anything to do with household power
* FLIR hacking
* ?

[Fraser]

Hendorog,

Your list is inaccurate.

No one has said hacking a FLIR is an issue.... many of us do that.

Hacking the frame rate of a FLIR is an issue due to the reasons for it being limited in the first place. The frame rate is just one element in the world of thermal camera hacking. The favourite hacks are still increased  resolution and additional Menu options. There is nothing legally challenging in those areas as they are not governed by international DUT restrictions

If these subjects were not raised in posts such as this, and others, people would not understand why members of this forum are not trying to circumvent the <9fps limit. I have no issue with Ben321 raising such questions. He just will not get the answers he wants from me, that is all.

At the end of the day, this is a friendly discussion that may be enlightening to some readers. As such it is good healthy activity on this technical forum.

No one got hurt and that is what matters

Fraser

[hendorog]

Your list is inaccurate.

No one has said hacking a FLIR is an issue.... many of us do that.

Hacking the frame rate of a FLIR is an issue due to the reasons for it being limited in the first place.

Yes you are correct - it should have been FLIR frame rate hacking...

[CatalinaWOW]

We need a sticky to warn people that certain subjects will rapidly degenerate into a discussion of legal consequences (valid or not) - and so are just not worth the effort:

* Anything to do with flying FPV
* Anything to do with household power
* FLIR hacking
* ?

I understand your point, and would add CAT ratings on meters to the list.

Having been bitten somewhat painfully on the ITAR subject in this general technology area I am sensitive, and really don't want someone else to go through that without understanding the course they are on.  My point isn't really a legal opinion, because the pain I went through was actually from doing something that even the pain inducers agreed was legal in the end.  Just pointing out an area where there are dogs that both bark and bite, sometimes without justification.   

I would in no way stop someone from doing something they feel strongly about.  It is just like working with dangerous voltages.  More power to you if you realize what you are getting into.

[hendorog]

We need a sticky to warn people that certain subjects will rapidly degenerate into a discussion of legal consequences (valid or not) - and so are just not worth the effort:

* Anything to do with flying FPV
* Anything to do with household power
* FLIR hacking
* ?

I understand your point, and would add CAT ratings on meters to the list.

Having been bitten somewhat painfully on the ITAR subject in this general technology area I am sensitive, and really don't want someone else to go through that without understanding the course they are on.  My point isn't really a legal opinion, because the pain I went through was actually from doing something that even the pain inducers agreed was legal in the end.  Just pointing out an area where there are dogs that both bark and bite, sometimes without justification.   

I would in no way stop someone from doing something they feel strongly about.  It is just like working with dangerous voltages.  More power to you if you realize what you are getting into.

Thanks and totally agree, CAT ratings another subject to avoid

It's just the natural way these subjects seem to go.

Also just for the record I wasn't criticising anyone - your ITAR interaction certainly made interesting reading and Fraser is basically Mr Lepton around here amongst other shadowy things he has alluded to

[Fraser]

Please do not consider me an authority on the Lepton or any thermal camera really. I have just used and repaired a lot of thermal cameras, so learned about them along the way.  I have also been given some very helpful insights into the designs, and technology used, from friends within the thermal camera manufacturing industry. When able, I share some of that knowledge here.

Fraser

[-jeffB]

It is just like working with dangerous voltages.  More power to you if you realize what you are getting into.

I agree, but I might have chosen different phrasing. 

[david_geng]

why not take off the asic and fly wire for reverse engineering the signals and then make a circuit to do what ever you like. just a thought. 

[Fraser]

It would be simpler to buy a microbolometer from ULIS and build your own camera that way

[David1234]

I have overclocked the Lepton 2, 2.5 and 3 to get slightly faster frame rates. The issue isn't the frame rate for me though. My issue is that they actually have a significant delay programmed in to them. In other words, not only are these cameras 9Hz, the frames are delayed about a half second or more.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I have overclocked the Lepton 2, 2.5 and 3 to get slightly faster frame rates. The issue isn't the frame rate for me though. My issue is that they actually have a significant delay programmed in to them. In other words, not only are these cameras 9Hz, the frames are delayed about a half second or more.

That delay is probably the signal processing rather than any intentional crippling. AFAIK export controls make no mention of latency so there is no reason to intentionally increase lag. Also any delay needs memory to store images, so it adds cost. It is possible there is some configuration to set the tradeoff between power consumption and processing speed.

[David1234]

I have overclocked the Lepton 2, 2.5 and 3 to get slightly faster frame rates. The issue isn't the frame rate for me though. My issue is that they actually have a significant delay programmed in to them. In other words, not only are these cameras 9Hz, the frames are delayed about a half second or more.

That delay is probably the signal processing rather than any intentional crippling. AFAIK export controls make no mention of latency so there is no reason to intentionally increase lag. Also any delay needs memory to store images, so it adds cost. It is possible there is some configuration to set the tradeoff between power consumption and processing speed.

There shouldn't be any delay on my end. I process the signal with an FPGA and display valid pixels immediately when they are marked valid by the lepton. I'm also giving it a 150% clock rate. The only way to really verify your theory is to play with their 30Hz version, if they even exist, and compare the lag. I can't find them for sale anywhere though...

[mikeselectricstuff]

I have overclocked the Lepton 2, 2.5 and 3 to get slightly faster frame rates. The issue isn't the frame rate for me though. My issue is that they actually have a significant delay programmed in to them. In other words, not only are these cameras 9Hz, the frames are delayed about a half second or more.

That delay is probably the signal processing rather than any intentional crippling. AFAIK export controls make no mention of latency so there is no reason to intentionally increase lag. Also any delay needs memory to store images, so it adds cost. It is possible there is some configuration to set the tradeoff between power consumption and processing speed.

There shouldn't be any delay on my end. I process the signal with an FPGA and display valid pixels immediately when they are marked valid by the lepton. I'm also giving it a 150% clock rate. The only way to really verify your theory is to play with their 30Hz version, if they even exist, and compare the lag. I can't find them for sale anywhere though...

Lepton will be doing significant processing internally to make the data look pretty - that's where the lag will be coming from.
30fps Leptons do exist, but aren't available for general sale.

[frozenfrogz]

http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?view=35781

Is an export license required for Tau2, Quark2 thermal imaging cameras?

Yes, except if the video frame rate is factory set to be less than 9 frames per second (fps). For FLIR OEM cameras that would otherwise have a 30 fps rate, the reduced frame rate is achieved by replicating one frame four times for NTSC (30 divided by 4 = 7.5 fps) or three times for PAL (25 divided by 3 = 8.33 fps). FLIR refers to this configuration as "slow video". Note that slow video frames are not averaged, rather, each frame is simply replicated either three or four times in succession, depending on whether the camera is set for PAL or NTSC.

You can easily buy 30fps thermal cameras within the EU.

https://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/thermal-infrared-resources/shipping-export-restrictions/

[David1234]

Lepton will be doing significant processing internally to make the data look pretty - that's where the lag will be coming from.
30fps Leptons do exist, but aren't available for general sale.

Do you know where can I buy them from and what steps I need to take to be eligible to buy them? I'm willing to do a decent amount of work to be eligible to buy them. I don't want to buy them in bulk though, just to realize they still have that lag.

-David

[Fraser]

The only way to obtain such a core is to contact FLIR direct.

You will need a business proposition and commitment to purchase in large quantities. Less than 100 pieces and I doubt they will even want to discuss the matter.

FLIR were quite reserved when it came to supplying even the Lepton2 core. The Group Get team managed to persuade FLIR to sell to them in batches of 100 cores. As a large manufacturing company, FLIR are not really into individual Lepton core sales. Samples are not normally given away unless attached to a very large order.
They tend to sell via either Group Gets or the large electronic component trade suppliers like Digi-Key.

I doubt you will be able to get your hands on a Lepton 3 30fps core. Sorry it is not better news.

Fraser

[frozenfrogz]

You can order them via Digikey or am I mistaken?

Edit: Sorry, I saw it is only 9Hz after posting :/

[mikeselectricstuff]

The 30fps core has been a round a while - I imagine there must be some products using it - anyone know any ?
( though probably too expensive to harvest modules from)

[Fraser]

Here.....

http://tplogic.com/thermal-solutions/t12/

http://tplogic.com/thermal-solutions/thermal-imager-t12-c/

Torrey Pines Logic can provide rifle sights using a Lepton running at 30fps.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Interestingly, the 'K2' budget Fire Fighting thermal camera that uses a Lepton3 core is the 9fps version.Fire Fighting cameras tend to be the higher frame rate of either 30fps or 60fps due to the need fro fast movement.

http://www.flir.com/fire/k2/

I would have expected FLIR to offer a 30fps version of the K2 for domestic markets and licenced export. The K45 and above are 60fps Fire Fighting cameras.

http://www.flir.com/fire/display/?id=60239


Torrey Pines Logic make a Fire Fighting version of their Lepton based rifle sight but no frame rate is stated in the brochure.

http://tplogic.com/thermal-solutions/firefighting/

http://tplogic.com/V2/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/T12_F.pdf

Fraser

[Fraser]

The TPL T12 30fps model costs £759 in the UK !

https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/thermal-imaging/hand-held/torrey-pines-t12-w-30hz-mini/

Fraser

[Uho]

I did an upgrade T10-M . He has 30 Hz on the lepton base. It's just a toy. On such a base it is very difficult to make a good thermal imager.
https://youtu.be/gUOvAg0dGxY

[Vipitis]

Hey Boris,

I have been following your work for a little and I would really love to build something myself.

I got a cat S60 phone which has the Lepton 2 and basically acts like an old flir one.

Parts of your scope appear to be 3D printed, would you mind sharing your designs? In terms of parts used(lenses) and measurements for distances etc?

[Uho]

Hey Boris,

I have been following your work for a little and I would really love to build something myself.

I got a cat S60 phone which has the Lepton 2 and basically acts like an old flir one.

Parts of your scope appear to be 3D printed, would you mind sharing your designs? In terms of parts used(lenses) and measurements for distances etc?

Unfortunately I do not have works for cat S60 phone. Only a macro lens can be made to it. Any telephoto lens requires accurate alignment. It is technically very difficult to make it for cat S60.