How many thermal camera experimenters have we on here ? Interested in parts ?

[firehopper]

I found a flir one for android on ebay, currently waiting for them to ship, its been 7 days since I bought it, if they dont ship in the next 3 or 4 days I will go and file a claim, its not super expensive but at $189 + 10 shipping its far too much to write off. never mind, after waiting for nearly 8 days for it to ship, (claiming paypal hasnt released the funds yet) they gave me a refund. so now no camera. I'll still get a flir one if I can, but have to wait for more money first. so yeah no flir joy for me.

[lefedor]

Hi, want just mention on Your post I've made test assembly with such set (BMW cam+ecu), was able to start camera.
Have sniffed CAN bus messages and there nothing very secretive - just ignition and front light enabling messages, now waiting second set to check arduino version and also check if video output of one camera will processed by another camera ecu (so not encrypted and may be able to run without ECU).

Was aiming to reverse engeneering sensor communication to achieve cheap thermal imager, but i'm partly giving up seeng even cheaper seek thermal pro alternatives - its mostly worth just for fun now (partly) and, may be in theoretical option to overclock sensor to 60Hz declared in specs.

[Fraser]

Very interesting.

I look forward to hearing how you get on with this.

Fraser

[CatalinaWOW]

I have interest in this technology, but have many competing interests and so don't know how much money or time I would dedicate to it.  I have come close to pulling the trigger on some ex-firefighter equipment on a couple of occasions, but just haven't quite reached the threshold.  Same thing for the Agilent/Keysight stuff on Ebay.

Part of that may come from professional experience, which completely sated the gee-whiz, that looks neat in infrared aspect.  Now it is more of a desire to have a useful, but relatively expensive tool in the tool box.  So far my use cases have not demanded that I spend the money, but in all likelihood the opportunity and the inclination will come together someday.  Seek and its brethren seem just a bit too limited for my purposes.

The motivation to use as a tool affects the decision about whether to buy for repair or not.  Learning and fixing things is always fascinating, but if the path doesn't lead to a viable tool in the end it doesn't meet the eventual need and subtracts dollars from that application.

Long ramble, but may give you some insight into one corner of the interest.

[amyk]

Hi, want just mention on Your post I've made test assembly with such set (BMW cam+ecu), was able to start camera.
Have sniffed CAN bus messages and there nothing very secretive - just ignition and front light enabling messages, now waiting second set to check arduino version and also check if video output of one camera will processed by another camera ecu (so not encrypted and may be able to run without ECU).

Was aiming to reverse engeneering sensor communication to achieve cheap thermal imager, but i'm partly giving up seeng even cheaper seek thermal pro alternatives - its mostly worth just for fun now (partly) and, may be in theoretical option to overclock sensor to 60Hz declared in specs.

Leave it to the Russian hackers to figure it out

[Ultrapurple]

I'd like it to be put on record that I'm interested in tinkering with IR cameras, although I can't hold a candle to Fraser. I have a weakness for buying them. I'm hoping to get hold of a decent resolution MWIR camera sometime, but have more than enough LWIR cameras for the time being.

[Fraser]

I bought a couple  of ex fire fighter SCOTT Eagle X compact thermal cameras last week. They caught my eye as I was interested in the core that resides within them. Another voyage of exploration for me to undertake and enjoy. They cost me £117 each plus postage etc.

Thanks to Mike I also have one of the FLIR Autoliv car cameras and it's ECU in my collection. There was little chance of ever getting it working according to those I spoke to at FLIR, but maybe that will change some day. The Autoliv camera system is supposed to be robustly protected. Whether that is actually true Has yet to be proven.

Fraser

[Bruno28]

Im interested. Im still a novice here in thermal cameras. But like them enough that I already have 3 in my collection and waiting for a seek compact XR I got on eBay for quite cheap.

[agate]

Hello,
I did design control around this type of bolometers.  I can share some design info if you still interested.

[Fraser]

Yes please.

PM sent 

Fraser

[Bicurico]

Fraser, I am not doing any offer on your possible future sales, as my budget would be insulting to you and you certainly will be able to sell your items at a good price.

But still, posting this to add my interest in these devices.

Regards,
Vitor

[Fraser]

Vitor,

This is now a pretty old thread. I was originally wanting to see how much interest there was in thermal cameras and cores as I, and others that I  know had quite a lot of stock of such. I was 'testing the water' to see if a reasonable market existed within the forum membership.
Sadly thermal imaging cameras are quite a niche topic and it appeared that there was little appetite for DIY thermal cameras using cores and parts of other cameras. People seemed to want 'turn key' solutions. That is fine though.

I have an awful lot of thermal imaging equipment and may well list some of it on the forum, but, to be honest, there has not been a lot of interest shown in buying the expensive models that I mainly own. People are buying the FLIR ONE G2, SEEK, Therm App and Thermal Expert cameras rather than professional grade cameras from circa 2000 to 2010.

There is also the issue of ITAR. Many of my cameras contain ITAR controlled Raytheon Cores so I cannot ship them overseas. I am resigned to likely not recovering much of my investment in my thermal camera collection, should I decide to sell it.

Thanks for indicating your interest though. I will keep you in mind if I want to re-home a decent camera at a nice wallet friendly price for you.

Fraser

[Bicurico]

Thanks!

ROI is always critical when collecting industrial/professional equipment as a hobby.
We know how much it is worth, we know how much they retail and how much companies spend on it.
However, reselling the hobby collection for a reasonable price is difficult as companies don't purchase from hobby collectors and amateurs don't value the equipment.

This is why I never tried to sell any of my field meter...

Regards,
Vitor

[Philipp23]

Hello. Fraser
Just stumbled over this thread and my question might be a bit of topic. I'm in the need for a thermal camera that will be mainly used for thermal observation of circuit boards. Do you know a good camera for this purpose that does not cost to much? Maybe there is something in your big stock. I'm not afraid of DIY as long as don't need to write any programs or code. I can get a Seek Compact Pro for very little money, but the reviews here on the eevblog are not very positive. Or do you think that the Seek is a good starting point given the fact that I can get it for under one third of the retail price.

Kind Regards
Phil

[Fraser]

A SEEK thermal Pro for less than 1/3 of retail is a good deal.

The SEEK does have issues with quite high noise levels in the images but at that price and for PCB use it is adequate.

The venerable E4 is excellent when upgraded to 320x240 pixel resolution but the 2017 model is resisting efforts to upgrade it. Used ones that are pre 2017 may still be upgraded.

The Keysight factory shop on eBay was selling very nice U5855A cameras for $620 and they are worth considering if they are still available.

I cannot recommend the new FLIR ONE Gen 3 series as the standard model is only 80x60 pixels and the FLIR One G3 Pro is overpriced !

The Therm-App and Thermal Expert offerings are worth considering but a bit more expensive. That said, they produce very nice images.

As an entry into PCB thermal imaging where there is usually decent dealt T present, the SEEK Pro could be a good choice.

Fraser

[frenky]

Perhaps Flir One Gen2 (previous version) from Ebay would be ok and cheap too... 160x120 for about 150$ is pretty good.

[Fraser]

Frenky,

Indeed. I am being a bit careful about recommending the Gen 2 camera though. The presence of large numbers of faulty cameras is worrying. Some just need the simple reset method I detailed, whilst others have physical faults that need repair.

I do not have a clear picture of failure rates, but I have never before seen so many faulty thermal cameras,  of one particular model, on eBay and at IT recyclers. They are uneconomic to repair commercially so end up as scrap on eBay etc. They are a good source of working Lepton 3 cores but I have yet to find a reasonably priced development board for the Lepton 3 that outputs composite video.

The FLIR One Gen 2 appears to contain a defects that occur without provocation. FLIR have not commented on this or supplied revised firmware. I own many of them now. My original G2 purchases are fine but of the 5 that I bought as faulty only 3 could be revived by a hard reset. The battery connector is total rubbish and a liability. That may be the cause of the units crashing.

Fraser

[capt bullshot]

Hi Fraser
I've seen your original port is rather old, but the thread popped up again.

So I own a simple Seek Reveal (not pro) and yes, it's a nice toy but when things get serious, you reveal its limits quite fast.
So I'm interested in buying a used professional thermal camera somewhen, like the fully working FLIR PM 5xx or 6xx series you mentioned. The bugdet I'm willing to spend is limited to the lower end of ebay prices you mentioned (rather $1000 than $3000), or even less if the unit is in a bad state, but still usable or repairable without special thermal camera knowledge. At the moment it isn't important enough to me to watch ebay listings or something alike, but If I had the opportunity to buy one, I might go for it.
I'm not interested in parts to build a camara, or modifying the "optical" (thermal) part. The unit I'm thinking of should be useable standalone and I'd go for 320x240 resolution, and should provide essential features the Seek Reveal doesn't (like settable upper and lower temperature for the display palette, not limited to auto scaling, a suitable manual focus range for PCB closeups)

[frenky]

@Fraser:

I see your point. On ebay there really is a lot of defective FlirOne Gen2 modules...

Ok I take back my recommendation of the old FlirOne. 

[Fraser]

Capt Bullshot,

Whilst I have the advanced cameras that you mention, and might sell one within your budget, there is a significant problem.

The FLIR PM series cameras are 320 x 240 pixels 60fps and contain Military grade Microbolometers. As such they are subject to ITAR, having been made in the USA with US technology. It is not permitted to send these cameras across national boarders without a licence. Such a licence is not simple to obtain. You would need to obtain such a camera within your own country.

I bought a FLIR E40 recently and upgraded it to E60 spec. Great price and great performance

Fraser

[capt bullshot]

Fraser,

thanks for the info about these regulations, I'm not aware of such things, and I don't expect you to get such a licence just to sell a camera to me on a budget, neither I'll bother with that.
So I'll continue looking out here in my country occasionally and continue reading your posts here for tips.

[Chanc3]

Fraser, as a retailer of fast frame cameras, there are permitted states you can sell to without a licence. You need a signed consignee statement from the buyer and you must vet them on their requirement for it.

[Fraser]

Chanc3,

Hmmmm I am very friendly with the US authorities involved in ITAR and it appeared that shipping an ITAR controlled technology thermal camera was fraught with issues. The PM series cameras contain a Raytheon large format 320 x 240 pixel fast microbolometer that is specifically identified under ITAR as a controlled component requiring a licence to ship across international borders. The status of that microbolometer may have changed over the years but at one time it was serious military technology that was heavily controlled. FLIR could only sell them to proven friendly and vetted organisations.

1. I am not a commercial company approved to sell ITAR controlled equipment across boarders.

2. I have no means to check the true identity of an overseas buyer or their nationality.

3. I am held responsible if I ship to a person deemed inappropriate to hold the ITAR Controlled technology

4. I have to advise the appropriate US trade department and FLIR of the sale and shipment details.

For $1000, it is not worth the hassle in my case. The risks are all Owned by me. Get it wrong and I am the one up on charges for supplying the 'enemy' with ITAR controlled technology. No thank you.

[razberik]

Perhaps local pickup in personal ?
You both Fraser and Cpt. Bullshot are within EU.

[Bicurico]

The problem that Fraser has is not the shipping or delivery of the item, but being responsible for whoever ends up with the device at the end.
Also, I believe that Fraser is located in the UK.

Anyway, it is pretty interesting to read about real issues with reselling specialized test equipment.

Common people never think about the fact that there are products being produced, that may NOT be exported to given countries, etc.

I remember living in West-Germany and it was forbidden to sell/offer a Commodore Amiga 500 to East-Germans, because this computer contained a Motorola 68000 CPU, which was considered good enough for missile guiding systems!

I imagine that thermal cameras can be used for missile targeting systems, too, hence why these products are controlled. Sounds stupid but imagine Fraser sells one of his military grade cameras to a unknown person without all the propper paperwork. That person now sells the camera on, without ANY reflection, as his name is not on the line, and in the end of the chain, the camera ends up in some obscure pro-war, pro-nuke country! Imagine the device is intercepted by the CIA and traced back to Fraser. I know - this is phantasy or is it?

Same goes btw. for top range spectrum analyser and other test equipment.

Also, SEM microscopes are controlled, as they allow reverse engineering of crypto protection.

The list goes on. Fascinating stuff!

Cheers,
Vitor