How many thermal camera experimenters have we on here ? Interested in parts ?

[Fraser]

Thanks Victor,

You are right. It is not that I want to be awkward, but selling ITAR controlled cameras and components can be quite scary. The US authorities seem quite happy to chase those who breach their laws and the UK will happily extradite wrong doers to the US for trial.

Under President Trump I could get myself a life ban from visiting the USA as a minimum 

Fraser

[lukier]

Imagine the device is intercepted by the CIA and traced back to Fraser. I know - this is phantasy or is it?

That is an interesting question. From various threads I vaguely remember that some of Fraser's cameras were eBay scores. Do random sellers and recyclers do the ITAR paperwork? I highly doubt it in most cases. I guess that the paper trail was broken long ago before Fraser bought the camera.

For example this one, 640x480, surely must be a controlled item: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/182792165736

[razberik]

How can by Fraser sure that if he sells some sensitive item to some British person that this person doesn't sell it further beyond controlled border ?

[Fraser]

I am permitted to sell my camera to a UK national in the UK. I would transfer ownership to the buyer. This act removes me from the responsibility of not shipping the unit outside the UK without appropriate paperwork and authority. My ownership is legal. If a future owner decides to break the rules, it is they who will have to answer for their actions and not me. I am not selling weapons that require a licence to own so selling is not an issue provided I obey the rules.

Buying on eBay is a very mixed bag. Many US based eBay sellers will not ship anything relating to thermal cameras outside the USA. That frustratingly includes lenses accessories etc. SPi make this very clear on their auction pages. EBay now warns bidders of the ITAR regulations on many thermal camera auctions. When you try to bid, you get a warning about controlled technology that you have to acknowledge.

Some eBay sellers care not a jot about ITAR and others even try to claim that a Thermal Camera is not covered by ITAR by quoting the regulations for simple night vision sights ! Daft blighters 

If someone decides to ship a high resolution, high frame rate thermal camera across borders, they are committing the breach of regulations and not the recipient. The sender take responsibility for what they ship.

It is a fact that many ITAR and Dual Use Technology auctions take place on eBay and I have not seen any taken down due to complaints from the US BIS. Many of the sellers will ship overseas without any thought about regulations.

[CatalinaWOW]

I think Fraser is taking a very rational approach.  Even in cases where he is selling something totally legitimate the powers that be can be very persistent in forcing you to come up with appropriate documentation and also interpretation of things which may be perceived as grey areas.  Given his background and expertise I am reasonably certain that he would be shown correct in the end, but he has better things to do with his time than discussing these issues with unfriendly people.

[capt bullshot]

These regulations are an interesting topic, never thought about what kind of legal issues this places on the seller. It's not in my intention to cause such potential trouble just to buy an interesting piece of technology. I won't ask anyone to break the these rules intentionally.

[Ultrapurple]

Kudos to Fraser for setting out so clearly the basic position on dual-use gear. I have occasionally been asked to sign paperwork relating to the import of thermal imaging kit. The most recent required me to specify the planned use and agree not to re-export the device. I'll have to check whether it also said I had to impose these same conditions on anyone I sold it to.

I have travelled to some interesting places overseas carrying a thermal camera and accessories as a private individual. I've usually carried non-ITAR gear and the paperwork to prove it, though I've never been asked to produce it. On at least one occasion I was frankly terrified at the international border that there would be some awkward questions to answer but we were just waved through along with all the other tourists. On another occasion when I was making touristy thermal images of a place I knew the authorities were twitchy about (but photography was definitely permitted) I could see out of the corner of my eyes that several armed, uniformed men were converging on me from different directions. I thought it politic to put the camera away sharpish (but not too quickly) and get back on the tour bus as though I hadn't noticed anything. To the best of my knowledge these remain the only published thermal images of that place.

[Fraser]

With regard to travelling with a ITAR/DUT controlled thermal cameras, I have not heard of anyone being given any Regulations related trouble at ports of exit and entry. I have heard of people having to explain to officers exactly what the unusual looking camera is, and what it us used for. Most port officers would not be that familiar with various thermal camera shapes etc. The pistol grip design of some modern thermal cameras can attract some attention, especially if used in public. We live in sad times where anything unusual or weapon-like in appearance can cause a stir with police and security officers.

I spoke to a member of the NEC AVIO thermal camera UK team and one of their clients regularly travelled around the world with an ITAR controlled thermal camera. Apparently he never had any problems doing so but the NEC team did warn him that he was effectively breaching the regulations. I suppose as the camera remained in the guys possession and was not left in another country, it was not such an issue. Any likely the interested authorities are totally unaware of such movements of the technology in hand baggage.

However...... it takes just one over-zealous official at a port of exit or entry, who knows about thermal cameras and the regulations, and life could get very complicated, very quickly !

In all honesty, the ITAR and DUT regulations are there for a specific purpose..... to stop the provision of certain capable technologies to countries that are considered a significant military threat to the USA or Europe. North Korea comes to mind at the moment ! The regulations make it possible to intercept illegal shipments and to pursue any company breaching the regulations. I very much doubt the US authorities will get too concerned about the private sale of one controlled technology thermal camera that moves between USA friendly countries. I personally do not want to risk such though.


Fraser