How many thermal camera experimenters have we on here ? Interested in parts ?

[Fraser]

Don't get too excited, this is an early days question.

As some may know, I am a user and collector of thermal cameras of various ages and formats. This forum is becoming a great source of information and hopefully meeting place of like minds.

Thermal imaging cameras have historically been shrouded in mystery when it came to in depth detail of their inner workings. ITAR regulations protected much useful technical information and this made/makes life hard for a thermal imaging repairer or experimenter, like myself.

I have quite a collection of thermal imaging cameras, both working and projects awaiting my attention. There may also be a source of new thermal camera parts coming on line in the near future, but I can say no more about that at this time.

So how many members of this forum are interested in experimenting with thermal camera technology, speak up and identify yourselves I already know of a few like minded individuals.

In the future, there may be some industrial grade thermal cameras and parts available to purchase. Some may be from me, and others from an alternate source known to me.

By way of research and in light of recent budget thermal camera releases from the likes of FLIR, SEEK, OPGAL and other suppliers, who would be interested in buying the following items and what sort of budget constraints would you apply when considering purchase.......

1. Complete working, high performance FLIR PM 5xx or 6xx series camera with 320 X 240 60fps temperature stabilised microbolometer. These were around $56K new and sell on eBay for anything between $1K and $3K.

2. Ex fire brigade cameras such as the Argus 1 (Pyrovidicon), Argus 2 (Solid state BST 320 X 240 30fps) or ISG Talisman Wasp (Solid state BST 320 X 240 30fps) various physical and operational conditions.

3. Automotive thermal night vision made by Raytheon for Cadillac. These are fully automatic thermal cameras with composite video output. (320 X 240 30fps or maybe 60fps I forget)

4. Solid State BST modules with 320 X 240 pixels and 30fps (maybe 60fps) and composite output. Limited connection information to get them running. No lens.

5. Professional Germanium lenses for use with modules such as above, or other Long Wave thermal cores. Normal fields of view as opposed to telephoto or wide angle

6 'Project' firefighting camera boards such as the BST imaging modules, control, video overlay modules, small CRT displays, no chassis or cases.

7. Maybe chassis from firefighting cameras with or without the protective shells and needing assembly from parts. A sort of thermal camera DIY kit.

8. Military long range thermal camera with modification details to get it displaying its image via composite video. Easy project.

9. Superb condition Bosch 'Metal Mickey' dual tech PTZ camera as deployed to Iraq in the Gulf War. This unit looks unissued. Unit contains X36 optical zoom visible light camera and high performance non zoom 320x240 pixel thermal camera. Weatherproof, with sun shades and wiper assembly fitted.

10. Similar to above but made by Ganz. Again, superb condition.


At this time I am just trying to establish how much interest there may be in this type of kit. It is not your average FLIR consumer type equipment. Most are 320 X 240 pixels microbolometer with frame rates of either 30 or 60fps. as such they are regulated by ITAR as suitable for military use.

I may decide to reduce my collection of 45 thermal cameras and there is the chance of providing project cameras and parts to those who wish to experiment with the technology rather than buying a 'turn key' camera.

Let me know what you think folks but please do not ask me for specific model numbers etc at this time as this is just an early days post seeking to establish what, if any interest there is in such technology on this forum.

eBay is the alternative but as many know, prices can go orbital on eBay for such technology. This MAY end up as a chance in a lifetime to buy high spec thermal camera.kit at a price your budget permits. Do not expect a FLIR PM 695 for £100 though ....... It isn't going to happen.

Looking forward to hearing from all you thermal camera fans out there.

Fraser

[retrolefty]

Looking forward to hearing from all you thermal camera fans out there.

 I posted to follow this thread as I'm a thermal camera wantabe but only if there is a DIY path for under $100 as I have no justification and many other project ideas.

[encryptededdy]

I may like some wide aperture lenses to jerry rig onto my Therm-App, however I realise that due to it's small-ish (relative to older cameras) 384x288 17um sensor size, those "Normal FOV" lenses you have probably become telephotos on the Therm-App, which isn't optimal.

[Brumby]

Looking forward to hearing from all you thermal camera fans out there.

 I posted to follow this thread as I'm a thermal camera wantabe but only if there is a DIY path for under $100 as I have no justification .....

Much the same here - but I wonder about export to Australia...

[apelly]

Interested. But export. Sigh.

Didn't I see a thread here a while ago (year or more ago?) about some European firm with their own tech? Thus able to deliver a decent frame rate outside the US? I remember a youtube vid.

[cynfab]

Fraser,
You know I'm interested in mucking around with any or all of that list

[frenky]

I'm also interested but my max budget is about 200€...

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

[artag]

Interested. Generally in small parts / cheap experiments but occasionally tempted by something special.

[Bill W]

4 - Posted by: apelly
« on: Today at 01:49:38 PM »

>>Interested. But export. Sigh.<<

As Fraser is in the UK, then I would expect UK/EU rules will apply, not US ones.  While the UK rules should be fine with exporting to NZ, it could be a heap of (virtual) paperwork for an individual to export these kind of items to NZ.



regards
Bill

[Fraser]

@encryptededdy,

You raise an interesting point that may actually be an advantage to some users.

If we talke a hypothetical case and sat a lens has 24 degrees FOV when illuminating a 20mm microbolometer. When used on a 10mm microbolometer, it becomes a 12 degree FOV lens or near enough anyway. So you effectively get a cheap X2 telephoto lens if you add a ZnSe close up lens you have a thermal x2 microscope of course, the greater the difference between the original microbolometer dimensions and the new smaller type, the greater the magnification produced. Imagine using the above lens on a LEPTON sized microbolometer !  A X4 microscope could be a possibility. I will need to find out the original microbolometer dimensions as the reference point. Large lenses also provide good sensitivity . From memory the lens assemblies have a 25mm diameter. Compare that to the SEEK or  FLIR E4 lenses Real germanium instead of GASIR too.

The wildlife observers might also appreciate a larger, higher quality lens assembly with magnification over the standard lens. It would just need a lens mount adapter. I have to odd a flipping tear X2 telescope to my PM6xx series to get a 12 Degree FOV for wildlife work. I would love even greater magnification but have yet to get that sorted. Calibration error matters not a lot when a thermal camera is used to observe wildlife. Of course, adding a different lens can/will effect the calibration slightly but simple tests will provide the offset that needs to be applied to readings.

You've got me thinking now. I want to upgrade my second E4 camera with a bigger lens....... I may go for image madnification as well so I will have a thermal microscope on hand.

Thanks for raising this 'issue' of different sensor sizes. Just like CCTV of courts where it is perfectly acceptable to use a lens designed for a 1/2" CCD on a 1/3" CCD camera. You just get a smaller FOV. Of course, the inverse causes vignetting.

Fraser

[Chanc3]

As I work for a fairly large thermography company in the UK and have a great deal of interest in the subject, I am always game for any testing/modifications.

I myself have successfully repaired our PM695 (with the aid of Fraser of course) and I may have to attempt another repair again, due to a different fault. I've also created a very basic program for this camera that enables me to control the camera remotely (with the aid of a custom cable and camera commands). I've also replaced the entire body of the P6xx series camera.

I've also got some good links within the industry, so I will help where possible.

I haven't forgotten about those batteries yet, Fraser! Just need clearance to let them go.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

[marshallh]

I have long been interested in the Cadillac/mercedes night vision systems for my car. I drive through lots of deer-infested areas - have had some close shaves, though luckily all under 30mph. They usually are coming up the side and crossing the road. But the issue with those seems to be the lens, not the thermal core.

[Fraser]

@Marshallh,

The Mercedes is active Infra red illumination with an IR sensitive conventional camera. As such it is not that effective in fog, snow or dust storm conditions.

The Cadillac Deville was fitted with two versions of Raytheon thermal camera. They are designated as Type 1 and Type 2.

Both types use a lens protector to prevent damage from stones. The lens is safely located behind the protection window but can suffer corrosion if the protector is ruptured and not replaced in a reasonable period of time.

The type 1 has a design issue that sadly means that if the protector is ruptured, water can not only get on the lens sitting behind but also the sensitive electronics and BST sensor. Very bad news in most cases.

The type 2 camera uses a fully sealed optical block and the electronics do not suffer water ingress even if the lens protector is absent.

I would avoid a type 1 camera that has a cracked or shattered lens protector. It is almost certainly corroded inside. The Type 2 with a cracked or shattered lens protector is still a decent risk as the lens is pretty robust. A new lens protector can be hard to find though. It is a thin piece of Germanium and no longer available as a spare part from Cadillac. It also cost $400 as a spare which is in itself prohibitive to buy from a dealer.

The type 1 camera may be identified by its oval lens housing and it does not have a user replaceable lens protector, unlike the type 2.

The BST Raytheon sensor is decent quality but the chopper wheel membrane can deteriorate due to age. It can be repaired though.

If I could afford one, I would buy a FLIR Pathfinder or Tau for automotive applications as they are lovely cameras.

In theory a FLIR F1G2 could be modified to act as an automotive thermal camera. It would need to be modified to external power and a mobile phone used for the display, connected using a long USB extension cable. I would modify the F1G2 to take its power from the USB cable. To make the camera weatherproof it would need to sit in an enclosure with a thermal camera window in the front.

Fraser

[marshallh]

Thanks for the info Fraser. I looked a bit more and surprisingly late model BMWs have a similar system - except it is more compact and readily available for slightly less than the old Caddy units. Appears to only use a 4 pin connector, so possibly analog video. Have you had any expeirence with these? BMW being what they are they could be locked out and only power on with a cryptographic signature. But what appears to be 320x240, 30hz video with a bit better tone mapping than the older ones is pretty tempting.

I have thought some about something like a Thermapp 30hz, but I'm not sure about their longevity and operation under extreme conditions (it gets -10F here in the winter to 110F in the summer). 9hz is barely usable at highway speeds unfortunately

[Brumby]

[Brumby]

A bit of looking around suggest they are using the Flir PathFindIR.

Sensor Type		320 x 240 Uncooled Microbolometer
Field-of-View		24° (h) x 18° (v)
Spectral Band		8-14 microns (LWIR)
Sealed Design		IP69 rated, hermetically sealed providing extra insurance in all weather conditions
Outputs		NTSC

[encryptededdy]

I have thought some about something like a Thermapp 30hz, but I'm not sure about their longevity and operation under extreme conditions (it gets -10F here in the winter to 110F in the summer). 9hz is barely usable at highway speeds unfortunately

Minor correction but the Therm-App HZ is actually only 25Hz, not 30.

[encryptededdy]

I have long been interested in the Cadillac/Mercedes night vision systems for my car.

Have you considered the FLIR Vue line of cameras (meant for Drones)?

You can get them with 336x256 resolution and a variety of lenses for $1699 USD. They also do 60Hz(!). Analog output only though (but I guess that's what most car monitors accept), but you can customize pallets, regions of interest (for AGC) and digital detail enhancement all over the USB port.

The 640x480 version is also available for $3199, which is perhaps as cheap as you'll get in a 640x480 thermal camera.

Operating temp range is    -20°C to +50°C (nonoperating -55°C to +95°C) so should work fine. It's based on the Tau2 core that Fraser mentioned, but at a much cheaper price (but you lose the 14bit digital output and temp calibration, but I don't think you'll need those features).

[Fraser]

@marshallh

Sadly the latest BMW and Audi Autoliv cameras were very careful designed by FLIR to meet ITAR regulations for international shipping without lots of paperwork. It is the most locked down thermal camera that I have seen.

I am limited in what I can say about the protection but it is well known that the camera is married to its original control unit, which in turn is married to the original cars central CAN controller. Any error in the camera or controllers security handshaking can cause a security lock out in the camera hardware. It is not a simple lock-out and was intended to render the microbolometer and ROUC permanently inoperative. Some have asked whether the firmware can be hacked. Doing so is likely to cause the above lock-down condition.

Mike did a video on these cameras that may be found on this forum and his You tube channel.

The earlier BMW Autoliv cameras were standard FLIR PathfindIR units with composite video output. These are very rare to find and cost a lot of money though. All the ones you see on eBay these days are the newer protected version with digital I/O. Useful only for their lenses or as a paperweight.

The one exception to this rule is someone wanting to attach a BMW camera to another BMW of the same model. There are adaption boxes that fool the security ID checks to accept the cars CAN controller ID in spite of it being the wrong VIN.

Fraser

[firehopper]

I am interested, and as a newbie to thermal cameras, dont have lots of money for one, was looking at a flir one for android, thats my max budget basically

[Bill W]

The relevant export control exemption for cameras in vehicles is as follows (from public source):

The camera is specially designed for installation into a civilian passenger land vehicle and having all of the following:
1. The placement and configuration of the camera within the vehicle are solely to assist the driver in the safe operation of the vehicle;
2. Is only operable when installed in any of the following:
       a. The civilian passenger land vehicle for which it was intended and the vehicle weighs less than 4,500 kg (gross vehicle weight);
       or
       b. A specially designed, authorized maintenance test facility;
and
3. Incorporates an active mechanism that forces the camera not to function when it is removed from the vehicle for which it was
intended.

I would expect some form of proof would be provided to the authorities to meet test 3.  It suggests that the 'any BMW will do' situation is sailing close to the wind, it should be linked to VIN and/or other system level serial numbers.

Bill

[tsaG]

Hi,

I just found this part of the forum and I thought that maybe it would be interisting to hear about a project Im on.

Im on a student project called REXUS/BEXUS ( Rocket Experiments for University Students, and Balloons  ). Our Group is called UB-FIRE (University of Bremen Fire Research Expirement).

We're on board of mentioned rocket and do some research on flame propogation.

We're using a TAU 2 640 Core with the thermal capture Module to monitor the flame propogation of 5 PMMA (Plexiglas) samples in combustion chambers. This will happen at about 100km height with forced convection.

The camera is mounted to a stepper motor mounted within a small rocket module.

You can find a VR rendering of our assembly here:
http://ub-fire.de/VR/VR.html

We do have a website but I didnt have the time to keep it up to date : http://ub-fire.de/
Or you can check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ubfire.rexus1920/


If you are interested I can give you some more information about this project

I attached a picture of our module without the finalized wiring, a (actual ;-)) screenshot and the camera.

-Patrick

[madmaxbryan]

I have a weird fascination with seeing what cant be seen, and thermal cameras fit that obsession. I have 2 projects i have been playing with but due to ITAR i haven't been able share any info on this site and the projects have kinda been pushed aside. One project involves a 640X480 17um microbolometer, but until i learn to program FPGA's to generate the clock signal i cant do much with it either. I also have a few lenses for a long range thermal camera that i want to explore.

[Galenbo]

... It is not your average FLIR consumer type equipment. Most are 320 X 240 pixels microbolometer with frame rates of either 30 or 60fps. as such they are regulated by ITAR as suitable for military use.

Yes, send me some, i want to launch automatic missiles to Turkish/Russian/Israeli/USA/German/Chinese planes above me (country depends on my radicalisation-of-the-day)

Or connect it to pan/tilt/fire my full-automatic machine gun above my front door.

:-)

[Fraser]

Some interesting replies in this thread.

It is apparent that experimentation with thermal imaging cores and cameras is still in its embryonic stages for members of the EE and hobbyist community.

This is no great surprise to me as such technology has historically been hard to source at wallet friendly prices and within ITAR regulations that restrict shipping. Times are changing though and affordable <9fps thermal cameras are now available. Such are very different to even the 1990's pro user thermal cameras though. Pro cameras have superb optics, sensors and build quality.

For anyone wanting to get their teeth into decent thermal imaging cameras on a budget, there is much to be said for buying industrial or ex fire brigade technology on the secondary market. Sadly for the hobbyist, even ex fire brigade cameras are still not exactly cheap in pocket money terms. It is still quite an expensive specialism to get into when compared to conventional CCTV cameras or Digital Photography. Sadly that is just the nature of the beast, its lower volumes of production and associated rarity.

I will keep this thread updated on the availability of thermal cameras and parts as and when able. The modules and boards for thermal cameras are still being assessed and sorted by another party so I can make no promises on when they will be made available or pricing.

With regard to selling cameras from my own extensive collection, I may be willing to sell some that I several examples of but sadly most are not exactly Hobbyist budget friendly. I do have some Talisman Wasp project cameras that may become available to buy but they are presently in need of attention and I have yet to decide whether to sell them 'as-is' or repair them first. They are obviously worth more when working perfectly. It's all about spare time for me at the moment.

This thread was started with the intention of establishing who on this forum shares my interest in thermal camera technology, both in terms of wanting parts and complete 'turn key' solutions. I will keep monitoring responses but it is apparent that numbers of such persons on this forum are indeed limited.

I am always happy to discuss thermal imaging with those with an interest in such. My main uses are PCB inspection and wildlife monitoring (not hunting).

Also happy to discuss faults on FLIR industrial thermal cameras as that is where most of my repair experience exists.

With regard to me carrying out repairs on thermal cameras........

This is an area into which I have not previously entered. I have always repaired thermal cameras as part of my self education on the technology used and for personal enjoyment. I have the required knowledge and skills but have not used them for commercial gain to date.

Having watched many of the videos produced by Louis Rossmann on You Tube, I am considering whether I want to get into the commercial thermal camera repair arena. It would be a very foreign environment for an Ex Civil Servant so, for now, I am sticking to repairing thermal cameras for myself and maybe the odd forum member who asks for my help. My time is precious to me so I do need to be careful how I spend it

Fraser