EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: Bruno28 on July 17, 2017, 12:48:35 pm
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Hello,
I'm looking for a new camera to add to my arsenal. Damn these things are expensive but loads of fun.
I was looking at a few posts such as the U5855A keysighr. But also have an Argus 4 that I got offered.
The U5855A is about $520usd and the Argus 4 is about $1100. Both second hand.
Is it worth spending double for that Argus 4? It's a bigger and better resolution camera. Also very bulky. But very resistant.
Maybe Fraser can help me decide. :)
Share your thoughts please
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One option could also be the Flir E4 and hacking it in to the full 320x240 resolution of the E8
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One option could also be the Flir E4 and hacking it in to the full 320x240 resolution of the E8
But the E4 is a bit more? Any well priced second hand E4 around?
And would have to be the older e4 that is upgradable? Are they that good of a camera?
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It costs 745€ on Farnell brand new.
Tho the one we got had a slightly new firmware on it so the hack works but causes the new features introduced in the new firmware to be buggy.
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Bruno28.
I own the ARGUS 4 -160 and the ARGUS 4 -HR320.
As you will know, they are designed for fire fighting. As such they are deliberately fully automatic and have limited fasciitis. Image quality is excellent. They are not the best choice for general work.
The Keysight cameras use the same A-Si imaging sensor technology but also provide manual focus plus lots of measuring capabilities. The U5855A is a 160 x 120 pixel camera so the ARGUS 4 -HR320 does provide clearer images with its 320 x 240 pixel sensor array.
The ARGUS 4 series also has some great options like Wi-Fi and IP camera operation, but these are expensive to buy. I have the Wi-Fi optional module but will be converting a battery pack to provide the Ethernet IP camera capability and external power input. It makes a great surveillance camera :)
The FLIR E4 was a good option at Round $700 as it could be upgraded to full 320 x 240 resolution plus additional menus. With the release of the latest 2017 revisio, such is currently no longer possible.
Fraser
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Thanks for the help.
Comparing the image quality of the Argus 4 vs E4 upgraded...are they the same at 320x240?
Which would you go for if similar priced?
Where can I find an E4 for $700? This is the cheapest place I found. $844usd.
https://www.buydig.com/mobile/product/FLIRE4/FLIR-E4-Infrared-Camera-w-80x60-IR-Resolution-MSX-Image-Enhancement-639010101
You say "with the release of 2017 revision such is currently is no longer possible". That means that 2017 models are not upgradable? Or the menus have been removed from firmware update of 2017?
There is a Therm-app second hand on ebay with 19mm lens for $1150aud ($850usd). I have the therm-App Th with 6.8mm. Didn't want the same camera, though the 19mm lens should be fun for sporting animals at night. It is a higher resolution than the ones mentioned above. Your Thoughts?
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$700 is the best price I have seen in the last during special offers that were coming along regularly from Zorro.
The 2017 revision of the E4 cannot be upgraded in any way as FLIR have changed the protection method to public/private key.
Upgraded E4 Vs ARGUS 4 -320 - its is an apples and pears comparison really. Both are 320 x 240 pixels. The ARGUS comes in a 160 x 120 pixel version though so be careful.
If it was my only camera I would choose the UPGADED E4 as it is more versatile for general work. A standard E4 with only 80 x 60 pixels available is not a camera that I recommend at any level. The U5855A would be a better choice in that scenario.
The phone based cameras are another option but very different to an 'all in one' solution. If you like the image quality and performance I will not steer you away from them. I just do not like the phone dongle format, especially if it was my only camera. I own five FLIR One G2 cameras all the same though :) (for experimentation really)
Fraser
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Thanks. So does the Flir e4 2017 models have a code number or something so I can know if I'm getting one that is unable to be upgraded?
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Take a look at the E4 teardown thread recent posts. Details are listed there. The serial number length is the tell tale.
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Take a look at the E4 teardown thread recent posts. Details are listed there. The serial number length is the tell tale.
Thanks, ill do that.
I found this E5 for $699. Is it a better option to E4?
https://gltools.us/product/flir-e5-thermal-imaging-imager-infrared-camera-120x90-pixel
The more I look around the more I want the better cameras. I see the E4 is a fixed focus. That means I wont get sharp images close up and far?
Also I would love a 30fps+ like the E30..... Now I'm searching for a E30, hopefully I can find a well priced unit.
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E30 or E40 may be upgraded to full E60 resolution and are better cameras than the E4.
Fixed focus is a compromise. Manual focus is better in many applications. If you can afford it, go for a used E30 or E40 and upgrade it. Details are on this forum. I bought an E40 and love it.
E5 is same as E4 when upgraded. Same hardware.
Fraser
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E30 or E40 may be upgraded to full E60 resolution and are better cameras than the E4.
Fixed focus is a compromise. Manual focus is better in many applications. If you can afford it, go for a used E30 or E40 and upgrade it. Details are on this forum. I bought an E40 and love it.
E5 is same as E4 when upgraded. Same hardware.
Fraser
Thanks. Yes it was your post about the E40 that got me changing mind. I prefer to spend a bit more on something that will cover all the 'personal requirements' instead of not being fully happy. I guess now its just me looking around and being patient on eBay. If you do ever come across a well priced E30/E40 please let me know. You always find good priced cameras.
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You will need to source an E30 or E40 within your own countries borders as these cameras are high frame rate models. International shipping requires all manner of 'Dual Use Technology' paperwork.
Fraser
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You will need to source an E30 or E40 within your own countries borders as these cameras are high frame rate models. International shipping requires all manner of 'Dual Use Technology' paperwork.
Fraser
I did some research and couldn't find anything about thermal camera import to Australia. Maybe there is no limit like in the US that has to be 9hz.
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I should be happy with what I got. The thermapp does give amazing images.
I played around with it now to prove that I dont need another camera.....for the moment.
Look how sharp the images are of my garage. It's winter here but the garage door is glowing like it's a wall of light as it faces the sun.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/e506354daa3b50d8bf41baf5a59f8ef7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/9c9ecc11593d1d3e08a7d11ad9f4b735.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/8d9c5358ae23a326ba1192b8031a84bb.jpg)
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I should be happy with what I got. The thermapp does give amazing images.
I played around with it now to prove that I dont need another camera.....for the moment.
Look how sharp the images are of my garage. It's winter here but the garage door is glowing like it's a wall of light as it faces the sun.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/e506354daa3b50d8bf41baf5a59f8ef7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/9c9ecc11593d1d3e08a7d11ad9f4b735.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/8d9c5358ae23a326ba1192b8031a84bb.jpg)
Good picture, but I spotted a vertical line with defect, it's on the 1/4 position from right, looks like the pixels are shifted downwards a bit.
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Yeah there is a line that goes all the way from top to bottom. It doesn't seem to be defective pixel, but like you said, its shifted. It annoys me a bit.
Mine isn't in warranty anymore and Therm-App said they can fix as it should be a calibration adjustment. But it will costs $400usd and would have to send to them in Israel. I thought that was a bit too much.
I can just invest $400 on another camera instead. I only use thermal cameras for fun and not work. I can always use photoshop to move that line up if I want a perfect photo.
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Just bought a Therm-app regular with 19mm lens (used for $688usd). I think it was an alright price. Looks brand new.
This should be an advantage over the Therm-app TH that I have with 6.8mm.
The 19mm is much better at spotting things from a distance. I should be able to see up to 400meters. And also a better lens for less noise as it's a wider aperture.
By the way, Jinhua.Ye from this forum (https://www.flickr.com/groups/therm-app-users/discuss/72157671546376373/ (https://www.flickr.com/groups/therm-app-users/discuss/72157671546376373/)) was able to fix the line of pixels that were shifted! And he did it for free while thermal was charging me $400 usd. :)
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So 2 new cameras arrived today. The thermapp with 19mm and a Argus 2. :)
The difference between 6.8mm and 19mm is a lot. Much better for sporting things from far. While the 6.8mm is better for indoors and wide.
The 19mm does look a bit cleaner image. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/cf5f4a314e7dfecad2aa11613d9b4768.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/06d1cda1b100c27b3b39c32b03b5e98c.jpg)
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Difference between 6.8mm and 19mm.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/11130c0b13fad5dd0ff2beb4a3be0172.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/724673888c610c07a4fa6fc5ccd17b4e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/c544030926a09b1fade77ac62cec5ce9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/f56bbd8368f60dbafcb105b0536263ed.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/beb4d57e90d4f4a73937b3ff5fbd8f1e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/9f69faae3f3d794cd179ad73a890ad4c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/3af3d39563aeea359c36d0681350fc2f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/fbc4663cf73f33037482e7c3fee8a4ac.jpg)
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That ARGUS 2 looks too clean and tidy to have seen much hard work. Does it smell of smoke ? If not, it was either used for training (fake smoke) or was not used in a fire fighting application.
A good find. If you have any issues with it, I will be pleased to help where able.
Fraser
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That ARGUS 2 looks too clean and tidy to have seen much hard work. Does it smell of smoke ? If not, it was either used for training (fake smoke) or was not used in a fire fighting application.
A good find. If you have any issues with it, I will be pleased to help where able.
Fraser
There is not many scratches on it. Only 2 large ones of about 5-7cm and a few small one on edges. Which is expected.
No smoke smell at all. But very strong plastic/rubber smell. It does look new. No scratch on the screen.
Thanks for your kind offer.
The image up close isn't sharp. Only gets sharper from about a meter away. Is that how it's meant to be?
Also I see a very very faint halo ring on the center of screen. Normal? I made a video.
https://youtu.be/JlJZONdbVSQ
Also what's the best way to clean the lens. It looks a bit dirty. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/e4ca298f7e3fb6e633726d8f0514c7d3.jpg)
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The difference between 15 years. Of course one is a robust piece of gear for fire fighting vs a delicate tool. But shows how technology has reduced in size to get the same result. And the Thermapp has even better resolution than the Argus. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/eda6bc7c2e062c3308f8de4fcfe66c17.jpg)
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The ARGUS 2 is fixed focus like the FLIR E4 and minimum focus (depth of field) is around a metre but in truth it is more like 3m on many cameras for decent focus. The focus may be adjusted on the lens barrel by loosening one screw.
The slight ring on the image is common on the Raytheon BST cores and is not considered a fault. I think it is a lens related aberration.
The focus on the viewfinder can sometimes drift a little. This is easily adjusted with a focus pot on the viewfinder board. The battery level meter gives a good indication of how crisp the display is. The display PCB offers all the usual CRT adjustments such as horizontal position, brightness, contrast etc.
Depending upon the customer requested system, the camera will output either a PAL or NTSC video standard image on the BNC socket. Bear this in mind if connecting to a monitor or video recorder. The video standard can be set by changing minor internal parts.
Also note that it is normal for hot objects to exhibit a dark hallow on these BST sensor based cameras. This is a product of the way the image is chopped with the chopper wheel.
Fraser
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Thanks for your information.
Where is the viewfinder focus pot located? Does it need to be dissasembled?
And the display PCB adjustments are inside the case?
I should read the manual to know more about it. Just didn't have the time yet.
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The camera is sealed to prevent water ingress. No adjustments are available without opening the camera inner case. See my ARGUS teardown for pictures.
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I'll have a look again. Now that I have the camera In hands.
Would have been handy to have the adjustments outside ams just used rubber caps to water proof loke the video out.
I'm a bit OCD when it comes to getting the best possible performance out of something. So if the clarity can be improved on the screen, I'll try to. :)
What about the lens cleaning? Should I not touch to not ruin the germanium coating?
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The lens is coated with hard carbon as these cameras take a beating. As long as you are gentle you will be fine. I personally soak some soft cotton wool in IPA and gently drag it across and around the lens face. Then gently wipe the lens with a microfibre glasses cleaning cloth. Do not rub hard.
The idea is to lift dirt off of the lens with the help and lubrication of the IPA. The microfibre cloth then gently lifts away and residue left by the IPA. Other cleaning agents are useable but IPA is common and may be purchased from a pharmacy. I prefer to use pure IPA rather than 'rubbing alcohol' which is IPA mixed with water.
Regarding access to adjustments. These cameras were designed to be very rugged and even submersible. The cameras were only adjusted if required and the service was done by EEV. User adjustment was never intended as fire brigades did not have the personnel to do such work. Adding adjustment ports would have increased the risk of inner sealed module leakage. The module is sealed with a gasket and silastic. It is vacuum tested for leaks at the factory via a vacuum port in one of the screw inserts. The port is then sealed with silastic.
I have seen what happens when one of these cameras is incorrectly re-assembled. Water got in around the lens due to a misplaced gasket. The lens was totally ruined by corrosion of the Germanium and Aluminium housing. Surprisingly the BST Sensor and PCB's survived the moisture ingress. These are very well designed cameras.
Fraser
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Ok thanks. I'll give that a try to clean. But I better not open it as it's working well. Don't want the lens to corrode with air humidity moisture.
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