low budget thermal camera

[tony359]

Greetings all

I would like to buy a thermal camera but I do not want to go with a "pro" version as it is beyond my budget. I am buying the camera to assess my house's thermal performances and also to help out when troubleshooting faulty PCB's. I appreciate the low budget Flir and Seek do not come with great resolution and are not really recommended for electronics but I am just a DIY'er, so I am ok with that.

I have searched the Internet for a while and I am unable to find much feedback on this - it's an old feedback based on older models or it's about much more expensive models.

I understand that the Seek has the advantage of manual focus, which is great to do closeups. The Flir has the advantage of the superimposed normal picture which however is basically useless when shooting close to the object as the two pictures do not align well.

The Flir has a lower thermal resolution but someone claims that it does not really matter.

I think don't care of the superimposed picture, I just want the best thermal image I can afford. To be clear, I am choosing between Flir One and Seek thermal Compact.

What is the best product as now, December 2017?

Thank you for your help!
Tony

[Vipitis]

The focus makes alot of difference.

You can also buy/build a lens attachment for the Flir ONE.

or you can diy a independent thermal camera with a Lepton, a board and screen. I remember seeing set being sold for 350$ that include the 160x120 Lepton.

[Spirit532]

My suggestion is - try to find a used Seek Compact XR or Seek Compact PRO.
With additional software(see pinned thread) these are quite capable cameras.

[tony359]

thanks both.

Regarding the Seek, is the XR the best choice for PCB use? As it can focus up to 10cm - if not mistaken - do I need the extra range?
I'll look for a used one, didn't think there was a market for those items. Are there different revisions available? I stumbled into a thread mentioning much less noise with the newer models.

And I'll take a look at the available custom software.
Cheers

[Spirit532]

The PRO is the best out of the three, but it may be pricy.
The XR is almost the same as the original, except it allows focusing(as does the PRO). For PCB work focusing is a must, and even then you might want an additional ZnSe macro lens($10-30 on eBay), but it's not necessary if you want a general overview of a small board.
The brand new units do seem to have lower noise, but I've yet to confirm that myself.

[Cat]

The XR is almost the same as the original, except it allows focusing(as does the PRO).

The normal Seec Compact (non XR/Pro) does have variable focus since ca. 2016. You can see the focus ring on mine, I can focus down to ~5 cm.

How you like the Seek Compact for PCB work depends what you want to see. The high NEDT, noisy Image, low framerate and automatic temperature scale (at leat with the original app) allows only to distinguish major temperature differences.
I took a few images of a PCB, on the left with focus set to minimum, on the right with a ZnSe-Lens (f= 1,5").
With a FLIR E60 I can see the 0402 components slightly heating up, this cannot be seen with the Seek.
Interestingly enough you can see the laser marking on the RAM with the Seek & ZnSe-Lens (also no problem with the FLIR).

[wraper]

Adjustable focus is essential for PCB inspection. Fixed focus cameras are hard to use on PCBs because they need quiet high distance to be in focus. IMO the cheapest that is good for PCB inspections is i3system TE – Q1 http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/products/t-e-q1/
Flir One and Seek thermal Compact are a joke compared to it. IIRC it costs around $500.
Photo from this tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-reveal-for-pcb-photos/

[Spirit532]

i3system TE – Q1

In most parts of the world it's either wrecked by customs/import taxes or local distributors who have exclusive agreements with i3system and can sometimes increase prices up to 200%, at which point a Therm-App or E4(E8+) is a no-brainer.

[tony359]

Thanks all.

I appreciate the Flir and Seek are "jokes" for PCB inspection but I simply do not have a budget for anything better - not even the Seek Pro.

So both Seek and Seek XR have adjustable focus, is the eXtended Range needed for PCB? The other use I am buying it for is to do a DIY "thermal audit" on my house - so I don't really need an extended range unless this could be better for PCB troubleshooting.

So are we ruling out the Flir for PCB inspection then? The MSX feature is useless when doing close-ups and if not mistaken the Flir does not have manual focus. If this is the case it has to be a Seek, correct?

Cheers!

[Spirit532]

Seek Pro.

This is why I suggested buying used - you can get a used Pro(320x240) for a little less than a brand new XR(206x156 + VAT), if you look around.

So both Seek and Seek XR have adjustable focus, is the eXtended Range needed for PCB? The other use I am buying it for is to do a DIY "thermal audit" on my house - so I don't really need an extended range unless this could be better for PCB troubleshooting.

The XR has a longer focal length, which means you get a narrower field of view. It should generally help with PCB work, but it's only the XR and Pro that have focusing, so it's the only two to buy. It could also help with the house thermal audit, but it may be a little cumbersome since you'll get less of the house in frame from the same distance - though it's a perk in terms of the Seek, because the sensor is, to put it lightly, sub-par - it's much smaller(if not many times) than the FLIR Ex/Exx/Thermal Expert/Therm-App sensors.

So are we ruling out the Flir for PCB inspection then? The MSX feature is useless when doing close-ups and if not mistaken the Flir does not have manual focus. If this is the case it has to be a Seek, correct?

Correct. It's useless for PCB work and the latest Gen3 cameras are ridiculously overpriced - the $200 model only has the old 80x60 Lepton 2, and the "better" $500 Pro is as good as the previous generation, as they both have the 160x120 Lepton3. In terms of thermal performance, it's less noisy, but the drop in resolution and lack of focus are a big no-no.

[IwuzBornanerd]

I have 3 seek compacts; 1 XR I purchased in June 2015 and an XR and non-XR that I bought in January 2017.  As I reported elsewhere (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/latest-seek-compact-(non-pro)-has-significantly-reduced-noise/msg1312544/#msg1312544) the 2 new ones have about one quarter the noise (or less) of the old one. ALL 3 can be focused; only the old original Seek is fixed focus.  If you don't mind popping one open,you can remove the focusing restriction and focus the XR down to about 2 inches and the non-XR to about 1 inch (see reply #2 in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-thermal-lens-repair/msg1249535/#msg1249535 for some information on that).  You don't want to force it though, as the lens is very close to completely out of the mounting base at that point. 

I am sure that that the point made above about the auto-ranging of the palette in the Seek app is a problem as stated, but I don't have a phone to use the cameras with so I don't have that problem.  I am re-posting here a closeup image of the Seek pcb taken with one of the new Seeks focused at a distance of 2 inches.  This should illustrate the potential, but you might need one of the 3rd party programs posted on this board to get the best results.

[tony359]

this is massively useful - thank you guys!

So to recap:

- Seek is preferred over Flir for PCB inspection because of adjustable focus and higher resolution sensor
- Newer Seek cameras seem to have have much less noise on the sensor (does this apply to the PRO too?)
- Using the custom software is a plus (that's fine with me, I have a laptop in my workshop)
- XR version generally better for PCB but an additional lens may help out too

Thx

[tonykids]

Seek pro bought in September 2017 .
A short-circuited 0805 capacitor on an SSD PCB.
Take by the modified SeekOFix without any processing.

[tony359]

Is there a place you'd recommend to look for a secondhand Seek pro? I have set up a search on eBay but I haven't seen anything coming up yet.
Thanks

[Vipitis]

I don't think a lot of offers will be put up on eBay this shortly after Christmas.

[IwuzBornanerd]

Things might be different across the pond, but here in the U.S. Amazon and several of their "Marketplace" sellers vary their prices on these things widely.  I just bought a NEW Seek Compact Pro from one of the marketplace sellers for $327 last week and by the time it had shipped that seller was asking $499 for it.  I had earlier passed up buying it for ~$350 & decided that I'd probably not see $327 again for a long time.  I have not seen any used Pro's on Amazon.

I got my non-XR "Compact" for <$170 back in January during a similar "sale".  That seller vanished a few weeks later though.

My point is, then, that one should watch the prices for a while before buying a new Seek as you could get a new one for less than most used offers--on Amazon anyway.

[JSu]

Hi Tony,

please see "for sale" section on this forum.

Br,

Jsu