Author Topic: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!  (Read 29567 times)

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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2017, 03:23:25 pm »
If there is a market in that price range, lowering it won't make much difference to sales - $39 is well within 'novelty purchase' territory. All that reducing the price will do is make it harder for you to make a viable product, and make people question how useful it is due to lower perceived value.
TBH even at $39 I think you'll struggle to make any money once all your 1-off costs are covered.


The design changes I have planned to reduce the cost will cut the number of parts on the board by 3/4, as well as the size of the PCB, and cut the BOM cost in half. So it will actually make manufacturing alot cheaper and easier, while actually enhancing functionality because the data will be in a microcontroller and I am sure I will figure out some interesting goodies to add in software.

I'm going to give my kickstarter backers what they want, pay some bills with the money, and see if I can get it to the next level. A thermal scanning solution that is a fraction of the cost of even the least expensive alternative out there, and can replace its functionality for some uses, seems like a good idea to me, and about 60 other people on kickstarter.

New products always involve risk or someone else would have done it already. Theres always a million reasons why something wouldn't or shouldn't be done. Talk sure is cheap though, isn't it?


« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 03:36:22 pm by exoticelectron »
 

Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2017, 03:50:37 pm »
Heres my new schematic, captured in Altium 2017 "clipboard" edition!

Greatly simplified..but not really.

It looks like I may be able to get away with an 8 pin microcontroller. I will keep it SOIC so that its as easy as possible to solder, because I will most likely be personally hand soldering the first few dozen.

So generally the BOM so far is based on 150qty, as follows:

MCU: PIC12F615 (10bit a/d, 16 bit timer, in-circuit programming @ 3V battery power), about $0.65
OPAMP: AD8601ARU, is the same opamp I have in the old design. Reasonably precision. Works in the proof-of-concept test. About $0.50
Buzzer: Have yet to select. Need a cheap, loud buzzer @ 3V. $0.50 or less
Thermopile: Most likely the TS105-6 but the TS118-3 may be better
Pushbutton: MJTP1138 series, cheap, small and works well
Slide switch: an OS series I've already picked out that is only about $0.30

Some design things:

Gain will be controlled by switching the high resistor in the opamp feedback loop. This sounds bad but has worked great in the original design, although in this case, the gain will be almost 5 times higher since the A/D is only 10bit and to get the sensitivity needed thats the only way. But the signals being detected are A) basically DC, and B) have all their offsets nulled out right at the start, so I think thats why having a switch in the feedback path seems to work okay.

I would like to drive the buzzer with the PIC directly, to eliminate as many parts as possible. This is probably not going to work because the transients will likely couple through the PIC to the PIC A/D and cause havoc. But I'm going to try it and see.



 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2017, 03:58:28 pm »
First of all: I like your idea and think it makes up a useful tool.
Regarding the KS campaign it is a question of where you want to go with the product.
If it is just about getting your invention out to other enthusiasts, you might want to consider making a DIY kit without the casing as the latter seems to be the most expensive part (injection molded?).
You could sell a PCB kit for a reasonable price and still make some money out of it: WIN-WIN for everyone
But: You will most likely not approach a big market as in "being sold at every hardware store".

If your goal is to produce the product in larger quantity, start a web-shop and sell quite a bit of these, you will most likely need more than 35.000$. Injection molding, PCB manufacturing and assembly, quality control, packaging, shipping, after sales etc. will easily blow the budget and there is always the risk of something going wrong e.g. replace or repair units damaged or lost during shipping, or something that slipped your QC.
If you plan to approach hardware stores / radio shack / ... most of the bigger shops have a listing fee you need to pay in order for them to stock (not buy!) your product.

A bare PCB version / DIY kit – maybe together with some drawings for a printable case would be very interesting for a lot of people out there IMO.

Best regards,
Frederik
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 
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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2017, 04:17:34 pm »
First of all: I like your idea and think it makes up a useful tool.
Regarding the KS campaign it is a question of where you want to go with the product.
If it is just about getting your invention out to other enthusiasts, you might want to consider making a DIY kit without the casing as the latter seems to be the most expensive part (injection molded?).
You could sell a PCB kit for a reasonable price and still make some money out of it: WIN-WIN for everyone
But: You will most likely not approach a big market as in "being sold at every hardware store".

If your goal is to produce the product in larger quantity, start a web-shop and sell quite a bit of these, you will most likely need more than 35.000$. Injection molding, PCB manufacturing and assembly, quality control, packaging, shipping, after sales etc. will easily blow the budget and there is always the risk of something going wrong e.g. replace or repair units damaged or lost during shipping, or something that slipped your QC.
If you plan to approach hardware stores / radio shack / ... most of the bigger shops have a listing fee you need to pay in order for them to stock (not buy!) your product.

A bare PCB version / DIY kit – maybe together with some drawings for a printable case would be very interesting for a lot of people out there IMO.

Best regards,
Frederik

I would actually really like to make DIY kit. I am definitely considering it. I don't know if its possible or not though business-wise. Im cutting the costs so drastically that the assembly part is going to be a very small cost so I cant really discount it by leaving it unassembled. But making it an open source design is also possible.

I dont think this device has a mass consumer appeal. Thousands of people have watched the kickstarter vid, probably because the picture looks really cool, but only a tiny percentage have pledged, and according to a poll I made, a big majority of them want it for electronics purposes. So I'm going to focus on them. That is after all, why I designed it, and what I use it for. Electronics is such a popular activity these days I know there are enough people out there who could use this tool and would pay the right price for it.

As far as the costs for selling many of them, its actually alot cheaper than you might think. I already have all those things in my budget and have been through this before. Heres what I'm working with:

PCB mfg: $0.30 from PCB WAY
PCB assy: $1.00 from PCB WAY
QC: Very basic QC test off the line. This is not an expensive or time consuming task. I can do this.
Packaging: $0.30 self adhesive poly bag
Shipping: $1.65 to the USA via USPS first class mail, $13.50 to anywhere else in the world, paid by the customer
After sales: there is no after sales besides direct technical contact with me..I don't anticipate this being an issue for an inexpensive tool like this.

The housing is the most expensive up-front cost. But I have a few ways of dealing with that.

Way 1: I have an industrial injection molding machine that I have made housings with before. I can design and machine the molds myself, and inject the housing myself, using my own equipment. And yes, its not a drill press with an attachment. Its a real injection molding machine and I make the molds properly with runners, draft, etc.. its not a big deal. If I were making 10,000 pieces with a hardened steel mold and needed absolute surface control and precise tolerances, that would be different, but this product does not require that. Also, there are low-volume injection mold services out there that dont require $10's of K molds. There are silicone molds and other methods for low volume stuff in the 100's to 1000's of pieces. This product would work great with those methods.

Way 2: People can 3D print their own housing, which I will supply a free STL for, using their own 3D printer or paying an online source to do it. This is in the $10 per piece range most likely. And also something fun to do with a DIY version.

Way 3: Like you suggested, a bare board with no housing. The device can be used like that if I design the PCB to be hand held and have battery holders. Also DIY friendly.


 

Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2017, 04:23:55 pm »
BTW if anyone thinks they will want a deltaK, please pledge on Kickstarter! You will not actually be charged anything because the kickstarter campaign is almost guaranteed not to meet the funding goal (its at $3100 of $35000 with 7 days to go). But I will be using the kickstarter system to stay in contact with the people who want one and they will get it first!
 
When the new design comes out you can decide if you want it or not , of course, and pay the lower price too.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2017, 04:40:49 pm »
Quote
BTW if anyone thinks they will want a deltaK, please pledge on Kickstarter

As previously noted, I would like one but it's not going to be any use to me. I guess my option is to do an add-on freq-to-light display - is there anything on there that would help me along that route (i.e. shortcut the process)?
 

Offline PDXjason

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2017, 04:42:51 pm »
I like the Altium clipboard edition schematic--it outputs to a nearly hand drawn style!  ;)

My coworker has a CATERPILLAR phone with a built-in FLIR--$600 phone looks like you could drop it off a roof and it would dent the sidewalk.  I can't believe what they can fit on phones these days.

Good luck, exoticelectron.  Sounds like you're really trying to make these accessible.
 
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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2017, 04:59:35 pm »
Quote
BTW if anyone thinks they will want a deltaK, please pledge on Kickstarter

As previously noted, I would like one but it's not going to be any use to me. I guess my option is to do an add-on freq-to-light display - is there anything on there that would help me along that route (i.e. shortcut the process)?

The problem isnt really the technical part...its whether or not the functionality would still be there by using a color changing light or bargraph. I dont think you'd get the same sensitivity. I havent tested it though.

Since the design would be in a microcontroller and you have a couple pins left, the sky is the limit. You could come up with whatever circuit you wanted and drive it however you wanted with the temperature data inside the cpu.

 

Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2017, 05:09:33 pm »
I like the Altium clipboard edition schematic--it outputs to a nearly hand drawn style!  ;)

My coworker has a CATERPILLAR phone with a built-in FLIR--$600 phone looks like you could drop it off a roof and it would dent the sidewalk.  I can't believe what they can fit on phones these days.

Good luck, exoticelectron.  Sounds like you're really trying to make these accessible.

Thanks! Yes the clipboard version was all I could afford.  :/

BTW your story reminds me of something. Eventually, thermal adapters for phones or even standalone cameras will get down to something crazy cheap like $30. But I think the deltaK will still be a useful tool even at the same price. First of all, its output is audible and doesn't require you to look at it.  And second, it puts your finger directly next to what you are scanning, which is very handy. Because you can physically touch whatever anomaly you find immediately, and that provides you with even more information about whats going on. Not only to confirm the physical location of the anomaly, but also to feel anything else that might explain it. (Vibration, thermal inertia, etc..)

You can still scan very hot surfaces like exhaust manifolds or what not, as long as its not radiating so much energy that it will burn you or the deltaK.  I think something would have to be glowing cherry red for that to happen. I've scanned dull red surfaces like the walls of wood fired stoves with no issue.



 

Offline PlainName

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2017, 06:07:42 pm »
Quote
would be in a microcontroller and you have a couple pins left

That would be great, thanks :)

And... duly pledged. The international shipping is quite painful one a cheap product!


 
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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2017, 06:14:54 pm »
Quote
would be in a microcontroller and you have a couple pins left

That would be great, thanks :)

And... duly pledged. The international shipping is quite painful one a cheap product!

Wow thank you so much!!!

Dont take the kickstarter pricing too seriously. That campaign is not going to fund and nobody will charged. Youre really just signing up for a mailing list.

HEY!!! I Just got an idea.

The reason international shipping is so high is that once an item meets "package" status from USPS, it gets bump WAY up from the "flat" rate to the package rate. I think its a jump from a couple dollars to more like $14. But, if I sell it as a diy KIT with a flat PCB and thin bag of parts, and no housing, it would almost certainly fit into the flat category and cut the cost way down. Keep your fingers crossed..I cant guarantee it yet but I will definitely see if I can pull that off.

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2017, 06:25:21 pm »
Quote
But, if I sell it as a diy KIT

Excellent idea, yes, and it would save me taking it apart too :)
 

Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2017, 06:28:53 pm »
I dont know where I got the idea AD8601 was cheap. Going to have to reselect an OpAmp. Im not too worried about it though its been a longgggg time since I picked that one out so I'm guessing I can beat it in specs and cut the price in half too. A more accurate schematic:

 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2017, 06:54:49 pm »
I just saw this -  I'm in and will wait for the updated version.

The demo video convinced me.

I can see a possible medical diagnostic use for something inexpensive and small like this that easily fits in a pocket. It could be used to better delineate an area of skin infection or help differentiate infected skin from reddened but non infected skin. I'm not sure it how well it would work - but for the price I'm willing to give it a try. Very tricorder like  ;D

I don't know what the ramifications are for marketing a device on kickstarter for medical diagnostic (not therapeutic!) purposes is, but if it works, it might be something you want to consider to enlarge your potential backer pool.
 
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Offline dimkasta

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2017, 06:58:10 pm »
A simple idea to open some visual feedback possibilities would be to duplicate the frequency output to an open pin header. That way people should be able to attach it to their dmm's freq counter, or even their oscilloscope. You should probably buffer the buzzer pin anyway, so getting a second output should be easy, even without going for a pic with more io ports

That way, you can probably even ship it with a bnc and/or banana cable and market it as a thermal probe :)
Now that would be something that can find much wider use :)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 07:05:12 pm by dimkasta »
 
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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2017, 07:04:31 pm »
I just saw this -  I'm in and will wait for the updated version.

The demo video convinced me.

I can see a possible medical diagnostic use for something inexpensive and small like this that easily fits in a pocket. It could be used to better delineate an area of skin infection or help differentiate infected skin from reddened but non infected skin. I'm not sure it how well it would work - but for the price I'm willing to give it a try. Very tricorder like  ;D

I don't know what the ramifications are for marketing a device on kickstarter for medical diagnostic (not therapeutic!) purposes is, but if it works, it might be something you want to consider to enlarge your potential backer pool.

Thank you so much!!  :DD

I'm not sure either, I doubt I could label it as a medical device that cures anything. But as a scanning thermometer I could probably show examples of someone using it for something like that.

One thing Im very excited about, that is I think inevitable, is that once the device gets out there people will find uses for it I never thought of. There are people who have pledged on kickstarter because they want to use it for bee hives and they are sure their bee hive colleagues would want one too. (!!)
 

Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2017, 07:07:33 pm »
A simple idea to open some visual feedback possibilities would be to duplicate the frequency output to an open pin header. That way people should be able to attach it to their dmm's freq counter, or even their oscilloscope. You should probably buffer the buzzer pin anyway, so getting a second output should be easy, even without going for a pic with more io ports

That way, you can probably even ship it with a bnc and/or banana cable and market it as a thermal probe :)
Now that would be something that can find much wider use :)

OOh I like that. Yes reading the frequency with a meter or scope could be fun. I could just add a testpoint for the PIC in which drives the gate of the buzzer fet.

It should not be underestimated how sensitive the ear is to audible pitch changes though..I will measure it next time to see what I am actually able to hear at a minimum. It makes detecting anomalies very easy. I am not sure that could be duplicated with a numeric (or frequency) readout, even on a scope. You need a time constant measured in 10's of milliseconds and usually the fastest a display can be read is more like 100's. But its doable!
 

Offline fcb

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2017, 07:50:28 pm »
Neat idea. Price is fine. As others have said - your video on KS should have included a demo of the unit.  I've backed it though.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 
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Offline dimkasta

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2017, 08:03:03 pm »
I just pledged too.

I agree. I was dissapointed and to be honest a bit suspicious towards the project when I did not see a direct presentation of the prototype in the main video.
The demo should be your main attraction.


You might also want to consider a full assembly and shipping service in china. It should significantly reduce shipping costs too
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 08:05:57 pm by dimkasta »
 
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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2017, 08:08:54 pm »
Neat idea. Price is fine. As others have said - your video on KS should have included a demo of the unit.  I've backed it though.

Thank you!!!  :DD

Yes I am going to change the video for the relaunch. I figure its too little too late for this one.

So on opamp selection.

I think the MCP6051-E/SN is my new choice. This should be read with your choice of sentimental "son is just like dad" or "things are so crazy in the world" 70's music.

Input offset: 150uV MAX (!!)
Input bias: 1pA typ 100pA MAX (!!!!!!)
Package: 8SOIC (or SOT23 if I want!!!!)
Supply current=: 30uA (!!!!! thats 1041 days of continuous operation in OFF mode with AAA batts..meaning I dont have to control its power = less parts!!)

Price @ 150qty: $0.55 (OHHHHHHHHHH)

Im sure I probably missed something because I'm just skimming over the datasheet. But for now thats the new golden boy.
 

Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2017, 08:11:09 pm »
I just pledged too.

I agree. I was dissapointed and to be honest a bit suspicious towards the project when I did not see a direct presentation of the prototype in the main video.
The demo should be your main attraction.


You might also want to consider a full assembly and shipping service in china. It should significantly reduce shipping costs too

Ya I will definitely do a demo in the relaunch. Its harder to make it look good but maybe that doesn't matter.

Assembly is really easy, I'm designing in a very minimal parts count and yours truly will assemble and test each one right here in California USA

USA shipping is very cheap..like $1.60. But international shipping is the problem. A few posts ago I got an idea that might fix that though.

AND THANK YOU for the pledge too !!!!!!!!
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2017, 08:15:01 pm »
Pretty sure a color-changing LED would work fine. No good for absolute measurement, but the whole point of the thing is the relative changes anyway.
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2017, 08:17:41 pm »
It should not be underestimated how sensitive the ear is to audible pitch changes though..I will measure it next time to see what I am actually able to hear at a minimum. It makes detecting anomalies very easy

This is an excellent point.

A similar issue came up in the 1980s when I was involved in some of the first neuroscience research using colorized digital quantitative radiography to determine regional neurotransmitter receptor densities.     At the time some felt colorizing images was a gimick (later proved to be quite wrong).  They were ignoring the fact that the human eye and visual system has evolved to do very fine discrimination of color within it's defined bandwidth. The same could be said of the human auditory system.
 
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Offline exoticelectronTopic starter

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2017, 08:19:14 pm »
Pretty sure a color-changing LED would work fine. No good for absolute measurement, but the whole point of the thing is the relative changes anyway.

I think color changing light would work well for very large changes in temperature but for very small changes I think its easier to hear them than see them in a color change. I havent tested it though. The audible method works so well that I dont really see a reason to add the visual output.

Sort of like a metal detector. Nobody uses a light that Im aware of. Some of them have an analog needle though, but I think thats more for discrimination and not for detecting spikes.


 

Offline edavid

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Re: new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2017, 08:24:25 pm »
Shipping: $1.65 to the USA via USPS first class mail
You really have to spring for tracking, or you'll spend all your time dealing with lost/delayed packages.  So that makes the minimum US shipping $2.77.

Quote
The housing is the most expensive up-front cost.
Can't you fit it into a standard Chinese plastic box?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-Junction-Box-Waterproof-Project-New-Case-Black-Electric-Plastic-55x35x15mm-/142079759201

Quote
The reason international shipping is so high is that once an item meets "package" status from USPS, it gets bump WAY up from the "flat" rate to the package rate. I think its a jump from a couple dollars to more like $14. But, if I sell it as a diy KIT with a flat PCB and thin bag of parts, and no housing, it would almost certainly fit into the flat category and cut the cost way down.
The envelope has to fit through a 1/4" slot, which is challenging.  Also, you don't get tracking.
 
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