new $39 thermal scanner on kickstarter, the deltaK!

[exoticelectron]

Its interesting how some people instantly grasp what this device is and how it needs to work, and others are still thinking its a point and shoot IR thermometer.

No, people have fully understood the difference - but as garnix says:

I think I understand what is special about the deltaK - but at the same time I'm not sure if a lot of people (outside of detecting faults on electronics boards) initially find the scanning feature very useful, without some research what could be done with such a device - I'm not even sure if it will help for my use cases ;-)

We understand you made a scanner, but we don't see in what common situations we might be in a scanner is good for if it doesn't ALSO have a thermometer function.

We are not good at quantizing a change in tone, so we won't be good at quantizing a temperature difference with this. And when you scan a board there will always be temperature differences between components, only when you know how much can you figure out whether they're normal or not.

No, not everybody understands it. People posting comparisons to point and shoot IR thermometers, do not understand why the deltaK is different. Some people get it, some don't.

I've already addressed this the first time you said it. Like I said before, if you were to see a thermal image of a surface using a thermal camera, with just colors, and no absolute data, it would be easy to spot anomalies. The deltaK works the same way. In reality, there are differences, enough of the time, to locate anomalies, on circuit boards, especially when you combine knowledge of known good boards, and knowledge of how the circuit works, but even without that information. I've been using this device for more than a decade for exactly this purpose, so I know for a fact it works for this. This is not a theoretical tool that I'm crossing my fingers will work right. Its already an established fact.

Quantizing the tone is not how the deltaK is used. Hearing a continuously varying tone is a very intuitive way to locate changes in a signal. The video should make that really obvious.  As the tone goes up, things are hotter, as it goes down, they are colder. How much the tone changes tells you how much of temperature change there is relative to a starting point of your choice. A few minutes using the deltaK to get used to the three sensitivity levels and you will already understand whats its telling you as far as absolute temperatures.

What you are saying would mean that it would be impossible to find thermal variations using your sense of touch, because there are no absolute numbers. Or that heat maps don't tell you anything without absolute numbers. I'm sure almost everyone here has used their fingers to find hot parts on circuit boards. The deltaK lets you do the same thing but much faster, much more accurately, without the thermal mass of your finger, without burning yourself, and without touching live circuitry.

[exoticelectron]

dont want to be watching the scanner as you also move it, that doesnt make sense

How do you know what it's pointing at?

Thats my point..its one or the other. What its pointing at, or what temperature its indicating. Not both.

I think you missed my drift, or I wasn't clear (more likely). If you can't see the scanner, how do you know it's pointing at the board where you're looking? It could be pointing off to the side. My supposition is that you know it is pointing the right way because you can see it in your peripheral vision. Actually, probably more to  centre since it will be much closer to the board than your eyes! But the thing is that you won't be focused on it.

That's obviously not very good for reading numbers, but for seeing colour change (or just an LED going on or off) it is perfectly adequate.

I know you're set against an LED of any kind as an indicator with this and I accept that. I'm just correcting what I think is an erroneous view that having such an indicator requires more concentration on it than a sounder does.

What I'm set against are useless features that don't add to the functionality. A numeric display is bad for a moving scanner thats meant to locate anomalies. Thats why metal detectors don't use a numeric display. Or the stopwatch example.

A color changing light will not provide the resolution that a changing audio tone would, as I said, because color sensitivity is not as good as tone sensitivity. Also, you'd have to be watching the light while you are scanning. Its the same, although not as severe, problem as the numeric display. Listening to the tone change is much easier and more comfortable. So I dont see any reason to add an optical output. Worse in every way. Why would I change it to something that will not improve how it currently works? Whats the logic there?

[exoticelectron]

I imagine it as the thermal equivalent of a metal detector. Potentially very handy and cheap enough to be worth playing with.

This is a reasonable comparison that I've made before, altough metal detectors dont have a signal at all times, while the delta K does, and they need to be moving to have an output at all, while the deltaK can be held still. But at an intuitive level its pretty similar. Sweep the device and find changes through sound.

[Kilrah]

I've already addressed this the first time you said it. Like I said before, if you were to see a thermal image of a surface using a thermal camera, with just colors, and no absolute data, it would be easy to spot anomalies.

And I maintain that it isn't
You can see a hot spot, but it is perfectly normal for that component to be hotter than the neighboring stuff, e.g. 20° above. It would however NOT be normal if it was 40° above. How do you determine that? The useful signal is drowned in "noise" from normal temp differences across the board.
For the device to be useful I'd want to be able to do the same as with my thermal camera - look at the image, locate one or more potential issues visually, THEN evaluate them with numbers. Your insistance in not putting a numeric readout means I have to go dig another tool for that second, essential part of the job.

What you are saying would mean that it would be impossible to find thermal variations using your sense of touch, because there are no absolute numbers.

Of course you can find variations, but unlike with your device you can actually quantify them somewhat by the absolute "can I hold my finger on it or not" reference

Or that heat maps don't tell you anything without absolute numbers. I'm sure almost everyone here has used their fingers to find hot parts on circuit boards.

As said above they tell you something - but not the whole story. Your device is initially useful, but stops being useful too quickly. Picture using a lightbulb to check 2 wires for presence of a voltage, when it lights it's great, but then you still have to dig out your voltmeter to check if it's the normal 12V or if it fell down to 9V for some reason and that's what your issue is, because I won't be able to say if it's 9V or 12V by the absolute brightness of the bulb.

I have no problem using my finger checking for a hot spot, and if it seems abnormal I go grab the thermometer becasuse I kinda have my finger always on me for free - but if I purchase a tool that can technically measure temperature, that measuring temprature will most of the time be the next thing to do after using the tool for its primary purpose, then for me it is bad design and I won't buy it becasue even if its initial idea is useful it jsut falls short of really being practical. I'd rather have the really practical version even if it costs double.

[mtdoc]

I agree that a numeric temperature readout will not add much value. It will only make it more complicated and expensive.

This is not meant to be a thermometer. It is a relative temperature scanner meant to quickly scan and delineate the boundaries of a temperature gradient.  If it performs as specified, it will do this faster, more accurately, and safer than using one's fingers.

[exoticelectron]

I've already addressed this the first time you said it. Like I said before, if you were to see a thermal image of a surface using a thermal camera, with just colors, and no absolute data, it would be easy to spot anomalies.

And I maintain that it isn't
You can see a hot spot, but it is perfectly normal for that component to be hotter than the neighboring stuff, e.g. 20° above. It would however NOT be normal if it was 40° above. How do you determine that? The useful signal is drowned in "noise" from normal temp differences across the board.
For the device to be useful I'd want to be able to do the same as with my thermal camera - look at the image, locate one or more potential issues visually, THEN evaluate them with numbers. Your insistance in not putting a numeric readout means I have to go dig another tool for that second, essential part of the job.

What you are saying would mean that it would be impossible to find thermal variations using your sense of touch, because there are no absolute numbers.

Of course you can find variations, but unlike with your device you can actually quantify them somewhat by the absolute "can I hold my finger on it or not" reference

Or that heat maps don't tell you anything without absolute numbers. I'm sure almost everyone here has used their fingers to find hot parts on circuit boards.

As said above they tell you something - but not the whole story. Your device is initially useful, but stops being useful too quickly. Picture using a lightbulb to check 2 wires for presence of a voltage, when it lights it's great, but then you still have to dig out your voltmeter to check if it's the normal 12V or if it fell down to 9V folr some reason and that's what your issue is.

I have no problem using my finger checking for a hot spot, and if it seems abnormal I go grab the thermometer becasuse I kinda have my finger always on me for free - but if I purchase a tool that can technically measure temperature, that measuring temprature will most of the case be the next thing to do after using the tool for its primary purpose, then I strike it as bad design and won't buy it.

Name me any other device that uses a single color changing light to indicate a rapidly changing signal. There arent any. The problem with your logic is that you are theorizing how the deltaK works in practice, but I know how it works because I've used it for years. You even have a medical doctor on here that wants one for locating skin infections. There are patented devices that are very similar for medical and industrial usage and they all use tones for output. There is a firefighting device that does the same thing but at longer distances. 100% of them do not use numeric or optical outputs, because thats obviously an inferior and silly way to indicate relative temperature on a device you are scanning by physically sweeping. Colors work great on an image, but there are basically zero devices out there that use a single spot of color to indicate change.

You can quantity the absolute temperature with the deltaK by simply starting the scan on a surface with a known temperature. Maybe the desk. Maybe a large blank area on the circuit board. You're over simplifying the way the deltaK gets used. Its a very intuitive device that extends your normal senses and brain and integrates with them as an enhancer.

The reason I don't want to add a numeric absolute temperature display for point measurements is because of cost. The hardware can do it, but I'm leaving that for then open source hackers, or a future version. For scanning mode its useless.

[PlainName]

color sensitivity is not as good as tone sensitivity

Depends on the scale. If, say, 25C and below was green and 30C and above red, you'd jolly well notice a degree or so change within that range.

you'd have to be watching the light while you are scanning

No, you'd have to be able to see it, which doesn't mean looking at it. Peripheral vision is great for on off (or flashing rate), but where your hand will be is great for colour and you don't need to be looking at it. If that weren't so, none of those irritating animated adverts would be so irritating

Come to think of it, as I am typing this I can see, without looking at them, the smilies line. Not the detail, but I see the colour and the motion.

[PlainName]

Name me any other device that uses a single color changing light to indicate a rapidly changing signal

Just about every wire and pipe detector uses an LED. Don't know if they also use a sounder, but the LED does it for me just fine.

[exoticelectron]

Name me any other device that uses a single color changing light to indicate a rapidly changing signal

Just about every wire and pipe detector uses an LED. Don't know if they also use a sounder, but the LED does it for me just fine.

A continuously changing color is not the same as red/green on off or a series of 5 leds that light up as a bargraph. Why do you want a feature added thats never been tried? I know for sure that the audio version works great. Why would you trust me to write the firmware and design all the circuitry, but when it comes to the whole reason I am making the device in the first place, which is to release a tool I have found very useful, suddenly you want it to be completely different?

[PlainName]

Why do you want a feature added thats never been tried?

As I said before, I am profoundly deaf so just a sounder makes the device totally useless. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person thus afflicted and unable to benefit. On the other hand, if you put the LED in the device is usable to me, and hearing people can also use the sounder or LED as they wish.

Kind of like subtitles on the telly. Obviously much worse than audio, but they're the only thing I can use, and many hearing people use the subtitles (I know not whether that's instead or as well, but the numbers are surprising).

[exoticelectron]

I agree that a numeric temperature readout will not add much value. It will only make it more complicated and expensive.

This is not meant to be a thermometer. It is a relative temperature scanner meant to quickly scan and delineate the boundaries of a temperature gradient.  If it performs as specified, it will do this faster, more accurately, and safer than using one's fingers.

Exactly! And yes I have definitely not forgotten about the special micro version for you. I am swamped with projects right now but I am going to make that. Probably after the kickstarter relaunch, but maybe before!

[exoticelectron]

Why do you want a feature added thats never been tried?

As I said before, I am profoundly deaf so just a sounder makes the device totally useless. I am pretty sure that I am not the only person thus afflicted and unable to benefit. On the other hand, if you put the LED in the device is usable to me, and hearing people can also use the sounder or LED as they wish.

Kind of like subtitles on the telly. Obviously much worse than audio, but they're the only thing I can use, and many hearing people use the subtitles (I know not whether that's instead or as well, but the numbers are surprising).

If I was to make a special one for you, I'd want it to work just as well as the audio version. Adding the color changing LED would be better than nothing, but a far cry from the ease and sensitivity of the tone. It would be reasonable in your case.

[Kilrah]

This is not meant to be a thermometer. It is a relative temperature scanner meant to quickly scan and delineate the boundaries of a temperature gradient.  If it performs as specified, it will do this faster, more accurately, and safer than using one's fingers.

Agreed, but then once you've done that you'll want to know the temperature of one of the locations - and it's kinda stupid that it doesn't do it and you have to dig another tool.

The problem with your logic is that you are theorizing how the deltaK works in practice, but I know how it works because I've used it for years.

And so will most of your potential customers, since it's only you who's used it for years Analyzing the theory, trying to project that into practice and evaluating possibilities and usability is one of the main thing engineers do, on an engineer forum you're naturally going to face a lot of that

The reason I don't want to add a numeric absolute temperature display for point measurements is because of cost. The hardware can do it, but I'm leaving that for then open source hackers, or a future version. For scanning mode its useless.

Cross-posted but I edited my post above to say I'd happily pay double if it had a temp readout function, however I won't pay $35 for the scanning alone since I feel while scanning is a good idea having only that makes no sense and I'd also want readout.
Maybe I'm wrong and by using it I'd realize the readout isn't that useful (it will always somewhat be even for non-overlapping use) but that's how it comes to me. But becasue of [previous sentence] I will never know.

[exoticelectron]

This is not meant to be a thermometer. It is a relative temperature scanner meant to quickly scan and delineate the boundaries of a temperature gradient.  If it performs as specified, it will do this faster, more accurately, and safer than using one's fingers.

Agreed, but then once you've done that you'll want to know the temperature of one of the locations - and it's kinda stupid that it doesn't do it and you have to dig another tool.

The problem with your logic is that you are theorizing how the deltaK works in practice, but I know how it works because I've used it for years.

And so will most of your potential customers, since it's only you who's used it for years Analyzing the theory, trying to project that into practice and evaluating possibilities and usability is one of the main thing engineers do, on an engineer forum you're naturally going to face a lot of that

The reason I don't want to add a numeric absolute temperature display for point measurements is because of cost. The hardware can do it, but I'm leaving that for then open source hackers, or a future version. For scanning mode its useless.

Cross-posted but I edited my post above to say I'd happily pay double if it had a temp readout function, however I won't pay $35 for the scanning alone since I feel while scanning is a good idea having only that makes no sense and I'd also want readout.
Maybe I'm wrong and by using it I'd realize the readout isn't that useful (it will always somewhat be even for non-overlapping use) but that's how it comes to me. But becasue of [previous sentence] I will never know.

To be clear, I would also find it useful to have a numeric display for absolute temperature. Its just a cost thing.  But of course it would be more useful than not having it. The deltaK is for finding temperature anomalies in space, not time. I find that usually when I need to measure anomalies in time, it makes alot more sense to have a multimeter style tool with a fixed probe, and in that case, I probably need to know absolute temperature too.

In practice, I do not find that I need to know the absolute temperature of things while scanning circuit boards. It just doesn't seem to come up that often, if ever. And if you do need a quick absolute reference, you can just recal the deltaK on a known surface (2 seconds) and then go back to the anomaly and there you go, the 3 dynamic ranges are well defined and after you use it awhile you can get an idea what the absolute temperatures of things are using this method, just like you can by touching things. I go back to the thermal camera analogy, without absolute temperature data. A heat map tells you a tremendous amount about the thermal state of a surface, without absolute data. And if you want absolute data, just pick a roughly known spot and start the deltaK there.

I dont find alot of thermal noise on circuit boards. Of course, there are an infinite number of circuit board designs out there. And there are of course some situations where thermal data by itself, even from a camera, might be too complex to make conclusions from. But even in that case, you can usually compare known good to device under test and figure things out.

When I troubleshoot circuit boards, I bring the whole calvary, every meter, scope, soldering iron, thermometer, schematics, PCB layout, etc..... basically every tool and document I have and throw it all at the problem on the first go. Its not a situation where there is a benefit to having just-one-tool. The deltaK provides a unique functionality at a very low cost that fills a blank spot in that toolbox. I'm still keeping my Omega thermocouple meter, my point and shoot IR themometer, and if I ever get a thermal camera, that too, and of course the deltaK. They arent exclusive of each other, they compliment each other.

[garnix]

I understand the cost problem with an numeric display...

Just to understand: I agree displaying 10 updates per sec on such a display would not be useful, but a MAX or MIN reading after scanning would be enough.

[frozenfrogz]

Hello
Any updates on this projects?