Author Topic: New Flir products  (Read 224209 times)

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Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2015, 12:27:14 pm »
@Mike,

Are you thinking possible interpolation within the ROIC ? I wondered about such as well. A risky move by FLIR though as it is bound to be discovered by the tech community.

I recall how clever IRISYS was with its limited pixel count sensors though.

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Offline TopLoser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2015, 12:29:59 pm »
Another useful test image would be an image of a very sharp edge at a slight angle, which can be useful to judge resolution by the jaggies.
I'm still yet to be 100% convinced there is a new Lepton with 120x160 physical pixels.

See the heatsink pic I posted elsewhere

 

Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2015, 12:52:31 pm »
I have asked my friends at FLIR to confirm the the physical pixel specification of the Lepton core that is used in the 2nd Generation ONE. I also asked if interpolation was being used, to avoid any confusion  ;)

Should hear back from them today.

I like what I see in Toplosers images though. Some nice image processing going on. A thermally low contrast image will show up any noise issues as the ONE will close down its thermal span to its minimum available. FLIR may of course have avoided obvious noise using either image processing or by setting a minimum possible span that avoids such. It will be interesting to know what the minimum span is on the new ONE unit. Anything greater than about 15C avoids obvious noise issues.

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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2015, 01:07:19 pm »
@Mike,

Are you thinking possible interpolation within the ROIC ? I wondered about such as well. A risky move by FLIR though as it is bound to be discovered by the tech community.

I recall how clever IRISYS was with its limited pixel count sensors though.

Fraser
I don't know - maybe I'm just being overly cynical, but I'll believe it when I see the scope data, or at least a side-by-side comparison.
They have been rather reticent until now about the resolution - I suspect that could be that on launch back in Jan they were unsure of they could ship a true 160x120 so keeping their options open.
 
Seems like a 160x120 would probably need a bigger die, and possibly a bigger package as there's a limit to how far they could shrink it - I don't know if it's the small pixel size or other factors that made the Seek so disappointing.
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Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2015, 02:06:22 pm »
It would be a shock if the 2nd Generation Lepton contained a version of the Raytheon core used in the SEEK  :-DD

Remember the Patent dispute that made SEEK Thermal blank every 15th pixel on the die ?

I am only jesting but funnier things have happened  :)

I still have a problem believing that Raytheon would produce a dud microbolometer design. It may just have needed a company like FLIR to work their magic with its output ?

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Offline kihon

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #105 on: June 26, 2015, 03:29:15 pm »
Has anyone connected one to a windows/linux pc to see if you can get raw data out of it?

Thanks

Kihon.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #106 on: June 26, 2015, 04:16:27 pm »
There is a good review in here:
http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/

Frame rate looks great.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 04:19:13 pm by miguelvp »
 

Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #107 on: June 26, 2015, 04:54:55 pm »
@miguelvp,

I note that FLIR have provided a compatibility table and several Android phones seem to suffer from poor recording rate though. A bug that FLIR will hopefully iron out in due course.

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Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #108 on: June 26, 2015, 05:06:22 pm »
An interesting aspect to the New 2nd GEN 'ONE' launch is how keen FLIR are to encourage 3rd party applications for their new baby. Very forward thinking if you want to dominate a market. Engage with the clever independent developers to find and exploit new uses for the camera. The iOS SDK was made available some time ago and I understand that some 3rd party apps are near release. The Android SDK is promised to follow in July.

http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf

Hopefully the 'Maker' and 'Coder' fraternities will find something they like about the camera and help it to develop beyond FLIRs original design.

Much will rest on whether the new camera is truly 160x120 pixel resolution in hardware as that is, IMHO, where useful thermal imagery begins. 80x60 is just a tad too low for me.

On my 'Wish list' is the ability to connect the ONE to a PC/SBC/RPi or whatever so that it can be used as part of a larger 'system'. It may be that this will not be possible, but the Android version does at least provide the opportunity. The lads with Android SEEK cameras have them hooked up to all manner of hardware  :-+

Aurora
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 05:14:30 pm by Aurora »
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Offline NathanFowler

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #109 on: June 26, 2015, 05:27:55 pm »
I suggest you resell your 1st Gen One quickly as the resale value of the lower resolution version is likely to fall significantly once the public get to know of the new model ?

What the new model promises, and hopefully delivers, makes the 1st Generation ONE look cumbersome and very low resolution.

For the thermal camera experimenter this could mean cheap LEPTONs from unwanted 1st Gen ONE units ?

Aurora

So the good news is that I have until Jul 11 to return it to Amazon under the reason "Cheaper elsewhere" since FLIR dropped it to $150 and I paid $199.  I'm an ethical and honest person so being able to return it for this reason is acceptable versus claiming "broken" or "not useful" or some other such rubbish =)  I'm waiting to see what you guys think about it, the auto-shuttering, and if there are any major issues/failures (such as the thermal gradient issues w/Seek) before I return it and pick up a 2nd generation.  Honestly, I also like the sled versus the hanging dongle.  All in all, happy with the Gen 1, excited about the Gen 2, and might keep both.  Thanks for everyone who has shared and participated in this great community, I eagerly read your posts!
 

Offline NathanFowler

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2015, 05:31:39 pm »
Just arrived. It's tiny.

Curious mix of micro USB and Lightning connector - need to carry two charger cables. Otherwise it's verynicely made and feels high quality. Downloaded the app, plugged it in and it works. Can't see any screws or fastenings so I'll leave it in one piece for now. Very pleased.

Would you be willing to share some images with us with the MSX blending disabled?  I'm very curious to see the quality of the IR only images.  Thank you for taking the time to share with us.
 

Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2015, 05:34:36 pm »
I have just received a response regarding whether a new higher resolution Lepton is used in teh new ONE camera.

"Hi Fraser -

It is a new Lepton sensor with 4X the thermal resolution of the previous version.

Regards,

Tom "

Tom hasn't gone beyond the official statements to date. I specifically asked him whether interpolation was in use and what the physical resolution of the sensor is. "4X the thermal resolution" and "a new Lepton sensor" could in truth translate as a new Lepton core using the same 80x60 microbolometer feeding an ROIC that interpolates it to 4X the physical resolution before presenting the data at its output pins. It would, in theory be a core with 4X the resolution at the output....albeit interpolated.

I suspect we are all familiar with the games played by Chinese OEM's claiming high resolutions for their webcams, USB microscopes etc. Many are just interpolating low resolution CMOS imaging chips to silly resolutions. I do hope that FLIR are not trying to pull a smoke and mirrors trick here.

Mike and I may just be very pessimistic, but it is interesting that the physical sensor spec is absent and that the FLIR techs are are just quoting a vague 'party line' to me.

I will go back to FLIR and ask for specifics and see what they say.

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Offline NathanFowler

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2015, 05:45:40 pm »
Mike and I may just be very pessimistic, but it is interesting that the physical sensor spec is absent and that the FLIR techs are are just quoting a vague 'party line' to me.

Hoping you or Mike get yours soon so we can know for sure, otherwise it seems we might be dealing with some wordsmithing as you've described.  I'm not insinuating that's the case but it would be nice to definitively know if this is a Lepton 80x60 or not; it's interesting that there is no updated information on the Lepton/FLIR page regarding a resolution increase that would coincide with the release of the second generation.
 

Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2015, 05:50:38 pm »
Not my best drafting by any means but I think the question I have just posed to FLIR will elicit a response that resolves the matter, one way or the other. I do not think I left FLIR any 'wriggle room' with my question bit we shall see.

"Hi,

I have pre-ordered the 2nd Generation FLIR ONE for Android and need to clarify something about the new cameras thermal specification. I have already been advised that the new LEPTON produces 4X the resolution of the old 80x60 core, but this could be achieved through interpolation within the ROIC.

I own and use several FLIR thermal cameras and for my applications I need true 160 pixel x 120 pixel physical (optical) resolution from my cameras. That is to say, interpolation from 80x60 up to 160x120 would not work for me.

Please will you confirm the physical pixel count of the Microbolometer used in the new 2nd Generation Lepton core

Kindest Regards

Fraser"

The weird thing is that I will probably still proceed with the purchase of the new FLIR ONE even if it does turn out to be interpolated ! If the image is detailed enough for my needs, its good enough for the money.  Part of me still thinks this new FLIR ONE is too cheap and that could be explained by the use of the old LEPTON technology coupled to a bit of FLIR 'magic'  ;D

Aurora
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 06:25:23 pm by Aurora »
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Offline NathanFowler

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2015, 06:03:33 pm »
... I need true 160 pixel x 120 pixel physical (optical) resolution from my cameras. That is to say, interpolation from 80x60 up to 160x120 would not work for me.

Very well said and posed.

Part of me still thinks this new FLIR ONE is too cheap and that could be explained by the use of the old LEPTON technology coupled to a bit of FLIR 'magic'  ;D

This is where I am concerned as well and the lack of a coinciding update in resolution on http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=62648
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 06:05:16 pm by NathanFowler »
 

Offline marshallh

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2015, 08:14:38 pm »
I am not impressed with the sample shots so far. My gut feeling is that it is upscaled. Hard to tell with the MSX mess going on.

Really hoping it's just a poor lens/focus problem. My NEC Avio that has true 160x120 gets far better imagery.

EDIT: Other much earlier press shots look much better. Maybe they swapped out for the crappier Lepton for mass production, or a software bug?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:20:50 pm by marshallh »
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Offline Muxr

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2015, 08:30:34 pm »
Would be cool if they implemented sensor movement as a way of doubling the resolution. Sort of how Olympus does it on their e-m5-II cameras.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2015, 11:47:34 pm »
"4X the thermal resolution" and "a new Lepton sensor" could in truth translate as a new Lepton core using the same 80x60 microbolometer feeding an ROIC that interpolates it to 4X the physical resolution before presenting the data at its output pins. It would, in theory be a core with 4X the resolution at the output....albeit interpolated.
Or 80x60 with 2 more bits of NETD

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Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2015, 07:18:08 am »
You can pre-order the Android version on Amazon too, by the way.



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W5PRY52
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2015, 07:53:15 am »
Well at least the 1st gen ones are going for just $150.

I'm not sure why they decided to put a battery that can't be removed, what would happen to the module if the battery dies?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2015, 07:55:28 am »
Well at least the 1st gen ones are going for just $150.

I'm not sure why they decided to put a battery that can't be removed, what would happen to the module if the battery dies?
There's no such thing as "can't be removed..." ;D
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2015, 08:01:38 am »
Well at least the 1st gen ones are going for just $150.

I'm not sure why they decided to put a battery that can't be removed, what would happen to the module if the battery dies?
There's no such thing as "can't be removed..." ;D

Was talking about your average consumer ;D
 

Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2015, 09:49:09 am »
Sadly the 'sealed case' designs seem to be common with mobile phones and the FLIR may ve just following the trend. Some mobile phones are almost designed to prevent any attempt to change the battery..... built in obsolescence ? The throw away society is sadly evident in many consumer products.

I can see the technically minded wishing to upgrade the battery for longer run time. Hopefully FLIR have not glued or welded the case together. Hidden internal clips or screws would be my bet. A quick pass through my Faxitron X-Ray will reveal its secrets. I suspect one will be opened well before my unit arrives in July/August though.

Aurora
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 09:56:50 am by Aurora »
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Online Fraser

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2015, 10:04:03 am »
The new FLIR ONE has FCC approval....... probably because it attaches to a transmitting device.

http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf

So what you may say ? Well FCC approval often means that an FCC test report exists and they often contain images of internal PCB's etc   ;)  Case fixings may also be visible ?

I have no time to search the FCC database at the moment but will take a look later.

Aurora
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Offline marshallh

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2015, 05:28:43 pm »
I did a search for FLIR's vendor code but search for IWK only reveals bluetooth-enabled Extech multimeters
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