EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: mikeselectricstuff on January 05, 2015, 04:50:27 pm
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Flir One for Android, and New compact C2 self-contained imager ($699)
http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=66732 (http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=66732)
http://www.flir.com/flirone/ (http://www.flir.com/flirone/)
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Correction - Flir One for All IOS and Android (presumably 2 versions, maybe 3 if they learnt from Seek's one-direction-only USB plug issue)
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"The perfect gift for a friend."
Looks like someone missed a deadline here... :palm:
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Wow, its smaller than I expected so I presume it takes its power from the phone as is the case with the SEEK.
Sadly this could be a SEEK Thermal killer as the performance of the SEEK remains less than great and it doesn't matter how many pixels you have if you do not process them well enough for a decent image. FLIR are masters of such processing and even make 80x60 pixels look OK with their MSX and noise suppression algorithms.
I would certainly buy the new Android camera from FLIR. I wonder what the cost will be. If its close to the SEEK, I think it may be game over for that embryonic product. A case of the shark and minnow, if FLIR want SEEK Thermal out of the cheap TIC market, they could make it happen without breaking a sweat. Sad but true.
The C2 looks interesting as well. A bi-product of the dinky little DEMO unit ? Maybe FLIR always intended to build the C2 but it kinda kills the market for the weird TG165 hybrid.
Aurora
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I like the C2 too. Now who buys one and does a review? >:D
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From here :
http://gizmodo.com/flirs-new-tiny-predator-vision-thermal-camera-now-fits-1677792125 (http://gizmodo.com/flirs-new-tiny-predator-vision-thermal-camera-now-fits-1677792125)
Aiming for $250, surprising it has an internal battery - maybe teh MSX stuff pulls too much to run on power from the phone
With this at $250 I think Seek could be looking rather less attractive - MSX compensates for the lower res, and lepton noise/sensitivity is a lot better
The C2 looks interesting as well. A bi-product of the dinky little DEMO unit ? Maybe FLIR always intended to build the C2 but it kinda kills the market for the weird TG165 hybrid.
Dave tweeted about something with a press date, and Flir have given him review stuff in the past
Pity it couldn;t have been closer to $499 - as is it's not much less than the price you can get an E4 for with discounts
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At $250 I see it killing the SEEK stone dead unless SEEK Thermal pulls their finger out and sort out both the gradient and noise issues. It would be a very sad end to the venture but the marketplace into which they have entered is evolving rapidly so they need a decent, well rounded product to compete.
As for the C2, I see it as much like my NEC Avio F30S, a compact camera fro the building inspectors pocket......BUT at 80x60 it does not meet the minimum resolution requirements of the UK building thermal survey regulations. I agree regarding price. I would have hoped for $450 though as the resolution is a limitation that cannot be ignored if doing building surveys. Isuspect any casual thermal surveys could be done well enough with the mini FLIR One for Android/iOS anyway. At $250 that is quite a saving over the C2.
This is why I am wondering if the new FLIR ONE is priced to kill the SEEK.
Aurora
Aurora
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If it is hackable for reso then that would be it
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Sadly all indicators to date are that the LEPTON is an 80x60 microbolometer. It is, however, a well sorted camera module which is more than can be said for the present SEEK camera.
I need decent resolution (160x120 or greater) for electronics work but there are many users who would be happy with a more general thermal view combined with the MSX that provides the all important CONTEXT to the picture.
The question for buyers will be:
Do I want a ground breaking medium resolution thermal camera module from a 'start-up' company that has some image quality issues, and no sign of rectification to date,..... or do I settle for a similarly priced lower resolution module with MSX that is well sorted and from a company that has an excellent track record in the TIC manufacturing industry. When put in these terms, SEEK Thermal look vulnerable. They need to sort the issues with the SEEK camera, and fast.
I am just playing Devil's advocate here but FLIR are likely confident that their new babies will make a splash that will overshadow the troubled SEEK module.
Time will tell.
Aurora
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The question for buyers will be:
Do I want a ground breaking medium resolution thermal camera module from a 'start-up' company that has some image quality issues, and no sign of rectification to date,....
...And poor customer service and communication...
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I have already signed up for first dibs on the new mini FLIR One for Android, and I already own a SEEK !
Aurora
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Sadly all indicators to date are that the LEPTON is an 80x60 microbolometer. It is, however, a well sorted camera module which is more than can be said for the present SEEK camera.
I need decent resolution (160x120 or greater) for electronics work but there are many users who would be happy with a more general thermal view combined with the MSX that provides the all important CONTEXT to the picture.
Isn't putting the camera closer to a circuit going to improve resolution or is a (sort of) fixed focus lense preventing that?
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I note there's no calibration slider - this could be using the lepton with the automatic shutter.
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Looking at the gizmodo article I notice two things;
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--QQZtDYTd--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/tmpdnsytzmvpa6cz9meu.jpg)
1. Resolution seems higher than 1st gen... Or just image processing enhancements?
2. The image appears to be wide screen (continues under UI elements), filling the entire 16:9 iPhone screen. 80x60 is 4:3. Are they cropping (which would be stupid) or some software magic to fill in the space under the UI elements?
EDIT: they're being very vague (from FAQ);
The new FLIR ONE’s more powerful thermal camera has
been upgraded to generate image quality equal to or better than the original in every respect.
When combined with the VGA visible camera, FLIR ONE creates a crisper and clearer 640x480
image than ever before.
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same lepton sensor but better resolution, assume we can improve the current flir one by changing the firmware data .
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FLIR CEO Andy Teich at International CES 2015: http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI (http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI)
See 0:50
He says it's using a new lepton sensor with four tines the resolution! That's 160x120 (or a different ratio if it's really 16:9)
RIP seek
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Whoops! The much higher resolution gave Seek a significant edge over Lepton for some applications, despite the noise and gradient issues. But 206x156 isn't a significant advantage over 160x120. If FLIR chooses to deliver a 160x120 Lepton at the same price point ($250), Seek is sunk.
I really hope that's not how this plays out. I'd like to see FLIR face enough competition to drive them to 320x240 in a consumer module. (Of course, I'd also like to see 30hz/60hz, and that's probably not in the cards any time soon.)
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New higher resolution LEPTON is a SEEK killer. It all comes down to the image quality and SEEK just isn't there yet.
It would not surprise me at all if FLIR borged SEEK Thermal at some point in the future.
My interest in the new FLIR One Android version has increased greatly with the resolution news.
Aurora
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On the other hand, if FLIR takes several quarters to start shipping the module (like they did with the original ONE), maybe Seek can do something during that delay.
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If the new Flir can also be hacked for menu features that would be another advantage, this in itself is a huge fun.
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It would not surprise me at all if FLIR borged SEEK Thermal at some point in the future.
..but what does Seek have that Flir would want?
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On the other hand, if FLIR takes several quarters to start shipping the module (like they did with the original ONE), maybe Seek can do something during that delay.
I think Flir went through a bit of a learning curve on their entry to the consumer space last time - hopefully next time things will go more smoothly (and they'll launch worldwide).
I think Seek's biggest problem is that they appear to be a one-product company, in a market that may well fad significantly when the novelty of "toy" thrmal imagers wars off.
Their sensor isn't good enough, nor sufficiently easy to integrate to be a threat to Lepton in the industrial market.
If the new Lepton really is 160x120, and has similar sensitivity and price to the old one, I can't see how anyone can compete with it - having Flir's signal-processing magic "baked in" is a huge advantage to lower volume developers.
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@Mike,
3 possible reasons
1. FLIR may not want anyone else buying SEEK to make use of the embryonic development that has been carried out on the new 12um microbolometer. Remember FLIR tried to stop its development and failed. Hence the 'Patent' pixels
2. There may be rights to the new 12um microbolometer that FLIR wish to gain control over ?
3. FLIR has a history of absorbing the competition ;D
Aurora
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I don't see flir selling the enhanced lepton core at a comparable price to the older module. They have a history of marking up the cost of their inventory. There are lots of 80x60 lepton cores floating around, and they won't be able to move them unless the new core is at least twice the cost if not higher. The pocket imager will obviously use up the remaining inventory of 80x60 modules in the mean time. The new imager is just a cheap shot at Seek, since it was somewhat a successful product model. Whatever price it ends up at, people will come in droves for it, unless Seek manages to fix the image quality issues of their current module.
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I don't see flir selling the enhanced lepton core at a comparable price to the older module. They have a history of marking up the cost of their inventory. There are lots of 80x60 lepton cores floating around,
How do you know they have a lot of inventory?
Why would they make a ton of 80x60s if they knew a bigger one was coming?
..of course we're assuming the current part is actually 80x60 ;D
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FLIR CEO Andy Teich at International CES 2015: http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI (http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI)
See 0:50
He says it's using a new lepton sensor with four tines the resolution! That's 160x120 (or a different ratio if it's really 16:9)
RIP seek
Is it possible that he's talking about using a native 80 x 60 sensor with SuperResolution-like enhancements?
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FLIR CEO Andy Teich at International CES 2015: http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI (http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI)
See 0:50
He says it's using a new lepton sensor with four tines the resolution! That's 160x120 (or a different ratio if it's really 16:9)
RIP seek
Is it possible that he's talking about using a native 80 x 60 sensor with SuperResolution-like enhancements?
That is possible, but he specifically states that it's a new sensor. I would assume any super resolution would be processed on the phone, not the lepton sensor.
Another image posted by ArsTechnica;
(http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/JT3A2006.jpg)
That image looks to good to be 80x60, or is the MSX messing with my eyes?
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The buyers remorse is strong with the Seek Thermal... sigh. As is such the risk with any early adoption.
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From the sales FAQ it directs you to: http://www.flir.com/flirone2015. (http://www.flir.com/flirone2015.) In the video it says it's a brand new Lepton sensor.
Four additional documents on the press page: http://www.flir.com/flirone/press.cfm (http://www.flir.com/flirone/press.cfm)
From their press release..."The FLIR ONE will be available for pre-order online from FLIR.com mid-year and will be available through retail partners across the globe later this year." ... and ... "Developers for Android will gain access to the SDK in the spring."
-Mike
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From the sales FAQ it directs you to: http://www.flir.com/flirone2015. (http://www.flir.com/flirone2015.) In the video it says it's a brand new Lepton sensor.
Four additional documents on the press page: http://www.flir.com/flirone/press.cfm (http://www.flir.com/flirone/press.cfm)
From their press release..."The FLIR ONE will be available for pre-order online from FLIR.com mid-year and will be available through retail partners across the globe later this year." ... and ... "Developers for Android will gain access to the SDK in the spring."
-Mike
So, yeah. At best the same delay as for last year's iPhone-5 model, and more likely an even longer delay. This is sounding more and more like just a preemptive PR strike.
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It would not surprise me at all if FLIR borged SEEK Thermal at some point in the future.
This would absolutely, positively, never, ever happen...ever...in a billion years. Ever. Not even remotely. Never.
To understand why you need to understand some of the history between Seek's founder, Bill Parrish, and FLIR. And then add the Raytheon relationship on top of that.
Here's an article that came up with some simple googling:
http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2011/05/20/flir-to-pay-39m-to-settle-lawsuit.html?page=all (http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2011/05/20/flir-to-pay-39m-to-settle-lawsuit.html?page=all)
If anything, the competition in the phone thermal camera space has a bit of a personal touch given the history between the two parties. There are much bigger things at stake outside of cool phone gadgets. Consideration of Lepton and Seek's equivalent as an OEM core for much higher volume applications are where the real $ will be made. The phone attachments are simply vehicles to raise awareness of what IR can do for the average joe.
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Did they say if this thing can see past 100c ?
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I have found possible reference to actual resolution of new lepton core. It supposed to be 180x120. That would explain the wide thermal images.
"The resolution has also been upgraded, squeezing 180x120 pixels from the thermal camera."
http://www.electronista.com/articles/15/01/07/upgraded.thermal.imaging.for.mobile.devices/#ixzz3OJA19uDz (http://www.electronista.com/articles/15/01/07/upgraded.thermal.imaging.for.mobile.devices/#ixzz3OJA19uDz)
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Looks like they got rid of the manual NUC requirement as well for both new products. I wonder if they are using a internal shutter on them or if the "new" sensor does not need it?
Given FLIR's history it really makes me think that the lepton really is a 320x240 part with some internal efuses blown or the like to dumb it down to the spec listed. Re-watching Mike's tear down of the first Flir One the size of the sensor window behind the lens looks like it could not be made larger and still fit in the package. Some one would likely need to take a thermal image to see the sensor die behind the window or destructively remove it to be 100%.
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As the TG165 LEPTON has a FFC shutter, I hope that they have used it in their new products.
Whilst it is possible to run a microbolometer without an FFC shutter, I am uncertain how well such would perform at this price point, especially if temperature measurements are to be reasonably accurate.
Aurora
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Barely...
• Scene temperature range: -4°F to 248°F (-20° to 120°C)
• Operating temperature: 32°F to 95°F (0°C to 35°C)
http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf (http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf)
Did they say if this thing can see past 100c ?
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SEEK Thermal have just released a new app to remove gradient issue. Seems to work so they may have made some breathing room in light of the new FLIR units.
Is this new app release a coincidence or have SEEK seen the threat to their product and reacted ? We may never know.
Aurora
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http://youtu.be/SQlWjlSy6HM?t=21s (http://youtu.be/SQlWjlSy6HM?t=21s)
See ~21s
I notice the frame rate is very low, much lower than the 9hz of the original FLIR One. Could this just be because this model is a prototype, or could something else be changed?
When Mike took apart the original FLIR one, he found a full Linux based system running in it. For price and form factor reasons, could it be possible that FLIR has removed this and now rely on the phone for much more of the processing, resulting in reduced performance?
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there is almost nothing to do for Iphone, except the MSX calculation
see data sheet of Flir Leepton sensor:
http://www.pureengineering.com/projects/lepton (http://www.pureengineering.com/projects/lepton)
The Flat-Field Correction (FFC) normalization is inside the lepton firmware
LEP_RunSysFFCNormalization() Executes the FFC command.
thermal data rate:
TWI 400 kHz
80x60 Pixel
16 Bit (RAW is a function of temperature)
with 9Hz frame rate we get
-> 80x60x2x9=86.000 Bytes/sec
plus protocol overhead
but the visible VGA image:
640x480x9(Hz)
= 2.7 MB/sec :(
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It's great to see cheaper thermal imaging devices being available, I recently got someone to come do a basic thermal imaging of inside my house to see where I'm losing heat as I could not find any place that would rent a thermal imager. They start at 5k and up but it seems devices like this may be great for the average consumer that does not need the extra features and accuracy of a full blown imager. The guy who did it said even for him 5k was a lot since it takes many home inspections to pay for it and by that time it might be time to replace/upgrade.
I'll definitely look into buying one of these if/when it comes out in Canada.
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Internal battery in the new Flir One! Awesome, with that it might actually work on my Nexus 4, which can act as a USB host for communication, but doesn't do power delivery, which is why the SEEK doesn't work with it. I'm kinda excited about that one :)
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here are some C2 specs:
IR 80 x 60 (4800 pixel)
Thermal Sensitivity <0.10°C
Minimum Focus Distance Thermal: 0.15 m (0.49 ft.); MSX®: 1.0 m (3.3 ft.)
Object temperature range -10°C to +150°C (14 to 302°F)
Digital Camera 640 x 480 pixels
I've seen it and played with it, it's really cool and light, nice image quality when MSX is active
Availability for Europe March the 2nd, we will get them on March the 1st and start doing some tests.
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Some test results for the C2 would be cool. I'm wondering how suitable it is for electronics to detect hot spots on a circuit board (close up).
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Yes nctnico, this is what we also wanto to check since our business is mainly electronic applications.
We have some demo board here and as soon as we got the stock we will run some test.
If you like we can post here some picture with the evidence of the distance to target.
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It's interesting to note that the c2 specs listed above claim the older 80x60 sensor can achieve 150C. Yet the new sensor can only achieve 120C. The new sensor was expected increase the maximum temperature sensitivity, however only marginally. This information, if the sources are accurate, suggests some fragmentation. I'm curious as to the actual maximum and minimum temperatures these sensors can accurately measure. FLIR seems to be injecting bad info or the press is misreporting the facts. I want solid specifications. I ditched the Seek module in favor of the newer lepton module, simply because the temperature sensitivity and noise was horrible on the Seek. I hope this was a wise move.
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I have been approached by PASS(UK) advising me of the new C2 release and inviting what is effectively a pre-order reservation. I replied that I was more interested in the new One for Android due to the higher resolution offered.I hope they will write to me again when pre-ordering of the New One model becomes possible.
I am disappointed that the C2 appears to be only 80x60. An opportunity missed ? I still consider 160x120 to be the minimum that I would find practical for generalist applications including electronics. I already own several NEC AVIO F30 (160x120) compact thermal cameras, so know what 160x120 resolution can achieve.
Even with MSX, a 80x60 camera is limited especially in the near field when looking at small targets like SMT components.
Aurora
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ciao efahrenholz, I'm not sure many people here are aware about the cust help FLIR website where you can find all full specs data sheet without registering an account.
here is the link to the C2's PDF, check out if it answers to you questions.
http://80.77.70.144/DsDownload/Assets/72001-0101-en-US_A4.pdf
we should get a good amount of C2 this week and then start doing some test and as promised publish images here.
if you and other people are interested, we will offer discount code and free shipment to EU.
discount code sent via PM
here is the link to C2 product page in our webshop http://www.batterfly.com/shop/flir-c2 (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/flir-c2)
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Judging from the specs the C2 isn't really suitable for close-up work for electronics. At the closest distance each pixel is still over
2mm edit: 1mm in size.
edit: 1mm already sounds better than 2mm.
edit2: Why the name Batter Fly? Sounds like fry batter >:D
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custhelp doen't offer the FOV caluclator for C2 ... >:(
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ciao nctnico, I can be boring ;)
Batter: comes from the first product I start selling which was a battery analyzer
Fly: rapresent a small company taking off
does it make sense? thanks for asking
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FLIR just informed us we need to wait 10 days to get the C2s >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
the waiting drive us crazy
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FLIR C2 is arriving today! as soon as they step in we take some images and publish here
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here we are, C2 available now free shipping to Europe don't forget to ask discount code PM
I start a new post named "FLIR C2 images"
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-c2-images/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-c2-images/)
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here we are, C2 available now free shipping to Europe don't forget to ask discount code PM
I start a new post named "FLIR C2 images"
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-c2-images/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-c2-images/)
Take it Apart!
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Any progress yet on the C8 hack? :-DD
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FYI the new FLIR One has two detectors in it, which bumps up the resolution and overall quality.
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FYI the new FLIR One has two detectors in it, which bumps up the resolution and overall quality.
The new F1 has the new 160x120 Lepton, presumably also the MSX camera
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FYI the new FLIR One has two detectors in it, which bumps up the resolution and overall quality.
Hmmm I didn't think that was the case, but will confirm with my source!
FYI the new FLIR One has two detectors in it, which bumps up the resolution and overall quality.
The new F1 has the new 160x120 Lepton, presumably also the MSX camera
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FYI the new FLIR One has two detectors in it, which bumps up the resolution and overall quality.
Hmmm I didn't think that was the case, but will confirm with my source!
Flir have publically stated the new F1 is 160x120.
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FYI the new FLIR One has two detectors in it, which bumps up the resolution and overall quality.
Hmmm I didn't think that was the case, but will confirm with my source!
Flir have publically stated the new F1 is 160x120.
Must have missed that! I wonder if they'll have the cores available soon and at a similar price to the 80x60.
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So the new F1 will have better resolution than their C2?
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Yes.
A more powerful thermal sensor with four times the resolution for crisper and clearer thermal images. http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf (http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf)
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Was it ever shown that the 4x resolution is because of a new Lepton, and not a new Lepton firmware? </wishfulthinking>
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Was it ever shown that the 4x resolution is because of a new Lepton, and not a new Lepton firmware? </wishfulthinking>
Lepton sensor is definitely 80x60 physical pixels - see my extreme teardown
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FLIR have posted some SDK documentation videos (for android & iOS) for the new FLIR One on vimeo: https://vimeo.com/flironedeveloper/videos (https://vimeo.com/flironedeveloper/videos)
Hopefully the FLIR One gen 2 release is imminent... I've been waiting too long for this.
We also get to see some images straight from the new FLIR One in the screen recordings. The quality certainly seems better than Gen 1.
(http://puu.sh/ifd98/d71e9384fa.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/ifdcb/ef6a335343.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/ifdex/dd82ce4ac3.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/ifdhq/b3cbf3366b.jpg)
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FLIR One app showed up on Google Play...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.flir.flirone
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One interesting bit of information is that FLIR updated the FLIR one application on Jun 15th adding support for the second generation F1. 1.5.2 was highly stable with Rosebud on 1.0.9 firmware but since the 2.0.1 update it's extremely unstable evidently causing interconnectivity issues between the F1 and the host device requiring either a reboot or sled removal. This happens to me constantly so much so that the application is unusable. Seems Seek is making forward progress on the software side and FLIR is making negative progress. :(
180x120 would be very interesting, I'll be watching the thread. The 80x60 is nice but 180x120 would be fantastic if it lands at a sub $300 USD price point.
Regarding the internal battery on the 2nd generation F1, I wonder what it's capacity is?
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Aurora linked a cost analysis study for the Seek Thermal in another thread, and even if the images where blurry (on purpose since they want you probably to purchase it) it looked like the manufacturing cost of the Seek is under $100. So they have a nice margin to play with.
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Here is a link to the PDF of the SEEK camera costing report, but it contains blurred data as they want to sell teh complete report for more than $3000.
http://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/S-C_RS201_Seek-Thermal-Camera_Sample_V2.pdf (http://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/S-C_RS201_Seek-Thermal-Camera_Sample_V2.pdf)
And the earlier version in case it is different:
http://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/S-C_RS201_Seek-Thermal-Camera_Sample.pdf (http://www.systemplus.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/S-C_RS201_Seek-Thermal-Camera_Sample.pdf)
An interesting insight into the cost of production even so.
Aurora
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Regarding the internal battery on the 2nd generation F1, I wonder what it's capacity is?
Page at Google Paly says 45 mins
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Interesting so suspect LiPo ~350mAh - ~550mAh for PHY case constraints? Mike/Aurora would love to see a teardown on the F1 gen 2; if indeed it's 180x120 I'm going to be amazed at Moore's law accelerated if it's a Lepton. Hopefully the price point is sub ~300USD which makes it competitive. Curious to see how they handle the solenoid and automatic shuttering whilst they ... ... ... evolve a form factor and auto-shuttering that's currently available.
Been fairly happy with the 80x60 for approximations and under visible light the MSX blending helps but 2.0.1 FLIR ONE app was horrific. 1.5.2 was stable and if they're ushering this out to the generic public without proper QA it points to QA/QC issues and a "rush to market" competitive model.
All in all, great to see a comparison. Good friend went with the Seek so we're actively (as scientifically as possible) comparing and contrasting the models.
Cheers,
Nathan
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I think it's almost confirmed that the new FLIR one will be much higher res.
I found FLIR's dev site... not very well hidden: http://www.flir.com/dev/flirone/ (http://www.flir.com/dev/flirone/)
Under how the new FLIR one is better than the old one;
"A more powerful thermal sensor with four times the resolution for crisper and clearer thermal images."
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FLIR just released firmware 1.0.11 for the FLIR ONE gen1 which addresses the connectivity issues introduced in FLIR ONE 2.0.1. It takes a few tries to get the firmware to "take" due to the connectivity issues. Also, a battery of 100% is reported as less than 50% (seems math error) but 99% worked fine.
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http://www.flir.com/flirone/display/?id=69324 (http://www.flir.com/flirone/display/?id=69324)
New FLIR One Released.
iOS avaliable now, Android still pre-order (ugh)
$249 USD, same price as seek.
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http://www.flir.com/flirone/display/?id=69324 (http://www.flir.com/flirone/display/?id=69324)
New FLIR One Released.
iOS avaliable now, Android still pre-order (ugh)
$249 USD, same price as seek.
No mention of resolution though....
Just ordered the Android & it says delivery expected Jul 30-Aug 13 :'(
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I#'ve dropped my contact at FLIR a the question about res, hopefully he'll be able to enlighten us, as it'll be a shame if it is just the 80x60 and very not cool that they haven't stated it.
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No mention of resolution though....
http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf (http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf)
How are the new FLIR ONEs better than the original?
Available in either iOS or Android hardware versions, FLIR ONE features:
• A more powerful thermal sensor with four times the resolution for crisper and clearer thermal images.
• Automatic tuning. There is no need to manually tune the device for optimum use.
• A lighter-weight design that is less than a third the weight of the original
-
No mention of resolution though....
• A more powerful thermal sensor with four times the resolution for crisper and clearer thermal images.
Doesn't say if it's spatial resolution or better NETD..
-
No mention of resolution though....
• A more powerful thermal sensor with four times the resolution for crisper and clearer thermal images.
Doesn't say if it's spatial resolution or better NETD..
Well they quote 0.1 degree differences are visible, don't know what the original was specced at.
Nice that the range has increased though (-20° to 120°C)
-
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/2nd-generation-flir-one-camera.html (http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/2nd-generation-flir-one-camera.html)
FLIR CEO Andy Teich says in a Youtube video that the new Lepton core features 4x higher resolution than the old camera. Electronista says that the new Lepton has 180x120 resolution. The older generation Lepton used to have 80 x 60 pixel array.
http://www.macnn.com/articles/15/01/07/upgraded.thermal.imaging.for.mobile.devices/ (http://www.macnn.com/articles/15/01/07/upgraded.thermal.imaging.for.mobile.devices/)
The resolution has also been upgraded, squeezing 180x120 pixels from the thermal camera.
-
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/2nd-generation-flir-one-camera.html (http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/2nd-generation-flir-one-camera.html)
FLIR CEO Andy Teich says in a Youtube video that the new Lepton core features 4x higher resolution than the old camera. Electronista says that the new Lepton has 180x120 resolution. The older generation Lepton used to have 80 x 60 pixel array.
http://www.macnn.com/articles/15/01/07/upgraded.thermal.imaging.for.mobile.devices/ (http://www.macnn.com/articles/15/01/07/upgraded.thermal.imaging.for.mobile.devices/)
The resolution has also been upgraded, squeezing 180x120 pixels from the thermal camera.
Both of those are old sources - it's possible they intended a high-res version but subsequently decided to stick with the old sensor.
If it is higher res, why would they not put it in the specs on the product page?
-
Ordered android version
-
Both of those are old sources - it's possible they intended a high-res version but subsequently decided to stick with the old sensor.
If it is higher res, why would they not put it in the specs on the product page?
Find out tomorrow!
Items Ordered: FLIR ONE for iOS
Unit Price: £199.99
Item Total: £199.99
Quantity: 1
Delivery Estimate: 26 Jun 2015
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This review mentions 160x120. Also long boot time suggesting they're still using the clunky linux ARM processor, which can't be good for battery life.
http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link (http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link)
-
Just spoke with my guy at FLIR and he said it is 160x120 :) Hope that clarifies it for some!
-
Just ordered a FLIR One for Android.
Looks like it is priced to be a SEEK camera killer. If the resolution and image quality are as good as I am expecting, this camera will likely make the SEEK look a very poor performer indeed.
It is cheaper than I had expected for the UK.
Affordable decent quality thermal cameras at last :-+ (hopefully ;) )
I will be using mine with a relatively powerful quad core Motorola MOTO G phone.
Aurora
-
Just ordered an iOS version as well.
Est. Delivery Date: Jul 1 - Jul 1, 2015
-
The new FLIR One advertising campaign looks a bit Cheesy though
http://www.flir.co.uk/flirone/ (http://www.flir.co.uk/flirone/) :palm:
:-DD
-
Thanks all for being the test subjects, hopefully we can 100% confirm it's higher resolution so I can tell the wife why I need another F1 after having purchased gen 1 not one month ago |O
-
I suggest you resell your 1st Gen One quickly as the resale value of the lower resolution version is likely to fall significantly once the public get to know of the new model ?
What the new model promises, and hopefully delivers, makes the 1st Generation ONE look cumbersome and very low resolution.
For the thermal camera experimenter this could mean cheap LEPTONs from unwanted 1st Gen ONE units ?
Aurora
-
They have added resolution on their site: http://www.flir.eu/flirone/content/?id=62910#models (http://www.flir.eu/flirone/content/?id=62910#models)
160 × 120 resolution thermal accessory with MSX for Android devices with a microUSB
-
They have added resolution on their site: http://www.flir.eu/flirone/content/?id=62910#models (http://www.flir.eu/flirone/content/?id=62910#models)
160 × 120 resolution thermal accessory with MSX for Android devices with a microUSB
They can't spell 'Lightning' though...
-
iOS versions out of stock now, 1-3 weeks lead time now
-
@Toploser,
I guessed sales would be high for this product. That is why I quickly got myself on what will likely be a long pre-order waiting list for the Android version. If the 2nd Generation is as good as I suspect it will be, expect it to be a very hot seller right up to Christmas :)
FLIR reputation + 19200 pixels + neat format + £199 price = A Hot Product ;D
Aurora
-
iOS versions out of stock now, 1-3 weeks lead time now
Glad I got mine in the nick of time. Been meaning to get one for awhile, but it was never a priority, good thing I waited.
-
Just arrived. It's tiny.
Curious mix of micro USB and Lightning connector - need to carry two charger cables. Otherwise it's verynicely made and feels high quality. Downloaded the app, plugged it in and it works. Can't see any screws or fastenings so I'll leave it in one piece for now. Very pleased.
-
@Toploser
Thanks for the pictures :-+
I eagerly await the arrival of my Android version sometime in July/August :)
Any chance of a thermal image of a warm PCB at the minimum focus distance ? Do you have a ZnSe close-up lens that you can place in front of the thermal lens to see how it performs in close-up on a PCB ? I feel sure such pictures will be of great interest to others, and it will show the improved resolution that is hopefully present :)
Oh, and a thermal image of a cars recently run engine is always pretty impressive. Don't forget the very popular image of a cup of good old English tea either ;D
The only concern I have regarding these units that hang on the the phone is the potential torque induced damage to the I/O connectors. My iPad Lightning connector does not look like it was designed to be used as an anchor point for anything other than a cable. Is the Lightning connector on the ONE mounted in a rubber strain relief to permit some movement by any chance ?
Thanks again for the very fast posting of images.
Enjoy your new camera :-+ I am Soooo envious :)
Thanks to your kindness, I now have an excellent 3D printer. I will hopefully be able to produce a suitable ZnSe lens holder arrangement that will hold a 12mm diameter close-up lens on the front of the camera. I will need to consider the best securing method and ergonomics. With such a close-up capability the ONE will be a very useful tool to have around for PCB diagnostics (up to a temperature of 120C ).
Best Wishes, as always
Fraser
-
Another useful test image would be an image of a very sharp edge at a slight angle, which can be useful to judge resolution by the jaggies.
I'm still yet to be 100% convinced there is a new Lepton with 120x160 physical pixels.
-
If it can be done in a car or a tent over the next few days I will try...
-
Happy Holidays Ian :-+
Fraser
-
@Mike,
Are you thinking possible interpolation within the ROIC ? I wondered about such as well. A risky move by FLIR though as it is bound to be discovered by the tech community.
I recall how clever IRISYS was with its limited pixel count sensors though.
Fraser
-
Another useful test image would be an image of a very sharp edge at a slight angle, which can be useful to judge resolution by the jaggies.
I'm still yet to be 100% convinced there is a new Lepton with 120x160 physical pixels.
See the heatsink pic I posted elsewhere
-
I have asked my friends at FLIR to confirm the the physical pixel specification of the Lepton core that is used in the 2nd Generation ONE. I also asked if interpolation was being used, to avoid any confusion ;)
Should hear back from them today.
I like what I see in Toplosers images though. Some nice image processing going on. A thermally low contrast image will show up any noise issues as the ONE will close down its thermal span to its minimum available. FLIR may of course have avoided obvious noise using either image processing or by setting a minimum possible span that avoids such. It will be interesting to know what the minimum span is on the new ONE unit. Anything greater than about 15C avoids obvious noise issues.
Aurora
-
@Mike,
Are you thinking possible interpolation within the ROIC ? I wondered about such as well. A risky move by FLIR though as it is bound to be discovered by the tech community.
I recall how clever IRISYS was with its limited pixel count sensors though.
Fraser
I don't know - maybe I'm just being overly cynical, but I'll believe it when I see the scope data, or at least a side-by-side comparison.
They have been rather reticent until now about the resolution - I suspect that could be that on launch back in Jan they were unsure of they could ship a true 160x120 so keeping their options open.
Seems like a 160x120 would probably need a bigger die, and possibly a bigger package as there's a limit to how far they could shrink it - I don't know if it's the small pixel size or other factors that made the Seek so disappointing.
-
It would be a shock if the 2nd Generation Lepton contained a version of the Raytheon core used in the SEEK :-DD
Remember the Patent dispute that made SEEK Thermal blank every 15th pixel on the die ?
I am only jesting but funnier things have happened :)
I still have a problem believing that Raytheon would produce a dud microbolometer design. It may just have needed a company like FLIR to work their magic with its output ?
Aurora
-
Has anyone connected one to a windows/linux pc to see if you can get raw data out of it?
Thanks
Kihon.
-
There is a good review in here:
http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/ (http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/)
Frame rate looks great.
-
@miguelvp,
I note that FLIR have provided a compatibility table and several Android phones seem to suffer from poor recording rate though. A bug that FLIR will hopefully iron out in due course.
Aurora
-
An interesting aspect to the New 2nd GEN 'ONE' launch is how keen FLIR are to encourage 3rd party applications for their new baby. Very forward thinking if you want to dominate a market. Engage with the clever independent developers to find and exploit new uses for the camera. The iOS SDK was made available some time ago and I understand that some 3rd party apps are near release. The Android SDK is promised to follow in July.
http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf (http://www.flir.com/flirone/press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-FAQ.pdf)
Hopefully the 'Maker' and 'Coder' fraternities will find something they like about the camera and help it to develop beyond FLIRs original design.
Much will rest on whether the new camera is truly 160x120 pixel resolution in hardware as that is, IMHO, where useful thermal imagery begins. 80x60 is just a tad too low for me.
On my 'Wish list' is the ability to connect the ONE to a PC/SBC/RPi or whatever so that it can be used as part of a larger 'system'. It may be that this will not be possible, but the Android version does at least provide the opportunity. The lads with Android SEEK cameras have them hooked up to all manner of hardware :-+
Aurora
-
I suggest you resell your 1st Gen One quickly as the resale value of the lower resolution version is likely to fall significantly once the public get to know of the new model ?
What the new model promises, and hopefully delivers, makes the 1st Generation ONE look cumbersome and very low resolution.
For the thermal camera experimenter this could mean cheap LEPTONs from unwanted 1st Gen ONE units ?
Aurora
So the good news is that I have until Jul 11 to return it to Amazon under the reason "Cheaper elsewhere" since FLIR dropped it to $150 and I paid $199. I'm an ethical and honest person so being able to return it for this reason is acceptable versus claiming "broken" or "not useful" or some other such rubbish =) I'm waiting to see what you guys think about it, the auto-shuttering, and if there are any major issues/failures (such as the thermal gradient issues w/Seek) before I return it and pick up a 2nd generation. Honestly, I also like the sled versus the hanging dongle. All in all, happy with the Gen 1, excited about the Gen 2, and might keep both. Thanks for everyone who has shared and participated in this great community, I eagerly read your posts!
-
Just arrived. It's tiny.
Curious mix of micro USB and Lightning connector - need to carry two charger cables. Otherwise it's verynicely made and feels high quality. Downloaded the app, plugged it in and it works. Can't see any screws or fastenings so I'll leave it in one piece for now. Very pleased.
Would you be willing to share some images with us with the MSX blending disabled? I'm very curious to see the quality of the IR only images. Thank you for taking the time to share with us.
-
I have just received a response regarding whether a new higher resolution Lepton is used in teh new ONE camera.
"Hi Fraser -
It is a new Lepton sensor with 4X the thermal resolution of the previous version.
Regards,
Tom "
Tom hasn't gone beyond the official statements to date. I specifically asked him whether interpolation was in use and what the physical resolution of the sensor is. "4X the thermal resolution" and "a new Lepton sensor" could in truth translate as a new Lepton core using the same 80x60 microbolometer feeding an ROIC that interpolates it to 4X the physical resolution before presenting the data at its output pins. It would, in theory be a core with 4X the resolution at the output....albeit interpolated.
I suspect we are all familiar with the games played by Chinese OEM's claiming high resolutions for their webcams, USB microscopes etc. Many are just interpolating low resolution CMOS imaging chips to silly resolutions. I do hope that FLIR are not trying to pull a smoke and mirrors trick here.
Mike and I may just be very pessimistic, but it is interesting that the physical sensor spec is absent and that the FLIR techs are are just quoting a vague 'party line' to me.
I will go back to FLIR and ask for specifics and see what they say.
Aurora
-
Mike and I may just be very pessimistic, but it is interesting that the physical sensor spec is absent and that the FLIR techs are are just quoting a vague 'party line' to me.
Hoping you or Mike get yours soon so we can know for sure, otherwise it seems we might be dealing with some wordsmithing as you've described. I'm not insinuating that's the case but it would be nice to definitively know if this is a Lepton 80x60 or not; it's interesting that there is no updated information on the Lepton/FLIR page regarding a resolution increase that would coincide with the release of the second generation.
-
Not my best drafting by any means but I think the question I have just posed to FLIR will elicit a response that resolves the matter, one way or the other. I do not think I left FLIR any 'wriggle room' with my question bit we shall see.
"Hi,
I have pre-ordered the 2nd Generation FLIR ONE for Android and need to clarify something about the new cameras thermal specification. I have already been advised that the new LEPTON produces 4X the resolution of the old 80x60 core, but this could be achieved through interpolation within the ROIC.
I own and use several FLIR thermal cameras and for my applications I need true 160 pixel x 120 pixel physical (optical) resolution from my cameras. That is to say, interpolation from 80x60 up to 160x120 would not work for me.
Please will you confirm the physical pixel count of the Microbolometer used in the new 2nd Generation Lepton core
Kindest Regards
Fraser"
The weird thing is that I will probably still proceed with the purchase of the new FLIR ONE even if it does turn out to be interpolated ! If the image is detailed enough for my needs, its good enough for the money. Part of me still thinks this new FLIR ONE is too cheap and that could be explained by the use of the old LEPTON technology coupled to a bit of FLIR 'magic' ;D
Aurora
-
... I need true 160 pixel x 120 pixel physical (optical) resolution from my cameras. That is to say, interpolation from 80x60 up to 160x120 would not work for me.
Very well said and posed.
Part of me still thinks this new FLIR ONE is too cheap and that could be explained by the use of the old LEPTON technology coupled to a bit of FLIR 'magic' ;D
This is where I am concerned as well and the lack of a coinciding update in resolution on http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=62648 (http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=62648)
-
I am not impressed with the sample shots so far. My gut feeling is that it is upscaled. Hard to tell with the MSX mess going on.
Really hoping it's just a poor lens/focus problem. My NEC Avio that has true 160x120 gets far better imagery.
EDIT: Other much earlier press shots look much better. Maybe they swapped out for the crappier Lepton for mass production, or a software bug?
-
Would be cool if they implemented sensor movement as a way of doubling the resolution. Sort of how Olympus does it on their e-m5-II cameras.
-
"4X the thermal resolution" and "a new Lepton sensor" could in truth translate as a new Lepton core using the same 80x60 microbolometer feeding an ROIC that interpolates it to 4X the physical resolution before presenting the data at its output pins. It would, in theory be a core with 4X the resolution at the output....albeit interpolated.
Or 80x60 with 2 more bits of NETD
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You can pre-order the Android version on Amazon too, by the way.
(http://puu.sh/iEkXk/a7a2f601b1.png)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W5PRY52 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W5PRY52)
-
Well at least the 1st gen ones are going for just $150.
I'm not sure why they decided to put a battery that can't be removed, what would happen to the module if the battery dies?
-
Well at least the 1st gen ones are going for just $150.
I'm not sure why they decided to put a battery that can't be removed, what would happen to the module if the battery dies?
There's no such thing as "can't be removed..." ;D
-
Well at least the 1st gen ones are going for just $150.
I'm not sure why they decided to put a battery that can't be removed, what would happen to the module if the battery dies?
There's no such thing as "can't be removed..." ;D
Was talking about your average consumer ;D
-
Sadly the 'sealed case' designs seem to be common with mobile phones and the FLIR may ve just following the trend. Some mobile phones are almost designed to prevent any attempt to change the battery..... built in obsolescence ? The throw away society is sadly evident in many consumer products.
I can see the technically minded wishing to upgrade the battery for longer run time. Hopefully FLIR have not glued or welded the case together. Hidden internal clips or screws would be my bet. A quick pass through my Faxitron X-Ray will reveal its secrets. I suspect one will be opened well before my unit arrives in July/August though.
Aurora
-
The new FLIR ONE has FCC approval....... probably because it attaches to a transmitting device.
http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf (http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf)
So what you may say ? Well FCC approval often means that an FCC test report exists and they often contain images of internal PCB's etc ;) Case fixings may also be visible ?
I have no time to search the FCC database at the moment but will take a look later.
Aurora
-
I did a search for FLIR's vendor code but search for IWK only reveals bluetooth-enabled Extech multimeters
-
Hopefully FLIR have not glued or welded the case together. Hidden internal clips or screws would be my bet. A quick pass through my Faxitron X-Ray will reveal its secrets. I suspect one will be opened well before my unit arrives in July/August though.
Thumbnail opens it ;)
-
Thanks Toploser. I should have known you would investigate whether it pops apart.
Thank you FLIR for making battery replacement a painless exercise
This is good news after a bad day.
1. Having to sort out the garage .... a nightmare ...how did I accumulate so much :-//
2. Getting burnt on an Inframetrics PM280E purchase. Stirling Cooler has no Helium fill left :'(
Hope you are enjoying your camping. Are you at Glastonbury by any chance ?
Aurora
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The new FLIR ONE has FCC approval....... probably because it attaches to a transmitting device.
http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf (http://www.flir.com/flirone/Press/FLIR-ONE-Android-iOS-Fast-Facts.pdf)
So what you may say ? Well FCC approval often means that an FCC test report exists and they often contain images of internal PCB's etc ;) Case fixings may also be visible ?
I have no time to search the FCC database at the moment but will take a look later.
Aurora
AIUI the online file stuff only applies to intentional radiators. there are other classes of FCC listing for general EMC.
-
A pity.
It would have been good to see inside the little beastie ;D
Aurora
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It would have been good to see inside the little beastie ;D
Thumbnail opens it ;)
So where are the photos then...?
-
So where are the photos then...?
I'm logistically challenged today, tomorrow is another day though...
Patience Grasshopper!
-
For now:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image1.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image2.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image3.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image4.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image5.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image6.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image7.JPG
Any requests?
-
Any requests?
Peel the copper tape off! ;D
-
Any requests?
Peel the copper tape off! ;D
Why did I bother asking!!
2 mins...
-
Pre-empted your next request...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image8.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image9.JPG
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Excellent images.... thank you Ian.
It looks to be nicely designed and engineered. :-+
Aurora
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Excellent images.... thank you Ian.
It looks to be nicely designed and engineered. :-+
Aurora
But will it blend?!
-
Nice images TopLoser. The battery seems pretty standard too. So should be a pretty cheap/easy replacement down the road.
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Great one on the pics, TopLoser
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Hmm, I ordered an iOS V2 and it says ships 2-3 weeks. If it turns out that the sensor is actually just a tweaked old Lepton, I guess this gives me time to cancel the order.
-
For now:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image1.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image2.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image3.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image4.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image5.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image6.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image7.JPG
Any requests?
Put in IMG tags for the lazy ones (like me) among us:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image1.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image2.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image3.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image4.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image5.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image6.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image7.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image8.JPG)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2063383/xxx/image9.JPG)
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All back together without too much trouble. The battery connector is a right pain to reinsert, I lost my temper with it and took it off the board, soldered the battery wires directly onto the board.
-
Anybody want to take a guess as to whether that 4 pin socket between the Lightning connector and the board is just plain USB2.0 connection.
-
The engineering around the lightning connector looks excellent. Better than I would have expected on a budget device. To FLIR's mechanical design team......well done :-+
-
Anybody want to take a guess as to whether that 4 pin socket between the Lightning connector and the board is just plain USB2.0 connection.
Odds on that the Android version is exactly the same main board with just a different interface board with a different USB connector on it.
I bet the Android hardware is all done and in boxes ready to ship, it's just the software that's holding back the release.
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@Seanb,
That would make good sense as the I/O connector assembly would be the only difference at manufacture without needing to change the rest of the design. Hence the use of a micro USB for charging on both the iOS and Android versions. They had to pick one and Micro USB is becoming the standard these days.
I do not know about lightning interfaces but I assumed it was just a standard USB2.0 lineup with some additional pins for the Apple ID chip ?
Aurora
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Lepton looks the same, except there is a chip in the corner which is unpopulated on the ones I've seen. Could just be a driver for the shutter though.
-
Or the X2 interpolation asic ;D
Aurora
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I received a reply to my question to FLIR CS on the topic of the 2nd Gen ONE resolution.
See it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/actual-resolution-of-flir-one-v2/msg701871/?topicseen#msg701871 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/actual-resolution-of-flir-one-v2/msg701871/?topicseen#msg701871)
It was not the answer I was expecting !
Do FLIR employ politicians in Customer Services I wonder ?
Aurora
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Just a received a response from FLIR in in the USA :-+ That was super fast, I only just sent the question ! I wonder if they are reading this thread ?
"Hi Fraser,
From the information that I have received the second generation of the FLIR ONE uses an array of 160x120 PHYSICAL Pixels and that these are active in the images produced"
So there you have it. The best I can do on the support front. A confirmation that the microbolometer is 160x120 active physical pixels.
Aurora
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SlashGear got their hands on a preproduction android model. This is the first time it's been seen outside of FLIRs marketing images.
http://www.slashgear.com/flir-one-thermal-camera-for-android-hands-on-30391243/ (http://www.slashgear.com/flir-one-thermal-camera-for-android-hands-on-30391243/)
Looks like there's some weird banding going on in the images, hopefully that's just due to the preproduction nature of the device.
-
Got my iOS model today, pretty cool. Works well, minor annoyance though. Can't use volume controls as a trigger to snap a pic. Also would like to remove the Flir logo from the pictures.
-
Nice images.
Aurora
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Thanks I uploaded one more. The close ups are definitely problematic, due to lack of parallax compensation of the two cameras. Hopefully it's something they can update in software.
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Are any resellers (with paypal payment support) already selling it (flir one, ios version)?
Edit: With paypal - found none. Anyway rs-components solds cheaper than flir.eu.
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Ok so I have found that you can adjust the parallax error manually. By just touching and holding on the image a slider will show up which lets you adjust how the two images stitch. Not automatic but it works.
I can now get closeups to align perfectly.
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This might be interesting for all new-owners of flir/seek modules:
I really like this grip handle that comes with Therm-App:
(http://i58.tinypic.com/20kcg0i.jpg)
So I investigated a bit and found:
(http://www.nipon-scope.com/images/products/tripod/hand-grip-nol.jpg)
http://www.nipon-scope.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_25&products_id=166 (http://www.nipon-scope.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_25&products_id=166)
(http://www.alter.si/tabla/files/2250787-holder.jpg)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281688672757 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/281688672757)
With this two items I should get really close to that "Therm-App" holder.
I also bought selfie stick which I'll mount on the work table for electronics inspection:
(http://www.boogabuy.com/image/data/Electronics/Cameras%20Accessories/Tripods%20Supports/HHI-10686/84588f5e-047d-455a-987c-2a7db8205fec.jpg)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121486526066 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121486526066)
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Can MSX be turned off? It would be interesting to see how the thermal images actually look like - closeups too.
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Doesn't look like you can disable MSX.
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Can MSX be turned off? It would be interesting to see how the thermal images actually look like - closeups too.
You can put a label over the camera, but if totally opaque, you get camera noise, a translucent label can work. Not pretty but does the job. An option in the software (especially with the higher res of the new model) would be nice though.
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Or you cold take photos at night in complete darkness. ;)
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Can MSX be turned off? It would be interesting to see how the thermal images actually look like - closeups too.
You can turn off MSX on the final images using FLIR Tools software. I took some of the images posted here and turned off MSX on them. I've also used FLIR Tools to add some random measurements and changed some colour pallets.
Finally, you can use it to enable Thermal Fusion or PIP (normally only available on more expensive cameras) or even turn down the MSX intensity (which is what I've done in the last image)
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Seems like the lens is a big limiting factor, or maybe the thermobolometer is small enough it doesn't resolve much more detail at 160x120.
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Hello,
can somebody provide a long range comparison between Seek XR and FLIR One 2?
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The lens of the 2nd Gen FLIR ONE will be a limitation due to its diminutive size. I have not worked with silicon lenses so do not know if they affect the clarity of the images produced. The new FLIR ONE is also using a 12um microbolometer , the same size as the SEEK unit.
IMHO, neither the SEEK nor the FLIR ONE are designed for long range observation and I do not expect them to perform well in that application. Cameras with larger lenses and microbolometers can achieve human detection at 300m+ but I suspect the new FLIR ONE will be limited to less than 50m. The design brief apaesr to be for a short range GP thermal imager that can be used by the public for fun and non demanding technical observation at close range. The wide angle lens says its all ;)
There are many people who want to use thermal imagers as weapons sights for hunting. Such applications really require one of the security type observation thermal imagers that FLIR sell, such as the PS24 or PS32.
Aurora
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i am agree with your comment about the Lens, Fraser.
A guy contacted me to ask about a comparison about this cameras (he has trouble while register here and cannot ask himself :-//).
From normal seek and Flir One exist some pictures.
But for a Seek XR (just better Lens with focus) and a Flir One 2 (better resolution), a side by side comparison would help him to choose between this both types (5/10/50/100 m).
I suggest the Flir One 2. The resolution is lower and the focus fixed, but they has good digital filters and do the most calculation work by Hardware.
i trust a temperature from flir more than seek... but this is just my opinion.
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@Joe-c,
It will certainly be interesting to see images produced by the two cameras in a side by side comparison.
Sadly the number of owners of the new FLIR ONE present on this forum appears limited at the moment. I am awaiting delivery of my Android version of due at the end of this month or early August. Once it is released we should see more sample images here. For distance work, it is usual to specify detection of a human adult. In the thermal domain that is often detection of hands and face as clothes will reduce the thermal signature somewhat. Ambient temperature is also a factor that needs to be considered as that provides the thermal contrast.
In the hunting scenario, the target is a very different to a human adult in terms of size and heat distribution.
It would be helpful to know the scenario in which your friend intends to use the thermal camera as this will influence the test. I am the guardian of three cats, but achieving a 100m observation of them is not possible as they are house cats. I may be able to do some 'spotting' of neighbours cats at such ranges though. A cat is actually a pretty tough target for a 'simple' thermal camera at range. They are well insulated and the hot spots are normally limited to eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and paw pads. All are quite small compared to pixel size at long range. On the positive side, they are similar to some hunting targets in terms of thermal signature and they are common so someone with a SEEK could also produce such images for comparison.
Aurora
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Ok so I have found that you can adjust the parallax error manually. By just touching and holding on the image a slider will show up which lets you adjust how the two images stitch. Not automatic but it works.
I can now get closeups to align perfectly.
Notice something interesting about these pics. When I export a CSV file from FLIR tools, I get one that is 320x240. I know that according to FLIR, the new version of the FLIR One, takes 640x480 images using MSX to combine a visible light image with the 160x120 thermal image (an improvement over the older thermal image size of 80x60). However, when exporting a thermal CSV file, the output is a 320x240 image. This suggests that the thermal core in the new FLIR One is in fact 320x240, rather than 160x120. Or it might be that FLIR Tools simply upscales the thermal image by a factor of 2 when exporting the CSV file. Can anybody here confirm whether the new FLIR One cameras have a true thermal image size of 160x120, or 320x240?
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160x120 pixels confirmed. Thermal image is upscaled.
Aurora
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160x120 pixels confirmed. Thermal image is upscaled.
Aurora
Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
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160x120 pixels confirmed. Thermal image is upscaled.
Aurora
Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
ExifTool by Phil Harvey http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/ (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/) is what has been used to extract data in the past. It's command line, very powerful but be ready to do some reading!
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Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
see topic 4 "Tutorial: create images with exiftool and Imagemagick step-by-step" of my post
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg342072/#msg342072 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg342072/#msg342072)
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160x120 pixels confirmed. Thermal image is upscaled.
Aurora
Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
ExifTool by Phil Harvey http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/ (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/) is what has been used to extract data in the past. It's command line, very powerful but be ready to do some reading!
I was hoping you could point me to a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses). Preferably a GUI based software created by a 3rd party programmer, who had previously reverse engineered Flir's FFF file format.
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160x120 pixels confirmed. Thermal image is upscaled.
Aurora
Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
ExifTool by Phil Harvey http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/ (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/) is what has been used to extract data in the past. It's command line, very powerful but be ready to do some reading!
I was hoping you could point me to a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses). Preferably a GUI based software created by a 3rd party programmer, who had previously reverse engineered Flir's FFF file format.
Perhaps try this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXZp4PCBgo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXZp4PCBgo)
I saw it mentioned in the FLIR E4 thread.
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A cat is actually a pretty tough target for a 'simple' thermal camera at range. They are well insulated and the hot spots are normally limited to eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and paw pads.
Right, I have attached an image of a cat on a cool night, the body does not stand out of the background much.
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Looks way too complex, just like official FLIR software like FLIR Tools. I just need a simple program that extracts the 16-bits-per-pixel array from the FLIR proprietary image and saves it into a TIFF file (TIFF does indeed support 16-bits grayscale images). Then I could load it into my own program for further processing. I'm not particularly interested in the actual temperature readings, so the emissivity and stuff does NOT need to be saved for my application. It can all be discarded except for the actual 16-bits-per-pixel array, which should be saved into a raw format that supports 16-bits grayscale images. And the first format that comes to mind that supports that is TIFF. That program you mentioned to me, as you can see is actually over-bloated for my purposes, handling all that other thermal info (like the emissivity, Boltzmann constants, etc). I don't need any of that, just a way to visualize the raw pixels as created by the far infrared focal-plane-array in the camera.
I fear that such software doesn't exist, but if it does, my best chance would be asking on this forum. I can see my worst fear is true. Software that meets my above mentioned requirements does not exist. Both pieces of software you mentioned are overbloated, and therefore do not meet my requirements.
My requirement is that the software I'm looking for do the things I mentioned, and nothing else, in order to make it a relatively slim software package. It should have the feel of a bare-bones simple image viewer, not a professional thermography program.
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160x120 pixels confirmed. Thermal image is upscaled.
Aurora
Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
ExifTool by Phil Harvey http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/ (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/) is what has been used to extract data in the past. It's command line, very powerful but be ready to do some reading!
I was hoping you could point me to a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses). Preferably a GUI based software created by a 3rd party programmer, who had previously reverse engineered Flir's FFF file format.
Perhaps try this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXZp4PCBgo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXZp4PCBgo)
I saw it mentioned in the FLIR E4 thread.
Ok, so I finally completed my FLIR image parser that lets me extract the raw thermal pixel from FLIR radiometric files now. Now all I need to do is make an application that uses this framework, and I'll have what I'm looking for.
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Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
I was hoping you could point me to a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses). Preferably a GUI based software created by a 3rd party programmer, who had previously reverse engineered Flir's FFF file format.
I don't understand your question.
Exiftool is a simple tool for extracting the raw data of multiple images in one line:
// Windows Code
exiftool -b -RawThermalImage FLIR*.jpg -w _%%f.png
but it's a long way from RAW values to temperature ;)
see source code for extracting the FFF header:
http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/EXIFTOOL/Image-ExifTool-9.90/lib/Image/ExifTool/FLIR.pm (http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/EXIFTOOL/Image-ExifTool-9.90/lib/Image/ExifTool/FLIR.pm)
see attachment for further details
a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses)
two years ago I wrote a simple awk script for extract the raw values from jpg:
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg23497.html#msg23497 (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg23497.html#msg23497)
PS: Flir Tools is a "free" GUI Software...
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Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
I was hoping you could point me to a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses). Preferably a GUI based software created by a 3rd party programmer, who had previously reverse engineered Flir's FFF file format.
I don't understand your question.
Exiftool is a simple tool for extracting the raw data of multiple images in one line:
// Windows Code
exiftool -b -RawThermalImage FLIR*.jpg -w _%%f.png
but it's a long way from RAW values to temperature ;)
see source code for extracting the FFF header:
http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/EXIFTOOL/Image-ExifTool-9.90/lib/Image/ExifTool/FLIR.pm (http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/EXIFTOOL/Image-ExifTool-9.90/lib/Image/ExifTool/FLIR.pm)
see attachment for further details
a dedicated FFF reader (not something like ExifTool, which has all kinds of uses)
two years ago I wrote a simple awk script for extract the raw values from jpg:
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg23497.html#msg23497 (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg23497.html#msg23497)
PS: Flir Tools is a "free" GUI Software...
Problem with the of the PNG FLIR images is that the 16-bits-per-pixel data that is decompressed from them, you'll find out very quickly is little-endian. Yet the PNG specification states that all multi-byte values (including pixel values if the bit-depth is greater than 8-bits-per-pixel), must be big-endian. So no PNG viewer that meets the official specs will be able to properly decode the image. I wish that exiftool had a way to swap the byte-order (endianness) of the decompressed pixels from the PNG image. Even better yet, I wish it had a way to convert the embedded PNG image to TIFF, so that the pixel values were directly accessible without additional decompression steps by the next program in the tool chain (an image viewer).
Fortunately this is all unnecessary now, as I have completed my FLIR image parser component, that detects any form of FLIR image (whether in a standalone FFF file, or embedded in a JPEG; and whether raw, or PNG compressed) and takes whatever steps necessary to convert get a raw 2D array of 2-byte-per-pixel values in little-endian byte order (even swapping the byte order if needed to accomplish this). The output array is a in the form of signed 32bit Long integers (not unsigned 16bit Short integers), as Visual Basic 6 (the programming language I used for creating this component) only handles signed numbers. It is 100% incapable of handling unsigned numbers. So each value in the output array always has the upper 2 bytes at 0 (zero), and the lower 2 bytes contain the pixel value. Why use VB6? It's the easiest BY FAR programming language to use. If I tried to do the same thing in Visual C++, I'd still be stuck trying to figure out how to accomplish all the things that this component needs to do. I plan to release this component at some point as an ActiveX DLL file for other developers to use in their projects, but first I'll be using it as the core of the application that I'm writing (also in VB6), which will be a very basic FLIR image viewer. I will likely release these 2 things (both the application, and the ActiveX DLL file) at the same time.
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Do you know of any FREE software that can extract thermal image raw data from FLIR radiometric images?
see topic 4 "Tutorial: create images with exiftool and Imagemagick step-by-step" of my post
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg342072/#msg342072 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg342072/#msg342072)
Why, do you don't read my post?
The nice guys from imagemagick have extended the software for Flir to swap the endian order in PNG images:
http://www.imagemagick.org/discourse-server/viewtopic.php?t=24818 (http://www.imagemagick.org/discourse-server/viewtopic.php?t=24818)
// swap byte order
since IM 6.8.8 with switch png:swap-bytes
convert -define png:swap-bytes=on t1.png t2.png
I have completed my FLIR image parser component
...
I will likely release these 2 things (both the application, and the ActiveX DLL file) at the same time.
is the code open source?
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@Bud,
Nice picture.
It also demonstrates the challenges of using a simple thermal camera in an outside environemnet
Note the temperature span that the camera has selected.....-40C to +26C. A 66C span :o
It has done this because the image contains the sky and so the autospan tries to include all temperature present in the FOV. (-40C is as low as she can go) A wide span reduces contrast in the image and it becomes more difficult to see subtle or small temperature differences. The large span effectively flattens the image.
If the same image were to be produced using a manual span setting of say 20C to 30C or 10C to 30C you would see a very different image ;) Simple thermal cameras are great for 'point and shoot' applications but there is a need for a manual span and centre temperature control to be used if the best is to be be extracted form the image. Unlike a full-auto visual spectrum digital camera, Auto mode in a thermal camera often produces images that are far from optimal for thermographic work....they just produce 'pretty' pictures. The good news is that many thermal cameras have post capture image processing software for a PC. This can change the span and centre temperature, completely changing the image produced. This is the huge advantage of a radiometric image format as opposed to a simple non radiometric file type. In a radiometric image, all the data from the imaging chip is present (the full temperature range) in the file and this may be manipulated as the user desires.
If you place your cat picture into FLIR tools you should be able to change the span and centre temperature to show the cat more clearly against its background.
It is the flexibility of radiometric image files that makes them so wonderful for pulling out 'hidden' details that might otherwise be missed and would be lost in a non radiometric file format.
Aurora
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nice samples
http://www.robotroom.com/Flir-Infrared-Camera-3.html (http://www.robotroom.com/Flir-Infrared-Camera-3.html)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=161251;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=161253;image)
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@tomas123
:-+
Aurora
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can somebody provide some images from the flir one 2 while view long range?
direct images (radiometric) would be nice. :popcorn:
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can somebody provide some images from the flir one 2 while view long range?
direct images (radiometric) would be nice. :popcorn:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/448361_2nd_Gen_FLIR_One.html&page=1#i4371588 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/448361_2nd_Gen_FLIR_One.html&page=1#i4371588)
Unfortunately not radiometric JPG.
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Ref the images of two horses in a paddock.......
As already detailed above, such exterior images that include the sky will likely force the Auto span of the FLIR ONE to go wider than optimum for spotting small animals with a challenging thermal profile. The relatively wide field of view provided by the FLIR ONE's lens also makes it sub-optimal for small target detection at long ranges.
It isn't doing too badly with the horses, but then they are very large and hot targets ;)
I have attached the images to this post in case they are lost in the AR15.com site. These are attributed to 'Skypup' on that forum.
The distance to the hoses is estimated to be 250m (75 metres).
The AR15 site is one to keep an eye on if interested in longer range thermal cameras as they have many members who use the thermal domain for the detection of wild life. It has some interesting 'real world' experiences of such and often pictures to support such. I am not a hunter myself, but those guys are certainly embracing the newer, more affordable, thermal camera technology in a way very different to the OEM's original intention. The SEEK camera is also being used by these guys.
Aurora
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I have completed my FLIR image parser component
...
I will likely release these 2 things (both the application, and the ActiveX DLL file) at the same time.
is the code open source?
Well since I finished my program before I finished the component, I'm releasing the program now. The standalone program has all the features that the component will have, except that it's compiled right into the exe file, instead of the program having the separate component as an added dependency. My next plan is to create the component, which will be an ActiveX DLL file. It should be a fairly simple process of migrating this code to a new VB6 project (the one for generating this component) now that I have all the code I want laid out in nice *.bas VB6 module files. I hope to complete the component, a single ActiveX DLL file, some time tomorrow, so you guys will be able to easily implement this functionality in your own programs, without having a bunch of module files that you would need to add to each project to get the same functionality.
Please read the readme file in the zip file, so you will know how to get the program setup to run. It's a very simple program to use. It's very self explanatory how to use each of the functions. So I haven't put a help file in the zip file.
The program, which is called FLIR FFF Viewer, is able to load all of the forms in which FLIR FFF files can exist, including ones with PNG compressed raw data, and the ones in which the FFF file is not a standalone file, but rather is embedded in a JPG file. Once loaded, there are a number of options for how to display it. It offers the ability to save the image as it is currently displayed to a BMP file. It also offers the ability to take the raw 16bits-per-pixel thermal image and save it to either an uncompressed TIF file or a losslessly compressed PNG file. Unlike with FLIR's implementation, which saves the 16bit raw data in little-endian byte order for PNG files (even though multibyte image data in PNG files is supposed to be big-endian), my implementation of 16bits PNG saving actually correctly swaps the bytes to save big-endian image data in the PNG file.
FFF files can be in one of 4 formats (all 4 of which my program will handle). FLIR calls these:
FFF
FFF+PNG
JPEG+FFF
JPEG+PNG
FFF and FFF+PNG are standalone *.FFF files. FFF stores the 16bit image data uncompressed (either in little-endian or big-endian byte order), while FFF+PNG stores the data as a losslessly compressed PNG file embedded within the FFF file (though the uncompressed image data that is input to the compressor is in the wrong byte order for PNG, thus it is technically an invalid PNG file).
JPEG+FFF and JPEG+PNG are *.JPG files with embedded *.FFF files. For the JPEG+FFF format, the embedded *.FFF file is in the pure FFF format. For the JPEG+PNG format, the embedded *.FFF file is in the FFF+PNG format.
For JPEG+FFF and JPEG+PNG, the embedded FFF file is extracted from the JPEG container prior to further processing. With the extracted (or standalone) FFF file, if it is of the FFF format, my program will directly extract the raw data. If it is in little-endian byte order this pixel array is passed directly to the rest of the program. If it is in big-endian byte order the bytes are swapped to little-endian (as needed in Windows software) before it is passed to the rest of the program. If the extracted (or standalone) FFF file is of the FFF+PNG format, my program uses ZLib (in the form of zlibwapi.dll, the stdcall version of the DLL file) to decompress the image data in the PNG file, and then passes the decompressed pixel array to the rest of my program. This is the required core functionality of any program that is to handle FLIR radiometric images.
All this functionality will also be wrapped into my ActiveX DLL component when I finish making it, allowing others to write their own programs for processing FLIR radiometric images.
Here's the download link for my program (not the DLL component). And yes, it does have all the source code.
Version 1.0 https://www.mediafire.com/?9n5m7hstbats5n9 (https://www.mediafire.com/?9n5m7hstbats5n9)
Version 1.1 https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco (https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco)
Version 1.2 https://www.mediafire.com/?zf2imwze56kqvc4 (https://www.mediafire.com/?zf2imwze56kqvc4)
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:-+ :-+
quick check on Windows 8.1 x64
(1) need zlibwapi.dll from folder "Other Dependencies" ( Error message: MsgBox "Failed to load image. File is not a valid FLIR radiometric image.")
(2) there are many of my Flir images, which your tool can't read ("Failed to load image. File is not a valid FLIR radiometric image.")
(2) you can test it with the nice Flir image collection of Phil (52 Flir cameras!)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz)
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:-+ :-+
quick check on Windows 8.1 x64
(1) need zlibwapi.dll from folder "Other Dependencies" ( Error message: MsgBox "Failed to load image. File is not a valid FLIR radiometric image.")
(2) there are many of my Flir images, which your tool can't read ("Failed to load image. File is not a valid FLIR radiometric image.")
(2) you can test it with the nice Flir image collection of Phil (52 Flir cameras!)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz)
Can you please send me the specific files that you had trouble with? I would like to test those, and see where my program is having problems.
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use this images
(3) you can test it with the nice Flir image collection of Phil (52 Flir cameras!)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz)
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use this images
(3) you can test it with the nice Flir image collection of Phil (52 Flir cameras!)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/sample_images.html)
http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz (http://owl.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/FLIR.tar.gz)
I don't want to have to sort through 52 photos to find a few that happen to for some reason don't work with my program. So far it's worked with other FLIR radiometric images I've tried, that I've found via Google Images search. Not one has failed yet. So I think it's probably a very rare type that isn't working. That's why I'm asking that you send me the exact files that aren't working for you. Upload the ones you tried that it isn't working with to Mediafire (or other similar file sharing site) and then post the link here for me to download them.
Update:
I just downloaded the 52 picture set you recommended, and every single picture in that set is corrupt. If that's the set that you got your picture from that you claimed didn't work with my tool (rather than the picture you tested having come from your own thermal imager, which is where I have been assuming it came from) then it's no wonder the picture you tested didn't work. Those pictures aren't even valid JPEG files. All you get when you try to view those images distributed in this massive collection of 52 corrupt JPEGs, is an 8x8 white square. I have never seen any picture file so corrupt before, let alone an entire collection of 52 corrupt images. Looks like if I want a picture from each model of thermal imager that FLIR has ever manufactured, I'm gonna have to ask some employee at FLIR who has access to all the cameras to take some pics for me, and email them to me.
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Update2 part 1:
Ok, I see why those 52 JPEG FLIR images don't show up. The main image in the JPEG file was replaced with an 8x8 blank image, but the rest of the metadata remains, including the embedded radiometric pixel data. Note that the image called FLIR_ThermaCAM_A320.jpg is missing radiometric pixel data, and so it has nothing to be displayed in my program. Therefore my program will always report it as in invalid FLIR radiometric image.
Update2 part 2:
I have now completed fixing the bugs in my program. All 52 of those sample images (other than the one from the Thermacam A320) will now load in my program. The previous version with the bugs in question was version 1.0. This current version with the bug fixes is version 1.1. Download it here: https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco (https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco)
I've also put this link in the original post where I first posted version 1.0.
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Update2 part 1:
Ok, I see why those 52 JPEG FLIR images don't show up. The main image in the JPEG file was replaced with an 8x8 blank image, but the rest of the metadata remains, including the embedded radiometric pixel data. Note that the image called FLIR_ThermaCAM_A320.jpg is missing radiometric pixel data, and so it has nothing to be displayed in my program. Therefore my program will always report it as in invalid FLIR radiometric image.
Update2 part 2:
I have now completed fixing the bugs in my program. All 52 of those sample images (other than the one from the Thermacam A320) will now load in my program. The previous version with the bugs in question was version 1.0. This current version with the bug fixes is version 1.1. Download it here: https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco (https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco)
I've also put this link in the original post where I first posted version 1.0.
Oddly I can load FLIR One pictures fine, but once FLIR Tools have touched them they are no longer openable. I assume they're still radiometric JPEGs (I could be wrong) as FLIR Tools is still happy to open them. I've attached a copy of a image before and after I edited it with FLIR Tools.
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@Ben321
with old Version Flir Tools V 4.0 it works fine (look at attachment)
see here:
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,6119.0.html (http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,6119.0.html)
it looks like newer versions of FLIR Tools has changed the way EXIF data is being embedded in images it saves.
(FLIR Tools 5.0 (5.0.14283.1002))
...
The problem is that they changed the version number (from 100 to 101):
exiftool source code:
http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/EXIFTOOL/Image-ExifTool-9.90/lib/Image/ExifTool/FLIR.pm (http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/EXIFTOOL/Image-ExifTool-9.90/lib/Image/ExifTool/FLIR.pm)
# FLIR file header (ref 3)
# 0x00 - string[4] file format ID = "FFF\0"
# 0x04 - string[16] file creator: seen "\0","MTX IR\0","CAMCTRL\0"
# 0x14 - int32u file format version = 100 /101
# 0x18 - int32u offset to record directory
# 0x1c - int32u number of entries in record directory
# 0x20 - int32u next free index ID = 2
# 0x24 - int16u swap pattern = 0 (?)
# 0x28 - int16u[7] spares
# 0x34 - int32u[2] reserved
# 0x3c - int32u checksum
# determine byte ordering by validating version number
# (in my samples FLIR APP1 is big-endian, FFF files are little-endian)
for ($i=0; ; ++$i) {
my $ver = Get32u(\$hdr, 0x14);
last if $ver >= 100 and $ver < 200; # (have seen 100 and 101 - PH)
ToggleByteOrder();
$i and $et->Warn("Unsupported FLIR $type version"), return 1;
}
your source code
FffVersion = CopyLong(FffFile(&H14))
Select Case FffVersion
Case &H64&
BigEndian = False
Case &H64000000 ' = 100
BigEndian = True
Case Else
ReDim ThermalPixels(0, 0)
ThermalPixels(0, 0) = -1
GoTo EndOfFunction
End Select
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Oddly I can load FLIR One pictures fine, but once FLIR Tools have touched them they are no longer openable. I assume they're still radiometric JPEGs (I could be wrong) as FLIR Tools is still happy to open them. I've attached a copy of a image before and after I edited it with FLIR Tools.
Yep, I just found out why. As of FLIR Tools version 5, there is a new version number for FFF files. The version number is stored in the FFF file as a 4-byte dword value. It normally is represented by the hex value 0x00000064, which is decimal value 100. Divide the value stored in this field by 100 to get the actual version number. The previous version field value has been 0x00000064 which represents FFF file version version 1.00. However as of FLIR Tools version 5, the FFF version field number is 0x00000065, which represents FFF file version 1.01. I will create a new version of my FLIR FFF Viewer application to take this into account. Previously it used this version field to determine the endian-ness of the main header, as there is no explicit "endian field" in the header to allow a program to detect the endian-ness of the main header of the FFF file. That's why I had used the "version field" in the header to detect the endian-ness. If it is little endian FFF file header then the hex bytes in this field would be "64 00 00 00". If it is big endian, then the hex bytes in this field would be "00 00 00 64". These 2 specific byte patterns are explicitly written into my program to allow the endian-ness to be detected. Any other values it is programmed to assume are from an invalid FFF file. With the new version of FFF file that comes with the latest version of FLIR Tools though, I will now need to change how my program detects the endian-ness of the main header of the FFF file. If anybody here has a suggestion on how to do that, or if there's a secret undocumented field hidden somewhere in the FFF file that specifies the endian-ness of the main header, I hope somebody here can inform me of it. For now, I'm going to use a sort of "hack" on my version field detection of endian-ness, that should (at least for the time) work properly with all current known versions of the FFF file format.
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Ok. Here's the latest version of my program (v1.2). It is now able to work with all versions of FFF file, including those generated by the latest version of FLIR Tools.
https://www.mediafire.com/?zf2imwze56kqvc4 (https://www.mediafire.com/?zf2imwze56kqvc4)
I have also posted this link now back in my first post that mentions my software.
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The previous version field value has been 0x00000064 which represents FFF file version version 1.00. However as of FLIR Tools version 5, the FFF version field number is 0x00000065, which represents FFF file version 1.01.
Yes, but do you haven't read my earlier post?
FffVersion = CopyLong(FffFile(&H14))
If (FffVersion And &HFFFF&) = 0 Then BigEndian = True Else BigEndian = False
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The previous version field value has been 0x00000064 which represents FFF file version version 1.00. However as of FLIR Tools version 5, the FFF version field number is 0x00000065, which represents FFF file version 1.01.
Yes, but do you haven't read my earlier post?
FffVersion = CopyLong(FffFile(&H14))
If (FffVersion And &HFFFF&) = 0 Then BigEndian = True Else BigEndian = False
What's wrong with it now? I got it working on all known FFF files. There is no FFF file that it will not work with now. So I don't know what you think is wrong with it. It would be helpful instead of just quoting my post and then saying that I should have read an earlier post of yours, if you actually said "this is what's wrong with it...". Otherwise it seems like you are just trying to find criticism with my program, without providing any constructive information on how to improve it.
Well it works now, so unless you can point out an FFF file that it doesn't work with, I'm through with altering the program, and my most recent version (v1.2) will remain the final version of this program. You can use it if you want, or don't use it if you don't want. As far as I'm concerned, this program is vastly superior to FLIR Tools for what I need it for. I don't need 100 different ways to perform temperature measurements. I just need a way to view these images, save the image as viewed for a reasonable range of brightness levels, and also convert the raw data to more common image formats. My program does all of these things, without having as many overbloated extra features as the official FLIR Tools program or the unofficial BFIC program, and also without being such a huge program (filesize wise), unlike FLIR Tools which is hundreds of megabytes in size. My program I consider the ideal program, that everybody who handles thermal images should use as a good starting program (and they should only turn to the other programs if they need the extra features). So as I said, you can use it if you want or don't use it if you don't want, but unless there is a VERY urgent bug remaining in it (one which prevents it from loading certain FFF files) that you can point out, then I have no plans to make any further "corrections". It is entirely possible that some of the code is not "technically" the right code for accomplishing what it is designed to accomplish, but as long as it works, I have no plans to change it.
Rather than work on my standalone application anymore, I am going to spend my time porting the loader part of my application to its own separate component (an ActiveX DLL file), so that others can incorporate it into their own programs.
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I've completed the porting of the loader code from my application over to my ActiveX DLL component. You can download it here.
https://www.mediafire.com/?7wo4m2m0b45u1bm (https://www.mediafire.com/?7wo4m2m0b45u1bm)
Please take care to read the readme file for this, as there's a lot more complexity when it comes to using ActiveX DLL files than any other kind of binary/executable file (such as EXE files or standard DLL files).
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I just wanted to help you.
With Phil (exiftool) together we reversed engineered two years ago the data structure of flir radiometric jpg and the formulas for calculating temperature from RAW values.
We published our findings and I'm glad when these things will be used from the community.
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Has anybody here yet tried the latest version of my program? Please reply if you have. I'd like to know how it's working out for you.
Has anybody here yet tried out the ActiveX DLL component that I created? Please reply if you have. I'd like to know how it's working for you in any program that you've used it in.
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Has anybody here yet tried the latest version of my program? Please reply if you have.
I would have tried it by now if Flir didn't delay the Android version. The shipping date has now slipped to mid-August!
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Has anybody here yet tried the latest version of my program? Please reply if you have. I'd like to know how it's working out for you.
Has anybody here yet tried out the ActiveX DLL component that I created? Please reply if you have. I'd like to know how it's working for you in any program that you've used it in.
As for the latest version it seems to work with both regular images and pano's that I create. Like the scaling and selection methods. If you need something very basic it fits the bill.
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Has anyone fiddled with one of the new C2 cameras? I have one and am wondering how to get video output into MATLAB. They ship a camera viewer that will save .avi files, but if there's a more direct way it'd be nice.
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Has anyone fiddled with one of the new C2 cameras? I have one and am wondering how to get video output into MATLAB. They ship a camera viewer that will save .avi files, but if there's a more direct way it'd be nice.
Unfortunately the C2 doesn't output radiometric video afaik. This means you can't read temp data from the video stream.
There was another user here a while ago who got radiometric video working on the E4, which normally doesn't have it, however I'm not sure if that will help you.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/)
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Has anybody here yet tried the latest version of my program? Please reply if you have.
I would have tried it by now if Flir didn't delay the Android version. The shipping date has now slipped to mid-August!
Hopefully that's just for new orders :/
The FLIR website is showing the iOS version as preorder now too. My amazon order is still showing "Before August 15th"....
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Has anyone fiddled with one of the new C2 cameras? I have one and am wondering how to get video output into MATLAB. They ship a camera viewer that will save .avi files, but if there's a more direct way it'd be nice.
Unfortunately the C2 doesn't output radiometric video afaik. This means you can't read temp data from the video stream.
There was another user here a while ago who got radiometric video working on the E4, which normally doesn't have it, however I'm not sure if that will help you.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/)
According to the FLIR rep it won't do radiometric data, but I'm just trying to trap the video output which would be "good enough" for what we're doing.
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Has anyone fiddled with one of the new C2 cameras? I have one and am wondering how to get video output into MATLAB. They ship a camera viewer that will save .avi files, but if there's a more direct way it'd be nice.
Unfortunately the C2 doesn't output radiometric video afaik. This means you can't read temp data from the video stream.
There was another user here a while ago who got radiometric video working on the E4, which normally doesn't have it, however I'm not sure if that will help you.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/)
According to the FLIR rep it won't do radiometric data, but I'm just trying to trap the video output which would be "good enough" for what we're doing.
I haven't used matlab but it should just show up as a standard UVC webcam. Any standard webcam software should interact with it.
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My 2nd gen Flir one was delivered today (ordered 6/27).
I had a quick play with it, and so far I am quite impressed.
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Has anybody here yet tried the latest version of my program? Please reply if you have. I'd like to know how it's working out for you.
Has anybody here yet tried out the ActiveX DLL component that I created? Please reply if you have. I'd like to know how it's working for you in any program that you've used it in.
As for the latest version it seems to work with both regular images and pano's that I create. Like the scaling and selection methods. If you need something very basic it fits the bill.
It is not loading properly images that that have size not multiple of 4. It loads but the image is skewed. Would be good if that is fixed in the next version.
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@Ben321
I wonder if you can add parsing of FLIR .seq (.fff) video files to decompose to individual frames.
EDIT: I have a sample but it is over 1Mb so can't supply as an attachment.
EDIT: per this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg377140/#msg377140 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg377140/#msg377140) it should be as simple is splitting based on the following search pattern:
\x46\x46\x46\x00\x00\x00
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Has anyone fiddled with one of the new C2 cameras? I have one and am wondering how to get video output into MATLAB. They ship a camera viewer that will save .avi files, but if there's a more direct way it'd be nice.
Unfortunately the C2 doesn't output radiometric video afaik. This means you can't read temp data from the video stream.
There was another user here a while ago who got radiometric video working on the E4, which normally doesn't have it, however I'm not sure if that will help you.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/)
That was a mod for Linux which I managed to compile with my zero knowledge of Linux. It writes raw data to a file, not to a streaming device. So I was able to create a file but do not know what to do with it, i.e. how to display the content. The author did not respond. So at the moment this is a dead horse to me.
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Has anyone fiddled with one of the new C2 cameras? I have one and am wondering how to get video output into MATLAB. They ship a camera viewer that will save .avi files, but if there's a more direct way it'd be nice.
Unfortunately the C2 doesn't output radiometric video afaik. This means you can't read temp data from the video stream.
There was another user here a while ago who got radiometric video working on the E4, which normally doesn't have it, however I'm not sure if that will help you.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-ex-realtime-raw-radiometric-data-streaming-via-uvc/)
According to the FLIR rep it won't do radiometric data, but I'm just trying to trap the video output which would be "good enough" for what we're doing.
I haven't used matlab but it should just show up as a standard UVC webcam. Any standard webcam software should interact with it.
This looks like it might do the job
Here's the relevant MATLAB connection docs if any other poor soul is trying this:
http://www.mathworks.com/help/supportpkg/usbwebcams/ug/webcam-acquisition-overview.html (http://www.mathworks.com/help/supportpkg/usbwebcams/ug/webcam-acquisition-overview.html)
Have to hustle back to the lab and find out new things I don't know enough about.
Thanks!
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International Shipping!
(http://puu.sh/jjjul/76d447529b.png)
Interestingly you can just turn off the tax...
(http://puu.sh/jjjwk/750435455b.png)
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I had a sales email from PASS UK today.
They are offering the new FLIR ONE Android for sale. I can't find confirmation of stock levels but we may be on the cusp of receiving our pre-ordered units :-+
http://www.tester.co.uk/flir-one-thermal-camera-android (http://www.tester.co.uk/flir-one-thermal-camera-android)
The web site also suggests that the camera has a normal retail price of £199+VAT at 20%. They are currently offering the camera at the 'discounted' price of £168 +VAT. I wonder if the price will go up to £199+VAT after an initial release period?
Aurora
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I had a sales email from PASS UK today.
They are offering the new FLIR ONE Android for sale. I can't find confirmation of stock levels but we may be on the cusp of receiving our pre-ordered units :-+
http://www.tester.co.uk/flir-one-thermal-camera-android (http://www.tester.co.uk/flir-one-thermal-camera-android)
The web site also suggests that the camera has a normal retail price of £199+VAT at 20%. They are currently offering the camera at the 'discounted' price of £168 +VAT. I wonder if the price will go up to £199+VAT after an initial release period?
Aurora
I really hope these things are finally shipping.
My FLIR One Android order has had it's estimated shipping date change from Late July -> Early August -> August 19th now.
It seems like nobody (First gen FLIR One, Seek Thermal iOS) can ship their product on time.
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I tried to download the Android app from the Play store.....
It said my Motorola Moto G was not compatible :o
Hope they sort that out as the Moto G isn't exactly exotic
Aurora
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Just had an email order update saying expected shipping of F1 Android week of Sep 7th >:(
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Aurora, I was able to download it with my Samsung S4 Mini, which is most likely NOT compatible. It wouldn't work with my Seek, and the S4 Mini is not on Flir's list of compatible devices. The Play Store says that of my many Android devices, only the S4 Mini was compatible....go figure.
The app installed ok and has some sample pix, also the Flir Tools app can view these pix and report their info.
Taken 5/16/2014
Image Size 120 x 160
Camera *(*)
lat/long puts it near Stockholm Sweden
Some info like Rel Humidity, Atmos. Temp, IR Window temp, Emissivity are editable/saveable.
Lots of stuff to explore.
I'll try to side load the app onto something else later today.
I also got an e-mail update saying the same as Milke ...."week of Sept 7"----> most likely to ship on Sept 11.
...ken...
Update:
I was able to sideload the Flir One app for Android onto my $US49 DigiLand DL701Q tablet which the Play Store said was NOT compatible.
It runs (of course I don't have a Flir One yet) as it did on my S4 Mini. Flir Tools Mobile runs as well and shows the same info for the sample images.
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I also received a 'week beginning' 7 September shipping message from FLIR.
Cynfab,
Thanks for the info. I would have expected FLIR to have opened up the app to all android phones and tablets that can support OTG. Seek had their app locked down to specific phones when first released, but soon opened it to all phones.
Aurora
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Luckily the iOS app is receiving regular updates and working very nicely :)
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@Toploser
That is good to hear. At least FLIR maintain software development after initial release. I have to wonder whether they have had some issues with the Android software so delayed shipping until it meets their high standards. On the compatibility chart there appeared to be an issue with video recording on some phones.
All good things are worth waiting for. In the mean time I have another Ex. Cadillac Deville 320x240 30fps Raytheon camera on its way to me from the USA. Looks like it will arrive before the FLIR ONE Gen2.
Aurora
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Just had an email order update saying expected shipping of F1 Android week of Sep 7th >:(
Did they not learn anything from the 1st gen? Ugh.
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Seams the best price is with rs-online.uk (or .es),
they offer 15% till August.21 for new customers,
maybe it is worth to register Grandma/Uncle to get this reduction ?
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Seams the best price is with rs-online.uk (or .es),
they offer 15% till August.21 for new customers,
maybe it is worth to register Grandma/Uncle to get this reduction ?
That offer excludes all Test & Measurement equipment. I almost went for it before I read that.
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Seams the best price is with rs-online.uk (or .es),
they offer 15% till August.21 for new customers,
maybe it is worth to register Grandma/Uncle to get this reduction ?
Their estimated dispatch date is in October...
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Does anybody know if flir stopped delivering the flir one for Android completely (due to technical / SW issues) - or are they just overwhelmed by the demand? Most shops in Germany have removed flir one second gen for iOS and Android completely from their stores...
Dirk (delivery delayed over and over again...)
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Does anybody know if flir stopped delivering the flir one for Android completely (due to technical / SW issues) - or are they just overwhelmed by the demand? Most shops in Germany have removed flir one second gen for iOS and Android completely from their stores...
Dirk (delivery delayed over and over again...)
AFAIK they haven't shipped any Android units apart from a few for reviews. There aren't any on ebay.
My order went in within a couple of minutes of getting the announcement email.
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Does anybody know if flir stopped delivering the flir one for Android completely (due to technical / SW issues) - or are they just overwhelmed by the demand? Most shops in Germany have removed flir one second gen for iOS and Android completely from their stores...
Dirk (delivery delayed over and over again...)
As Mike said, they haven't shipped any FLIR One Android units, apart from review ones.
Per the emails received by Mike & Aurora, and my contact with FLIR & Amazon, it looks like the shipping date has been pushed back to 10th September.
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I've had my FLIR One V2 for iOS for about a month now, so far it's been great :) If anybody has some requests for specific images they'd like to see taken with it, I'll do my best to do so. Here's a couple random pics I've taken in the meantime.
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Could you try a long distance shot for me? I'm considering buying one of these to replace a Seek XR for spotting deer and such 100+- out. The Seek does ok but the low sensitivity makes it tough sometimes. Even though the Flir One has a smaller sensor in hoping the much higher sensitivity will make up for it. So if possible could you test on dog to human sized targets at distance that would help me out tremendously. Thanks a bunch in advance!
Sent from my iPhone
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Could you try a long distance shot for me? I'm considering buying one of these to replace a Seek XR for spotting deer and such 100+- out. The Seek does ok but the low sensitivity makes it tough sometimes. Even though the Flir One has a smaller sensor in hoping the much higher sensitivity will make up for it. So if possible could you test on dog to human sized targets at distance that would help me out tremendously. Thanks a bunch in advance!
Sent from my iPhone
The FLIR One has a much wider angle lens than the Seek XR, so any image quality improvements will be negated by the wider field of view. The XR has a 20º FOV, while the FLIR One's lepton3 sensor is 56º
If I were you I would save up and try to buy a Therm-App, which, with it's 19mm lens, will offer a much better experience than either the Seek XR or the FLIR One.
Here's a rudimentary test I found on YouTube (without MSX as that's what you'll be seeing at night): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5031tPx9AzI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5031tPx9AzI)
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I think that the seek xr, with its ability to focus the lens and with about a 2x magnified image, is probably gonna be the better performer at distance, but I took a couple images for u to compare with your seek. They're of my sister in front of my garage with her arms out, she's about 5'6. One is at 50ft and the other at 100ft taken at night. I hope that helps :)
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Here's a example I found of a Therm-App picture with it's default 19mm lens of people 150 yards / ~135m away.
(http://puu.sh/jLcLD/73cff5677a.jpg)
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I think one of the issues with the FLIR One is that it's automatic gain control uses histogram equalization, which is not optimal for detecting objects in the night. Here's a example.
The following is a picture of a dog in a backyard (pulled from arstechnica FLIR One review).
(http://puu.sh/jLdbN/4bc59a8726.jpg)
While it's possible to see the dog, it's not very well defined - this is because of the way the FLIR One AGC works. If you look at the temperature bar on the right, you'll see that a large range of the temperature bar is white/light grey. This is because the histogram equalization - the AGC tries to make sure there's the same amount of each shade of grey visible on the screen at once. This means that when the dog (high temp) appears very small on the screen, a very large majority of the image is much lower temperature than the dog - therefore the AGC "boosts" the colour of these parts, such that the lower temperature parts are spread across a wider part of the grey spectrum. This significantly decreases visible contrast between the dog and it's background (even though there is a big temperature contrast), however it increases the details visible in the background. This makes this algorithm much more useful for thermography, and not very useful for detection in the night.
(http://puu.sh/jLdsG/a2fa0e719e.jpg)
I have now changed the distribution mode to Linear from Histogram Equalization. Immediately you can see that the temperature bar on the right is completely linear and now the dog is very clearly visible (however you do lose some background details). This is because the high thermal contrast between the dog and the background is displayed as such.
Given a smaller target, this effect will be even more profound.
Unfortunately it's only possible to change the AGC mode FLIR Tools or similar after taking the picture - the FLIR One viewfinder doesn't allow for this (might be possible with SDK).
The Therm-App on the other hand allows for a "Night-vision" mode which afaik is similar to FLIR's DDE (as found in the NV monocular products) which allows for the high contrast to be seen while also preserving details in the background.
However, I understand that the Therm-App at $939 might be outside of your price range. Let's hope someone can apply some enhancements to the image via. the FLIR One SDK.
Redshift1340, if you could post the raw FLIR One images of your test, we will be able to check and probably find that with a linear AGC your sister will be much more visible on the image.
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I've been posting from my iPad because my laptop has been overheating, so I'm not sure how to post the raw photos. I did open the pic in my FLIR Tools app and tried to tweak it a bit, and I think it's showing a linear AGC.
Sorry, I had to do a screen grab for the pic because for some reason when I save changes using the FLIR Tools app and export the image to my photo album, there's some loss of quality and the data overlays, i.e. Temperature scale bar, crosshairs, Measurement box, etc. are all very low resolution and pixelated as you can see in the third image.
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Yeah, unfortunately none of those are radiometric so we can't change the AGC mode.
You'll need to supply the picture straight from the FLIR One app (it'll be 250kb+), however I guess that might not be possible from the iPad.
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I think one of the issues with the FLIR One is that it's automatic gain control uses histogram equalization, which is not optimal for detecting objects in the night. Here's a example.
The following is a picture of a dog in a backyard (pulled from arstechnica FLIR One review).
(http://puu.sh/jLdbN/4bc59a8726.jpg)
While it's possible to see the dog, it's not very well defined - this is because of the way the FLIR One AGC works. If you look at the temperature bar on the right, you'll see that a large range of the temperature bar is white/light grey. This is because the histogram equalization - the AGC tries to make sure there's the same amount of each shade of grey visible on the screen at once. This means that when the dog (high temp) appears very small on the screen, a very large majority of the image is much lower temperature than the dog - therefore the AGC "boosts" the colour of these parts, such that the lower temperature parts are spread across a wider part of the grey spectrum. This significantly decreases visible contrast between the dog and it's background (even though there is a big temperature contrast), however it increases the details visible in the background. This makes this algorithm much more useful for thermography, and not very useful for detection in the night.
(http://puu.sh/jLdsG/a2fa0e719e.jpg)
I have now changed the distribution mode to Linear from Histogram Equalization. Immediately you can see that the temperature bar on the right is completely linear and now the dog is very clearly visible (however you do lose some background details). This is because the high thermal contrast between the dog and the background is displayed as such.
Given a smaller target, this effect will be even more profound.
Unfortunately it's only possible to change the AGC mode FLIR Tools or similar after taking the picture - the FLIR One viewfinder doesn't allow for this (might be possible with SDK).
The Therm-App on the other hand allows for a "Night-vision" mode which afaik is similar to FLIR's DDE (as found in the NV monocular products) which allows for the high contrast to be seen while also preserving details in the background.
However, I understand that the Therm-App at $939 might be outside of your price range. Let's hope someone can apply some enhancements to the image via. the FLIR One SDK.
Redshift1340, if you could post the raw FLIR One images of your test, we will be able to check and probably find that with a linear AGC your sister will be much more visible on the image.
Is it possible to manually set the span on the Flir One?
If you narrow the span (in particular increase the value of the bottom of the scale) you will get a better contrast on your target. As you say this is at the expense of your background detail but that's usually not the important thing.
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Is it possible to manually set the span on the Flir One?
If you narrow the span (in particular increase the value of the bottom of the scale) you will get a better contrast on your target. As you say this is at the expense of your background detail but that's usually not the important thing.
Kind-of. You can lock the span.
(http://a2.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple7/v4/e9/07/b6/e907b6bf-4948-4075-613f-d10bc3bb309e/screen322x572.jpeg)
It would be a bit annoying to lock it every time you open the app, but it would certainly increase contrast.
(http://puu.sh/jLuGF/3f37e67f91.jpg)
Increasing the minimum temp by just a few degrees completely removes all background details. Probably not optimal for night vision but would work for detection only.
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Yes, when narrowing in on details I like to increase the bottom of the span as much as possible just until the point that the target starts to be affected.
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>> You'll need to supply the picture straight from the FLIR One app (it'll be 250kb+), >> however I guess that might not be possible from the iPad.
Attachments from iPad are Images or Videos only, but
you can upload to Dropbox or similar Cloud, and post the link here.
So in FlirApp ImageViewer bottom left there is Open With...
select Dropbox there, (same with FlirTools you already have done)
then make a PublicFolder in Dropbox and post the Link here.
I have tested with an ExampleImage and see it in Dropbox
as xxx.jpeg with 331 KB, maybe it is radiometric.
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Ok I've set up a Dropbox account, hopefully this works :-\ one of the files is a bit smaller, but it could be because it was compressed after I edited it with FLIR tools.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9i8yuc7ng2ma6ec/AAA4veNj6R5qFkFuxEHVySG1a?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9i8yuc7ng2ma6ec/AAA4veNj6R5qFkFuxEHVySG1a?dl=0)
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Well that's awkward. Looks like it's worse when set to linear.
(http://puu.sh/jMmB0/6e82c23254.jpg)
This is most likely because the sky is in view, therefore the minimum temperature span is set to -30 degrees, significantly reducing contrast. (also interestingly the FLIR One is only meant to go down to -20, but it reads -30 just fine). By setting the AGC region to the bottom half of the screen, the image is improved, but is still not optimal.
(http://puu.sh/jMmHY/1ef0e4b51e.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/jMmMO/98a7f983bc.jpg)
(http://puu.sh/jMmOS/d836bb9f17.jpg)
So I guess I was wrong - maybe the AGC mode only matters in some circumstances.
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Is it possible to manually set the span on the Flir One?
If you narrow the span (in particular increase the value of the bottom of the scale) you will get a better contrast on your target. As you say this is at the expense of your background detail but that's usually not the important thing.
Kind-of. You can lock the span.
(http://a2.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple7/v4/e9/07/b6/e907b6bf-4948-4075-613f-d10bc3bb309e/screen322x572.jpeg)
It would be a bit annoying to lock it every time you open the app, but it would certainly increase contrast.
(http://puu.sh/jLuGF/3f37e67f91.jpg)
Increasing the minimum temp by just a few degrees completely removes all background details. Probably not optimal for night vision but would work for detection only.
Thanks for the replies I appreciate it. From what I can see it's a bit of a mixed bag as in some ways it seems better. Regarding the contrast detail setting the span is definitely a way to boost that detection. I'm not looking to hunt per se with this or the Seek I'm really looking for detection capabilities so loosing the contrast like with the dog example isn't a huge one for me. I'm more trying to detect something is there versus a true night vision device. While I'd love to get the ThermApp it is out of my price range at the moment for what I'm trying to do. What I found is that the Seek's low sensativity made it tough here in South Carolina during most times of the year to get a detection outside. Here is an example I posted in another forum months ago:
Here's a case of a picture I took of my dog well doing what dogs do in the backyard at roughly 40ft while it was 78 outside I think. It was detecting the dog at nearly the same temp as the ambient so nearly didn't see it.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k629/wrxaholic/IMG_4183.jpg)
Here is a case where after multiple attempts with a buddy of mine across an open field I got a decent detection at approximately 200yds on an evening when it was about 62 at the time. Those are Tree's behind him and a touch of the sky peeking in too.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k629/wrxaholic/IMG_4211.jpg)
While looking across a field this isn't half bad and gets me what I'm looking for out of this it was a different story in the bush so to speak. This was probably one of the best distant heat sigs I got the whole time I used it. Many times when I tried to use it while behind my buddy it would have trouble seeing him in front of me only 30-40 feet. When not looking at the camera screen I could easily and clearly see him but because of that low sensitivity it had difficulty when looking through the trees because of the ambient mix the sensor experienced. In other words while wearing clothes or covered in fur it would detect the body temperature in the 70's typically and if it was high 60's to 80's out there would be so much else around the object close to that temperature that like the picture of my dog above it could barely differentiate it out. It also seemed to make pretty big difference whether the object your looking for was broadsided or bladed to you also.
Building off that thought I contacted Seek about what I was seeing and the troubles I was having detecting things like my dog and that gave me an interesting but a little unexpected response. I was told per Seek it can take 5-7 min for it to settle in before each device is working optimally, this in it self isn't huge but good to know. Now though by optimally they say they have a margin of error of *5 degrees* and I can confirm this as I ordered a second XR and used on another IOS device side by side and it consistently registered 2 or 3 degrees hotter. Now 2 or 3 degrees didn't sound like much at first but when your talking about sensitivity issues I was looking at above it seemed that taking ambient into account that could mean the difference between seeing your dog in the back yard or not. Wow when I typed that out and reread the last sentence it makes the problem sound so first world and petty ;D.
Thanks guys,
Steve
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I think your best bet if you choose to stay with seek is to see if anyone releases a app using the SDK the hopefully allows for manual ranging.
Also try using the rainbow pallete as you may get slightly more contrast.
The reason why your dog appears so faded is because of the very wide minimum span of the Seek. The FLIR Ones minimum span is much narrower, which will give you more contrast.
Then again for the price of your 2 Seek XRs, you're already 2/3 of the way to the cost of a Therm-App.
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I think your best bet if you choose to stay with seek is to see if anyone releases a app using the SDK the hopefully allows for manual ranging.
Also try using the rainbow pallete as you may get slightly more contrast.
The reason why your dog appears so faded is because of the very wide minimum span of the Seek. The FLIR Ones minimum span is much narrower, which will give you more contrast.
Then again for the price of your 2 Seek XRs, you're already 2/3 of the way to the cost of a Therm-App.
I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?
Regarding being 2/3 the way to ThermApp I would agree except the 2nd Seek I got was a warranty replacement to hopefully fix my issue of having uneven readings on my screen. I could look at a solid object of all the same color and the edges would be discolored as if a different temp. Turns out this was later fixed in a software release but as a result the replacement did it too and I ended up sending both back. So at the moment I'm Flir-less but I definitely want to get another one here in the very short term as the scouting season is getting underway. I was also kinda hoping that Seek might be releasing an updated product soon too but haven't heard a peep on that either.
Steve
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I think your best bet if you choose to stay with seek is to see if anyone releases a app using the SDK the hopefully allows for manual ranging.
Also try using the rainbow pallete as you may get slightly more contrast.
The reason why your dog appears so faded is because of the very wide minimum span of the Seek. The FLIR Ones minimum span is much narrower, which will give you more contrast.
Then again for the price of your 2 Seek XRs, you're already 2/3 of the way to the cost of a Therm-App.
I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?
Regarding being 2/3 the way to ThermApp I would agree except the 2nd Seek I got was a warranty replacement to hopefully fix my issue of having uneven readings on my screen. I could look at a solid object of all the same color and the edges would be discolored as if a different temp. Turns out this was later fixed in a software release but as a result the replacement did it too and I ended up sending both back. So at the moment I'm Flir-less but I definitely want to get another one here in the very short term as the scouting season is getting underway. I was also kinda hoping that Seek might be releasing an updated product soon too but haven't heard a peep on that either.
Steve
Apparently Seek have updated their non-XR version with a manual focus ring, but that's all I've heard about them releasing an updated product.
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Is this an (working) adapter, to connect a Flir One (Gen 2 Android) with a PC?
USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter
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Is this an (working) adapter, to connect a Flir One (Gen 2 Android) with a PC?
USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter
Just USB-wise, yes. But are there suitable drivers/software to use the camera with a PC?
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I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?
As you know, a thermal imager normally maps the colour at the top of the LUT (eg. White) to the hottest object in the scene, while mapping the colour at the bottom (eg. Black) to the coldest object. However, as the difference between the hottest and coldest decreases, more image noise is visible (as you're stretching a smaller signal difference to fit a large colour span).
The seek has a wide minimal span. This means that the colour mapping will react as you expect down to a certain point (eg. 5 degrees difference). After that, the hottest is no longer mapped to white - it's mapped to slightly brighter grey and cold is mapped to slightly darker grey. This is to hide noise.
We can manually use photoshop to change the span of your dog photo to make sure the full pallet of black -> white is used, thereby simulating what would happen without a minimal span/a narrower minimal span.
(http://puu.sh/jP6iq/140cdbeada.png)
Holy noise - You can clearly see why seek have set a minimal span limit.
So yeah, it's technically a software limit, however the software limit exists because the hardware cannot generate good images at low temperature spans.
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Is this an (working) adapter, to connect a Flir One (Gen 2 Android) with a PC?
USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter
give it a try, but I dont think so,
maybe you need to solder pin4+5 to make it OTG ?
http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/how-to-make-your-own-usb-otg-cable-for-an-android-smartphone-29503.html (http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/how-to-make-your-own-usb-otg-cable-for-an-android-smartphone-29503.html)
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> USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter
I'm not sure, if this really connect USB-wise (OTG with PC?).
The Flir One SDK contain drivers (compiled binaries) für Android on ARM7 CPU.
I see some nice possibilities with Raspberry Pi Gen 2 (with Android Lollipop)
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OTG is just a capability that enables a phone to act as a Host rather than an accessory. It becomes a computer rather than a memory module, or similar. As such OTG is not in play when connecting the FLIR ONE G2 to a standard PC as that is already in Host mode via its USB ports. The FLIRONE just wants a host, it cares not what that host is. The OTG connector supplies normal Supply, D+, D-, 0v pins. The fifth pin is used by the phone only to set it to Host mode. In the OTG spec the pin is actually the ID terminal on pin 4 of the connector.
I see no issue with adapting the 5 pin micro USB connector to a standard full size A or B connector for linking to aC. The FLIR ONE is a standard USB device.
If appropriate drivers are install, it should be visible and accessible from a PC. Then the fun begins, writing an application to process the cameras data. I do not have the SDK so do not know how much image processing occurs in the camera and how much is needed in the host.
If the FLIR ONE can be used with a PC, it will really open up some interesting possibilities. I was hoping that FLIR would produce a thermal web cam to join its range of visible light security webcams, but that has not happened yet.
Aurora.
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Didn't want to start a new thread for this, so this is probably the best place to ask this question:
I'm looking for a low cost Thermal Imager. I want to avoid mobile phone attachment versions, as I change my phone more often than my wife changes her mind. What would you guys recommend? (Flir or not?)
McBryce.
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FLIR E4 is, IMHO, the best value for money thermal imager on the market at this time. At 80x60 resolution it is not wonderful but the MSX helps by providing context to an image. If you carry out the relatively simple upgrade/hack to the full 320x240 resolution of which it is capable it is IMHO unbeatable value for money.
I collect thermal cameras, some costing as much as $56000 when new in 2001. Their replacement models cost a similar sum today. I now own 40 thermal cameras of various ages and capabilities. Many are far higher spec than the Ex series. Yet I tend to reach for the little E4 when I want to do a quick image of a PCB or scene. It is a very well designed little camera with good ergonomics and, when hacked, excellent capabilities. I cannot recommend it highly enough. A real Gem.
Aurora
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Cheapest standalone I know of is this - no idea how good it is :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IR-INFRARED-THERMAL-IMAGER-VISIBLE-LIGHT-CAMERA-3600-PIXELS-20-300-C-6Hz-/171785207662?hash=item27ff323f6e (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IR-INFRARED-THERMAL-IMAGER-VISIBLE-LIGHT-CAMERA-3600-PIXELS-20-300-C-6Hz-/171785207662?hash=item27ff323f6e)
Or get a FLir One and a dedicted cheap android phone, and forget it's a phone.
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But best value for money is still a hacked E4
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FLIR E4 is, IMHO, the best value for money thermal imager on the market at this time. At 80x60 resolution it is not wonderful but the MSX helps by providing context to an image. If you carry out the relatively simple upgrade/hack to the full 320x240 resolution of which it is capable it is IMHO unbeatable value for money.
I collect thermal cameras, some costing as much as $56000 when new in 2001. Their replacement models cost a similar sum today. I now own 40 thermal cameras of various ages and capabilities. Many are far higher spec than the Ex series. Yet I tend to reach for the little E4 when I want to do a quick image of a PCB or scene. It is a very well designed little camera with good ergonomics and, when hacked, excellent capabilities. I cannot recommend it highly enough. A real Gem.
Aurora
But doesn't that hack require obtaining a version of the camera that is hackable? In other words, if he just goes out and buys one off Amazon.com, is this going to be hackable, or does he have to try and find an older revision that allows the hack?
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All known versions of the Ex series can still be hacked. There is the tear down thread on this forum that details such.
Aurora
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I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?
As you know, a thermal imager normally maps the colour at the top of the LUT (eg. White) to the hottest object in the scene, while mapping the colour at the bottom (eg. Black) to the coldest object. However, as the difference between the hottest and coldest decreases, more image noise is visible (as you're stretching a smaller signal difference to fit a large colour span).
The seek has a wide minimal span. This means that the colour mapping will react as you expect down to a certain point (eg. 5 degrees difference). After that, the hottest is no longer mapped to white - it's mapped to slightly brighter grey and cold is mapped to slightly darker grey. This is to hide noise.
We can manually use photoshop to change the span of your dog photo to make sure the full pallet of black -> white is used, thereby simulating what would happen without a minimal span/a narrower minimal span.
Holy noise - You can clearly see why seek have set a minimal span limit.
So yeah, it's technically a software limit, however the software limit exists because the hardware cannot generate good images at low temperature spans.
Most excellent answer thank you and the image help clarify things too. So it looks like I'm gonna be stuck using the Seek XR for now unless they come out with something new real soon.
Sent from my iPhone
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Thanks for all the tips. I've no problem hacking things. My DP832 and MSO1104Z-S have both been liberated, so a Flir shouldn't be an issue.
@Aurora: That's an exensive hobby you've chosen there! Unfortunately I'm a bit spoiled. At work we use devices at that price level, so my expectations are a bit too high. But I'd really like to have this option at home, but not spend a fortune on it.
McBryce.
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Gave up waiting for the FLIR One Android and ordered a Therm-App... 384x288 here I come :-+
Hard decision between it and the E4, but the ~40% higher res (384x288 (~100k) as opposed to 320x240(~72k)) and "native" interchangeable lens, manual focus and video recording support sold it for me. Also the large lens on the Therm-App just looks a bit more... substantial than the small chalcogenide one on the E4 ;)
Let me know if you want me to start a new thread and post a review / thoughts on the Therm-App once I get it.
Also one more interesting thing of note - even though the Therm-App is manufactured by Opgal, who themselves make various 384 and 640 microbolometers with both 17u 25u pixel pitches, the Therm-App actually uses a Pico384P from ULIS (Sofadir subsidiary) in a "traditional" ceramic package (as opposed to the wafer packaging used on the E4/Seek/Lepton).
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Thank you for your order from FLIR Systems, Inc.. Fulfillment by Amazon has shipped the following items. This completes your order.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Qty Item
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 FLIR ONE Thermal Imaging Equipment for Android Devices
SKU:435-0003-03-00-A
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Of course it ships <24 hours after I cancel my preorder.
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FLIR One Android is now on sale at Amazon for $211.61 USD.
http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Thermal-Imaging-Equipment-Android/dp/B00W5PRY52 (http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Thermal-Imaging-Equipment-Android/dp/B00W5PRY52)
@marshallh and anyone who ordered from Amazon - you may want to try contacting them. Their customer support is great and they just may refund you the difference.
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In Germany you can preorder it in Amazon for 279€ ;)
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In Germany you can preorder it in Amazon for 279€ ;)
Can you please post the link to the Amazon page? I'm only able to find the iPhone version on Amazon.de :'(
Thanks!
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Just typical....the USA gets a discounted price but the UK (Europe?) does not.
Boo Hissss FLIR 👿
Aurora
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In Germany you can preorder it in Amazon for 279€ ;)
Can you please post the link to the Amazon page? I'm only able to find the iPhone version on Amazon.de :'(
Thanks!
I can't find it on amazon.de, but it's on amazon.co.uk http://goo.gl/4ze7Db (http://goo.gl/4ze7Db) for 199pounds or 273€ + shipping.
I will rather wait for i3-ThemalExpert with 384 x 288 resolution and sell my SeekThemal to soften a hit to my wallet. ;D
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Its just the iOS Model :/
FLIR ONE Wärmebildkamera für iOS-Geräte https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0123QLZJ8/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_dZh6vbXRH1DRE (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0123QLZJ8/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_dZh6vbXRH1DRE)
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see here for Android version
http://www.amazon.de/FLIR-ONE-Wärmebildkamera-für-Android-Geräte/dp/B01478QCHU (http://www.amazon.de/FLIR-ONE-Wärmebildkamera-für-Android-Geräte/dp/B01478QCHU)
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Just got a ship notice from FLIR for my Flir One Android. Should be here on 9/8.
And UPS has it in their system!!
...ken...
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I've been reading this thread, and have a sudden urge to buy a thermal imager seeing as how the prices in general are actually starting to become within reach. Whether it's the Flir One or other product, or even a dedicated one. In the ~$300 range is the Flir One still the way to go? I can't seem to find the Android version anywhere in Canada, not even through ebay. It's all iphone ones. Also how phone specific is it? I have a Nexus 4.
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I've been reading this thread, and have a sudden urge to buy a thermal imager seeing as how the prices in general are actually starting to become within reach. Whether it's the Flir One or other product, or even a dedicated one. In the ~$300 range is the Flir One still the way to go? I can't seem to find the Android version anywhere in Canada, not even through ebay. It's all iphone ones. Also how phone specific is it? I have a Nexus 4.
If you have a Nexus 4, then the FLIR One might be your only option - the Nexus 4 has limited OTG support, as it doesn't supply power. Therefore, the Seek/Therm-App, which both draw power from your phone, won't work. Only the FLIR One has a built in battery and therefore will hopefully work.
However please note that the USB connector on the Nexus 4 faces the wrong way - you'll only be able to take thermal selfies unless you get a MicroUSB OTG extension cable.
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I've been reading this thread, and have a sudden urge to buy a thermal imager seeing as how the prices in general are actually starting to become within reach. Whether it's the Flir One or other product, or even a dedicated one. In the ~$300 range is the Flir One still the way to go? I can't seem to find the Android version anywhere in Canada, not even through ebay. It's all iphone ones. Also how phone specific is it? I have a Nexus 4.
If you have a Nexus 4, then the FLIR One might be your only option - the Nexus 4 has limited OTG support, as it doesn't supply power. Therefore, the Seek/Therm-App, which both draw power from your phone, won't work. Only the FLIR One has a built in battery and therefore will hopefully work.
However please note that the USB connector on the Nexus 4 faces the wrong way - you'll only be able to take thermal selfies unless you get a MicroUSB OTG extension cable.
That's good to know. I'll have to try to find a source in Canada, think I'm going to go for it. I'll have to find that microusb cable though, is that something common? I would not really want it to be super long.
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Once the Flir Ones start arriving, there will be a lot more info about what phone/tablet/??? works with the device, Like the Seek, until the devices are in the hands of users, we won't really know what works and what doesn't.
Since UPS has mine and not FLIR (any more), I feel confident in its arriving tues or wed of next week... ;>))
...ken...
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I will rather wait for i3-ThemalExpert with 384 x 288 resolution and sell my SeekThemal to soften a hit to my wallet. ;D
btw I contacted i3system and the price (still undecided) will be a fair bit higher than the $500 USD I quoted in the other thread.
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I will rather wait for i3-ThemalExpert with 384 x 288 resolution and sell my SeekThemal to soften a hit to my wallet. ;D
btw I contacted i3system and the price (still undecided) will be a fair bit higher than the $500 USD I quoted in the other thread.
Well I hope the ThermalExpert i3 is at least cheaper than the Therm App. I'd love to have the Therm App or an E4 but I can't quite afford spending $900-$1000 right now. So I'm hoping the i3 might come in at $700-800 tops, or that the other two take a price drop.
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I've been reading this thread, and have a sudden urge to buy a thermal imager seeing as how the prices in general are actually starting to become within reach. Whether it's the Flir One or other product, or even a dedicated one. In the ~$300 range is the Flir One still the way to go? I can't seem to find the Android version anywhere in Canada, not even through ebay. It's all iphone ones. Also how phone specific is it? I have a Nexus 4.
If you have a Nexus 4, then the FLIR One might be your only option - the Nexus 4 has limited OTG support, as it doesn't supply power. Therefore, the Seek/Therm-App, which both draw power from your phone, won't work. Only the FLIR One has a built in battery and therefore will hopefully work.
However please note that the USB connector on the Nexus 4 faces the wrong way - you'll only be able to take thermal selfies unless you get a MicroUSB OTG extension cable.
That's good to know. I'll have to try to find a source in Canada, think I'm going to go for it. I'll have to find that microusb cable though, is that something common? I would not really want it to be super long.
http://www.amazon.com/YCS-Basics-Micro-female-extension/dp/B00HAOK7XE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1441352399&sr=8-2&keywords=OTG+extension+cable (http://www.amazon.com/YCS-Basics-Micro-female-extension/dp/B00HAOK7XE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1441352399&sr=8-2&keywords=OTG+extension+cable)
Couldn't find anything shorter :(
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My F1 Android just arrived - delivered by Amazon, so looks like Flir have outsourced their fulfillment.
No time to play at the moment I'm afraid :(
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YAY! Mike
That likely means mine is not too far away as well.
On the topic of costs and various options, I will repeat what I have said before.
The technology and capability that is being offered by cameras such as the E4, SEEK, FLIR ONE, Thermap etc is excellent value for money when compared to what thermal cameras cost up until very recently. Personal budgets are something I understand since retiring but I believe the old PC related adage applies.... buy the best that you can afford.
If budgets are tight but performance is a concern with the cheaper units, consider buying a used thermal camera provided it can be returned if not in full operating condition. Repairing thermal cameras can be a challenge to those without previous experience of such.
As an example of what can be achieved buying used thermal camera equipment...
I bought a FLIR PM575 for £150 a few months back...and that was via ebay ! It is in almost new condition and works superbly. It is a 320x240 / 60fps high performance microbolometer based camera with superb optics and build quality. I have to admit that this was a lucky find but a more usual PM series price for me of £600 secured the purchase of a superb PM695 'top of the line' auto focus thermal camera this week. It is a Gen3 low noise 320x240 60fps microbolometer cored camera with true auto focus, and many built in analytical features. It came with a perfect condition auxiliary wide angle lens and the very hard to find FLIR ThermaCAM Reporter Pro software. The original prices of these items in 2002 (when bought) were as follows:
PM695 camera - $56000 + VAT
PM570 W/A lens - $15000 + VAT
Reporter Pro - $6000 + VAT
The above prices are not typos, yes all are multi thousand US $ items.
They may have been overpriced for home users but this is still the sort of money that is spent on equipment in industry. Consider the build quality and performance that £600 just bought me.... its a pretty good deal IMHO. The larger, older professional thermal cameras are a bit like Digital SLR cameras Vs similar resolution compact point and shoot cameras. The image sensor and optical block in the PM series is HUGE when compared to that of the E4. In TIC's, 'bigger is better' when it comes to the microbolometer (and I am not just talking resolution here). The PM series have thermoelectric temperature stabilisation as well. Please do not discount used equipment as old so therefore no good.....the truth can be VERY different. Sometimes the guy with the smaller budget ends up with the better deal and better equipment ;)
Why am I buying a FLIR ONE Android ? It will be a very convenient little camera to have around. Plus I collect thermal camera technology and this looks to be a great piece of miniaturisation. IMHO, at around £200 in the UK, it is a bargain. Its even cheaper in the USA ! Will it replace any of my other cameras used in my lab....not likely but who knows :-//
Aurora
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App says not compatible with my Moto G.
Attempting to revive tablet....
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Well I finally got reply from someone in Flir for my "cancelled" order.
They made me re-order the thing and offered me some discount too (nice touch Flir!) ... shipping on Monday.
Hope that Mikes don't publish a full tear down before to have it in my hands ... it will ruin my unboxing by more than one order of magnitude.
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Also "not compatible" with a recent Kitkat 4.4 tablet.
It's taken long enough to arrive - how have they not either fixed it or put a warning on the website :-//
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Was to arrive today, but UPS botched the delivery, and the package teleported from my town back to the distritubtion hub.
I have yet to ever receive a 2nd day air package on time. So far the worst "2nd day" delivery time has been up to 1.5 weeks.
Get it together UPS.. I can ship something from China to my doorstep in 2 days, including weekends... It's bad when DHL is better
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Mike,
I noted that the APP was stated as incompatible with my MOTO G some time ago. I thought they might be going to release a new APP when the cameras shipped. Sadly this appears to not be the case. I am a fan of the Motorola MOTO G and it has been a very successful mobile phone model with no nasty weirdness to cause user experience issues.
For the FLIR APP to not be compatible with the MOTO G rates as a really daft situation. Many other phones will likely also come up as not compatible even though they are OTG capable. I can only think that FLIR have locked down the apps pre-requisites on the PLAY store and they need to open them up to all ANDROID phones as SEEK did after an initial lock down.
The solution is likely to side load the app as we did with the SEEK app. A pain but at least it should work with the relatively standard ANDROID MOTO G phone.
I suspect FLIR will be getting a lot of support questions on this matter so it will soon be rectified. Its very different to an APP that loads but refuses to run correctly and is just an admin setting on the pre-requisites.
If we side load the APP and it doesn't run.....well that will be a major PITA !
Aurora
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The solution is likely to side load the app as we did with the SEEK app.
anyone....?
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I was able to load the app from the play store on to my Samsung S4 mini even though It is not compatible since ti doesn't support otg. ;>(
However, I was then able to grab the app .apk file off the phone and side load onto my Digiland tablet. I have hopes it will work there since it supports otg, and it works with my Seek.
btw the Flir One app just updated today on my phone, but it did not auto update (yet) on the tablet.
I did this by using ES File Explorer to share the .apk file onto my Google Drive account, Then I downloaded it from the Google Drive with my tablet and installed it.
...ken...
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I was able to load the app from the play store on to my Samsung S4 mini even though It is not compatible since ti doesn't support otg. ;>(
However, I was then able to grab the app .apk file off the phone and side load onto my Digiland tablet. I have hopes it will work there since it supports otg, and it works with my Seek.
btw the Flir One app just updated today on my phone, but it did not auto update (yet) on the tablet.
I did this by using ES File Explorer to share the .apk file onto my Google Drive account, Then I downloaded it from the Google Drive with my tablet and installed it.
...ken...
any chance you could send me a copy - I don't have anthing that will get it from the play store. mike@electricstuff.co.uk
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I was able to load the app from the play store on to my Samsung S4 mini even though It is not compatible since ti doesn't support otg. ;>(
However, I was then able to grab the app .apk file off the phone and side load onto my Digiland tablet. I have hopes it will work there since it supports otg, and it works with my Seek.
btw the Flir One app just updated today on my phone, but it did not auto update (yet) on the tablet.
I did this by using ES File Explorer to share the .apk file onto my Google Drive account, Then I downloaded it from the Google Drive with my tablet and installed it.
...ken...
any chance you could send me a copy - I don't have anthing that will get it from the play store. mike@electricstuff.co.uk
You should have mail.
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It should be on the way.
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Thanks - doesn't work on tablet but working now on Moto G
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I hope it runs on the Moto G for the sake of Aurora and Mike, however I can understand why if it doesn't.
If you look on the FLIR approved devices page, even high end devices like the Nexus 7 Gen 2 with it's Snapdragon 600 are marked "Video recording slow".
Heck, even the Galaxy tab S (high end 8 core exynos chip) is marked video recording slow.
I have a feeling that even if you get the app to work on the Moto G, you will find the performance unsatisfactory.
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It works but framerate is only about 3fps. Maybe they're not enabling it until they can get a better framerate
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It works but framerate is only about 3fps.
And about 1 second lag >:(
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Kind of looks like you need a Snapdragon 801 processor or newer/better for it to perform decent.
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Oh dear.
If this is the case, FLIR have dropped the ball badly as they will effectively lose a large share of the potential user base. A potential buyer would possibly see the FLIR ONE G2 as reasonable value for money at its present selling price, BUT, if you add the cost of a high end powerful smartphone to the equation it becomes a very expensive purchase indeed.
This isn't making any sense to me at all. Such a thermal core should not need a very high powered host as proven by the iOS version. It smells of poor coding to me. We shall have to see how the situation develops over the coming days/weeks.
If the new FLIR ONE G2 does end up needing a miniature super computer to run its Android APP, I know one company that will be laughing all the way to the bank...SEEK Thermal :-DD At least their APP ran OK on my MOTO G.
Aurora
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Seek on the same phone isn't brilliant but framerate is better.
Has anyone dug sufficiently deep into Seek to tell if they are doing much of the processing on the phone?
I've not pulled it apart yet (yes, I am really that busy!) but I'd be surprised if it wasn't basically the same as the original, with the Linux processor. It does take a few seconds to turn on, like the F1 Mk.1
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Mike,
IIRC Toploser has already taken the iOS version apart and posted pictures. From memory it had a half decent processor in the FLIR ONE G2. I would have expected the image processing for noise etc to be done on the Host but that should be within the capabilities of a quad core MOTO G surely ? It should be similar to the requirements of the E4 and I do not recall that having a mega computer within its case.
Aurora
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Mike,
IIRC Toploser has already taken the iOS version apart and posted pictures. From memory it had a half decent processor in the FLIR ONE G2. I would have expected the image processing for noise etc to be done on the Host but that should be within the capabilities of a quad core MOTO G surely ? It should be similar to the requirements of the E4 and I do not recall that having a mega computer within its case.
Aurora
Mabye the 12um microbolometer needs much more processing (see how noisy the Seek is) than the 17um one in the FLIR E4 in order to get a good image?
Perhaps the Seek just has better performance because of less image processing (and therefore worse image)?
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Hard to compare side by side but F1 quality looks better, certainly less noise.
And of course MSX helps a lot, though teh extra processing may be contributing to the slowness - if so it would be handy to be able to turn it off.
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If they do only work well with newer phones maybe the price will fall so those of us with faster phones can have thermal imaging on the cheap!
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Nah, FLIR will likely take the view that if you can afford a flash new high powered phone, you can easily afford their RRP on the camera :-DD
Aurora
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I would bet that the issue is related to having the processing done by java code vs. Android Native Libs . Java is certainly easier and probably the first implementation. Followed by a recoding in C/C++ in a Native lib. I believe that Seek transitioned from java to Native Lib several rev's of their app ago.
There is also an issue with Native Lib support in Android Studio at the present time.
Sooo, maybe there is hope for the Flir One app to improve in the near future, once there is a groundswell of complaints bi the early adopters. (hint... hint... hint...)
...ken...
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I am still left wondering what the cause of the delay was for the Android version release.
If it was the Android APP, then why are we still seeing the original version on the PLAY store ?
If it was a camera related issue then why was the iOS camera OK for release ? Surely they would be very similar in terms of hardware and firmware ? If anything the iOS version would have been more likely to suffer delays due to Apple approvals etc.
I suppose there could have been a shortage of a particular hardware part and the iOS cameras were given priority on the production line ?
All a bit odd really.
Aurora
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Just checked my email. My FLIR ONE G2 has been despatched and is en route to me :)
Delivery due on Sunday
Aurora
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Just remembered that the .apk file I sent to mile was the first one I installed on my S4 Mini. It has been updated since. It reports version 1.1 in the about screen.
The one that was updated this am, reports 1.2. A new file has been sent to mike.
sorry for the confusion.
...ken...
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I am still left wondering what the cause of the delay was for the Android version release.
If it was the Android APP, then why are we still seeing the original version on the PLAY store ?
If it was a camera related issue then why was the iOS camera OK for release ? Surely they would be very similar in terms of hardware and firmware ? If anything the iOS version would have been more likely to suffer delays due to Apple approvals etc.
I suppose there could have been a shortage of a particular hardware part and the iOS cameras were given priority on the production line ?
All a bit odd really.
Aurora
The android app has been updated a few times since it was first added to the play store. At least twice.
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I uploaded v1.1 (updated a few weeks ago) and v1.2 (updated a few hours ago) to Google Drive for those who need it.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bwv5-z7GgzRsSFZWOGpXVzZRMzA&usp=sharing
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I would bet that the issue is related to having the processing done by java code vs. Android Native Libs . Java is certainly easier and probably the first implementation. Followed by a recoding in C/C++ in a Native lib. I believe that Seek transitioned from java to Native Lib several rev's of their app ago.
There is also an issue with Native Lib support in Android Studio at the present time.
Sooo, maybe there is hope for the Flir One app to improve in the near future, once there is a groundswell of complaints bi the early adopters. (hint... hint... hint...)
...ken...
Yep, under Software licenses we see OpenCV and JavaCV (Java interface for OpenCV). Both the use of OpenCV and the use of it inside Java probably lead to the low performance.
(http://i.imgur.com/3ElPXWy.jpg)
Also, they have a Android Wear app... I'm really not sure what the use is... I guess you could monitor the temperature of remote processes from your watch?
(http://i.imgur.com/w2GbqeV.jpg)
Maybe that time could've been better spent porting the OpenCV image processing to Android native libs :P
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V1.2 gives no improvement in speed on Moto G or crashiness on tablet
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Heard some horror stories from a guy that reversed the V1, things like no buffer length/management on the endpoints, sending text JSON files over the image transfer port, no error handling... It seems like the entire thing up to the module itself was done by web monkeys.
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Well my FLIR ONE G2 Android has arrived :)
Sadly no time to play as I am going out for the evening :(
Interestingly, the seals on the box have been broken prior to delivery :wtf:
Maybe a firmware update was issued before shipping ? Odd though. New seals should have been fitted.
Were your seals still intact Mike ?
Pictures attached
Aurora
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Probably something done by the customs guys, checking there is the right non ITAR unit in the box.
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@SeanB,
Maybe, but unusual in my experience. The UK officers usually check the shipment manifest that contains any licencing details.
I am wondering if the unit came with a non UK charger ? I recall something about a 1A charger being in the box but there is no such charger in mine. My recollection may be wrong however. Anyone outside the UK receive a charger in the box ?
Aurora
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Spec on FLIR site mentions a 1A charger for the unit and not the phone. So that read as a charger was included but it may mean that a charger of at least 1A capacity is needed ?
http://flir.com/flirone/content/?id=69420#specs (http://flir.com/flirone/content/?id=69420#specs)
Aurora
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I also read about supplied spacers for phones that are not in a protective shroud. The spacer ensures a stable fit.
No such spacers in my box :(
Aurora
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There was one spacer in my (sealed) box - leaflet said theer should have been 2 different. Possible I may have mislaid one.
No charger or space for it in the box, just a USBa-micro B lead.
Charge current is 0.5A
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Spec on FLIR site mentions a 1A charger for the unit and not the phone. So that read as a charger was included but it may mean that a charger of at least 1A capacity is needed ?
http://flir.com/flirone/content/?id=69420#specs (http://flir.com/flirone/content/?id=69420#specs)
Aurora
Doesn't state charger is included, just the cable:
"Included accessory: charging cable (micro-USB)"
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Spec on FLIR site mentions a 1A charger for the unit and not the phone. So that read as a charger was included but it may mean that a charger of at least 1A capacity is needed ?
http://flir.com/flirone/content/?id=69420#specs (http://flir.com/flirone/content/?id=69420#specs)
Aurora
Doesn't state charger is included, just the cable:
"Included accessory: charging cable (micro-USB)"
Yeah my iOS version only came with a charging cable, no charger or spacers for that matter
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@Mike,
No spacers and no leaflet in my unsealed box, just the camera, case, strap and USB cable.
Something shonky going on here.
I will contact FLIR and complain.
Not a great start to my FLIR ONE G2 ownership >:(
Aurora
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This is slightly unrelated but here are some cheap (relatively speaking) phones with high end SoCs that would allow for use with the Seek and FLIR One G2.
- Motorola / Google Nexus 6. Price recently dropped to $350USD, Snapdragon 805. USB Port faces the wrong way
- LG G3, another Snapdragon 805 device. You can pick one up new on ebay for ~£170.00. USB Port faces the correct orientation
- OnePlus Two, Snapdragon 810 $329 USD. USB Type C port and stupid ass invite system (hard to buy)
- OnePlus One, Snapdragon 801, can be had for ~$300USD on ebay new. USB Port faces the wrong way
There are some misc. chinese phones with high end Snapdragon chipsets that are avaliable for good prices, however I've always had terrible luck with getting OTG working on those. It's probably worth it to spend more to get a more "popular" phone. (they also tend to not have Google Play store etc., so it's a PITA to use)
As for tablets;
- Galaxy Tab Pro 8.4 or 10.1, Make sure you get the snapdragon 800 version, not the exynos. Can be found on eBay for ~£180. USB faces the right way.
There aren't really that many affordable-ish tablets with high end SoCs. Most have Snapdragon 400.
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I will contact FLIR and complain.
You may find this leaflet that was in my box useful....
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@Mike,
Thank you :-+
Tried my camera this morning...... In the words of Star Trek's Bones..... It's dead Jim !
Charges but otherwise unresponsive and not seen by my Moto G or my friends so say compatible Samsung.
I thought this delivery was Shonky.... Now I know it is.
Email to FLIR to get this sorted me thinks >:(
This isn't up to FLIR's usual high standard of service. Kinda takes the shine off of the new purchase.
Aurora
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In case anyone's interested - here is what comes out of the onboard serial port at startup :
Start AT91Bootstrap version svn-r5344 ...
Init HALF drive strength DDR... BOARD_ConfigureDdram()
DDRSDRC->DDRSDRC_LPR: 0x12101
Done!
Downloading image...
Trying to load uboot...
nandflash_hw_init()
reset_nandflash()
AT91F_NandReadID()
ManufacturerID: 0x2c DeviceID: 0xa1
chip id: 0x2ca1
Copy 0x50000 bytes from 0x40000 to 0x23f00000
nandflash_cfg_8bits_dbw_init()
switch(sNandInfo.uDataNbBytes) 2048:
read_nandflash: while (1)
read_nandflash: while (1)
read_nandflash: while (1)
read_nandflash(): return 0;
Done!
Returning jump to 0x0x23f00000
U-Boot 2010.06-svn5344 (Jun 11 2015 - 13:47:32)
DRAM: 64 MiB
NAND: nand->ecc.bytes 28
nand->ecc.steps 1
nand->ecc.layout = pmecc_oobinfo_2048
host->mm 13
host->nn 8191
host->tt 4
host->sector_size 512
host->sector_number 4
host->ecc_bytes_per_sector 7
host->alpha_to 0x10C000
host->index_of 0x108000
128 MiB
*** Warning - bad CRC or NAND, using default environment
In: serial
Out: serial
Err: serial
Net: macb0, macb1
eth_enable not set, skipping macb init.
eth_enable not set, skipping macb init.
Watchdog enabled.
Hit CTRL-C to stop autoboot: 0
Data (writethrough) Cache is ON
boot operational
Loading from nand0, offset 0xe00000
Image Name: Linux-2.6.39+
Image Type: ARM Linux Kernel Image (uncompressed)
Data Size: 3357900 Bytes = 3.2 MiB
Load Address: 20008000
Entry Point: 20008000
Automatic boot of image at addr 0x22000000 ...
## Booting kernel from Legacy Image at 22000000 ...
Image Name: Linux-2.6.39+
Image Type: ARM Linux Kernel Image (uncompressed)
Data Size: 3357900 Bytes = 3.2 MiB
Load Address: 20008000
Entry Point: 20008000
Verifying Checksum ... OK
Loading Kernel Image ... OK
OK
Starting kernel ...
Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel.
[ 0.025000] AT91: CM rev B and higher
[ 0.037000] AT91: EK rev B and higher
Starting watchdog...done
mounting jffs2 READ-ONLY...done
start battery charge control
Starting battery_charge: OK
done
Formatting /tmp/versions: OK
[ 1.663000] lepton_init
[ 1.671000] lepton_probe: using 16-bit SPI width
Welcome to Rosebud (Operational)
(none) login: <7>[ 42.592000] lepton status = 0 xfer 5 [4294709888]
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Mike,
How does the case come apart please ?
Aurora
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It's clipped together around the edge of the rear side - plastic spatula round the edge and it comes out easily.
internal screws are Torx security - T5 or T6 I think.
Impressively the internal screws go into brass bushes!
BTW just for fun I used the UsbWebCamera App to connect my E4 ub UVC mode to the phone and it works just fine - framerate and lag are not much worse than on the E4's own screen!
Flir should just hand that setup to the F1 SW devs and tell tehm they can't go home til the F1 is working that well!
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Thanks Mike.
I have written my letter to FLIR. Just editing it down to its most concise form for impact and speed of reading.
Aurora
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Hmm so it's very picky with compatibility I guess, and it's a gamble whether it works on a specific device? in the more expensive range how does the E4 gun compare? I'm kinda toying with getting one. Compared to what a lot of thermal guns go for a grand is not all that bad. I guess I have to ask myself, how badly do I really need it. It's more of a toy really, an expensive toy. :P
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Flurry of Tweets from Flir in response to my tweet about non-compatibility :
@mikelectricstuf we've updated the Android app and it should be available later today. Please let us know if you have issues with the app!
@mikelectricstuf due to the panoramic feature, there was a resource requirement to have an accelerometer and gyro.
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No response from FLIR yet on my incomplete and faulty unit though :'(
Fraser
(Aurora)
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It's some sort of public holiday in the US today - even Digikey aren't shipping!
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DRAT !
Never mind, I have spent today tidying and playing with my Faxitron X-Ray.
If you have not seen it yet, take a look at my X-Ray images thread ;D
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/the-x-ray-image-thread-by-aurora-various-electronics-via-x-ray-imaging/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/the-x-ray-image-thread-by-aurora-various-electronics-via-x-ray-imaging/)
Aurora
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Newapp is up, loads on Moto G. Some new features and a firmware update for the camera (need to do it manually via settings menu).
Now has mode to adjust MSX camera offset for close-up
Frame rate doesn't look any better though.
Also loads on tablet. Framerate no better and it gets the screen rotation wrong.
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@mikelectricstuf due to the panoramic feature, there was a resource requirement to have an accelerometer and gyro.
Limit the list of supported devices just for that feature? Can't they add a function which enables / disables only panoramic features if accelerometer & gyro are missing...? With a nice and shiny message which explains why it's greyed out?
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I think they had an old version of the app on Play for reviewers, and didn't update it in time when product shipped.
Latest app has lots more features - not just a change in supported devices
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The Moto G doesn't have a gyro? That's so odd. I thought it did.
EDIT: Only the 4G Moto G has a gyro, the 3G version doesn't.
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No sign of a panorama feature but maybe it only gets enabled if there's a gyro.
Something it does need is a setting to tell it that it's plugged into the side of a tablet so it rotates correctly, though on mine the USB port faces the wrong way so you can only do thermal selfies.
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I emailed flir/globalshopex on the 1st and they said they're expecting to receive it on the 10th of Sept. It unexpectedly just turned up today via DHL. I didn't get a tracking number.
It arrived fully sealed, with the spacer included. It works well on the Galaxy S6 and Tab S2 tablet. Haven't had much time to play with it, but it looks good so far!
One thing I noticed is that the cover doesn't fit properly when the spacer is installed. It still stays there, but just doesn't sit totally flush.
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I emailed flir/globalshopex on the 1st and they said they're expecting to receive it on the 10th of Sept. It unexpectedly just turned up today via DHL. I didn't get a tracking number.
It arrived fully sealed, with the spacer included. It works well on the Galaxy S6 and Tab S2 tablet. Haven't had much time to play with it, but it looks good so far!
One thing I noticed is that the cover doesn't fit properly when the spacer is installed. It still stays there, but just doesn't sit totally flush.
I had 2 email notifications - one the evening of the day I received it, another a few days later!
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@eug,
Regarding the cover fit. The FLIR instructions state that the camera will not fit in the cover when a spacer is used. I have already provided feedback to FLIR and stated that the cover is not that ergonomic and needs some more thought.
Aurora
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@eug,
Regarding the cover fit. The FLIR instructions state that the camera will not fit in the cover when a spacer is used. I have already provided feedback to FLIR and stated that the cover is not that ergonomic and needs some more thought.
Oh, I didn't get any instructions with my Android model, except for a sheet of paper that gives a URL (http://flir.com/onestart/ (http://flir.com/onestart/)).
The full user guide PDF in that link doesn't mention the spacer or cover. It does look like they were in a bit of a rush - one line in the manual says "Optimizing the image is described in more detail in section XYZ." There's no XYZ of course - it's on page 9, which mentions a coffee cup "below" where there's just blank white space.
There's also a sticker on the inside of mine that refers to "Made for iPod" even though it's an Android model. But hey, I'd rather receive it early than wait till they have the right boxes and finish the manual. :)
I hope the Lock Span feature comes to the Android app soon!
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Just heard from FLIR CS. They are sending me a new unopened FLIR ONE. Hope it arrives soon.
The content of the boxes seems a little variable. I found the spacer instructions in an on line manual at the FLIR ONE web site I had no paperwork at all with my camera !
Aurora
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I happened upon this thread via Google, and was wondering if anyone has torn one of these few F1's down yet? I can't find any mention of the "Lepton 2" on FLIR's website, or any way to purchase just the modules. Are the socketed still, or soldered with a BGA-like package for compactness?
Thanks
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Toploser did a tear down but I'll be damned if I can find it now. It's on this forum though. Sorry I cannot help on that front. With regards to the LEPTON 3, as it is known, it is still socketed but has not been released on its own yet.
Aurora
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Here you go.....
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg701170/#msg701170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg701170/#msg701170)
Aurora
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Do you guys think thats possible to adjust the focus manually by glueing some plastic thingy on the "lens housing"?
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Here you go.....
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg701170/#msg701170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg701170/#msg701170)
Aurora
Cool! I bet it would be easy to hack it to run off the phone's 5V USB port.
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Lepton looks the same, though I think lens may be bigger,and it has the shutter
Haven't compared side by side with older one. It is socketed.
Too busy to do proper teardown atm.
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Here you go.....
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg701170/#msg701170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg701170/#msg701170)
Aurora
Cool! I bet it would be easy to hack it to run off the phone's 5V USB port.
It's actually called the Lepton 3, the previous gen one was Lepton 2 (no idea what Lepton 1 is).
Datasheets;
http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_5191be73d1c943d78d2e1a095cb7f3b8.pdf (http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_5191be73d1c943d78d2e1a095cb7f3b8.pdf)
http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_9b698564a2e84af6a955078615b3a9da.pdf (http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_9b698564a2e84af6a955078615b3a9da.pdf)
Same package as the old Lepton.
-
Wonder if it's possible to drop a Lepton 3 to replace the Lepton 2 on the F1 Rosebud sled. I'd be curious to see if there's a software resolution restriction in place or if 160x120 would actually work out. Call me crazy but I really like the sled since it's an integrated device allowing me to carry one unit as opposed to a dongle. I only see the 80x60's on Digikey...
-
Mine just arrived!!
In the sealed box:
Quick start & warranty card
Thank You card from Bill Terrel
microUSB cable
Spacer
Case
Lanyard
Box has a "Made for iPod" sticker inside ( I guess they ran out of Android boxes)
As expected the app doesn't recognise the camera when plugged in and turned on on my S4 mini.
It does however work ok on my Digiland $49US tablet. Updated the firmware and everything.
Frame rate on the preview is slow, but usable, will take a video & some snapshots soon...
Plugging it into my linux box lsusb -vv gives the following
Bus 002 Device 007: ID 09cb:1996
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x09cb
idProduct 0x1996
bcdDevice 1.08
iManufacturer 1 FLIR Systems
iProduct 2 FLIR ONE Camera
iSerial 3 FLIRONEF0xxxxxxxxx
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 96
bNumInterfaces 3
bConfigurationValue 3
iConfiguration 4 SBIBDP Configuration
bmAttributes 0xc0
Self Powered
MaxPower 0mA
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 5 iAP Interface
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x81 EP 1 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x02 EP 2 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 1
bNumEndpoints 0
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 6 com.flir.rosebud.fileio
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 6 com.flir.rosebud.fileio
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x04 EP 4 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 2
bAlternateSetting 1
bNumEndpoints 0
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 7 com.flir.rosebud.frame
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 2
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 7 com.flir.rosebud.frame
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x85 EP 5 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x06 EP 6 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Device Qualifier (for other device speed):
bLength 10
bDescriptorType 6
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
bNumConfigurations 1
Device Status: 0x0001
Self Powered
It works about the same with my 2012 Nexus 7.
...ken...
-
Received, it's a letdown.
Image quality is comparable to the last one (i.e. blurfest). Can't turn off MSX, though the MSX is decent quality and adjustable. If you try to charge with anything besides a 1A charger, it actually slowly dies, presumably because the cpu running linux inside it draws more power than it can charge with.
Charged with my smartphone cable for an hour, now it will not boot under its own power.
Because of this it is not possible to upgrade the firmware.
At this point it seems the Seek is more useful and doesn't require a stupid charging system just to run its own linux-based glue logic.
-
Is the Image quality that bad?
As you say, the first gen was very very blurry.. :/ but they said that it has 4 times the resolution of the first generation :-DD
maybe I wait a few years when the F1 has the same resolution as the Seek but its less nosier and has manual adjustible focus....for 250$ ;)
-
FLIR ONE V2 DISASSEMBLY
Use a plastic spudger to remove the halves, which are conjoined by 4 smalll pads of adhesive.
Lift up the battery connector to unplug it.
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7b38c2844d01a.jpg)
Combo LPDDR/NAND is the bga device with the serial QR code on it.
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7b42ad38e0e09.jpg)
Unscrew 3 outer security torxes and lift the pcb directly straight out.
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7bb78faa20042.jpg)
USB/Lightning pcb is a 4pin connector that plugs into a smd header.
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7bdd162fd744b.jpg)
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7da0ec2f8734e.jpg)
Unclip 2 of the translucent white assembly from the pcb.
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7da66d3347126.jpg)
Lift vertically to remove assy and lepton from socket.
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7e7a33d9096ee.jpg)
(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7ead59b4b1f2f.jpg)
-
I do not like the look of that screen connection mess on top of the USB plug !
I am starting to think FLIR could be playing games over the true resolution of the LEPTON 3. Having re visited all the FLIR blurb I get the definite feeling that they did not want to specify the physical pixel count. There is even comment in one pre release document saying that picture appearance is more important than resolution ! This almost appeared to say that the new LEPTON had better image manipulation 'magic'. I wonder if we are back to our old friend of cheap low resolution imaging chips. Namely interpolation.
I would comment further if I had a working unit but as mine was DoA I will have to wait to see the images on my phone.
I will do a side by side comparison of the ONE with two other 160*120 pixel cameras. If FLIR are not being totally honest about the 160*120 physical resolution I think we will spot it.
If this is smoke and mirrors marketing crap, my camera will be heading back to FLIR pronto. I still have the email confirming physical resolution as 160*120 from FLIR CS.
I should have stuck with professional thermal cameras. At least they have real specs and you can trust them !
Aurora
-
I find the following fairly unique -- The use of "Rosebud" (Citizen Kane, "Sled") used to describe the FLIR G2 in the kernel boot log (thanks Mike for posting) is quite interesting. At frame 0:42 to 0:43 shows the same kernel load addresses, kernel version, load addresses, etc. JFFS2 kernel image sizes differ (firmware differences?). Also appears G2 no longer has dropbear SSHd running on init/boot (firmware differences?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKLnGhwWtoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKLnGhwWtoc) (
Interesting output around G1 and G2 with regard to inserting lepton.ko kernel module, would love to compare differences between the two. Equally interesting is G1 running an SSHd without an ethernet interface. Odd the G2 is reporting SPI and other verbose output not seen in G1. Again, suspect possible firmware differences?
Would love to have 'root' on the G1/G2 and start comparing the kernel modules, modinfo, etc. Very interested to hear about interpolation findings. Thanks all for the thread, very much appreciate the constant learning I have while reading these threads. All the best.
-
http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_9b698564a2e84af6a955078615b3a9da.pdf (http://media.wix.com/ugd/53cdb6_9b698564a2e84af6a955078615b3a9da.pdf) notates true 160x120 and a 17 to 12 micron pixel size reduction
Possibly useful
http://www.mako.co.kr/# (http://www.mako.co.kr/#)!---/cyai
-
After putting it back together, it charges properly, and charge LED does not blink erratically. It seems the battery connector may have loosened to marginal contact during shipping.
-
I wonder if that is what is wrong with mine. I get no life out of it at all. No LED, nothing.
It's going back to FLIR though so I am loathed to mess with it. A possible weak area in the design ?
At least if we see strange behaviour when charging it will be reasonably easy to open the unit to check that connector.
Aurora
-
Maybe my X-Ray machine can see if the power connector is correctly mated in my unit. The problem will be seeing through or around the Battery. I'll take a look later.
Aurora
-
I am starting to think FLIR could be playing games over the true resolution of the LEPTON 3. Having re visited all the FLIR blurb I get the definite feeling that they did not want to specify the physical pixel count
I would comment further if I had a working unit but as mine was DoA
..well if they don't want the old one back I'd be happy to take a look inside to confirm the physical pixel count ;D
-
Is the Image quality that bad?
Although I couldn't compare side to side I'd say it was better than the Seek, definitely less noise.
MSX is a big help to improve readability of image - there will be some filtering to scale up the IR image to the phone's screen resolution.
-
BTW just for fun I used the UsbWebCamera App to connect my E4 ub UVC mode to the phone and it works just fine - framerate and lag are not much worse than on the E4's own screen!
Certainly do you know the thread "Flir Ex: Realtime raw radiometric data streaming via UVC ;)
It's simple, to patch the libuvc library for android to get a E4 RAW stream
Unfortunately the Flir One G2 is not a UVC camera
Plugging it into my linux box lsusb -vv gives the following
Bus 002 Device 007: ID 09cb:1996
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x09cb
idProduct 0x1996
bcdDevice 1.08
iManufacturer 1 FLIR Systems
iProduct 2 FLIR ONE Camera
iSerial 3 FLIRONEF0xxxxxxxxx
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 96
bNumInterfaces 3
bConfigurationValue 3
iConfiguration 4 SBIBDP Configuration
bmAttributes 0xc0
Self Powered
MaxPower 0mA
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 5 iAP Interface
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x81 EP 1 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x02 EP 2 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 1
bNumEndpoints 0
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 6 com.flir.rosebud.fileio
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 6 com.flir.rosebud.fileio
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x04 EP 4 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 2
bAlternateSetting 1
bNumEndpoints 0
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 7 com.flir.rosebud.frame
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 2
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 7 com.flir.rosebud.frame
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x85 EP 5 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x06 EP 6 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Device Qualifier (for other device speed):
bLength 10
bDescriptorType 6
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
bNumConfigurations 1
Device Status: 0x0001
Self Powered
filtered
>grep -i interface FlirOne.txt
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bNumInterfaces 3
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 0
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 5 iAP Interface
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 1
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 6 com.flir.rosebud.fileio
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 1
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 6 com.flir.rosebud.fileio
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 7 com.flir.rosebud.frame
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 2
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 7 com.flir.rosebud.frame
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
the seek camera has also a iAP Interface
The libseek library is using the first interface iAP Interface
https://github.com/zougloub/libseek
(http://i.imgur.com/xYgcAoc.png)
>grep -i interface seek.txt
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bNumInterfaces 2
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 0
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 3 iAP Interface
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 1
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 4 com.thermal.pir206.1
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 1
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 240
bInterfaceProtocol 1
iInterface 4 com.thermal.pir206.1
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
compare with E4 UVC camera
check Flir E4 USB announcements
$ lsusb -v
Bus 001 Device 006: ID 09cb:1007
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 239 Miscellaneous Device
bDeviceSubClass 2 ?
bDeviceProtocol 1 Interface Association
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x09cb
idProduct 0x1007
bcdDevice 0.00
iManufacturer 7 FLIR Systems
iProduct 8 FLIR Ex-Series
iSerial 0
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 241
bNumInterfaces 3
bConfigurationValue 1
iConfiguration 0
bmAttributes 0x80
(Bus Powered)
MaxPower 500mA
Interface Association:
bLength 8
bDescriptorType 11
bFirstInterface 0
bInterfaceCount 2
bFunctionClass 14 Video
bFunctionSubClass 3 Video Interface Collection
bFunctionProtocol 0
iFunction 10 FLIR USB Video
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 1
bInterfaceClass 14 Video
bInterfaceSubClass 1 Video Control
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 2 FLIR Ex-Series
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 13
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (HEADER)
bcdUVC 1.00
wTotalLength 85
dwClockFrequency 0.001000MHz
bInCollection 1
baInterfaceNr( 0) 1
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 2 (INPUT_TERMINAL)
bTerminalID 1
wTerminalType 0x0201 Camera Sensor
bAssocTerminal 0
iTerminal 0
wObjectiveFocalLengthMin 0
wObjectiveFocalLengthMax 0
wOcularFocalLength 0
bControlSize 3
bmControls 0x00020260
Focus (Absolute)
Focus (Relative)
Zoom (Absolute)
Focus, Auto
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 3 (OUTPUT_TERMINAL)
bTerminalID 3
wTerminalType 0x0101 USB Streaming
bAssocTerminal 0
bSourceID 6
iTerminal 0
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 4 (SELECTOR_UNIT)
bUnitID 4
bNrInPins 1
baSource( 0) 1
iSelector 0
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 11
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 5 (PROCESSING_UNIT)
Warning: Descriptor too short
bUnitID 5
bSourceID 4
wMaxMultiplier 0
bControlSize 2
bmControls 0x00000217
Brightness
Contrast
Hue
Sharpness
Gain
iProcessing 0
bmVideoStandards 0x1b
None
NTSC - 525/60
SECAM - 625/50
NTSC - 625/50
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
bLength 27
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 6 (EXTENSION_UNIT)
bUnitID 6
guidExtensionCode {d41f59fa-5094-463a-b3bb-e7858a831fa3}
bNumControl 4
bNrPins 1
baSourceID( 0) 5
bControlSize 2
bmControls( 0) 0x0f
bmControls( 1) 0x00
iExtension 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x81 EP 1 IN
bmAttributes 3
Transfer Type Interrupt
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0008 1x 8 bytes
bInterval 16
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 1
bInterfaceClass 14 Video
bInterfaceSubClass 2 Video Streaming
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 14
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 1 (INPUT_HEADER)
bNumFormats 1
wTotalLength 79
bEndPointAddress 130
bmInfo 0
bTerminalLink 3
bStillCaptureMethod 0
bTriggerSupport 0
bTriggerUsage 0
bControlSize 1
bmaControls( 0) 27
VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 27
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 4 (FORMAT_UNCOMPRESSED)
bFormatIndex 1
bNumFrameDescriptors 1
guidFormat {59555932-0000-1000-8000-00aa00389b71}
bBitsPerPixel 16
bDefaultFrameIndex 1
bAspectRatioX 0
bAspectRatioY 0
bmInterlaceFlags 0x00
Interlaced stream or variable: No
Fields per frame: 2 fields
Field 1 first: No
Field pattern: Field 1 only
bCopyProtect 0
VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
bLength 38
bDescriptorType 36
bDescriptorSubtype 5 (FRAME_UNCOMPRESSED)
bFrameIndex 1
bmCapabilities 0x03
Still image supported
Fixed frame-rate
wWidth 320
wHeight 240
dwMinBitRate 912384
dwMaxBitRate 912384
dwMaxVideoFrameBufferSize 153600
dwDefaultFrameInterval 2666664
bFrameIntervalType 3
dwFrameInterval( 0) 666666
dwFrameInterval( 1) 1333332
dwFrameInterval( 2) 2666664
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x82 EP 2 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 2
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 8 Mass Storage
bInterfaceSubClass 6 SCSI
bInterfaceProtocol 80 Bulk-Only
iInterface 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x04 EP 4 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Device Qualifier (for other device speed):
bLength 10
bDescriptorType 6
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 239 Miscellaneous Device
bDeviceSubClass 2 ?
bDeviceProtocol 1 Interface Association
bMaxPacketSize0 64
bNumConfigurations 1
Device Status: 0x0000
(Bus Powered)
>grep -i interface E4.txt
bDeviceProtocol 1 Interface Association
bNumInterfaces 3
Interface Association:
bFirstInterface 0
bInterfaceCount 2
bFunctionSubClass 3 Video Interface Collection
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 0
bInterfaceClass 14 Video
bInterfaceSubClass 1 Video Control
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 2 FLIR Ex-Series
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
baInterfaceNr( 0) 1
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
VideoControl Interface Descriptor:
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 1
bInterfaceClass 14 Video
bInterfaceSubClass 2 Video Streaming
bInterfaceProtocol 0
iInterface 0
VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
VideoStreaming Interface Descriptor:
Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber 2
bInterfaceClass 8 Mass Storage
bInterfaceSubClass 6 SCSI
bInterfaceProtocol 80 Bulk-Only
iInterface 0
bDeviceProtocol 1 Interface Association
-
I do not like the look of that screen connection mess on top of the USB plug !
I am starting to think FLIR could be playing games over the true resolution of the LEPTON 3. Having re visited all the FLIR blurb I get the definite feeling that they did not want to specify the physical pixel count. There is even comment in one pre release document saying that picture appearance is more important than resolution ! This almost appeared to say that the new LEPTON had better image manipulation 'magic'. I wonder if we are back to our old friend of cheap low resolution imaging chips. Namely interpolation.
I would comment further if I had a working unit but as mine was DoA I will have to wait to see the images on my phone.
I will do a side by side comparison of the ONE with two other 160*120 pixel cameras. If FLIR are not being totally honest about the 160*120 physical resolution I think we will spot it.
If this is smoke and mirrors marketing crap, my camera will be heading back to FLIR pronto. I still have the email confirming physical resolution as 160*120 from FLIR CS.
I should have stuck with professional thermal cameras. At least they have real specs and you can trust them !
Aurora
I think this is just the consequence of 12um pixels paired with that small lens.
The "picture appearance is more important than resolution" quote is probably aimed at people comparing the FLIR to the Seek thermal (since the Seek is still higher res but arguably worse picture)
-
I am starting to think FLIR could be playing games over the true resolution of the LEPTON 3.
...
This almost appeared to say that the new LEPTON had better image manipulation 'magic'.
a resolution test with a heating wire will show the true resolution
one square = one sensor pixel of Flir Exx
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/?action=dlattach;attach=118919;image)
the result is really sharp (thanks to good optics of the Flir Exx)
Wow
...
one square = one sensor pixel of Flir One G1 (80x60)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/?action=dlattach;attach=118913;image)
Well, the result is definite poorer, as the 80x60 crop of the Exx ...
I love the artefacts around the heating wire on the RAW image of the Flir One G1 :D
-
Well the Faxitron is warming up and I will see is I can get any useful imaging of my units internal. The battery will be a PITA though.
Mike,
Sadly FLIR want the dead unit back. No surprises there. Any decent company will want to characterise production failures to avoid repetition. Pity though. I would have loved to keep it for the core alone. FLIR do not strike me as that generous though.
Aurora
-
When you will make a comparison with other thermal cameras with similar resolution; please make some photos in the dark so that msx won't interfere.
Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
-
The issue wit taking pictures in the dark is the noise floor of the visible light camera. It may add noise to the image as the MSX algorithm searches for edges in the noise ? I can certainly give it ago though.
Aurora
-
It would be interesting to see the same scenes with and without light so we can see what happens with the details & noise...
Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
-
I have tried to X-Ray my faulty FLIR ONE G2 to see if its power connector is correctly fitted. Sadly no dice, there was too much in the way obscuring the connector. Its going back to FLIR tomorrow anyway.
Images are here if anyone wishes to see them:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/the-x-ray-image-thread-by-aurora-various-electronics-via-x-ray-imaging/msg750572/#msg750572 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/the-x-ray-image-thread-by-aurora-various-electronics-via-x-ray-imaging/msg750572/#msg750572)
Aurora
-
Can MSX not be turned off? It seems like more of an annoyance than anything else, because I would use a Flir One for macro-type imaging than anything else.
-
You can Stick "milky" tape in Front of the Camera
-
You can Stick "milky" tape in Front of the Camera
Yes - if you just blank it out, the camara turns up the gain & noise becomes annoying ( the software really should be able to sense that the light level is low and disable MSX).
Using translucent tape keeps the light level up while suppressing the edges
-
I have heard from Bill on another matter and have taken the opportunity to ask him about the apparent slow frame rate of the Android camera. I hope he may respond on this with news of whether they expect to improve the situation.
Aurora
-
I have received a response from Bill on the frame rate issue on some Android platforms.
When developing the Android variant of the FLIR ONE, FLIR used the Samsung S5 as the development platform. They worked to ensure that the frame rate was similar to that of the FLIR ONE GII on the iOS platform.
The fact that there are many very different Android platforms has proved challenging for the developers as their code does not perform the same on all of them. Bill has stated that they are very aware of the frame rate issue on some platforms and continue to work on it.
Bill helped me out with the supply of some professional software when FLIR Customer Services could not. He is a very friendly and helpful gentleman.
Aurora
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(http://retroactive.be/img/i/ra55ef7bdd162fd744b.jpg)
Can anyone identify the IR protective window material ?
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Silicon, the same as for the lens used in the LEPTON.
I have not worked with Silicon lenses and windows before but they appear to work OK. How good they are compared to Germanium or GASIR, I do not know.
Aurora
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I got mine yesterday, but the micro-usb connector on my Nexus 5 is backwards, so i can only take thelfies... I actually got a micro-usb extension cable, but for some reason it does not work (the Flir One app does not recognize the device if it's plugged in via the cable). However if I use the micro-usb extension cable together with my charger cable and use it to connect the phone to the pc, i can even transfer data, so the data lines seem to be ok. What else could be wrong. Is there something i need to consider when buying a cable?
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I got mine yesterday, but the micro-usb connector on my Nexus 5 is backwards, so i can only take thelfies... I actually got a micro-usb extension cable, but for some reason it does not work (the Flir One app does not recognize the device if it's plugged in via the cable). However if I use the micro-usb extension cable together with my charger cable and use it to connect the phone to the pc, i can even transfer data, so the data lines seem to be ok. What else could be wrong. Is there something i need to consider when buying a cable?
Yes, it must be an OTG-compliant extension cable.
In such cables, the ID pin is shorted to GND to let the phone know that it should be a host instead of a device. But most cables out there leave it unconnected internally.
You can carefully insert a small strand of wire across the contacts and get it working.
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Here's a short video taken with my F1 G2 for iOS if anyone is interested in seeing the frame rate that the iOS version is getting and wish to compare with their android's frame rate.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpoa6b766efneeg/video%20jul%2029%2C%206%2019%2057%20pm.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpoa6b766efneeg/video%20jul%2029%2C%206%2019%2057%20pm.mov?dl=0)
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Yes, it must be an OTG-compliant extension cable.
In such cables, the ID pin is shorted to GND to let the phone know that it should be a host instead of a device. But most cables out there leave it unconnected internally.
You can carefully insert a small strand of wire across the contacts and get it working.
Thanks, I'll try that. But I don't understand how this is necessary, because when I plug it in directly, without any cable, then the pins are not shorted either (or are they shorted internally in the flir one? but then a straight cable should work as well?)
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Here's a short video taken with my F1 G2 for iOS if anyone is interested in seeing the frame rate that the iOS version is getting and wish to compare with their android's frame rate.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpoa6b766efneeg/video%20jul%2029%2C%206%2019%2057%20pm.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpoa6b766efneeg/video%20jul%2029%2C%206%2019%2057%20pm.mov?dl=0)
thanks
I see more dropped frames than with Flir One G1 in this youtube video:
(the resolution is horrible)
start from 01:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osy-EN_UHAA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osy-EN_UHAA)
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Thanks, I'll try that. But I don't understand how this is necessary, because when I plug it in directly, without any cable, then the pins are not shorted either (or are they shorted internally in the flir one? but then a straight cable should work as well?)
Because the cable leaves the ID pin unconnected. Standard USB only has 4pins, MicroUSB has 5 (5th pin is ID). Inside the FLIR One ID is shorted to ground, but if your extension cable doesn't connect the ID pin to the FLIR One, then the phone can't detect that it's shorted.
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Because the cable leaves the ID pin unconnected. Standard USB only has 4pins, MicroUSB has 5 (5th pin is ID). Inside the FLIR One ID is shorted to ground, but if your extension cable doesn't connect the ID pin to the FLIR One, then the phone can't detect that it's shorted.
Ehm yeah, pretty obvious now :) thanks
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Just received my Flir one for Android and thought I'd share a few observations I haven't seen mentioned on the forum.
I ordered on the 10th of August and it arrived today (10th September).
I have tried it on a YotaPhone 2 (snapdragon 800) and a Galaxy S5 and both work without issue. So for anyone worried about performance, I'd say any 2 year old flagship phone should be able to run it fine at full FPS (9hz).
There is also support for android wear but the delay is about 2-3 seconds, so it's really just a gimmick. Speaking of:
Themalception 8)!
(http://i.imgur.com/sv3qnfc.jpg)
Regarding the resolution, I'm pretty sure it's 160x120 thermal resolution. I took a picture of some nichrome wire and played with the ranges in Flir Tools to bring out the details:
(http://i.imgur.com/EvChL2w.png)
Dividing the number of pixels/step by the vertical resolution gives 160px. See post #320 for update. Looks like it might only be 128x96. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg752153/#msg752153 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg752153/#msg752153)
Finally, sometimes there is a gradient and/or banding (both images are of a wood surface with even temperature):
(http://i.imgur.com/LZ7Wpax.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zh3G0oU.jpg)
In this example there is a delta of 1.5C from the centre to the edge. It does seem to only happen when first turning the camera on and disappears after 20-30 seconds and a few calibrations. I guess it's just the lepton sensor heating up.
If I find anything else, I'll post an update :)
p.s., The white squares in the images is me bluring out the gps coordinates that flir tools automatically adds...
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Found one more thing:
Whilst the official temp range is -20 to 120C, the camera will go from at least -34 to 150C.
The Android app will simply report any value above 120C as ">120C", but if you view the picture in Flir Tools, that range goes up to 150.
Picture of the sky (it was cloudy, so I don't know the minimum temp yet):
(http://i.imgur.com/R7j8ZhJ.jpg)
Picture of the hob:
(http://i.imgur.com/UGKMSb6.jpg)
Flir Tools adds a little warning triangle next to any measurement above 120c and will top out at 150.2C.
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I wonder what the accuracy is like below the official "-20C". We know the accuracy on the FLIR E4 is pretty bad a low temperatures.
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Regarding the resolution, I'm pretty sure it's 160x120 thermal resolution. I took a picture of some nichrome wire and played with the ranges in Flir Tools to bring out the details:
(http://i.imgur.com/EvChL2w.png)
Dividing the number of pixels/step by the vertical resolution gives 160px.
:-+
You can't post the original image because your embedded gps coordinates.
But can you post the RAW values from your nichrome wire?
Thanks
exiftool -b -RawThermalImage FLIR0080.jpg > t1.pngsee https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg348398/#msg348398 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg348398/#msg348398)
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But can you post the RAW values from your nichrome wire?
Here you go (I think t9 is probably the best):
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I just had a look at t9.png after doing the byteswap/auto-level from the other post.
It looks like the sensor is only 128*96 :-\
There are 19 points over a 47 pixel range giving a physical pixel -> image pixel ratio of 2.47.
Dividing the image resolution by 2.5 gives 128x96.
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I just had a look at t9.png after doing the byteswap/auto-level from the other post.
It looks like the sensor is only 128*96 :-\
There are 19 points over a 47 pixel range giving a physical pixel -> image pixel ratio of 2.47.
Dividing the image resolution by 2.5 gives 128x96.
Someone here prodded the crap out of a FLIR CS rep and eventually got them to admit it was 160x120. If that's not true it will be a mess.
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I just had a look at t9.png after doing the byteswap/auto-level from the other post.
It looks like the sensor is only 128*96 :-\
I used your original 16 bit image with a gamma adjustment to avoid overexposed areas.
some Imagemagick steps
see here for details:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/msg551882/#msg551882 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/msg551882/#msg551882)
>convert -define png:swap-bytes=on t9.png -auto-level -scale x1280 -gamma 0.6 -depth 8 t9swap.png
>convert -size 8x8 xc:none -stroke gray -strokewidth 0 -draw "line 0,0 0,7" -draw "line 0,0 7,0" 8x8.png
>convert -size 960x1280 tile:8x8.png 960x1280.png
>convert t9swap.png 960x1280.png -compose overlay -composite overlay.png
there are four fault locations:
1. your image is unsharpen (wrong distance)
2. the Flir One lens is a bottle bottom
3. the wire is to hot (optical crosstalk)
4. the Flir One G2 resolution of 160x120 is a fake
one square = one sensor pixel of Flir One
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=170700;image)
in this crop you can guess the real resolution of 160x120
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=170702;image)
not bad, but compare with a Flir Exx :-DD:
one square = one sensor pixel of Flir Exx
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/?action=dlattach;attach=118919;image)
the result is really sharp (thanks to good optics of the Flir Exx)
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Can MSX not be turned off? It seems like more of an annoyance than anything else, because I would use a Flir One for macro-type imaging than anything else.
Using the FLIR Tools application on iOS, not FLIR ONE, on the G1 I am able to turn the MSX blending off by selecting the circular icon to the bottom left and selecting IR only with no MSX; I've not noticed any gain issues. Is this not an option on the G2?
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Nathan,
Can you see the GPS location with your IOS Flir Tools?
On the Android Flir Tools Mobile I see my GPS location with the wrong E/W designation ie. it's placing me somewhere in China.
The samples that came with the Flir App show all E Longitude, and I'm wondering if there is a bug in the Flir One Android app, or Flir Tools Mobile.
I read out the exif data with exiftools and I think there may be some new/changed Tags in the Flir One files.
GPS tags from the exif data from my Flir One image with exiftool:
GPS Version ID : 2.2.0.0
GPS Latitude Ref : North
GPS Longitude Ref : West
GPS Altitude Ref : Above Sea Level
GPS Map Datum : WGS84
GPS Latitude : 38 deg 53' xx.yy" N
Camera Software : 1.0.0
sample images that came with the Flir One app, I see the following GPS tags:
GPS Version ID : 2.2.0.0
GPS Latitude Ref : North
GPS Longitude Ref : East
GPS Altitude Ref : Above Sea Level
GPS Map Datum : WGS84
GPS Latitude : 59 deg 27' 19.02" N
GPS Longitude : 18 deg 7' 50.04" E
GPS Position : 59 deg 27' 19.02" N, 18 deg 7' 50.04" E
Camera Software : 1.0.0
...ken...
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I was the one who plagued the life out of the FLIR CS Rep.
If you check in the FLIR one true resolution thread you will see the responses.
You will also see that I had to work hard in order to get a straight answer on the resolution question. Eventually I gave the CS Rep no choice except a "160x120 pixel ... Yes or no" answer. She actually covered herself by saying that according to the information she had gleaned, it is 160x120 pixels.
Let us just park that for a moment though.
What does 160x120 pixels actually mean in the real world ?
You can have the highest resolution sensor in the world and still destroy its performance with poor optics and/or lossy image processing. We know from the SEEK camera that the 12um pixel microbolometer is a noisy beast. Why should FLIR's version be any better. Remember FLIR took SEEK Thermal to court over the 12um technology usage. We do not know what FLIR is doing in its noise suppression algorithms so such could affect apparent resolution ?
What I do know is that the LEPTON appears impossibly small to my more conventional technology familiar eyes. Such miniaturisation may produce a tiny affordable core but I have to wonder if it is fair to expect it to perform as well as a more conventional larger core?
I am not defending FLIR in any way but I remain pretty amazed at what SEEK Thermal and FLIR have achieved. The lenses will be far from optimal and we may be witnessing the down side of the miniaturisation and cost cutting efforts. I am still very pleased that FLIR made this higher resolution version of the core though. Even if it does not perform as well as a conventional 160x120 microbolometer, it surely must be better than 80x60........ Or is it ?
I noted a comment on some FLIR blurb that the LEPTON 3, with 4x the pixels, provided imaging "as good as, or better than" the previous LEPTON core.
Such statements do make me wonder what FLIR knows about the new core that we do not.
When more of us have the new FLIR ONE GII, we may be able to assess its performance better.
At the end of the day, it is not the specs that are so important as the real world performance. When I compare the F1G2 with the TESTO and NEC 160x120 cameras we will have a better idea on the new 12um technologies performance.
Aurora
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I don't think this is a actual limitation of 12 micron pixels by the way - BAE's MicroIR T640 is a 640x480@60Hz 12um thermal imaging core currently found in some "IR Patrol" handheld products, where they are able to deliver resolution on par with conventional 640x480 sensors.
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Nathan,
Can you see the GPS location with your IOS Flir Tools?
On the Android Flir Tools Mobile I see my GPS location with the wrong E/W designation ie. it's placing me somewhere in China.
The samples that came with the Flir App show all E Longitude, and I'm wondering if there is a bug in the Flir One Android app, or Flir Tools Mobile.
I read out the exif data with exiftools and I think there may be some new/changed Tags in the Flir One files.
Ken, thanks so much for the response. You'll have to forgive me for my lack of experience with the Android Ecosystem. On iOS I have two FLIR-enabled tools available; "FLIR Tools" and "FLIR ONE"; with FLIR ONE I cannot disable MSX blending. With FLIR Tools I can disable this so that I am only presented an IR image with no MSX blending. The below homescreen image shows the respective icons which I assume would be similar on Android.
(http://i.imgur.com/gqLgyC6.png)
GPS tags from the exif data from my Flir One image with exiftool:
GPS Version ID : 2.2.0.0
GPS Latitude Ref : North
GPS Longitude Ref : West
GPS Altitude Ref : Above Sea Level
GPS Map Datum : WGS84
GPS Latitude : 38 deg 53' xx.yy" N
Camera Software : 1.0.0
sample images that came with the Flir One app, I see the following GPS tags:
GPS Version ID : 2.2.0.0
GPS Latitude Ref : North
GPS Longitude Ref : East
GPS Altitude Ref : Above Sea Level
GPS Map Datum : WGS84
GPS Latitude : 59 deg 27' 19.02" N
GPS Longitude : 18 deg 7' 50.04" E
GPS Position : 59 deg 27' 19.02" N, 18 deg 7' 50.04" E
Camera Software : 1.0.0
Ken, forgive me if I am telling you something you're already aware of, but on iOS there is a centralized "Location Services" daemon and configuration panel that allows me to selectively permit which applications may and may not talk with AGPS/GPS to determine location. FLIR Tools does not have such an option to grant permissions whereas FLIR ONE does. I took a FLIR ONE image without this enabled, and one with it enabled in the "Location Services" master panel as well as with-in the Settings of the FLIR ONE application itself. 'locationd' (Location Services) did not report this setting being used by FLIR ONE through historical audit (it will show applications which have used location services in the last 24 hours)
First image, no location services enabled. I use jhead but the EXIF output should be similar:
$ jhead IMG_0223.JPG
File name : IMG_0223.JPG
File size : 271324 bytes
File date : 2015:09:11 19:46:42
Camera make : FLIR Systems AB
Camera model : *
Date/Time : 2015:09:11 19:33:22
Resolution : 480 x 640
Focal length : 1.6mm
Focus dist. : 1.00m
Now, with location services enabled:
$ jhead IMG_0225.JPG
File name : IMG_0225.JPG
File size : 260735 bytes
File date : 2015:09:11 19:46:45
Camera make : FLIR Systems AB
Camera model : *
Date/Time : 2015:09:11 19:35:51
Resolution : 480 x 640
Focal length : 1.6mm
Focus dist. : 1.00m
As you can see above the location stamping for EXIF is devoid, which is quite interesting. I could be an outlier because I have an application firewall enabled as well as a strict pf (pfctl) firewall enabled that could be breaking it because I do not allow these applciations to communicate with the IPv4/IPv6 Internet except FLIR Tools over an RFC 1918 CIDR /32 for FTP.
Hopefully this is helpful and if not, I apologize in advance.
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Thanks Nathan,
It looks like there are a lot of differences between the IOS app and the Andriod app.
Well... Flir has had over a year of Flir One G1 on IOS to fiddle with the app. and there are a lot of things not present in the Android app. as it is relatively new.
I'd like to see some of those features on Android and IMHO the GPS data shoulld be included in the IOS images too.
But my real question is:
Is the problem I'm seeing in Flir Tools Mobile related to the Flir One Android app, or is it a bug in the Flir Tools Mobile app.
I've asked Flir One support and not received any answer but:
"This could be a result of the fact that the FLIR ONE was not designed or tested with FLIR Tools"
How can Flir develop a mobile app and then a brand new shiny Android Thermal Imaging product and not test it???
The second question is about the exif tags in the Flir One file: They seem to be different between the sample image and my image. Are there new Tags? does exiftool properly parse the Flir One tags in Android... how about IOS image files.
The potential privacy issue prevents lots of folks from posting raw Flir One images since they contain serial #'s as well as location data..... me too.
It would be nice to be able to scrub this data, either in the Flir One app, Flir Tools Mobile, or exiftool.
As another point of interest, I was able to get the Flir Tools Mobile app running under Archon: http://archon-runtime.github.io/ (http://archon-runtime.github.io/)
which allows Android runtime .apk's to be installed and run under the Chrome Browser.
...ken...
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In Windows you can right-click on the image, go to Properties and there you can erase many image properties. Should retest with perhaps Exiftool to check what is erased what is not.
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I did a bit of work in finding the real resolution of new Flir One. I drew a line in the middle of each "bump" of a wire and then aligned grid so that it matched all the lines perfectly.
My conclusion is that Flir One v2 outputs images with approx 94x125 resolution. Perhaps the sensor is really 120x160 but the images are not.
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It would be nice to be able to scrub this data, either in the Flir One app, Flir Tools Mobile, or exiftool.
Phil from exiftool decided that the flir tags are non editable.
But Exiftool can show you (-v5) the hex code and then you can reset the values to zero with a hex editor.
$ exiftool -v5 IMG_1854_untouched.JPG | grep -C10 "52 00 00 00 01"
06a6: 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 44 35 41 34 [............D5A4]
06b6: 43 32 31 43 37 36 44 30 41 38 36 45 41 46 37 35 [C21C76D0A86EAF75]
06c6: 46 36 31 43 46 46 42 33 34 32 31 45 00 00 07 00 [F61CFFB3421E....]
06d6: 00 00 01 00 04 00 00 00 02 02 00 00 01 00 02 00 [................]
06e6: 02 00 00 00 4e 00 00 00 02 00 05 00 03 00 00 00 [....N...........]
06f6: 22 07 00 00 03 00 02 00 02 00 00 00 57 00 00 00 ["...........W...]
0706: 04 00 05 00 03 00 00 00 3a 07 00 00 05 00 01 00 [........:.......]
0716: 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 12 00 02 00 06 00 00 00 [................]
0726: 52 07 00 00 00 00 00 00 1b 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 [R...............]
0736: 34 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 54 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 [4.......T...d...]
0746: 52 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 15 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 [R...............]
0756: 02 07 00 00 64 00 00 00 57 47 53 38 34 00 07 00 [....d...WGS84...]
0766: 03 01 03 00 01 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 12 01 03 00 [................]
0776: 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 1a 01 05 00 01 00 00 00 [................]
0786: b2 07 00 00 1b 01 05 00 01 00 00 00 ba 07 00 00 [................]
0796: 28 01 03 00 01 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 01 02 04 00 [(...............]
07a6: 01 00 00 00 c2 07 00 00 02 02 04 00 01 00 00 00 [................]
07b6: 6d 37 00 00 00 00 00 00 48 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 [m7......H.......]
07c6: 48 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 ff d8 ff c0 00 11 08 00 [H...............]
07d6: 78 00 a0 03 01 22 00 02 11 01 03 11 01 ff c4 00 [x...."..........]
07e6: 1f 00 00 01 05 01 01 01 01 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 [................]
--
--
| | 06ea: 4e 00 [N.]
| | 2) GPSLatitude = 27 52 0.84 (27/1 52/1 84/100)
| | - Tag 0x0002 (24 bytes, rational64u[3]):
| | 072e: 1b 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 34 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 [........4.......]
| | 073e: 54 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 [T...d...]
| | 3) GPSLongitudeRef = W
| | - Tag 0x0003 (2 bytes, string[2]):
| | 0702: 57 00 [W.]
| | 4) GPSLongitude = 82 21 17.94 (82/1 21/1 1794/100)
| | - Tag 0x0004 (24 bytes, rational64u[3]):
| | 0746: 52 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 15 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 [R...............]
| | 0756: 02 07 00 00 64 00 00 00 [....d...]
| | 5) GPSAltitudeRef = 0
| | - Tag 0x0005 (1 bytes, int8u[1]):
| | 071a: 00 [.]
| | 6) GPSMapDatum = WGS84
| | - Tag 0x0012 (6 bytes, string[6]):
| | 075e: 57 47 53 38 34 00 [WGS84.]
I think the simplest way is writing a short regex/awk srcipt to zero around the WGS84 marker.
There are two entries for gps coordinates.
First entry is the regular jpg exif header.
Second entry you found in the proprietary Flir exif header.
$ hexdump -C IMG_1854_untouched.JPG | grep -B5 S84
00000710 00 00 05 00 01 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 12 00 |................|
00000720 02 00 06 00 00 00 52 07 00 00 00 00 00 00 1b 00 |......R.........|
00000730 00 00 01 00 00 00 34 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 54 00 |......4.......T.|
00000740 00 00 64 00 00 00 52 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 15 00 |..d...R.........|
00000750 00 00 01 00 00 00 02 07 00 00 64 00 00 00 57 47 |..........d...WG| !!!
00000760 53 38 34 00 07 00 03 01 03 00 01 00 00 00 06 00 |S84.............|
--
00029300 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 4e 00 57 00 00 00 00 |.........N.W....|
00029310 00 89 1c ac 6c ed dd 3b 40 15 15 38 19 b8 96 54 |....l..;@..8...T|
00029320 40 00 00 80 bf 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |@...............|
00029330 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................|
00029340 00 00 00 80 bf 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 |................|
00029350 bf 00 00 80 bf 00 00 80 bf 57 47 53 38 34 00 00 |.........WGS84..| !!!
image source https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg712432/#msg712432 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg712432/#msg712432)
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I did a bit of work in finding the real resolution of new Flir One. I drew a line in the middle of each "bump" of a wire and then aligned grid so that it matched all the lines perfectly.
My conclusion is that Flir One v2 outputs images with approx 94x125 resolution. Perhaps the sensor is really 120x160 but the images are not.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=170789;image)
You are right, after correction of offset from a half pixel the image looks better.
Don't forget that only the Flir Exx takes sharp images from a wire. The Flir Ex images are also poor.
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thomas123,
Thanks for the heads up on the exiftool -v5 option, most useful!!
Looks like Flir has added some new tags and another GPSInfo SubDirectory:
| | FLIR Record 0x2b, offset 0x1b730, length 0x00b8
| | 6) GPSInfo (SubDirectory) -->
| | - Tag 0x002b (184 bytes):
Lat & Lon references as ascii chars N/S E/W at offset 0x09 & 0x0b.
Latitude & Longitude as double precision floats at offset 0x10 & 0x18.
Room for other info as well, total of 184 bytes.
using exiftool -v5 <filename> I examined the 2 areas of GPSInfo in the following 3 images:
FLIR0002_sample.jpg Included with the Flir One App for Android
IMG_1854_untouched.JPG image source https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg712432/#msg712432 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg712432/#msg712432)
flir_20150908T144845.jpg I took this on 9/8/2105.
FLIR0002_sample.jpg has a creation date of 5/16/2014 shows a GPSLongitude of E 18 in Flir Tools Mobile.
The normal GPSInfo tags also show E 18 and the sign of the double float is + in the additional Flir gps data, which is correct.
Lat & Lon ref in the additional Flir gps data are correct.
Both GPSLatitude & GPSLongitude Tags are present in the normal exif GPSInfo section.
I don't have any early samples from W Lon or S Lat so it's hard to know what Flir Tools Mobile would show.
IMG_1854_untouched.JPG has a creation date of 7/2/2015 shows GPSLongitude of W 82 in Flir Tools Mobile.
The normal exif GPSInfo tags shows the same, BUT the sign of the double float is + in the additional Flir gps data which should be -.
Lat & Lon ref in the additional Flir gps data are correct.
Both GPSLatitude & GPSLongitude are present in the normal exif GPSInfo section.
flir_20150908T144845.jpg has a creation date of 9/8/2015 shows a GPSLongitude of E 107 in Flir Tools Mobile which should be W 107.
The normal exif GPSLongitudeRef tag correctly shows W. The sign if the double float is - in the additional Flir gps data, which is correct.
Lat & Lon ref in the additional Flir gps data are correct.
The GPSLongitude Tag is missing from the normal exif GPSInfo section.
I conclude that Flir fixed the sign problem between 7/2 and 9/8, BUT Flir tools Mobile hasn't caught up, AND Flir
messed up the normal exif GPSInfo section by leaving out the GPSLongitude Tag.
So there are issues in both the Flir One App, and in Flir Tools Mobie App (for Android).
Please refer to the gps.txt file that is attached that shows the details of the exiftool data dumps.
also are attached screenshots of the Flir Tools Mobile info screen for each of the image files.
...ken...
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So, do you think we can expect a resolution doubling in another 24 months? I'm being snarky. The resolution is ridiculous. I know Seek has terrible calibration and consistency issues, but someone needs to pick up the ball and make high-rez smart phone modules that are precise. This is capitalism we're talking about here. Where are the competitors?
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There is therm-app module with high thermal resolution but it's 4 times the price of flir or seek.
Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
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The Downside of the F1 in Europe/Germany is, that is very duifficult to purchase one...
Look when they announced the second gen. Its still not availoble here, which causes that I would take the SeeK.
Has someone an idea why there is such a massive Delay? Thats Downside ridiculous
I dont care if the the Image is a "little" bit more noisy but bla bla bla...you get the Point. ;)
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I wish they'd make a ~30 Hz one (for the US). I don't own a F1, but from all the videos I have seen, the refresh rate makes anything other than static (non moving camera and subject) observation nauseating. Plus, with a higher frame rate, it might be possible to do some sub-sampling interpolation type tricks to get a higher amount of pixel data.
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Hardware Revisions :)
I got on F1v2 about a month ago and I do like the size and usability so I was lucky? and picked up another one on eBay UK at a discount (GBP 145'ish / $220'ish) -
First one - reports hardware revision D
2nd one - reports hardware Revision G
So they a quickly stepping through the revisions. I don't know which one is best - but one of them is my dads "pre-Christmas" present :)
I have a Flir Franken4 for the serious stuff.. - but since I'm in the middle of packing up in the Middle East and moving the the wet cold UK - I have not had time to test so much between them. But they are great for HVAC use and testing the underfloor heating in our new house :)
One issue - I kept target on a very matte object - but every time it ran the internal calibration - temperature of the target shot up by about 1 - 1 1/2 deg c. Then it would slowly settle down to a stable temperature and stay there - until the thing re calibrated again. (This was all after the ~ sign had gone)
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Firstly, I understand the images below are above the temperature specs of the Flir One, But does anyone know what the black blob is??
Sorry for using fahrenheit, we walk backwards in the US.
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Firstly, I understand the images below are above the temperature specs of the Flir One, But does anyone know what the black blob is??
Sorry for using fahrenheit, we walk backwards in the US.
I think the sensor is just too overexposed - those spots read -40C according to FLIR Tools, which I think is as low as it goes.
The same thing happens on my Therm-App - if I point at a source over ~500C, the image/temperature just reads -20C.
I assume this is similar to what happens on some digital cameras (esp. cheaper ones) which display a black spot if you point them at the sun.
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But does anyone know what the black blob is??
Great!
A sensor overload show us the real pixel size and the resize algorithm to 200% without influence of a unsharpen lense
exiftool -b -RawThermalImage flir_20150914T001022.jpg > test.png
convert -define png:swap-bytes=on test.png -auto-level -scale x1280 -gamma 0.6 -depth 8 swap.png
convert -size 8x8 xc:none -stroke red -strokewidth 0 -draw "line 0,0 0,7" -draw "line 0,0 7,0" 8x8.png
convert -size 960x1280 tile:8x8.png -transparent white 960x1280.png
convert swap.png 960x1280.png -composite overlay.png
here a resized crop:
one square = one sensor pixel of Flir One G2 (160x120)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=171087;image)
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ok... and whats the result? 160x120? ???
btw. I've called FLIR in Frankfurt and asked them why there is a delay in the shipping --> high request in Europe/Germany
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ok... and whats the result? 160x120? ???
btw. I've called FLIR in Frankfurt and asked them why there is a delay in the shipping --> high request in Europe/Germany
see self: one red square = one sensor pixel of Flir One G2 (160x120)
I've called FLIR in Frankfurt and asked them why there is a delay in the shipping --> high request in Europe/Germany
Germany: I called with messgeraete-chemnitz.de and they ordered 100 x Flir One Android and 100x Flir One Iphone and can deliver at week 40.
Half the amount has already been sold...
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With this method the 120x160 does look more "right":
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=171104;image)
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So, do you think we can expect a resolution doubling in another 24 months? I'm being snarky. The resolution is ridiculous. I know Seek has terrible calibration and consistency issues, but someone needs to pick up the ball and make high-rez smart phone modules that are precise. This is capitalism we're talking about here. Where are the competitors?
ITAR gets in the way. Remember that this is ex-military tech.
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Both resolutions do not seem to fit perfectly, but is hard to tell because they seem to use a sophisticated interpolation algorithm.
Maybe this inverted area is generated in software (integer overlow?) and not in the sensor itself?
On CMOS sensors the bright light effects the readout gates next to each pixel directly. Based on Mike's teardown the thermal sensor is a big array of passive NTCs, so an inversion of the signal should never happen.
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The microbolometer is an array or thermistors and the FLIR units are sun safe. Unlike a CCD that can suffer a charge well overflow, the microbolometer has no such issues.
An overload situation is most likely to occur in either the A to D due to limited dynamic range, or the software that interprets the A to D output receiving an unexpected value.
I have not seen this over range (not an overload) artefact in my industrial cameras. The resolution displayed in the artefact may not be from the microbolometer pixels and may come from a later processing stage.
As to the resolution..... Good work but I am mindful that what is displayed and stored on the phone has gone through a lot of processing to improve its appearance. Such processing can 'muddy the waters' somewhat. I could ask Bill about this as he seemed to welcome questions.
Fraser
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I have asked Bill Terre (VP & GM FLIR) for confirmation of the active pixels on the LEPTON 3. Hopefully he will provide a definitive comment on this matter.
Fraser
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OK peeps,
The definitive answer from Bill is that the LEPTON 3 microbolometer is in fact an array of 164x128 pixels. Bill answered that question so fast ! Great chap and he is the VP for heavens sake. Talk about approachable !
Fraser
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OK peeps,
The definitive answer from Bill is that the LEPTON 3 microbolometer is in fact an array of 164x128 pixels. Bill answered that question so fast ! Great chap and he is the VP for heavens sake. Talk about approachable !
Fraser
But are they all active and/or are they are all exposed to the application? Has anyone probed one over SPI to see what the actual data is? That would make things 1000x easier.
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OK peeps,
The definitive answer from Bill is that the LEPTON 3 microbolometer is in fact an array of 164x128 pixels. Bill answered that question so fast ! Great chap and he is the VP for heavens sake. Talk about approachable !
Fraser
But are they all active and/or are they are all exposed to the application? Has anyone probed one over SPI to see what the actual data is? That would make things 1000x easier.
the datasheets have already been posted here, no need to probe
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When you are fighting a resolution war against SEEK you tend to roll out your full capability. FLIR have stated the presence of 4X the resolution of the original Lepton and I think I will believe them.
Bill said he could not understand why a test showed a lower resolution. Good enough for me.
Fraser
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OK peeps,
The definitive answer from Bill is that the LEPTON 3 microbolometer is in fact an array of 164x128 pixels. Bill answered that question so fast ! Great chap and he is the VP for heavens sake. Talk about approachable !
Fraser
But are they all active and/or are they are all exposed to the application? Has anyone probed one over SPI to see what the actual data is? That would make things 1000x easier.
the datasheets have already been posted here, no need to probe
Surely the datasheet gives the resolution then. If not, counting the pixel data as it leaves the Lepton would be the best way to determine resolution, certainly better than overlaying grids on a hyper-processed image. From your Seek teardown we saw that there were a lot of elements that didn't make up the actual matrix of microbolometers used in imaging. Maybe the Lepton uses some of its pixels to gather uniformity data or something, such that the array is a well and true 164x128 but the data that is exposed over SPI is a matrix of smaller size. This would explain the image inconsistencies we see on pictures from it, while FLIR is technically correct about the number of elements. That is all I meant by it.
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Lepton 3:
The weakest link in the chain is the lens quality and not the resolution of the sensor.
(see my images from Flir Exx with a great manual focus lens)
by the way, independent of quadrupled pixel count we have the same artefacts around the heat wire and the magic patterns (on a RAW image!!) >:(
80x60 https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/msg551882/#msg551882 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/msg551882/#msg551882)
160x120 https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg752281/#msg752281 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg752281/#msg752281) (see right side)
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With regard to the LEPTON lens block... I was initially surprised to hear that the elements were silicon wafer technology. I had previously believed silicon lenses to be limited to use below 8um. That made them useful for only short and medium wave thermal imaging cores. Thorlabs sell silicon lenses and their data sheets also suggest an 8um wavelength limit. A further wavelength limitation is then applied to the lens in the form of the AR coating. Thorlabs lenses cut off at 3um as a result.
As FLIR have used silicon lenses instead of GASIR, I can only assume that they have overcome the wavelength limitations of silicon :-//
This is an interesting development in itself as such lenses may be fabricated quite cheaply.
Fraser
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I was initially surprised to hear that the elements were silicon wafer technology.
...
I can only assume that they have overcome the wavelength limitations of silicon
Interesting.
In this article the authors described that the silicon lens must be very thin.
So they produced a Fresnel lens on a thin silicon substrate!
https://www.osapublishing.org/ol/fulltext.cfm?uri=ol-39-11-3169&id=286383 (https://www.osapublishing.org/ol/fulltext.cfm?uri=ol-39-11-3169&id=286383)
Flir Lepton:
It's possibly that the fresnel patterns are on the back side of the (micro) lens?
I can't find a teardown of the lens...
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Uggggg ! I hope it isn't a fresnel lens design. Such do not make for great thermal imaging lenses.
Fresnel lenses made from certain plastics suitable for thermal lenses have been tried and the results have always been disappointing in terms of the image quality that they produced.
It would be great to better understand the LEPTON lens though.
I believe Mike may have a spare LEPTON 2 lens ? Maybe his Faxitron MX20 can image its cross section. He's a very busy chap at the moment though.
Fraser
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Lots of possibilities here. Biggest problem of diffractive lenses (Fresnel) is that they are wavelength dependent. Big problem for the nearly two to one wavelength interval of normal bolometer systems. Perhaps FLIR is accepting the sensitivity loss that comes with a narrower waveband (since they are ITAR limited on delivered sensitivity anyway) and using that trade space for a lower cost diffractive lens.
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I did dismantle the lens in my Lepton extreme teardown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YS39FWQgto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YS39FWQgto)
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Thanks Mike. Great tear down :-+
My faulty F1G2 arrived at FLIR's returns dept on Friday. No news of a replacement being despatched though :(
For info, Amazon are fulfilling the delivery of orders, but any repairs or exchanges are dealt with directly with FLIR. If I had been able to return the camera to Amazon, I would likely have received the new unit last week. Such is life. It's not a great start to my F1G2 ownership though :'(
Fortunately I am pretty much fully committed to my tidying of the garage. What a nightmare that is turning out to be. Next the shed, then the lab, and lastly the attic ;D
Fraser
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hello, hope good news! we are receiving the FLIR ONE for iOS and Android begin of October.
discount code: flironenew
free shipment to Europe (we ship from Italy)
here is the link for the two models:
- Android http://www.batterfly.com/shop/flir-one-android (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/flir-one-android)
- iOS http://www.batterfly.com/shop/flir-one-ios (http://www.batterfly.com/shop/flir-one-ios)
:-+
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...
it's the same price when I order it directly on amazon :/
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Well you don't get free shipping on Amazon so his offer is a bit better.
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Still no news on my replacement F1G2 Android :'(
Thinking of asking for a full refund. It's not as though I actually need another thermal camera.
Fraser
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Looks like GroupGets / PureEngineering has a Lepton 3 breakout board available.
https://vine.co/v/edPq5ZD9aO7
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I engaged the assistance of Bill Terre (VP FLIR) in getting a straight answer to what is happening on my replacement camera request.
Bill came through for me again and stated that a camera was ordered to be released for me last week. Bill advised that the Worldwide demand for the F1G2 was outstripping FLIR's ability to supply. It been a very successful launch !
If all goes to plan, I should receive my new camera this week.
Fraser
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As VP FLIR, Bill may need to look into improving company's communication with customers.
EDIT: You know what, I take this back. They've done a good job obtaining feedback from the customers
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-software-calling-home/msg549085/#msg549085 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-software-calling-home/msg549085/#msg549085)
EDIT2: Could Bill possibly provide his comments about FLIR "keeping in touch" with the customers that way ?
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After many and many emails I finally got my Flir One Android camera shipped.
Now I'm starting a new battle with Flir support to get the invoice ... I'm sure it was a very hard time at Flir to ship all these cameras.
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Anyone here managed to get an invoice for flir one android ? Flir support sent me a receipt of payment where even the supplier name and address is missing ... I can guess supplier name but not address.
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Just got my new flir one android last week.
Anyone working on a linux driver for this puppy? Works nice in android but I'd really like to hook it up to a linux machine. Also would prefer not to have the MSX feature and just get raw thermal images.
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Just got my new flir one android last week.
Anyone working on a linux driver for this puppy? Works nice in android but I'd really like to hook it up to a linux machine. Also would prefer not to have the MSX feature and just get raw thermal images.
I only bought the flir one android for my raspberry pi, but I'm waiting for delivery...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg750352/#msg750352 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg750352/#msg750352)
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I have just heard from FLIR CS.
My F1G2 Android replacement camera is being shipped tomorrow.
Even with the help of Bill it has taken a week to get it shipped following an order to do so. FLIR must be having real issues meeting the demand for these units.
With regard to my experience buying a FLIR ONE..... It could certainly have been better. I can forgive a DoA but not the non existent communications from those dealing with the returned camera.
Not FLIR's finest hour I regret to say. If they read this thread.... A lesson learned, keep your customers informed, especially if there is a delay involved. Basic customer care 101 stuff.
I cannot praise Bill Terre enough though. He engaged with CS on my behalf and was always very friendly. A most approachable Gentleman.
Fraser
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Would this thread tolerate a quick derail? I think the world's foremost Lepton hackers have all posted in it!
I found this device, the "Torrey Pines Logic T10-M" which claims to offer a 30 Hz refresh rate on a 80x60 Lepton. It also mentions an ITAR restriction on the product page. There's two cheaper versions which have the 9 Hz refresh, so I don't think it's just a case of specs being interpreted wrong. Is there such thing as a 30 Hz Lepton?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1123545-REG/torrey_pines_logic_tp_t10m_03_t10m_thermal_device_80x60.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1123545-REG/torrey_pines_logic_tp_t10m_03_t10m_thermal_device_80x60.html)
(http://i.imgur.com/bSeAhGa.jpg)
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Interesting find.
The units case is made on a 3D printer so it looks to be a small company producing it. Interested to read that it cannot see the Moon..... That's likely due to the low resolution and FOV.
I was not aware of a 30fps LEPTON. I am always wary when seeing a spec is 30Hz refresh as it can relate to the diplay module and not the camera core. This cameras does not attract comment on slow thermal image refresh though.
Thanks for sharing
Fraser
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Is there such thing as a 30 Hz Lepton?
Regardless if it exists, anything above 9Hz is ITAR controlled.
Edit:
Reference: http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=342&view=35781 (http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=342&view=35781)
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Interesting find.
The units case is made on a 3D printer so it looks to be a small company producing it. Interested to read that it cannot see the Moon..... That's likely due to the low resolution and FOV.
I was not aware of a 30fps LEPTON. I am always wary when seeing a spec is 30Hz refresh as it can relate to the diplay module and not the camera core. This cameras does not attract comment on slow thermal image refresh though.
Thanks for sharing
Fraser
If you watch this video, it is very clear that the sensor really is 30Hz.
https://youtu.be/FLmFeMxhwdM?t=1m28s
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Here is another video w more details
http://youtu.be/W2cz9wDsPTs (http://youtu.be/W2cz9wDsPTs)
Edit: and the guy is talking bullshit saying you can put it in front of your other optics and/or run a reddot through it.
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Is there such thing as a 30 Hz Lepton?
I'm told there is. The current Lepton outputs duplicated frames.
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Edit: and the guy is talking bullshit saying you can put it in front of your other optics and/or run a reddot through it.
Just wondering - why?
Surely if the screen and the lepton on this are aligned correctly, then looking through this through a red dot wouldn't disrupt the alignment of your sight?
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As I stated, a very interesting find.
FLIR have not previously advertised a 30fps LEPTON yet they could have offered our American friends the option of such as they do for the TAU etc. It did cross my mind that this software development company had hacked the LEPTON to release its full 30fps but that is probably not likely.
The fact that something is ITAR controlled technology does not prevent its purchase or use outside the USA. I have been using ITAR controlled FLIR cameras for many years. It just means that the cameras have additional paperwork involved in their purchase. FLIR do the paperwork when they sell you the camera via one of their official agents. ITAR would be an issue if you were using the core in your own product and wished to sell it though.
I think I will drop Bill an email asking about this higher frame rate LEPTON. He is head of OEM activities so should know of this weapon sighting aid.
Fraser
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au.rs have bumped their android eta to end of october. I think it was november recently.
Temporarily out of stock - back order for despatch 26/10/2015, delivery within 1 working days from despatch date.
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Edit: and the guy is talking bullshit saying you can put it in front of your other optics and/or run a reddot through it.
Just wondering - why?
Surely if the screen and the lepton on this are aligned correctly, then looking through this through a red dot wouldn't disrupt the alignment of your sight?
It takes very special "glass" to pass LWIR light. I'm sure they make thermal magnifiers, but they are not your run-of-the-mill sights.
If you watch this video, it is very clear that the sensor really is 30Hz.
https://youtu.be/FLmFeMxhwdM?t=1m28s
Yep, I don't see any kind of "motion estimation" trickery. Trying to stretch 9 Hz to 30 with software would look like barf.
Is there such thing as a 30 Hz Lepton?
I'm told there is. The current Lepton outputs duplicated frames.
Hi Mike. Does any documentation exist for this 30 Hz Lepton? This is the first I've ever seen one, so I'm still a little skeptical. Having a cheap 30 Hz core would open up many "motion-intensive" applications, like putting one on my car so I can drive at night with no headlights. ;D
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Edit: and the guy is talking bullshit saying you can put it in front of your other optics and/or run a reddot through it.
Just wondering - why?
Surely if the screen and the lepton on this are aligned correctly, then looking through this through a red dot wouldn't disrupt the alignment of your sight?
It takes very special "glass" to pass LWIR light. I'm sure they make thermal magnifiers, but they are not your run-of-the-mill sights.
Yes, but you're putting this in front of other optics. You're looking at the screen with the red dot. So there's nothing in front of the sensor.
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Edit: and the guy is talking bullshit saying you can put it in front of your other optics and/or run a reddot through it.
Just wondering - why?
Surely if the screen and the lepton on this are aligned correctly, then looking through this through a red dot wouldn't disrupt the alignment of your sight?
It takes very special "glass" to pass LWIR light. I'm sure they make thermal magnifiers, but they are not your run-of-the-mill sights.
Yes, but you're putting this in front of other optics. You're looking at the screen with the red dot. So there's nothing in front of the sensor.
Ah, yeah that should work. Might have some sort of parallax error depending on range. Even then, 80x60 won't be good enough for more than indoor/home use. Certainly not dropping hogs at 100m!
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Hi Mike. Does any documentation exist for this 30 Hz Lepton? This is the first I've ever seen one, so I'm still a little skeptical.
I was told that it exists by someone who couldn't say any more....
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Anyone here managed to get an invoice for flir one android ? Flir support sent me a receipt of payment where even the supplier name and address is missing ... I can guess supplier name but not address.
I emailed BEFIN@flir.com and asked for a VAT invoice for Order #: 205-9539343-???????? and got a PDF copy within the hour.
FLIR Systems Trading Belgium BVBA
Luxemburgstraat 2
2321 Meer
Belgium
VAT Reg.No. BE0835.731.610
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Hi Mike. Does any documentation exist for this 30 Hz Lepton? This is the first I've ever seen one, so I'm still a little skeptical.
I was told that it exists by someone who couldn't say any more....
I reached out to FLIR and was told that yes, it's a real product, but is OEM-only due to the restrictions. No datasheet either. We'll probably never see it unless it's harvested from a commercial product...
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Sounds like FLIR do not want the hassle of the red tape on such a low value item when selling to individuals. Understandable and this would likely also be the case for companies like Mouser, Farnell, RS and Digikey. The admin staff time has a very real cost for such companies.
A pity but let us not miss the fact that it is only a 80x60 core. It would seem logical that FLIR also have a 30fps 160x120 core as well :) A Lepton 4 with at least 320x240 would be interesting ;D
The Therm App appears to have set a high benchmark for image quality from a phone mounted camera, but at a cost. They also offer a 25fps version but ITAR red tape applies. I would certainly consider buying a Therm App if I did not already have a decent quality camera or two to use.
Fraser
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I finally got also the Invoice for my order ... since they cancelled my order by error I spent time to write at least 20 email to get everything ok.
Very scary experience with Flir support.
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Is this an (working) adapter, to connect a Flir One (Gen 2 Android) with a PC?
USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter
give it a try, but I dont think so,
maybe you need to solder pin4+5 to make it OTG ?
http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/how-to-make-your-own-usb-otg-cable-for-an-android-smartphone-29503.html (http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/how-to-make-your-own-usb-otg-cable-for-an-android-smartphone-29503.html)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/?action=dlattach;attach=167818;image)
A month ago I asked here, if somebody has an idea how to connect a Flir One Android with a PC / Raspberry Pi.
Nobody with a Flir One Android gave us a feedback and I'm still waiting for the delivery. :(
I know the concept of the OTG USB and I'm afraid there is no usb compliant solution if the Flir One a USB host...
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The Flir is a normal USB device (vs host). Electrically, just connecting the 4 power+data pins should be sufficient to get any other host to recognize it. The shorted pins are a signal to tell a OTG device (like a phone) whether or not it needs to be a host or a device.
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ok
The Flir One works "normal" usb device (the Flir plug switch the smartphone to the OTG mode).
But I must solder a own cable from a cut micro usb extension cable with a female micro usb plug.
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ok
The Flir One works "normal" usb device (the Flir plug switch the smartphone to the OTG mode).
But I must solder a own cable from a cut micro usb extension cable with a female micro usb plug.
Will this not work? http://www.amazon.de/dp/B008ADIRUY (http://www.amazon.de/dp/B008ADIRUY)
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That's what I used to connect my Flir One Android to my development Linux box:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg750052/#msg750052 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-flir-products/msg750052/#msg750052)
Since Flir uses Vendor specific Classes for most of the interface descriptors, it will be necessary for someone to attach a USB analyzer in between the Flir One and the phone/tablet and record the USB transactions.
This MAY allow some reverse engineering on the usb protocol which MAY lead to a non-closed application that can run on a desktop PC.
This was done with the Seek Thermal somewhere around this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg536681/#msg536681 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/msg536681/#msg536681)
It was a lot of fun and lots of folks worked together.
There is even some documentation:
https://github.com/lod/seek-thermal-documentation/wiki (https://github.com/lod/seek-thermal-documentation/wiki)
All this was done way before Seek released any of their SDK's
...ken...
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FLIR just released another new product - a thermal imaging.... clamp meter. They're really trying to put the lepton into so many products.
https://youtu.be/UOIgoK2p2gE
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FLIR just released another new product - a thermal imaging.... clamp meter. They're really trying to put the lepton into so many products.
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Nicolas-Cage-Trying-to-hold-in-laughter.gif)
At least we know the margins are good on Lepton!
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(http://www.flirmedia.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/m/r/mr160_straight.jpg)
I noticed their MR160 moisture meter over the weekend.
http://www.flirmedia.com/MMC/THG/Brochures/TM_0019/TM_0019_US.pdf (http://www.flirmedia.com/MMC/THG/Brochures/TM_0019/TM_0019_US.pdf)
http://www.tequipment.net/flir-mr160-thermal-imaging-moisture-meter/ (http://www.tequipment.net/flir-mr160-thermal-imaging-moisture-meter/)
http://blog.ivytools.com/2015/06/12/hands-on-review-flir-mr160-moisture-meter-with-infrared/ (http://blog.ivytools.com/2015/06/12/hands-on-review-flir-mr160-moisture-meter-with-infrared/)
$599us
http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Systems-MR160-Imaging-Moisture/dp/B00Y2PTJK6 (http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Systems-MR160-Imaging-Moisture/dp/B00Y2PTJK6)
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(http://www.flirmedia.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/m/r/mr160_straight.jpg)
I noticed their MR160 moisture meter over the weekend.
http://www.flirmedia.com/MMC/THG/Brochures/TM_0019/TM_0019_US.pdf (http://www.flirmedia.com/MMC/THG/Brochures/TM_0019/TM_0019_US.pdf)
http://www.tequipment.net/flir-mr160-thermal-imaging-moisture-meter/ (http://www.tequipment.net/flir-mr160-thermal-imaging-moisture-meter/)
http://blog.ivytools.com/2015/06/12/hands-on-review-flir-mr160-moisture-meter-with-infrared/ (http://blog.ivytools.com/2015/06/12/hands-on-review-flir-mr160-moisture-meter-with-infrared/)
$599us
http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Systems-MR160-Imaging-Moisture/dp/B00Y2PTJK6 (http://www.amazon.com/FLIR-Systems-MR160-Imaging-Moisture/dp/B00Y2PTJK6)
But wait! They just announced the MR176 imaging moisture meter plus
Now has a temperature and relative humidity sensor on top along with more colour palletes and perhaps some other changes.
https://youtu.be/qtEDSV5t3z8 (https://youtu.be/qtEDSV5t3z8)
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FLIR is very proud of its new consumer grade imaging core. They have a whole new consumer division dedicated to the sale of LEPTON based products. It is still early days but FLIR certainly seem to be bolting a LEPTON core onto anything that might remotely benefit from such a facility. This should be seen as good news for us users. The wider deployment of thermal imaging may lower prices further. I would expect to see affordable thermal cameras for retro fitting onto cars soon. They may well become as common as car parking and lane monitoring cameras. 9fps may be a limitation but a thermal camera makes an excellent safety system for spotting people and animals at greater distances than the useful range of dipped beam headlights.
Interesting times for thermal camera fans :)
Fraser
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FLIR is very proud of its new consumer grade imaging core. They have a whole new consumer division dedicated to the sale of LEPTON based products. It is still early days but FLIR certainly seem to be bolting a LEPTON core onto anything that might remotely benefit from such a facility. This should be seen as good news for us users. The wider deployment of thermal imaging may lower prices further. I would expect to see affordable thermal cameras for retro fitting onto cars soon. They may well become as common as car parking and lane monitoring cameras. 9fps may be a limitation but a thermal camera makes an excellent safety system for spotting people and animals at greater distances than the useful range of dipped beam headlights.
Interesting times for thermal camera fans :)
Fraser
It's interesting to see that there's been no real competitors to the FLIR Lepton even though it was released 2 years ago. When the Seek thermal was first shown off, I expected it to be a bit of a demo product for a OEM micro thermal module (similarly to how the FLIR One was a bit of a demo product for the 80x60 lepton) - however it seems like this hasn't happened and Seek are still only doing standalone products. ULIS also has a new "low-end" 80x80 thermal imaging core, however it's not that small and doesn't some packaged in a "mobile phone camera" sized / socketed package with integrated lens (it still uses the same lenses as the higher res cores they ship, which aren't cheap).
However I would like to see a teardown of the Seek reveal - perhaps it is a test product for putting their current sensor/lens into a camera module type form factor?
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Good news on my replacement F1G2 Android........ It arrived this morning from Amazon.
Bill Terre (FLIR VP & GM) personally pursued this matter to ensure that I received my replacement camera. It was quite a 'journey' but we got there in the end.
I can also report that Bill is a true Gentleman and I have been suitably compensated for the complications that ensued after receiving a DoA camera.
Fraser
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Just saw this - clamp meter with built in thermal imaging
http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=71359 (http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=71359)
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Isn't that the same one posted at the top of this page?
McBryce.
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Isn't that the same one posted at the top of this page?
McBryce.
oops yes - didn't spot that
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Tequipment have the 174 listed.
FLIR CM174 Imaging 600A AC/DC Clamp Meter with IGM (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM174/Clamp-Meters/) 499
Not sure which of the following its adapted from.
FLIR CM72 600A AC Commercial Clamp Meter (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM72/Clamp-Meters/) 199
FLIR CM82 600A Power Clamp Meter with VFD Filter (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM82/Clamp-Meters/) 299
FLIR CM74 600A AC/DC Commercial Clamp Meter (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM74/Clamp-Meters/) 249
Mainly interested to see what the added cost of integrating the lepton into the unit. Wondering how many tools with IR before just getting a dedicated camera. If all an electrician needs is a clamp meter, then 2 in 1 might make sense.
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Just saw Flir's Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/FLIR (https://www.facebook.com/FLIR)
ATTENTION APP DEVS AND HACKERS! The FLIR ONE "Bring the Heat" App Challenge has gone global! Now you can enter online and compete for over $30,000 in prizes across six different app categories! Head here for details:
http://flir-online-hackathon-2546.devpost.com/ (http://flir-online-hackathon-2546.devpost.com/)
"The FLIR ONE thermal imaging camera for smart devices opens up a whole new world of iOS and Android app creation. It's time to reclaim revolution.
FLIR's revolutionary FLIR ONE (http://flir.com/flirone (http://flir.com/flirone)) brings thermal imaging to the mass consumer market for the very first time, and we're challenging developers around the globe to compete for prizes by creating the most innovative, fun and useful thermal apps imaginable! What would you do with your superpower?
Hackers, come make some app magic happen with us!
Requirements
Participants must do the following to participate in the Challenge:
Register for the Challenge on the designated Challenge Website and by clicking the “Register for this Hackathon” button. To complete registration, sign up to create a Devpost account, or log in with an existing Devpost account and complete and enter all required information.
Participate in the Challenge by creating a working, native smartphone application that integrates with the FLIR ONE via a FLIR ONE SDK available at http://www.flir.com/flirone/developer, (http://www.flir.com/flirone/developer,) and includes features having to do with thermal imaging.
Complete and enter all of the required fields on the “Enter a Submission” page of the Challenge Website (each a “Submission”) during the Challenge Submission Period, and follow the instructions to submit your Submission.
Create a video that includes footage that clearly explains and demonstrates your application’s features and functionality through a comprehensive demonstration.
Release a functional version of the application (if available) to the Poster for review using one of the methods described in the contest rules. This can be either a pre-production/beta release or a production release.
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Calling people using the SDK "Hackers" is a bit of a stretch.... :P
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I would have thought FLIR would wish to stay away from the word 'hacker' since the E4 upgrade :)
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They want to direct hackers' attention to pop culture and leave the industrial line of products alone.
:D
Surprised they did not say "arduino"
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Tequipment have the 174 listed.
FLIR CM174 Imaging 600A AC/DC Clamp Meter with IGM (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM174/Clamp-Meters/) 499
Not sure which of the following its adapted from.
FLIR CM72 600A AC Commercial Clamp Meter (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM72/Clamp-Meters/) 199
FLIR CM82 600A Power Clamp Meter with VFD Filter (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM82/Clamp-Meters/) 299
FLIR CM74 600A AC/DC Commercial Clamp Meter (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/CM74/Clamp-Meters/) 249
Mainly interested to see what the added cost of integrating the lepton into the unit. Wondering how many tools with IR before just getting a dedicated camera. If all an electrician needs is a clamp meter, then 2 in 1 might make sense.
Looks like it's adapted from the CM74, since that has identical specs to the CM174. The model numbers also make sense. So the difference in price there is $250 USD.
However do note that the CM174, even if you ignore the Thermal Imaging capability, adds a colour backlit LCD and built in laser pointer.
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FLIR is very proud of its new consumer grade imaging core. They have a whole new consumer division dedicated to the sale of LEPTON based products.
Hmm... from my point of view they should not be too proud. At least their planning is really poor - seems I selected the wrong nick for this forum: I ordered a Flir One Android in July from a German online store (voelkner.de) and my order is pushed and pushed and pushed. I even tried to order it in another store (reichelt.de) who promised to deliver the device in just two weeks. And guess what: That order was pushed and pushed and pushed.
If I wouldn't need an affordable cam for my house urgently I would have canceled both orders and wait for a device really available in stores. But wait... perhaps I will come back as SeekFan one day...
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From what I have experienced, ordering from FLIR Belgium direct was the best route for faster fulfilment through Amazon. There were some issues with supplying me with a replacement after the original was DoA. After much investigation the US Shipping Manager ordered the release of a camera via the Amazon fulfilment route as it was the quickest supply path available. I receive the camera the next day.
As I have previously advised, FLIR miscalculated the demand and they are embarrassed about it. They are trying to get stocks into stores but I suspect that there is a pecking order at work here. Amazon are their primary order fulfilment partner so orders to FLIR Belgium may have had priority treatment ? Another forum member ordered his F1G2 last Thursday and received it on the following Monday.
This could be the hot seller for Christmas as I can see it getting more popular as it becomes more visible on the Internet. Trades like Plumbers and Electricians may take an interest, as the financial investment is reasonable for occasional use. I have yet to fully test my F1G2 due to other commitments but it appears good value for money already and I originally paid £200 for it.
Fraser
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I have started a new thread entitled :
FLIR ONE Generation 2 Thermal Camera - The useful information thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-generation-2-thermal-camera-the-useful-information-thread/msg774119/#msg774119 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-generation-2-thermal-camera-the-useful-information-thread/msg774119/#msg774119)
I created such a thread for the E4 and it has proved to be a useful 'one stop' repository of information relating to that camera. I am hopeful that the F1G2 thread will be similarly useful.
I have yet to populate the thread with data as time is short today. I will add information over the next few days.
My E4 useful information thread may be found here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg332104/#msg332104 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg332104/#msg332104)
Some of the information held there is applicable to any thermal camera so may be of interest to F1G2 owners
Fraser
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Hi Fraser,
Thanks a lot for your message!
Another forum member ordered his F1G2 last Thursday and received it on the following Monday.
Where did he order it? Directly via Flir Belgium?
Thanks,
Dirk
Ps: The new thread will really help - thanks! Does it make sense to add a section "Shopping" which lists reliable sources for the device and addons like lenses?
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The post is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/actual-resolution-of-flir-one-v2/msg770621/#msg770621 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/actual-resolution-of-flir-one-v2/msg770621/#msg770621)
The member says he ordered from FLIR direct.
IMHO this is the best choice.
Fraser
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Seems thefamilyman is living in the US - it's different in Europe: Both websites for the UK and Germany state flir one Android is on pre-order. Which is even more embarrasing: We are waiting for several months to get the devices and they ship within a few days in the US. (And it's not possible to order on the US flir site for Europe since you can only enter adresses in the US.)
Since I am in the US in November I might try to get a device there if my order to Germany is delayed another time.......
Dirk
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Seems thefamilyman is living in the US - it's different in Europe: Both websites for the UK and Germany state flir one Android is on pre-order. Which is even more embarrasing: We are waiting for several months to get the devices and they ship within a few days in the US. (And it's not possible to order on the US flir site for Europe since you can only enter adresses in the US.)
Since I am in the US in November I might try to get a device there if my order to Germany is delayed another time.......
Dirk
New Zealand ^_^
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@Flironefan,
You can add any sub topic you like to the useful information thread. I put place markers in the thread ready for me to populate with information that I either already have, or will have very soon. A kind of reminder to me that I need to provide the information or harvest it from elsewhere.
With regard to add on like lenses, there is a sub section for accessories that I will populate with accessories thaI have, including micro USB extension leads, lenses and bracket ray. I will provide my sources for such there.
The situation on dealers who have stock of the camera is very unclear at the moment. A sub topic detailing dealers with stock could be started but from FLIR E4 experience, stock levels can be very volatile. People really need to use Google to track down dealers and then check stock. I believe FLIR lists authorised dealers for their products as well. The list of dealers holding stock could become quite a challenge to maintain so I will pass on 'owning' that data steam. You may create such in the thread though.
Fraser
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Voted yes for the sub-forum, took a bit to dig this thread up.
You guys see this yet? http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=914&view=67485 (http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=914&view=67485)
Choice snippets are this -- "The Lepton 3.5 release slated for production in the fall of 2015 will offer full radiometry"
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Choice snippets are this -- "The Lepton 3.5 release slated for production in the fall of 2015 will offer full radiometry"
this is a smoke bomb
every lepton is full radiometric (e.g. Flir One)
see datasheet in attachment
you need some calibration values for your sensor, then you can convert the RAW values to temperature
see my signature for more infos
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Nod, thank you, my friend. I suspect with the .5 being such an incremental change that we're not going to see an increase in resolution (I understand the Lepton 3 in the F1 G2 succumbs to the tiny lens issue). Very much enjoy reading your threads Tomas and *wave* from a fellow Linux user.
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Maybe by "full radiometry" they mean internal to the lepton itself? The Lepton3 has an external temp sensor for the shutter (at least in the Flir One v2), so the radiometric calibration I assume is happening external to the Lepton core.
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My Flir One Android arrived finally! Some crashes, frozen app - but nevertheless it's fun :-) And I have to read some more stuff about it, I did not yet find out how to analyse the pictures on my PC...
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I can report that whilst the FLIR ONE G2 APP loads onto a HUDL tablet, it will not run. This may be due to the HUDL's user of the Intel ATOM SoC.
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The app is working on my Motorola Moto X (2nd generation, Android 5.1) (as mentioned - few crashes, frozen app).
The app does not start on my HP 7 Plus G2 Tablet (Android 4.4.2, developer options activated) at all; camera facing in the wrong direction.
Should we perhaps start a new thread for the Android app, where we collect this?
Just registered my flir one and it was quite strange that they did not ask for the P/N... they could also gather which devices we users have to improve their testing. I would volunteer to test new versions of the app.
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Is anyone else fooling with the Lepton v3 module yet? I have already ripped apart my Flir One v2 to harvest the module. I have it on a breakout board interfaced to a raspberry pi. After some code mods I have it working but it acts a bit strangely compared to what I expected from reading the datasheet. Would be great to compare notes...
Obligatory 160x120 thermal selfie attached...
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Great :-+
Please post some more details about your breakout board and code mods.
I know your site ;)
http://hardtechlife.com/teardown-flir-one-for-android/ (http://hardtechlife.com/teardown-flir-one-for-android/)
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Some information on the lack of an MSX disablement option.
It is a fact that FLIR did not provide a MSX overlay disable option for one reason...... The MSX provided additional image detail and context that makes it compete well against the SEEK cameras higher resolution. FLIR do not want users or potential purchasers to see the raw 160x120 thermal image only. They believe buyers may buy the camera with the higher resolution instead. I raised this with FLIR and the decision did cause a lot of soul searching at the development meetings. In the consumer market that contains many non technical users, marketing is king. First impressions count...... Hence the nice F1G2 design and presentation box! FLIR know that MSX gets in the way of macro working and other technical uses, but the product is consumer centric and not presumer. Sadly a simple MSX disablement option for the user is not on the table for future software releases.
Pity 😢
Fraser
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That was the main reason I sold mine. Good thermal imaging can stand on its own without MSX overlay. The F1G2 is standing on "barely acceptable" there.
At some point I'd like to come back and make some standalone camera thing with the Lepton sensor. I bet you could probably get better image quality than is possilbe through the phone app.
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@Marshallh,
I have written comment on the current consumer grade thermal cameras in the SEEK camera thread. I agree with you. The technology has advanced quickly and I hope that performance will keep improving. BUT, I am aware that some companies may not wish the budget cameras to become too good as it may impact other tiers of their product ranges.
I remain impressed with the size of the LEPTON 3. It appears eminently suitable for incorporation in 3rd party equipment. Sadly the lens is a major limitation to performance.
For me 160x120 pixel arrays are the absolute minimum that I will use for my work. 320x240 pixel arrays is far more pleasant to use. I would love a 640x480 or even a 1024x768 pixel array camera but my wife would not like me selling the house to pay for it ;D
I still believe that consumers are getting a lot of bang for their bucks with both the FLIR ONE G2 and the SEEK. It is still early days for these products. Let us hope the advances in the technology continue at a pace.
Fraser
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It is a fact that FLIR did not provide a MSX overlay disable option for one reason...... The MSX provided additional image detail and context that makes it compete well against the SEEK cameras higher resolution. FLIR do not want users or potential purchasers to see the raw 160x120 thermal image only. They believe buyers may buy the camera with the higher resolution instead.
Doesn't the SDK provide access to the raw thermal image? It shouldn't be too complicated to build an app which has an option to select / deselect MSX overlay...?
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Instead of using patented "tricks" such as MSX, why doesn't Flir just release a imager with better specs? Surely they haven't been out-engineered by Seek on the race to the bottom?
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A fellow forum member has done a F1G2 vs SEEK thermal differential sensitivity test. I was surprised at his results.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/seek-vs-flir-one-g2-images/?topicseen (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/seek-vs-flir-one-g2-images/?topicseen)
Fraser
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Is anyone else fooling with the Lepton v3 module yet? I have already ripped apart my Flir One v2 to harvest the module. I have it on a breakout board interfaced to a raspberry pi. After some code mods I have it working but it acts a bit strangely compared to what I expected from reading the datasheet. Would be great to compare notes...
Obligatory 160x120 thermal selfie attached...
Hello Arsenix,
i also disassembled an Flir ONE (new Gen) and used this sensor.
But i use a standalone system with the AGC the Lepton provides with my own Color LUTs.
Attached are some Screenshots..
The Thermal Blob that the App creates are awful, but less noisier.
You can disable the MSX while you unplug the visible camera on the Board and there wouldnt be noise from the MSX camera.
But like i said, its just a better thermal blob what you will get.
The screenshots shows the Thermal image received from the lepton in AGC mode.
If you got some Questions about the code differences, just ask them.
Best regards
Pantheron
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Looks far betetr than the app blob! Nice job
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That's so odd... the raw data from the Lepton is higher quality than the output from the app? Is this on purpose, or is it just a side effect of excessive noise reduction / upscaling?
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That's so odd... the raw data from the Lepton is higher quality than the output from the app? Is this on purpose, or is it just a side effect of excessive noise reduction / upscaling?
From what I've seen of both the original lepton and the Flir One it looks like Flir are aiming for the "pretty image" rather than the more useful (to an engineer) raw data image. Lepton output looks pixelated and if processed (smoothed then sharpened with some clever msx integration) looks better to the untrained eye, even though it's no more accurate and probably less accurate than the raw data.
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Is it possible to write an Android app that pulls data from the F1G2, allowing us to do what we want with the Lepton data?
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Has anyone already tried to convert to USB to a lightning connector or vice-versa? Or does anyone have any good photos from the USB/lightning connector pcb?
Judging from the 4-port connection between connector module and camera pcb, I would guess that there is only minimal identification logic happening on the connector board (if any). So i wonder, how difficult it would be to make the camera work in both worlds with an adapter or some modifications.
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Sadly USB to lightning for use on an Apple device might be challenging. Apple authorised accessories are infamous for their ID Chips that are very complex and hard to crack. IIRC since OS7 the ID authentication process has become even more rigorous to detect fake ID chips.
Converting from a lightning based camera to a USB connectivity MAY be possible if the USB data is tapped before the Apple interface. Much would depend upon whether the firmware in both versions of the camera is the same.
I bought a Lightning Plug to mico USB socket adapter the other day. It onle enables use of a standard USB cable for charging and PC syncing though. FLIR ONE APP does not see the micro USB camera.
Sorry I cannot help more....... I had similar thoughts to you..... Using my USB F1G2 on my iPad via some cheap Chinese converter with spoofed ID, but Apple is a hard but to crack. If only I could get my paws on a FLIR One ID chip :)
Fraser
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Is it possible to write an Android app that pulls data from the F1G2, allowing us to do what we want with the Lepton data?
there is a working Flir One SDK where you can load "Thermal Linear Flux 14 Bit Image" at this point
thermalBitmap = renderedImage.getBitmap();
see the RenderedImage.java to grab the untouched 16 Bit 160x120 raw image "pixelData()" in LITTLE_ENDIAN byte order before it's level shifted to 8 Bit
public Bitmap getBitmap()
...
ByteBuffer.wrap(pixelData()).order(ByteOrder.LITTLE_ENDIAN).asShortBuffer().get(shortPixels);
...
int range = maxValue - minValue;
float scale = 255.0F / range;
...
short pixelValue = (short)(int)((shortPixels[p] - minValue) * scale);
more infos:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/msg799649/#msg799649 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown-and-hacks/msg799649/#msg799649)
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FLIR Black Friday sale - $50 off a TG165 and $1000 off a E60 (but a E40 is still cheaper ;))
(http://puu.sh/lvu38/93291d8e27.jpg)
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http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=72351 (http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=72351)
FLIR Vue 640x512 @ 30Hz is only $2695 now. That makes it by far the cheapest 640x480-class camera. The question is whether a fully functional Tau2 core can be extracted from these for 14bit digital output, as the Vue in it's current state only outputs analog video.
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http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=72351 (http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=72351)
FLIR Vue 640x512 @ 30Hz is only $2695 now. That makes it by far the cheapest 640x480-class camera. The question is whether a fully functional Tau2 core can be extracted from these for 14bit digital output, as the Vue in it's current state only outputs analog video.
If the Exx series is any indication, FLIR wants to make as few different imagers as possible, and instead restrict them with software or features. If there's not an "analog only" Tau2, I'd bet money (but not $2695) that it's the full-featured imager.
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The Tau series has been around a few years now. In its most basic configuration the camera is Digital only with a 14bit data interface. In order to use it with other communications or video protocols additional interfaces have to be added to to the TAU2. The TAU core is highly configurable in firmware and as such it can be locked down by FLIR to what ever configuration they desire. If they want to limit its abilities or its interface options, they easily can.
The FLIR core website provides plenty of data on teh connectivity and configuration. There is even free firmware configuration software for download. Such configuration can be disabled by FLIR though.
http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=54717 (http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=54717)
Composite video/USB interface module
http://www.flirshop.com/product/tau-vpc-module/Tau640-Accessories (http://www.flirshop.com/product/tau-vpc-module/Tau640-Accessories)
I have met the TAU2 in professional CCTV cameras as it is a high performance core at a commercially reasonable price. Those TAU cameras were locked down to composite video only and regrettably I had no way to test the 14bit interface functionality. Sorry I can't offer more help on this.
Fraser
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Guys, I have a Problem with my flir one :-\
I bought this baby yesterday, charched it and it worked well! but today as i unplugged it from the power brik it wont turn on :-//
does anybody knows if there is a "lock"-mode on this device? :(
edit: when I plug it on the power brick, the green indicator-light stays dark :(
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My first F1G2 was dead on arrival. There is no lock on the unit.
Sounds like yours is also a DoA. Return to suppliers or a replacement.
Fraser
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Two new Lepton products at CES 2016.
The FLIR Scout TK (RRP $599 USD): http://www.flir.com/hunting-outdoor/display/?id=72845 (http://www.flir.com/hunting-outdoor/display/?id=72845)
It's a 160x120 thermal handheld monocular. Lepton with narrow ( 20° × 16° ) field of view. Built in image and video capture.
Images don't seem super impressive, but they look like they're using the full 160x120 sensor (unlike the FLIR One G2).
(http://www.flir.com/uploadedImages/Hunting-Outdoor/Products/Scout-TK/cars-on-road.jpg)
(http://www.flir.com/uploadedImages/Hunting-Outdoor/Products/Scout-TK/beach-dog-walk.jpg)
The FLIR TG130 is like a TG165 but uses the lepton for temp measurement instead of the seperate IR pyrometer. Resolution of this isn't disclosed, but I would assume it's 80x60 and cheaper than the TG165. Only has 1 button: the power button. Cannot save images.
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The FLIR TG130 is like a TG165 but uses the lepton for temp measurement instead of the seperate IR pyrometer. Resolution of this isn't disclosed, but I would assume it's 80x60 and cheaper than the TG165. Only has 1 button: the power button. Cannot save images.
Yep, $249. At that price, I'm really not complaining about missing features. It does have a second button, the trigger, which freezes the image on screen. Heh, looks like they had to find some function for the button, and that's the best they could come up with :)
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Good to see FLIR producing more new models, and the monocular isn't too badly priced when compared to previous units of the type.
The Lepton 3 is a good core so hopefully we will see more innovative products based on its capabilities in the future. Will there be a Lepton 4 any time soon I wonder ?
I have already seen a third party thermal headset that provides a thermal image to the wearer via a HUD on a prism. It was truly tiny, thanks to the Lepton 3. There are rumours that this will be the year of VR headsets.... Such image presentation technology married to a thermal camera would be very powerful. Applications for such technology are many, including Search And Rescue operations, provided that they do not exceed its temp specs. And do not read too much into the max temp spec. It can be improved upon if the application requires such.
Fraser
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Looks like lead time on Amazon is still 1-3 months. At this rate I will hold out for G3.
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F1G2 Android still OOS on Amazon. Any updates from the hacking scene?
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I just fixed a couple bugs in my FLIR FFF Viewer software. It's now up to version 1.3. One bug originally allowed you, when saving the raw 16bit-per-pixel thermal image to TIF or PNG image, to accidentally save the wrong file name if you had selected (but not loaded) a different file from the file selection list than the one you had loaded, before clicking the Save Raw Image button. The other bug would have made it so that a file located directly in the root directory C:\ would not have successfully loaded.
Download the package in ZIP file format from http://www.mediafire.com/file/6vg1le6t9ppeqr1 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/6vg1le6t9ppeqr1)
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Why do you not open a new post with a good subject and post some screenshots from your software?
Nobody find your hard work, if you post in another threads.
Otherwise you opened for some minor questions new topics. A oddly strategy ;)
Well since I finished my program before I finished the component, I'm releasing the program now. The standalone program has all the features that the component will have, except that it's compiled right into the exe file, instead of the program having the separate component as an added dependency. My next plan is to create the component, which will be an ActiveX DLL file. It should be a fairly simple process of migrating this code to a new VB6 project (the one for generating this component) now that I have all the code I want laid out in nice *.bas VB6 module files. I hope to complete the component, a single ActiveX DLL file, some time tomorrow, so you guys will be able to easily implement this functionality in your own programs, without having a bunch of module files that you would need to add to each project to get the same functionality.
Please read the readme file in the zip file, so you will know how to get the program setup to run. It's a very simple program to use. It's very self explanatory how to use each of the functions. So I haven't put a help file in the zip file.
The program, which is called FLIR FFF Viewer, is able to load all of the forms in which FLIR FFF files can exist, including ones with PNG compressed raw data, and the ones in which the FFF file is not a standalone file, but rather is embedded in a JPG file. Once loaded, there are a number of options for how to display it. It offers the ability to save the image as it is currently displayed to a BMP file. It also offers the ability to take the raw 16bits-per-pixel thermal image and save it to either an uncompressed TIF file or a losslessly compressed PNG file. Unlike with FLIR's implementation, which saves the 16bit raw data in little-endian byte order for PNG files (even though multibyte image data in PNG files is supposed to be big-endian), my implementation of 16bits PNG saving actually correctly swaps the bytes to save big-endian image data in the PNG file.
FFF files can be in one of 4 formats (all 4 of which my program will handle). FLIR calls these:
FFF
FFF+PNG
JPEG+FFF
JPEG+PNG
FFF and FFF+PNG are standalone *.FFF files. FFF stores the 16bit image data uncompressed (either in little-endian or big-endian byte order), while FFF+PNG stores the data as a losslessly compressed PNG file embedded within the FFF file (though the uncompressed image data that is input to the compressor is in the wrong byte order for PNG, thus it is technically an invalid PNG file).
JPEG+FFF and JPEG+PNG are *.JPG files with embedded *.FFF files. For the JPEG+FFF format, the embedded *.FFF file is in the pure FFF format. For the JPEG+PNG format, the embedded *.FFF file is in the FFF+PNG format.
For JPEG+FFF and JPEG+PNG, the embedded FFF file is extracted from the JPEG container prior to further processing. With the extracted (or standalone) FFF file, if it is of the FFF format, my program will directly extract the raw data. If it is in little-endian byte order this pixel array is passed directly to the rest of the program. If it is in big-endian byte order the bytes are swapped to little-endian (as needed in Windows software) before it is passed to the rest of the program. If the extracted (or standalone) FFF file is of the FFF+PNG format, my program uses ZLib (in the form of zlibwapi.dll, the stdcall version of the DLL file) to decompress the image data in the PNG file, and then passes the decompressed pixel array to the rest of my program. This is the required core functionality of any program that is to handle FLIR radiometric images.
All this functionality will also be wrapped into my ActiveX DLL component when I finish making it, allowing others to write their own programs for processing FLIR radiometric images.
Here's the download link for my program (not the DLL component). And yes, it does have all the source code.
Version 1.0 https://www.mediafire.com/?9n5m7hstbats5n9 (https://www.mediafire.com/?9n5m7hstbats5n9)
Version 1.1 https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco (https://www.mediafire.com/?o5wjeonnc390jco)
Version 1.2 https://www.mediafire.com/?zf2imwze56kqvc4 (https://www.mediafire.com/?zf2imwze56kqvc4)
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Aiming for $250, surprising it has an internal battery - maybe teh MSX stuff pulls too much to run on power from the phone
Not all phones can support 5V 500mA output on the USB socket. There is infact quite a wide range between manufactures. So an internal battery means the product works even on phones that can only source 100mA or less
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New FLIR Vue Pro R: http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=75250 (http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=75250)
Basically a FLIR Vue Pro with radiometric recording, which in itself was a FLIR Vue with a digital recorder attached, which in itself was a slightly modified FLIR Tau 2 core.
This does NOT record radiometric video (ie. .seq files), instead it can record MPEG4 colour video and take radiometric jpegs at set intervals.
With a optional addon the camera gains digital (HDMI) output and input voltage range expansion to 5 VDC – 28 VDC.
Measurement accuracy is pretty bad at +/-5°C or 5% of reading
Pricing from OEMCameras: 640x480 7.5Hz: $4499.00, 30Hz: $4699.00. 320x240 7.5Hz: $2999.00, 60Hz: $3199.00
Also, another interesting Lepton product, the "TrafiOne", which is a traffic sensor: http://www.flir.com/TrafiOne/ (http://www.flir.com/TrafiOne/)
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New FLIR Vue Pro R: http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=75250 (http://www.flir.com/suas/content/?id=75250)
Basically a FLIR Vue Pro with radiometric recording, which in itself was a FLIR Vue with a digital recorder attached, which in itself was a slightly modified FLIR Tau 2 core.
This does NOT record radiometric video (ie. .seq files), instead it can record MPEG4 colour video and take radiometric jpegs at set intervals.
With a optional addon the camera gains digital (HDMI) output and input voltage range expansion to 5 VDC – 28 VDC.
Measurement accuracy is pretty bad at +/-5°C or 5% of reading
Pricing from OEMCameras: 640x480 7.5Hz: $4499.00, 30Hz: $4699.00. 320x240 7.5Hz: $2999.00, 60Hz: $3199.00
Also, another interesting Lepton product, the "TrafiOne", which is a traffic sensor: http://www.flir.com/TrafiOne/ (http://www.flir.com/TrafiOne/)
Which FLIR devices support SEQ recording directly
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Which FLIR devices support SEQ recording directly
The E40 and above all support streaming radiometric data over USB to FLIR Tools which records them to SEQ.
As for in camera recording it's supported in their science versions of the T series (ie. T430sc, T450sc, T650sc and T630sc) and the T1020.
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That Flir Vue is for finding secret grow ops? Why would I want to do aerial views? Unless search and rescue.
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That Flir Vue is for finding secret grow ops? Why would I want to do aerial views? Unless search and rescue.
Roof & solar panel inspection, Agriculture
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Thermal camera equipped drones are being used in the UK to target areas of farmers crops that are affected by blight. Limited treatment to only areas of infection reduce chemical costs and make the process more environmentally friendly. A good use of the technology and a growing industry for companies offering the equipment or service.
Fraser
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to target areas of farmers crops that are affected by blight.
To verify insurance/subsidy claims for crops or livestock. From back-in-the-day a friend's dad was working for the E-U basically identifying whether sheep claiming some E-U subsidy were real or cardboard cutouts positioned on the hillside and moved around once a day.
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It looks like TPL has a newer weapon sight that uses the 30Hz version of the 80x60 Lepton. I wish the 30Hz version was more accessible.
Odd that they haven't upgraded to the newer version (160x120?) yet.
http://tplogic.com/thermal-solutions/t10/t12/ (http://tplogic.com/thermal-solutions/t10/t12/)
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In Germany Flir sells the webcam "Flir A8X" with a Lepton 80x60 and VGA real camera (=> Flir one Gen 1) for 1.000 EUR (amazon.com 1.000 USD) :palm:
http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/Marine/Products/Thermal-Monitoring/FLIR_AX8/FLIR_AX8_Brochure.pdf (http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/Marine/Products/Thermal-Monitoring/FLIR_AX8/FLIR_AX8_Brochure.pdf)
our F1 G2 raspberry hack give us 160x120 for 300 USD ;)
I can't confirm the temperature gradient (rainbow).
My F1G2 runs several days by continuous battery charging at 20°C room temperature without problems, but I noticed a really battery heating like a fast charging smartphone.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/question-about-flir-one-for-android/?action=dlattach;attach=194187;image)
I'm worried about the duration of the shutter mechanism (640 movements daily)
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Hello guys,
I have a Flir Scout TK with a Lepton 160 x 120
I have tried to get a connection to the Flir Scout TK with Flir Tools but no chance.
I asked today the Flir Support which Flir Software is compatible with The Flir Scout TK
and the answer from Flir Support was "No PC software is compatible with the Flir Scout TK Cam".
I also tried to get a connection with "FlirInstallNet.exe" but without success !
Has anyone here experience with the Flir Scout TK Cam ?
Kind regards
bombar69
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Just noticed the TG130 on ebay before. rrp looks to be $199 US which is pretty good. How much was the lepton on its own?
Flir Website (http://www.flir.com/instruments/tg130/)
(http://www.flir.com/uploadedImages/Store/Products/Instruments/TG13x/FLIR-TG130-Whatsinbox.png)
(http://www.flir.com/uploadedImages/Instruments/Products/Test-and-Measurement/TG130/TG130-prodImage.jpg)
Tequipment has a comparison table between the TG165 & TG130.
Tequipment (http://www.tequipment.net/flir/flir-tg165-vs-flir-tg130/)
| TG165 | TG130 |
| Range | -25 to 380°C | –10 to +150°C |
| Price | $199 | $349.99 |
| Sensor | 80x60 | 80x60 |
| Min Focus | 4" | 10" |
10cm focus sounds like it might suit our PCB hot spotting.
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The TG130 is designed to provide an alternative to simple visual thermometers like the Fluke VT02 and VT04.
It's a nice simple camera but a pity FLIR used the LEPTON 2 rather than the LEPTON 3. I have said as much to Bill Terre VP FLIR.
Fraser
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Talk about building it down to a price though!
Digikey still lists a Lepton 2 at $175USD in single units + shipping/tax.
For $25 more you get the same sensor in a full retail turn key product with warranty etc...
It seems fairly basic feature wise but I think it's not a bad starting product.
Can't wait for a tear-down and see if FLIR left any hack-ability on the table!
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It is impressive pricing for such a complete unit. The cost of the LEPTON 2 sensor has always surprised me. No idea why FLIR has set the price so high.
With regard to 'hackability', sadly this camera will always be limited by its LEPTON 2 core resolution. FLIR do not need to hobble the resolution in software as that is a fixed hardware limitation. Could some extra features for measurement and modes be unlocked ? maybe, if the firmware was designed to be used in more capable units and just configured to 'basic' mode for this product. Without delving into the firmware we cannot know.
Having a thermal imaging capability, in only 80 x 60 pixels, in a small handheld unit is still a potentially very useful tool for applications that do not need pin sharp imaging. PCB work might be a little challenging for it but if it has a close focus capability, or a close up lens is used, it may sufice for basic pcb checks.
Fraser
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It also looks like it has a window covering the sensor. I would assume such windows are not cheap and likely the bulk of the cost next to the sensor itself. Making it a good source of components for other projects.
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I originally thought the window on the F1G2 would be Chalcogenide glass but from what I have been told it is more likely thin silicon, as used in for the LEPTON lens. Such a window would be cheap to produce but it is a less than ideal material for LWIR. On the F1G2 the window is used to protect the delicate FFC shutter mechanism from dirt contamination, and for cosmetic reasons. It is not essential though.
Fraser
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I found the MSX Technology too good, allowing you to see detail in the thermal image that other cameras simply can't touch.
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FLIR Boson
http://www.flir.com/cores/content/?id=74595 (http://www.flir.com/cores/content/?id=74595)
It's unreleased yet, but it looks very similar to Quark.
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Hello.
A few weeks ago I bought Flir Scout TK.
The camera is lightweight, small, and are probably all its advantages.
Something you can see, but only large objects.
Image has a lot of noise.
Does anyone have any experience with Scout TK?
Regards.
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The TK is an 'entry level' LEPTON core based spotting scope. Much cheaper than the TAU core based spotting scopes from FLIR.
Sadly that means that it's imaging performance is limited.
For its intended market it is adequate however.
Fraser
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No futore and no hope for it?
It's realy sad. ;)
Thank you.
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From what distance made photo? You want to see far or to see in more detail? In any case, you need to change the lens. I've been doing for the lepton optional lenses. I do not have such an imager, and can not say any suitable size. What would fit into the case.
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Further to my last brief comment.
The TK spotting scope was intended to provide people with basic needs with a means of viewing scenes in the thermal domain, but at the same time FLIR do not want it to impinge upon the higher performance spotting scopes that they sell. Prior to the TK, the choice for. Mariners and hikers was limited to the FLIR units costing several thousand Dollars. Whilst Mariners are used to paying high prices for equipment, Hikers and wildlife spotters are not so receptive to such. Hence the creation of the TK. FLIR also make budget friendly fire fighting cameras. This is all about FLIR filling gaps in the Market but sadly performance will be lower than the more expensive models. I think the view, "better than nothing" is applicable in many cases.
The LEPTON is a neat little core that achieves much in a really tiny format. It is a compromise solution however. I am hopeful that we will see the LEPTON 3 160x120 pixel core used in more products.
Fraser
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FLIR''s press release on the TK hints at its more limited imaging abilities....
"The FLIR Scout TK thermal vision monocular, the smallest and lightest camera in the FLIR Scout series, is developed specifically for outdoor enthusiasts. Pocket-sized and designed for one-handed use, the Scout TK allows consumers to see in total darkness and become better aware of their surroundings. With more than five hours of battery life, the Scout TK detects body heat of people and animals, or helps identify key landmarks. Whether camping, fishing, or hiking, the rugged Scout TK provides outdoor enthusiasts with the power to fully explore and visualize their surroundings regardless of the environmental conditions."
The specs state that the TK can reveal a man at 100 Yards with its 20 Degree FOV lens. That alone hints that the TK is somewhat limited.
http://www.flir.com/hunting-outdoor/scouttk/ (http://www.flir.com/hunting-outdoor/scouttk/)
Fraser
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I fully agree with Fraser. If they put the optics 12 degrees will be competition the 24 degree model matrix 240x180.
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From what distance ...
The picture was taken from a distance of 30m.
Unfortunately in TK there is no pallete "Rainbow" - it's my favorite.
(Can we install it?)
I bought it for trips to the forest. I like to watch the small animals, birds.
(I'm not a hunter)
TK is a handy, small but the picture is worse than Flir i3 improved from 60x60 to 100x100 pix.
If it were, you can inexpensively replace the detector for a better and add a rainbow palette that would be great.
If no...what a pity. :-//
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The Tau series has been around a few years now. In its most basic configuration the camera is Digital only with a 14bit data interface. In order to use it with other communications or video protocols additional interfaces have to be added to to the TAU2. The TAU core is highly configurable in firmware and as such it can be locked down by FLIR to what ever configuration they desire. If they want to limit its abilities or its interface options, they easily can.
The FLIR core website provides plenty of data on teh connectivity and configuration. There is even free firmware configuration software for download. Such configuration can be disabled by FLIR though.
http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=54717 (http://www.flir.com/cores/display/?id=54717)
Composite video/USB interface module
http://www.flirshop.com/product/tau-vpc-module/Tau640-Accessories (http://www.flirshop.com/product/tau-vpc-module/Tau640-Accessories)
I have met the TAU2 in professional CCTV cameras as it is a high performance core at a commercially reasonable price. Those TAU cameras were locked down to composite video only and regrettably I had no way to test the 14bit interface functionality. Sorry I can't offer more help on this.
Fraser
Is there a way to hack the firmware settings in a Tau2, just like there is with the E4? Can't you just undo FLIR's "lock down" of the camera, by uploading a new configuration file to it, via USB?
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Simple and short answer..... NO.
The Tau is very different to the Ex series
Fraser
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New Exx cameras just announced. Full press release below:
FLIR Launches New Generation of Advanced Thermal Imaging Cameras for Electro-Mechanical, Plant and Building Professionals
Completely Redesigned Exx-Series Offers Intelligent Interchangeable Lenses, Laser-Assisted Autofocus, Higher Resolutions, and a Larger, Brighter Touchscreen
WILSONVILLE, OR -- (Marketwired) -- 02/16/17 -- FLIR Systems, Inc. (NASDAQ: FLIR) announced today three new Exx-Series advanced thermal imaging cameras for electrical, mechanical, and building applications: the FLIR E75, E85, and E95. The redesigned, Wi-Fi-enabled Exx-Series features intelligent interchangeable lenses, laser-assisted autofocus modes and area measurement functionality, improvements to FLIR's patented MSX® imaging technology, and a larger, more vibrant 4-inch touchscreen. These distinctive features, combined with increased sensitivity and increased native resolution, will help professionals identify hot spots or building deficiencies before potential problems become expensive repairs.
In redesigning the Exx-Series, FLIR developed a new range of compact intelligent, interchangeable lenses that the camera automatically recognizes and calibrates, eliminating the need for manual calibration. The Exx-Series now also features laser distance measurement that assures precise autofocus to improve temperature measurement accuracy, and specifically for the FLIR E85 and E95 models, provides the data for on-screen area measurement in square feet or meters. In addition, the FLIR E85 and E95 models offer increased thermal detector resolutions with up to 464×348 (161,472 pixels), and measure temperatures up to 1,500 degrees Celsius.
In conjunction with FLIR Tools™, the FLIR E75, E85, and E95 are the first Exx cameras to offer UltraMax®, FLIR's embedded, super-resolution process that improves effective resolution by four times -- up to 645,888 pixels -- and thermal sensitivity by up to 50 percent. All models also feature significant improvement to FLIR's MSX technology, which now utilizes a 5-megapixel visual camera for improved image clarity and readability. These improvements, combined with a display that is 33 percent brighter and 30 percent larger than previous Exx models, yield more vibrant and detailed thermal imagery.
The Exx-Series cameras also feature a rugged, water-resistant design and scratch-resistant Dragontrail™ cover glass over an optically-bonded, projected capacitive (PCAP) touchscreen. A simplified user interface delivers faster, more intuitive operation, and coupled with enhanced Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and Meterlink® connectivity, archiving and report generation has never been easier.
"Redesigned from the handle up, the new series of Exx cameras is a significant achievement in terms of advanced functionality, performance, and ease of use in thermal cameras for electro-mechanical, plant, and building inspections," says Andy Teich, President and CEO at FLIR. "With an ever-broadening base of users who demand thermal cameras that are compact, capable and easy to use, the advanced Exx cameras check every box."
The FLIR E75, E85, and E95 cameras will be available for sale in March through established FLIR distribution partners and the FLIR.com store. For more information, visit www.flir.com/exx-series (http://www.flir.com/exx-series).
No pics yet!
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First pics :P
(http://media.marketwire.com/attachments/201702/72653_eXX-group-content.jpg)
(http://lgstatic.transcat.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/l/flir-e95-industrial-1000x1000_3.jpg)
PDF flyer:
http://www.datatec.de/shop/artikelpdf/785020301_d.pdf (http://www.datatec.de/shop/artikelpdf/785020301_d.pdf)
more:
http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/E95/ (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIR/E95/)
http://www.transcat.com/flir-e95-advanced-thermal-camera (http://www.transcat.com/flir-e95-advanced-thermal-camera)
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And some videos which are note ready jet?
https://www.youtube.com/user/BatterFly2002/videos?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=0 (https://www.youtube.com/user/BatterFly2002/videos?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=0)
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the resolution is mystic ;)
E75: 320 x 240 (76,800 pixels)
E85: 384 x 288 (110,592 pixels)
E95: 464 x 348 (161,472 pixels)
320x1,20 =384
320x1,45 =464
384 x 288 is a "common" microbolometer size, but what is the real sensor resolution for this series?
480x360 or 640x480 :-DD
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Resolution is suspiciously unusual. Looks like they have a 640x480 pixel FPA in that camera. Software hobbling at work again.
Watch out for the marketing speak as well. Super resolution can work but it definitely does not work as well as a camera with the true physical resolution that Super resoluton tries to emulate.
FLIR have also released some new maritime cameras, the M100 and M200. The M100 has manual tile only and the M200 has remote pan tilt. Flipping marketing people at work again. Maritime cameras normally need Pan and tilrwithnremote control dpso the M100 seems a little flawed.
The M100 and M200 are using the Boson core.
http://www.flir.com/cores/content/?id=74595&pi_ad_id=138570921491&gclid=Cj0KEQiAuJXFBRDirIGnpZLE-N4BEiQAqV0KGmy3PkpAIJXXg8yKrGbRmcb5kkqBdWwT_wyGoVH7hX8aAs9H8P8HAQ (http://www.flir.com/cores/content/?id=74595&pi_ad_id=138570921491&gclid=Cj0KEQiAuJXFBRDirIGnpZLE-N4BEiQAqV0KGmy3PkpAIJXXg8yKrGbRmcb5kkqBdWwT_wyGoVH7hX8aAs9H8P8HAQ)
Fraser
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M100 and M200 camera details
http://www.flir.com/home/news/details/?ID=82804 (http://www.flir.com/home/news/details/?ID=82804)
Fraser
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the resolution is mystic ;)
E75: 320 x 240 (76,800 pixels)
E85: 384 x 288 (110,592 pixels)
E95: 464 x 348 (161,472 pixels)
320x1,20 =384
320x1,45 =464
384 x 288 is a "common" microbolometer size, but what is the real sensor resolution for this series?
480x360 or 640x480 :-DD
I believe the FLIR T-Series 480x360 cameras use 640x480 sensors, so unless they developed a new 480x360 sensor then they're probably using a 640x480 sensor.
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the resolution is mystic ;)
E75: 320 x 240 (76,800 pixels)
E85: 384 x 288 (110,592 pixels)
E95: 464 x 348 (161,472 pixels)
320x1,20 =384
320x1,45 =464
384 x 288 is a "common" microbolometer size, but what is the real sensor resolution for this series?
480x360 or 640x480 :-DD
I wonder how hackable they are. Anyone going to be the guinea pig and buy one?
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I guess probability of Flir sending one unit to Mike is not really a huge one... ;D
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I believe the FLIR T-Series 480x360 cameras use 640x480 sensors, so unless they developed a new 480x360 sensor then they're probably using a 640x480 sensor.
They do indeed use the 640x480 detector and yes they are hackable to the full res :D
They are based on new Linux OS and apparently the bits we'd want to hack are heavily encrypted!
Pricing will be around £6K for E75 with either a 42° or 24° lens and around £8K for the E95
FLIR have dropped the price of the T640 by £7K, which hints at a new model with a 640x480 detector. The T600 and T620 are also "By request" now, which further supports this.
Expect to see a number of the older E30-E60 cameras hit the used market at a good price!
I'm going to see if I can order one of these in for work to retire some of the older cameras we still use.
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http://www.datatec.de/Flir-Waermebildkamera-E95-785020301.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Flir-Waermebildkamera-E95-785020301.htm)
Here is E95 listed at 10k€ + VAT, that is approx 12,000€ for regular mortals. :o
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http://www.datatec.de/Flir-Waermebildkamera-E95-785020301.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Flir-Waermebildkamera-E95-785020301.htm)
Here is E95 listed at 10k€ + VAT, that is approx 12,000€ for regular mortals. :o
Yeah that looks right, considering the FX rate.
Availability is 1st March.
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The lens on the E95 looks somewhat small in diameter to my eyes. It makes me wonder whether the Boson640 core is in the new model.
Call me old fashioned, but I like to see a nice large diameter lens on a camera ;D
Fraser
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Fraser,
Boson would be a 12u, the datasheet most closely lines up with Tau2 (industrial spec) with a 17u 640x510 in it as the 'sensitivity' is the least likely number to be adjusted by marketing.
Based on a 42° FoV and using the actual sensor pixel count of 640 horizontally gives a lens focal length of 15mm. As you'd rarely go over f/1 it should only be 15mm diameter.
If the resolution uses less of the sensor then focal length reduces as does the front element size for an f/1.
Datasheet link says the 42° lens is a 10mm FL so f/1 is 10mm diameter anyway and says that the lens is not filling the sensor. The 464 wide is probably 'real' pixels as that adds up to 10mm F/L. Cheaper lens not filling the sensor.
Back to Frasers' point, this is the same outcome as a 640 sensor at 12u.
The lower apertures make the front element a little smaller and so worse sensitivity will result. The 30mK is up to low 40's to 50mK just because of the lens apertures.
Bill
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No one mentioned the official new Exx webpage?
http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=82350 (http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=82350)
I just post it here for reference.
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Someone on the InterNACHI forums claims to have inside information that FLIR is dropping the prices of the older models: https://nachi.org/forum/f58/flir-updating-their-camera-lines-and-lowing-prices-119616
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I've got the new 2017 price list in front of me (second revision this year already!): They dropped the price of the T640 by £7K and my FLIR contact confirmed that there are new cameras still to come...
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This demonstrates the profit margins involved with FLIR cameras these days. Try getting £7K off of a new car.... the salesman would likely laugh you out of the showroom :) I am not knocking FLIR though. They are a specialist OEM and the industrial market will pay the prices being asked.
Fraser
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Received the new FLIR E95 camera a few days ago. Here are some early images. Let me know if you want to see something in particular and I will do my best, haha.
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I guess probability of Flir sending one unit to Mike is not really a huge one... ;D
Seems unlikely
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Received the new FLIR E95 camera a few days ago. Here are some early images. Let me know if you want to see something in particular and I will do my best, haha.
Very nice. Not sure if images are 10k$ nice. :P
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Received the new FLIR E95 camera a few days ago. Here are some early images. Let me know if you want to see something in particular and I will do my best, haha.
That last image looks awesome! Love the detail from the radiator. I notice the resolution is 640x480 - can anyone explain why this is?
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Received the new FLIR E95 camera a few days ago. Here are some early images. Let me know if you want to see something in particular and I will do my best, haha.
That last image looks awesome! Love the detail from the radiator. I notice the resolution is 640x480 - can anyone explain why this is?
MSX probably
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Chanc3,
FLIR upscale the image on their SCOUT II scope series from 320x240 to 640x480. I suspect they do the same on the new cameras.
FLIR are very much about making the pictures 'appear' better than the opposition. Hence the use of MSX to provide fine details.
Fraser
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Ah, I didn't think that image was using MSX, but now that I look at it closer, you could be correct! Nice specc'd cameras - would be keen to know how accurate the measurement function is.
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Ah, I didn't think that image was using MSX, but now that I look at it closer, you could be correct! Nice specc'd cameras - would be keen to know how accurate the measurement function is.
I thought that was the thermal details too, and got amazed... So that's MSXed picture |O
I guess that level of detail may only archived by cooled MWIR cameras.
How's the new Exx photo without MSX look like? Anyone have samples?
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Hey guys, those four E95 pics are WITHOUT the MSX feature. While MSX is great in certain situations, I mostly prefer to leave it off at higher resolutions.
For comparison sake, here is the radiator pic with MSX enabled. Because of the high level of detail and a slight parallax issue, it looks a little fuzzier to my eye.
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Hey guys, those four E95 pics are WITHOUT the MSX feature. While MSX is great in certain situations, I mostly prefer to leave it off at higher resolutions.
For comparison sake, here is the radiator pic with MSX enabled. Because of the high level of detail and a slight parallax issue, it looks a little fuzzier to my eye.
That's really good to know, thanks.
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Received the new FLIR E95 camera a few days ago. Here are some early images. Let me know if you want to see something in particular and I will do my best, haha.
Have you tried hacking it? :D
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Received the new FLIR E95 camera a few days ago. Here are some early images. Let me know if you want to see something in particular and I will do my best, haha.
Wow - that thing does seem to get a good bit of detail out of the image!
You should make a separate post for it and put some more images up.
Played around a bit with one of your images for fun.
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Announcement coming on the 6th April - wonder what it could be?!
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Watch this space, new range announced to fill a gap currently in FLIRs line-up. Can't say anymore but should be something public towards the end of this month.
Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk
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Interesting :)
I was aware that they were releasing a new 'dual tech' visible/thermal security camera with 640x480 thermal resolution, plus they are about to release rage LEPTON 3 to OEM's for integration into 3rd party products.
A new range though ....... Hmmmmm I wonder which area of the market FLIR is going to target with that :)
Fraser
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This slipped through under the radar! Looks to be quite useful if you don't already have an E4 hacked to E8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLSN--l826Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLSN--l826Y)
FLIR ETS320
(http://www.azom.com/images/equipments/EquipmentImage_4601.jpg)
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It is about time that we saw a thermal microscope ! They have been used in industry for many years. Maybe a bit specialist though ? As a dedicated tool it will not gave the wide appeal of a handheld thermal camera so is likely aimed at the production and research markets ?
Watching ants and insects through a thermal microscope can be fascinating. You can see their tiny muscles creating heat as they work. Bee's warming up their wing muscles are a great subject for such a microscope as well.
Fraser
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I just took a look at the specs...... what a disappointment !
45 Degree FOV with fixed focus of 70mm +-10mm !
Sadly this is not a thermal microscope as I mistakenly thought. Just a close up camera with fixed 70mm operating distance. Unimpressed.......it could easily have been made so much more versatile. At the very least it could have been offered with interchangeable lenses and a true microscope X15 lens for really small regions of interest.
As Chanc3 stated, an E4 can likely achieve the same with a ZnSe close up lense attached. With those you have a choice of 25mm, 50mm, 63mm and 100mm FL. Very shallow DOF though. Alternatively, adjustment of the E4 lens focus enables pretty good close up capabilities.
Fraser
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and I laughed a bit when the designer said "The Transistor was running very hot at 200c - and I could only spot it with the ETS320"...... If it really was 200c I guess it was trying to un-solder itself... and when did you stop finger testing... :) Yes you get burned from time to time - but that is kind of first test I do. But I might just be a bit silly.
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and I laughed a bit when the designer said "The Transistor was running very hot at 200c - and I could only spot it with the ETS320"...... If it really was 200c I guess it was trying to un-solder itself... and when did you stop finger testing... :) Yes you get burned from time to time - but that is kind of first test I do. But I might just be a bit silly.
The the hottest transistors on most of my designs have 150-200 volts on them, so I'm not going to do the finger test! It's one of the main reasons I like thermal imaging.
John
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ETS320 is priced at approx $2500
https://www.testequity.com/products/33467/ (https://www.testequity.com/products/33467/)
Fraser
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FLIR just announced the T500 series: http://flir.com/t500Series (http://flir.com/t500Series)
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I have been tempted by the T series cameras but, if I am really honest, I just do not like the design with the rotating lens barrel on the side of the display.
It is very much a personal preference thing but I felt the same negative thoughts towards the early NIKON Coolpix 990 digital camera with similar rotating lens barrel.
If I used these cameras for a while I may change my view, but for the moment I prefer the 'gun' shaped cameras like the Ex and Exx series. Prior to that I liked the camcorder format cameras like the PM series.
Fraser
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More details about the new FLIR T500 cameras:
T530 is $9995, availability as soon as next week. More specs here:
https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t530-thermal-camera-79302-0101-p/flir-t530.htm (https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t530-thermal-camera-79302-0101-p/flir-t530.htm)
T540 is $13,995, also with a few available next week. Specs:
https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t540-thermal-camera-79302-0201-p/flir-t540.htm (https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t540-thermal-camera-79302-0201-p/flir-t540.htm)
Interestingly, you can get more resolution from the new E95 (464 x 348) for the same money as the new T530 (320 x 240).
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More details about the new FLIR T500 cameras:
T530 is $9995, availability as soon as next week. More specs here:
https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t530-thermal-camera-79302-0101-p/flir-t530.htm (https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t530-thermal-camera-79302-0101-p/flir-t530.htm)
T540 is $13,995, also with a few available next week. Specs:
https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t540-thermal-camera-79302-0201-p/flir-t540.htm (https://www.ivytools.com/flir-t540-thermal-camera-79302-0201-p/flir-t540.htm)
Interestingly, you can get more resolution from the new E95 (464 x 348) for the same money as the new T530 (320 x 240).
Yes that is correct. This camera range is to fill a current void in FLIR's line-up. Interestingly, they all use a 640x480 detector - should be interested to see what the T800 range brings and whether the lower models can be hacked to full res.
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New updated version of the CAT smartphone which features the FLIR Lepton core. No detailed specs yet, but I suspect this will use the Lepton 3 module.
Looks much nicer, but I suspect poor spec and high price
https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone (https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone)
EDIT: More details and pictures here: https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/ (https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/)
£799!!!!
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New updated version of the CAT smartphone which features the FLIR Lepton core. No detailed specs yet, but I suspect this will use the Lepton 3 module.
Looks much nicer, but I suspect poor spec and high price
https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone (https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone)
EDIT: More details and pictures here: https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/ (https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/)
£799!!!!
Exact specs on the used FLIR module in the S61 are unknown, but from what I gathered so far the S61 actually seems to use the same thermal sensor as the S60 but with updated software allowing for a wider thermal range and an HD (rather than VGA) overlay of the rear camera image. In other words, no Lepton 3.
Looking at the datasheet of the Lepton, it seems to me that in the S60 it is only used in high gain mode, hence the limited thermal range. In low gain mode, the thermal range is expanded to over 400 degrees C and that would explain how they can get the wider range in the S61 while still using the same thermal sensor.
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New updated version of the CAT smartphone which features the FLIR Lepton core. No detailed specs yet, but I suspect this will use the Lepton 3 module.
Looks much nicer, but I suspect poor spec and high price
https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone (https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone)
EDIT: More details and pictures here: https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/ (https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/)
£799!!!!
Exact specs on the used FLIR module in the S61 are unknown, but from what I gathered so far the S61 actually seems to use the same thermal sensor as the S60 but with updated software allowing for a wider thermal range and an HD (rather than VGA) overlay of the rear camera image. In other words, no Lepton 3.
Looking at the datasheet of the Lepton, it seems to me that in the S60 it is only used in high gain mode, hence the limited thermal range. In low gain mode, the thermal range is expanded to over 400 degrees C and that would explain how they can get the wider range in the S61 while still using the same thermal sensor.
My friend who works at flir confirmed it is just 80x60 :(
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I had the opportunity to test Flir One PRO a few days. Uneven temperature values on a homogeneous surface are more than one degree celsius. Very low frequency of operation. Incorrect layout of the elements on the board - uneven heating. In many respects worse than v2. Slightly less noise in the image. This is the only but implicit improvement. I do not have information yet on reliability of work. The V2 version has a lot of breakages.
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It is my personal opinion that the FLIR One series are classic 'built down to a price' products. Manufactured cheaply in China and with inadequate supervision/quality assurance testing. There appear to be batches of duds that leave the factory. If you get one that works reliably for a month, you likely got a good one that will last. My original (first release) F1G2 has been very reliable.
Fraser
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New updated version of the CAT smartphone which features the FLIR Lepton core. No detailed specs yet, but I suspect this will use the Lepton 3 module.
Looks much nicer, but I suspect poor spec and high price
https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone (https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone)
EDIT: More details and pictures here: https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/ (https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/)
£799!!!!
Exact specs on the used FLIR module in the S61 are unknown, but from what I gathered so far the S61 actually seems to use the same thermal sensor as the S60 but with updated software allowing for a wider thermal range and an HD (rather than VGA) overlay of the rear camera image. In other words, no Lepton 3.
Looking at the datasheet of the Lepton, it seems to me that in the S60 it is only used in high gain mode, hence the limited thermal range. In low gain mode, the thermal range is expanded to over 400 degrees C and that would explain how they can get the wider range in the S61 while still using the same thermal sensor.
My friend who works at flir confirmed it is just 80x60 :(
Thanks for the confirmation.
I was wondering why CAT would choose to go with the same sensor rather than with the Lepton 3. It is what I guess most of us were expecting from a successor.
But no, a bigger screen, reworked MyFlir software and two extra gimmicks is what we get instead.
Cost? The Lepton 3 sensor isn't that much more expensive than the Lepton sensor.
What would be the chances of FLIR not wanting CAT to use the Lepton 3?
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New updated version of the CAT smartphone which features the FLIR Lepton core. No detailed specs yet, but I suspect this will use the Lepton 3 module.
Looks much nicer, but I suspect poor spec and high price
https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone (https://www.catphones.com/en_gb/cat-s61-smartphone)
EDIT: More details and pictures here: https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/ (https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/cat-s61-smartphone-bullitt-thermal-camera/#/)
£799!!!!
Exact specs on the used FLIR module in the S61 are unknown, but from what I gathered so far the S61 actually seems to use the same thermal sensor as the S60 but with updated software allowing for a wider thermal range and an HD (rather than VGA) overlay of the rear camera image. In other words, no Lepton 3.
Looking at the datasheet of the Lepton, it seems to me that in the S60 it is only used in high gain mode, hence the limited thermal range. In low gain mode, the thermal range is expanded to over 400 degrees C and that would explain how they can get the wider range in the S61 while still using the same thermal sensor.
My friend who works at flir confirmed it is just 80x60 :(
Thanks for the confirmation.
I was wondering why CAT would choose to go with the same sensor rather than with the Lepton 3. It is what I guess most of us were expecting from a successor.
But no, a bigger screen, reworked MyFlir software and two extra gimmicks is what we get instead.
Cost? The Lepton 3 sensor isn't that much more expensive than the Lepton sensor.
What would be the chances of FLIR not wanting CAT to use the Lepton 3?
I suspect it's all down to cost. FLIR probably have a huge surplus of the older gen, so gave CAT a great deal.
I'm done with the Lepton, waiting to see exciting things to happen with the Boson.
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It is my personal opinion that the FLIR One series are classic 'built down to a price' products. Manufactured cheaply in China and with inadequate supervision/quality assurance testing. There appear to be batches of duds that leave the factory. If you get one that works reliably for a month, you likely got a good one that will last. My original (first release) F1G2 has been very reliable.
Fraser
Funny you should write this. I bought my CAT S60 through a Hong Kong based channel, and even though the phone was fine, the Lepton thermal sensor had a defective shutter.
Instead of sending it back for warranty, which most reviews said would be an arduous and longwinded process, I replaced the sensor myself. Before I did that, I investigated it a little, and it turned out that the sensor would actuate the shutter solenoid and that the shutter itself operated on a lab supply most of the time, but when coupled back together the shutter remained motionless completely.
It had me wondering if such a fragile mechanical part of the sensor actually has a place in a rugged phone. All reviews and tests focused on drops on conrete without breaking the screen, but none that I have seen looked closely into the FLIR module after the torture tests.
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If the CAT is the only phone with a thermal imager, there is no competition, so no need for them to spend more on it to have a higher resolution.
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jitter,
You had a problem not with the shutter. This is a poor connection connection. They use poor conductive glue.
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Oh no, that was one of the first things I suspected and eliminated. The contact between shutter and sensor turned out to be perfectly fine.
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My phone has been dropped through my occasions, the sensor and shutter work fine.
The CAT S60, also S61 are in direct competition to the C2 and C3 cameras. But the CAT is cheaper, brings higher rugged rating, better screen, battery, connectivity and a whole working phone with it. The S61 is a little more expensive, but I would still pick it over the C3, as you may get better software in the C3; but moelre software options on the CAT.
The rewired MyFlir app is probably the Flir ONE PRO app: it should in theory work on the S60 too.
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I would say that the S61 is going to be more than "a little" more expensive than the S60, by about 50%...
It's good to know that the shutter survives drops of the phone. Then it was probably a case of bad QC why I got a defective one in the first place, and perhaps a reason why it was sold at a much lower price through the Hong Kong supplier.
I certainly hope that the MyFlir app will be backwards compatible with the S60, but somehow I doubt it. It's not in CAT's best interest that current S60 owners should get the same upgrade of the thermal image. The fact that they won't upgrade the OS to a newer version would probably also be indicative of that.
I was wondering if the S61 would be an addition to the lineup or a replacement of the S60. From what things look like now, I'd assume the latter.
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The fact that CAT are not going to use the Lepton3 does surprise me. The CAT phone is a flagship product for displaying a clever consumer/trades use of the technology. I would have expected FLIR to want to encourage CAT to make the move to 160 x 120 pixels and proudly advertise the thermal camera core as a Lepton3.
I apreciate that the Lepton2 is still a very clever piece of thermal camera miniaturisation but in my opinion it was just a stepping stone device to the better Lepton3. The Lepton2 is what I would expect to find in various smart sensors like people counters, object avoidance systems or flame detection cameras. It is too low a resolution to provide what I personally would consider useful images. The step up to 160 x 120 pixels is dramatic in terms of the usefulness of the images produced. The addition of MSX does help both the Lepton2 and Lepton3 when it comes to thermal scene context and ease of user interpretation. It is the wide angle lens with low resolution that is the killer here. This directly effects the minimum detectable area on a target at distance 'X'.
I really hope that we see more products using the Lepton3 but I fear that the infamous FLIR marketing and policy department have a meddling hand in the current situation :( They have certainly meddled with other products specifications and capabilities :(
Fraser
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FYI the S61 will be £799 in the UK!
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So there have been conflicting reports about the Lepton in the CAT S61. At first only the visible MSX resolution was increased and flir told me that the resolution is still 80x60.
First reviews are in and they said it's 160x120 12qm; so does the support chat on the catphones website.
It will be on shelves by the end of next week. I will have a look.
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Looks decent.. video state the res at 160x120 (S61)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf7JjgWX_OA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf7JjgWX_OA)