Author Topic: The challenges of discussing thermal imaging technology on a public forum :(  (Read 12546 times)

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Offline FraserTopic starter

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I thought I would start this thread to highlight the challenges that we face when discussing thermal imaging technology on a public forum with a membership that is spread across our planet.

Why the need for such a post ?

I was recently trying to assist a fellow forum member with a modification to his thermal camera. The camera in question was a 320 x 240 pixel high frame rate model that uses a BST sensor. Such technology used to be found at the business end of a heat seeking weapons system.

I was warned by a very good friend that I needed to tread carefully. He has my best interests at heart and I thank him for the advice. The problem was, I am in the UK and the chap I was trying to help is in a country that is subject to a wide ranging embargo issued by the UK government. The embargo includes providing technical support for certain controlled technologies.

Whilst my assistance to date was not in any way in depth circuit level information, I could have strayed into dangerous territory oblivious to how such might be considered and viewed as 'too much' by the powers that be  :(  Technical support is a very loose term and open to interpretation.

OK, to the topic of this thread......


Whether we like it or not, thermal imaging technology remains controlled in terms of who may have access to different levels of capability. There have been many discussions about whether this is right, fair or effective, but be that as it may, there are regulations in place that are enforced by a large number of countries, for the greater good. No one wants to make it easy for 'bad people' to get their hands on highly capable technology that reduces the technology gap between the sides of right and wrong. This will always be a controversial topic though, and I understand that. Thermal imaging technology has never been so cheap or available as it is today. That availability sadly leads to people expecting more capability and availability of better cameras. Such may be incompatible with extant regulations that cover such technology.


So what are these regulations and how are they applied ?

You will often hear the terms ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) that comes from the US DoD and BIS policy makers. Basically ITAR lays down rules regarding what can, and cannot, be shipped outside of US borders without an export licence. If an Export licence is required, various paperwork must be submitted, checked and approved before a licence may be issued. This is intended to prevent the wrong people getting their hands on equipment and technology that the USA have issues with, such as enemies of the state.

What some may be unaware of is that ITAR can apply to a whole equipment/machine, or just a single component within it, such as a microprocessor, encryption ASIC or, in our case, a thermal imaging sensor.
So when someone states that ITAR does not apply to an equipment manufactured outside of the USA, it is not always true. If a component part of that equipment was exported from the USA under export licence due to ITAR, that part remains an ITAR controlled product even when integrated into a machine or system. Common sense really. This is why you will find NEC AVIO thermal cameras that were made in Japan labelled with warnings about it being subject to export controls. In some cases the microbolometer is a USA sourced Boeing product of military weapons grade. Hence it would have been exported to Japan under an ITAR export licence.

Now whilst the USA has ITAR regulations, the rest of the World has the Wassenaar arrangement This is an official agreement between many countries regarding the export of certain equipment and technologies that are deemed 'Dual Use' or of military potential. That is to say, an item that may be used for both civilian and military applications that could present an aid to the perceived 'enemy'. Separate Dual Use technology regulations also exist in parallel to the Wassenaar arrangement.

The Wassenaar Arrangement ties in closely with the US ITAR regulations and assures the US DoD and BIS that their controls under ITAR will be extended to members of the Wassenaar arrangement. So the agreement may not be ITAR, but it does respect and support the objectives of ITAR.

If you build a capable thermal imaging camera and the country in which it is built has signed the Wassenaar  arrangement, the sale and export of that camera will be subject to controls to avoid it falling into the wrong hands. This applies even if there are no USA sourced parts within the camera. The difference is that no application for an export licence is submitted to the US BIS for approval. Such occurs within the manufacturers own country, so the USA is not involved. This is applicable where French ULIS  Microbolometers are used in a design. There are sometimes still export controls, just not US export controls.

So what exactly is covered by ITAR and the Wassenaar Arrangement ?

It is best to google this and check for yourself as it is a wide ranging and complex topic !

What I do need to highlight though is that it is not just the physical device or equipment that comes under the controls of these regulations.

Knowledge can be power and technical knowledge can enable otherwise stalled or slow R&D.

For this reason it is not only the physical item that is controlled, but also the detailed technical specification (military equipment) and any technical information that may aid enablement or development of such an item by those deemed inappropriate to own such. In our case, this would include deep technical detail of how a microbolometer may be constructed, integrated into a host system, schematics and even interconnection wiring information. Details of data protocols are also protected where appropriate.

So basically, if I were to provide significant detail of how to integrate a microbolometer into a capable thermal camera design, the schematics for such, or just the pinout of commercial high capability thermal cameras, I would risk a visit from the UK's Special Branch to discus my actions and potential prosecution under the relevant regulations and laws. Not something I would wish to happen. This is another reason why you will not normally find schematics for high resolution, high frame rate thermal cameras on the internet. Even camera service agent Service Manuals tend to contain only test point data and board replacement guidance, no schematics that could leak into the public domain.

Thankfully the UK is not a Police State and our Police are not known for being petty. To gain their attention you would need to release enough sensitive data to reasonably enable an undesirable recipient to significantly advance their R&D or integrate a capable core, obtained illicitly, into a system. Even so, today's events are making me think carefully about how deep I will go into thermal camera designs and associated deep technical detail. Such is a bit of a minefield. Showing teardowns is not a big deal, but releasing reverse engineered schematic detail would be.

There are plenty of books on the topic of thermal imaging and the technology used. I have many and they can be very interesting reading. They tread a careful path though. Just enough detail to explain how a thermal imaging system works and why it behaves as it does, without providing detail that may be of use to undesirables.

Before anyone says this level of control is daft, remember ISIS were desperate to re-enable time expired missile systems that used M-SALT high current short duration battery packs. They actively sought information on making a replacement battery to enable the missiles use. Knowledge IS power and it should be disseminated responsibly.

I am happy to discuss this matter further, just remember, I did not create the policies, I do have to comply with them however.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-use_technology

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassenaar_Arrangement

Fraser
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 05:43:15 pm by Fraser »
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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ITAR embargoed and sanctioned countries

http://www.export.pitt.edu/embargoed-and-sanctioned-countries

Fraser
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Current UK Arms embargoes (includes Dual Use Technology)

I have to adhear to these.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/current-arms-embargoes-and-other-restrictions

Fraser
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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If I have helped you please consider a donation : https://gofund.me/c86b0a2c
 

Offline Bashstreet

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Umm yeah YOU CAN get in trouble helping terrorist or countries embargoed to develop thermal targeting systems for military applications...
I would suggest not to discuss such applications of thermal detection systems here or any where in internet.
 

Offline Kevin.D

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Are these restrictions on thermal imaging technology even still relevant these days where there is already such wide availability ? I know nothing about military weapons really but with things like deep learning networks available to anyone  wouldn't it be simple for someone just to train a network for accurate optical (at least in daylight) and auditory/radar recognition of a target and build them into self guided weapons ?. Why is thermal imagery any more important than optical or auditory/radar guidance non of which have any restrictions?  or are there other uses for thermal imaging (other than night imaging ) that make it more valuable as a military weapon ?

Regards
 

Offline Bashstreet

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Are these restrictions on thermal imaging technology even still relevant these days where there is already such wide availability ? I know nothing about military weapons really but with things like deep learning networks available to anyone  wouldn't it be simple for someone just to train a network for accurate optical (at least in daylight) and auditory/radar recognition of a target and build them into self guided weapons ?. Why is thermal imagery any more important than optical or auditory/radar guidance non of which have any restrictions?  or are there other uses for thermal imaging (other than night imaging ) that make it more valuable as a military weapon ?

Regards

Sharing providing or helping to develop military grade technology with any country embargoed sanctioned or considered potential enemy of country of your origin is asking for trouble anyone with common sense should understand the concept.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Just a little further clarification on ITAR.  In any export from the US that is subject to ITAR a license is issued which identifies specifically the technology elements which are permitted for export and the allowed use of those technologies.  The license is a binding legal document on both the exporter and the recipient.  This is how ITAR rules propagate to countries other than the US.

I would advise anyone planning to dip their toes in these waters to get advice from a real expert.  I am not such even though during my employment I had many, many hours of training on ITAR.  There are myriad nooks and crannies in this subject.  Also, as you might expect, the regulations are not really clear about what is being protected.  There is no desire to create a roadmap telling the bad guys where to look for comparable capabilities or methods to defeat specific capabilities.

The biggest problem, as Fraser says, is that the rules apply to everyone.  You don't have to have worked for the government or a defense contractor.  And ignorance is never a defense. 

There is value in protecting this knowledge.  If the knowledge had no value people here on this forum would not be asking for help, looking for ways to implement and improve operations and so on.  No deep learning network can replace the efforts of the teams of really bright people that have worked to develop advantages for their nations. 
 

Online coppice

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Why is thermal imagery any more important than optical or auditory/radar guidance non of which have any restrictions?
Interesting. When were the restrictions on optical and radar guidance removed?  :)
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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When I started my PhD dissertation project, which is a 10kV, 200A, 50ns switching power module, I knew it is ITAR controlled. My white American professor gave me this advice: do it, publish it, and when the world knows how to do it, US government will be forced to upgrade their outdated ITAR database.

And it was accepted by APEC2018, where the paper will be presented to the world.

At this moment, I've not been deported, and my boss is not fired, at least not yet.

If the ITAR database is outdated, how is your dissertation advancing the state of knowledge?  Perhaps it is not the law which is invalid, but your soon to be minted PhD. 

Does your professor have deep knowledge about whether this technology is harmful to the US or to the world in general?  He is taking the position that he can set or drive US policy.  While I agree that many areas of ITAR have been overcome by worldwide development there are other methods for achieving the change.  Simple documentation of the facts to the state department actually works, albeit slowly.  Individuals should not set national policy, either here in the US or in China.  I actually believe China is harsher in its implementation of this concept than the US.

 

Online coppice

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The deemed export of restricted technology is a minefield when it comes to non-physical exports, whether it is a non-physical end product (e.g. software) or detailed technical knowledge of a restricted topic. Blurting out the details of restricted technology on the world stage can get you into trouble, if its something the powers that be really care about, and the consequences can be severe. What blueskull described could well put him in danger, unless the ITAR restrictions truly are out of date.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 05:50:15 pm by coppice »
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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The deemed export of restricted technology is a minefield when it comes to non-physical exports, whether it is a non-physical end product (e.g. software) or detailed technical knowledge of a restricted topic. Blurting out the details of restricted technology on the world stage can get you into trouble, if its something the powers that be really care about, and the consequences can be severe. What blueskull described could well put him in danger, unless the ITAR restrictions truly are out of date.

Doesn't matter if they are out of date - except maybe in the appeals process.  What matters is if the powers that be care, and if they find out about it.  The line from the old "Independence Day" movie - "We don't get out much" really does have a lot of truth in it.
 

Offline Bashstreet

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When I started my PhD dissertation project, which is a 10kV, 200A, 50ns switching power module, I knew it is ITAR controlled. My white American professor gave me this advice: do it, publish it, and when the world knows how to do it, US government will be forced to upgrade their outdated ITAR database.

And it was accepted by APEC2018, where the paper will be presented to the world.

At this moment, I've not been deported, and my boss is not fired, at least not yet.

What ITAR Regulation did your switching power module break ?

1. If you knew it would break regulations why did you do it ?
2. Why would you arrive to U.S to break the law ?

It is all very strange behavior.
 
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Online coppice

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The deemed export of restricted technology is a minefield when it comes to non-physical exports, whether it is a non-physical end product (e.g. software) or detailed technical knowledge of a restricted topic. Blurting out the details of restricted technology on the world stage can get you into trouble, if its something the powers that be really care about, and the consequences can be severe. What blueskull described could well put him in danger, unless the ITAR restrictions truly are out of date.

Doesn't matter if they are out of date - except maybe in the appeals process.  What matters is if the powers that be care, and if they find out about it.  The line from the old "Independence Day" movie - "We don't get out much" really does have a lot of truth in it.
Sure, he's in danger, whether the rules are out of date or not.  However, if the powers that be look at it and accept that the rules are out of date, and nobody was making big bucks from the rule breaking, they will probably only take action if someone is having a bad day. Guilt doesn't always lead to prosecution. :)
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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It seems to me that some people do not fully understand the purpose of these restrictions and by there apparent political ignorance potentially put us all in further danger. Anybody with common sense such as the OP can see the potential for misuse of information. I used to work under the then Cocom rules and we felt morally responsible for there implementation but I know some people tried to find way's around them. It is not just thermal imaging but I have seen other discussions here of sensitive technologies sometimes with members who openly admit they are from restricted countries. It is sad that some individuals think it a badge of honor to openly discuss bending the rules.
 
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Offline Bashstreet

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It seems to me that some people do not fully understand the purpose of these restrictions and by there apparent political ignorance potentially put us all in further danger. Anybody with common sense such as the OP can see the potential for misuse of information. I used to work under the then Cocom rules and we felt morally responsible for there implementation but I know some people tried to find way's around them. It is not just thermal imaging but I have seen other discussions here of sensitive technologies sometimes with members who openly admit they are from restricted countries. It is sad that some individuals think it a badge of honor to openly discuss bending the rules.

Yes i think that kind of is the point...

Most people have certain level of common sense and respect for their country to not spread information that can be harmful for the interest of their country of origin or their adopted nation if they are immigrants.
 

Online coppice

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It seems to me that some people do not fully understand the purpose of these restrictions and by there apparent political ignorance potentially put us all in further danger. Anybody with common sense such as the OP can see the potential for misuse of information. I used to work under the then Cocom rules and we felt morally responsible for there implementation but I know some people tried to find way's around them. It is not just thermal imaging but I have seen other discussions here of sensitive technologies sometimes with members who openly admit they are from restricted countries. It is sad that some individuals think it a badge of honor to openly discuss bending the rules.
I find that most people who appear deeply knowledgeable about restricted technology give only very general answers about what is possible. Few are dumb enough to give much detail about how something might be achieved. People deep into advanced things are generally excited by their work, and would love to talk about. They usually show considerable restraint.
 

Offline Towger

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What blueskull described could well put him in danger, unless the ITAR restrictions truly are out of date.

In deed it can.  A good friend of the family  no longer stepped foot on mainland Europe after an ex work colleague of his got knocked off, for building a well known weapon system for Suddam.  He had nothing to do with it, but had worked with him on the original for the Canadian government.  The worry was of been kidnapped for his knowledge of such things...
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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...
The problem was, I am in the UK and the chap I was trying to help is in a country that is subject to a wide ranging embargo issued by the UK government. The embargo includes providing technical support for certain controlled technologies.

Whilst my assistance to date was not in any way in depth circuit level information, I could have strayed into dangerous territory oblivious to how such might be considered and viewed as 'too much' by the powers that be  :(  Technical support is a very loose term and open to interpretation.
...
Fraser

I think it should be noted that regardless of who we might be talking to at the moment on any given page that the forum is totally public, so any information presented here is not only "exported" to the current participants but is "released to the public domain" and can therefore be deemed to be "exported" to anyone, anywhere.  I think "releasing to the public domain" also requires permission.  If for instance, someone wants to present a "paper" including sensitive information at a technology conference they are expected to get permission to do that ahead of time (at least here in the US).

A thread for this topic is definitely needed; not only to inform people who have not been exposed to the rules but to remind those of us who have been exposed.  I thought long & hard about joining this forum to discuss image processing & finally jumped in after finding several university papers on improving thermal images, but still got "caught" later in a framerate discussion, so this is risky business here.
I am not opposed to exercise, unless it is an exercise in futility.
 

Offline Ben321

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So there's 3 categories of things that are being potentially regulated.
1) Hardware, the actual thermal camera.
2) Software, both the PC-side software and the firmware in the hardware.
3) Knowledge, such as technical details of the hardware and software in question.

Of these 3 categories, the least regulated is sure to be the "knowledge" category, at least in the US. The reason for that, is that the act of conveying knowledge is "speech", and the Constitution protects "speech". There have been many dictatorships in the world (including the most infamous in the last century, Nazi Germany) that have banned certain speech by labeling it "dangerous speech", even to the point of literally burning books. The US, from its very start, has made it a high priority to avoid engaging in dictatorship practices, as is codified in the US constitution. There are few exceptions to this. One of these is for government workers, who are forbidden from disseminating "classified information". When a person gets a security clearance (which permits them to access certain information from government computers), they are bound by law to not disseminate any information that is classified (anything marked confidential, secret, or top secret). However, most of us on this forum are not government employees with security clearances, so we aren't bound by law to avoid any information dissemination (assuming you aren't disseminating it for the purpose of helping a criminal, terrorist, or enemy nation, in which case your actions+intent make you guilty of "aiding and abetting"). Furthermore, I don't think technical info regarding non-military thermal imaging devices (like the ones FLIR sells for commercial/industrial purposes, even high end commercial/industrial ones like the T640) is classified information, though some of it might be FLIR trade secrets, which means it's illegal for a FLIR employee to disseminate it.

When it comes to simply conveying knowledge (protected by the US Constitution), you really can only get into legal trouble if you do it for criminal purposes. If for example I posted certain technical info on a forum run by a terrorist group, then it's clear I have the intent to help that terrorist group. Meanwhile, if I post the same info to a general technical forum, accessible to the public, it's clear I don't have any criminal intent, but rather simply want to share information with fellow tech hobbyists, so it's not illegal. As with most other potentially illegal actions, it's not the action alone that is illegal, but rather the combination of action+intent.
 

Offline IwuzBornanerd

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@Ben321:

"Methinks" you had best review the regulations before making blanket hypothetical declarations regarding how the bureaucratic world behaves.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 12:03:36 am by IwuzBornanerd »
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Offline Bashstreet

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@Beb321:

"Methinks" you had best review the regulations before making blanket hypothetical declarations regarding how the bureaucratic world behaves.

"Methinks" also so.
 

Offline Ben321

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Well, we talk about all kinds of thermal imager topics on these forums, and it's not shut down yet. Thermal imagers for phones have been reverse engineered to so as to write software to run them on the PC. 80x60 thermal imagers have had their firmware settings modified to allow the full 320x240 sensor resolution to be used. So far the only topic on here that has been criticized is talking about how to mod a thermal imager to boost its frame rate. It seems that a lot of technical talk about thermal imagers is permitted on these forums, without fear of the site being shut down by the government.
 


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