Author Topic: The challenges of discussing thermal imaging technology on a public forum :(  (Read 12417 times)

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Offline Bashstreet

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Well, we talk about all kinds of thermal imager topics on these forums, and it's not shut down yet. Thermal imagers for phones have been reverse engineered to so as to write software to run them on the PC. 80x60 thermal imagers have had their firmware settings modified to allow the full 320x240 sensor resolution to be used. So far the only topic on here that has been criticized is talking about how to mod a thermal imager to boost its frame rate. It seems that a lot of technical talk about thermal imagers is permitted on these forums, without fear of the site being shut down by the government.

I am rather convinced if you start instructing a Iranian guy here how to modify their heat seeking missile technology you might find some "trouble".
 

Offline Spirit532

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Well, we talk about all kinds of thermal imager topics on these forums, and it's not shut down yet. Thermal imagers for phones have been reverse engineered to so as to write software to run them on the PC. 80x60 thermal imagers have had their firmware settings modified to allow the full 320x240 sensor resolution to be used. So far the only topic on here that has been criticized is talking about how to mod a thermal imager to boost its frame rate. It seems that a lot of technical talk about thermal imagers is permitted on these forums, without fear of the site being shut down by the government.

None of these things are regulated by the government(s), as long as you can't squeeze over 9 frames per second out of them, and that's been locked down and out of our hands(and this forum) fairly well.
The hacks are just hardware modifications that may annoy companies(like FLIR).
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Ben321,

To quote you

"So far the only topic on here that has been criticized is talking about how to mod a thermal imager to boost its frame rate"

I wonder why that is then  :-DD

This forum has a very knowledgeable membership with information spanning many diverse topics. Those who have sensitive information tend to behave themselves and not divulge said information. That is why you read of all manner of thermal camera related topics here, yet the forum breaks no Government regulations. We behave ourselves  ;D

Increasing the resolution of a  9fps E4, or reverse engineering a 9fps Lepton based camera dongle breaches neither ITAR nor the Wassenaar arrangement. You have quoted topics that remain innocent and without concern at the Government regulation level.

Now you go out and publicly publish information on how to hack a common consumer grade 9fps 320 x 240 pixel thermal camera for operation at 60fps, and see if the authorities choose to ignore your action. They may, or they may choose to make an example of you. Worth the risk ? I think not. There are areas of thermal imaging that remain 'no go' for public dissemination. That is just the way it is for the moment.

Fraser
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 09:54:20 pm by Fraser »
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Offline coppice

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Ben321,

To quote you

"So far the only topic on here that has been criticized is talking about how to mod a thermal imager to boost its frame rate"

I wonder why that is then  :-DD

This forum has a very knowledgeable membership with information spanning many diverse topics. Those who have sensitive information tend to behave themselves and not divulge said information. That is why you read of all manner of thermal camera related topics here, yet the forum breaks no Government regulations. We behave ourselves  ;D

Increasing the resolution of a  9fps E4, or reverse engineering a 9fps Lepton based camera dongle breaches neither ITAR nor the Wassenaar arrangement. You have quoted topics that remain innocent and without concern at the Government regulation level.

Now you go out and publicly publish information on how to hack a common consumer grade 9fps 320 x 240 pixel thermal camera for operation at 60fps, and see if the authorities choose to ignore your action. They may, or they may choose to make an example of you. Worth the risk ? I think not. There are areas of thermal imaging that remain 'no go' for public dissemination. That is just the way it is for the moment.

Fraser
You write as if technology is either available to commercial users, or only available to the military. In fact very little technology is only available to the military, but a huge range of technology is only available to qualified end users. Even pretty trivial things can't be exported to a small list of countries that includes North Korea. Other countries have increasing access to technology, depending how sensitive the technology is considered, and how friendly they are considered. In general an end user licence is required to supply anything reasonably sophisticated, but you can get a licence to sell advanced ADCs to Hua Wei to put in a base station. You can't get a licence to supply their neighbours in the defence sector with the same ADCs.

The OP's topic is material openly published on the internet, where the viewers of that material cannot be restricted. Take the rules literally and there is very little you can talk about in an open forum, as a North Korean might read it.
 

Online Bud

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Yes, yes, we get it, next time just type NK to save bandwidth, we will know.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Coppice,

The reference to a common consumer grade camera that is 9fps was highlighting the fact that such are very easily obtained these days (because they have the lower frame rate). Of course higher frame rate cameras are available to the public in many countries. I have an awful lot of them in my collection after all  ;D But who cares if you take a 30fps camera and upgrade it to 60fps ? The owner of the 30fps camera should have already been approved for ownership etc. The removal of the frame rate restriction on a  9fps camera can be a very different matter as such cameras are now commonplace, and the export controls far less strict. I hope this makes sense now ? 

I am the OP and your last paragraph meaning is not clear to me

"The OP's topic is material openly published on the internet, where the viewers of that material cannot be restricted. Take the rules literally and there is very little you can talk about in an open forum, as a North Korean might read it"

You can talk about many topics on a technical forum, you just need to be careful when providing technical insight into something that is controlled under ITAR, Dual Use Technology Regulations or the Wassenaar arrangement. We are free to discuss many aspects of thermal camera technology, I do not remember reading anywhere that this is not the case. We are, after all, in a free country and provided we do not cross a legal 'line' we are free to act and talk as we wish.

Fraser
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 10:53:46 pm by Fraser »
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Offline coppice

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Coppice,

I am the OP and your last paragraph meaning is not clear to me

"The OP's topic is material openly published on the internet, where the viewers of that material cannot be restricted. Take the rules literally and there is very little you can talk about in an open forum, as a North Korean might read it"

You can talk about many topics on a technical forum, you just need to be careful when providing technical insight into something that is controlled under ITAR, Dual Use Technology Regulations or the Wassenaar arrangement. We are free to discuss many aspects of thermal camera technology, I do not remember reading anywhere that this is not the case. We are, after all, in a free country and provided we do not cross a legal 'line' we are free to act and talk as we wish.

Fraser
The US rules mean a US semiconductor company, for example, can't sell any semiconductors to North Korea. What does that mean for discussions of relatively low technology in a forum a North Korean can read? I don't know, but it seems like someone could claim even simple technical discussions in open forums have issues.
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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@Coppice,

I added to my last post regarding availability of high frame rate cameras etc. I hope it clarifies my position.

Thanks for the clarification on the last paragraph. I see your point, which is why I created this very thread. Whilst in friendly 'conversation' with someone via a forum, it is too easy to get 'carried away' and provide a little too much technical insight into a topic and potentially breach either an NDA or some other restriction applied to privileged information.

In the case of thermal imaging technology, the 'red lines' that must not be crossed are thankfully pretty clear to those who work in the industry. Where a high performance IC is concerned, the boundaries of technical discussion may be less clear.

We do need to be reasonably careful when discussing some matters on a public forum, but I personally have seen a good level of self control on the EEVBlog forum.

Fraser
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 11:27:11 pm by Fraser »
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Offline IwuzBornanerd

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The US rules mean a US semiconductor company, for example, can't sell any semiconductors to North Korea. What does that mean for discussions of relatively low technology in a forum a North Korean can read? I don't know, but it seems like someone could claim even simple technical discussions in open forums have issues.

Is the "any semiconductors to North Korea" part of the ITAR/EAR rules or is that a separate sanction?  I couldn't find it quickly.  If it's a separate sanction it might only apply to hardware and not the associated information.  Plus any "low technology" information is likely already in the public domain.
I am not opposed to exercise, unless it is an exercise in futility.
 

Offline coppice

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The US rules mean a US semiconductor company, for example, can't sell any semiconductors to North Korea. What does that mean for discussions of relatively low technology in a forum a North Korean can read? I don't know, but it seems like someone could claim even simple technical discussions in open forums have issues.

Is the "any semiconductors to North Korea" part of the ITAR/EAR rules or is that a separate sanction?  I couldn't find it quickly.  If it's a separate sanction it might only apply to hardware and not the associated information.  Plus any "low technology" information is likely already in the public domain.
The "comprehensively embargoed countries" under the EAR are currently Crimea Region of the Ukraine, Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Syria. That means you can't do any business at all with them. The other designations of iffy countries are on a sliding scale, where some kinds of business are permitted, with appropriate approval.
 

Offline coppice

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Does your professor have deep knowledge about whether this technology is harmful to the US or to the world in general?
It's a glorified mosfet, how can it do any harm? The only harm to US is that it breaks its advantage on advanced HV semiconductor, but that's more into commercial section than military section.
Leading edge semiconductors make leading edge weapons. Light, compact, efficient power electronics is crucial to improving all sorts of weapon systems. You don't want to starve most potential adversaries of all power electronics, but you do want to maintain an edge in how well your's performs. If you don't, you risk increased deaths in a conflict, and perhaps the loss of one. Doesn't that sound harmful?
 

Offline coppice

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Leading edge semiconductors make leading edge weapons. Light, compact, efficient power electronics is crucial to improving all sorts of weapon systems. You don't want to starve most potential adversaries of all power electronics, but you do want to maintain an edge in how well your's performs. If you don't, you risk increased deaths in a conflict, and perhaps the loss of one. Doesn't that sound harmful?
How about the reduction of loss of life starts from the West stop policing the world?
I wouldn't call the West's ravenous plundering of the world's resources policing. Voters do expect their way of life to be maintained with the minimise loss of life on their own side, though. Policies have to follow that desire.
 

Offline AG6QR

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Of these 3 categories, the least regulated is sure to be the "knowledge" category, at least in the US. The reason for that, is that the act of conveying knowledge is "speech", and the Constitution protects "speech".

...

When it comes to simply conveying knowledge (protected by the US Constitution), you really can only get into legal trouble if you do it for criminal purposes.

Not everyone on this forum is under the jurisdiction of the US Constitution and its First Amendment.  There are many other countries which generally have wide freedom of speech, but even so, not all of them have the exact same freedom in all the details (in some cases, they are allowed to say things that some US citizens could be jailed for saying, in other cases, they could be jailed for saying things US citizens could say with impunity).

Under the US Constitution, the freedom of speech is not absolute.  Recall Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were sentenced to death in the US for "simply conveying knowledge", as you say.

In order to know whether the intent is a necessary element of the criminal offense, you must read the statute, and in some instances, the case law, regarding the particular offense for which you may be charged.  In many cases, intent is important, but not necessarily always.  And even when intent is important, it's not always intent to commit a crime that's important.
 

Offline hendorog

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How many of you guys have a real handle on the process of ITAR? Can someone who knows advise if this process is roughly correct.

This is paraphrased from the following document:
https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/regulation-docs/414-part-738-commerce-control-list-overview-and-the-country-chart/file
All of these documents come from this page:
https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/regulations/export-administration-regulations-ear

1. Find the ECCN number in this document (electronics catgory 3):
https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/regulations-docs/federal-register-notices/federal-register-2014/990-ccl3-2/file

2. In that section there is a reason for control.

3. Take the reason's for control and the country you are exporting to, and look it up in this document:
https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/regulations-docs/federal-register-notices/federal-register-2014/1033-738-supp-1/file

4: If there is an X in any of the relevant boxes then you need a license. If you there is no X's which apply, and as long as no other limitations or rules apply, then you don't need a license.

Interestingly if you see something coded Anti Terrorism (AT) then it can be exported pretty much anywhere

So to take one of blueskulls examples of 3A.228c
NP column 1 is the biggest limitation, and means it can't be exported to China without a license, but can go to most of Europe, Australia, NZ and quite a few of other places.


 

Offline Ultrapurple

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This is all very interesting. I endorse Fraser's original point about there being areas where one needs to be careful.

The (US) doctrine of information being 'born secret' is interesting. If, for example, a college student in Milwaukee worked out how to make tomato sauce undergo rapid and uncontrolled nuclear fission (ie made a tomato sauce-based nuclear bomb) then that knowledge would fall into the 'born secret' category. Even posting a 'wow I did it' on Facebook would mean deep trouble for the individuals concerned - even if they had only set out to make a particularly tangy pasta sauce. Publishing the whole recipie, eg on a forum akin to this one, would immediately make every tomato-producing nation functionally equal to the presently rather exclusive club of nuclear weapon-equipped states.

A device capable of switching tens of kilovolts at hundreds of amps in microseconds has many applications, not all of them civilian. It may be instructive to look up 'Trigatron' and 'Thyratron' on Wikipedia to learn about how those devices - which have their roots in the 1920s - are useful if you can't get the tomato sauce to co-operate and have to use other materials for your recipies of mass destruction.

I like playing with thermal cameras, the higher the resolution and frame rate the better. At present I'm capable of making 20 megapixel still (landscape) shots with moderately readily available equipment (though I'd love a sponsor with better equipment and a travel budget!). Even with only a layman's knowledge of thermal imaging I can easily see that the equipment I use could be very helpful to a person or nation with nefarious intentions and, whilst I would dearly love ultra-high resolution, fast frame rate cameras to be freely available on the open market to the 'good guys', I understand that not everyone has peaceful intentions and thus reluctantly support the trade restrictions. As we all can imagine, it's easy enough for a nation-state to quietly spirit a couple of devices away in a diplomatic bag. But the fact that someone from the Peoples Democratic Republic of Personality Cult can't just walk into a Flir showroom and order ten thousand state of the art thermal sights is, I think, a good thing. And it's not as though I have much of a choice in the matter - them's the laws.

 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 10:01:10 am by Ultrapurple »
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Offline Bashstreet

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Tomato sauce do not have atoms that release enough neutrons to cause cumulative/sustained fission.
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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No you need good'ol HP Brown Sauce for that  :-DD

Thanks for your input Ultrapurple. That is the situation in a nutshell  :-+

Fraser
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Online FraserTopic starter

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The idea behind starting this thread was to highlight the challenges that we, as members of a public forum, face when discussing a technology that has 'supply and information' restrictions applied to it by powers with the ability to punish those who breach said restrictions.

I did not, and do not, want this thread to cause a rift between forum members as all are entitled to their opinions. I am hoping that this thread will act as guidance or a mild warning regarding certain actions involving discussion of some types of thermal imaging device.

I reverse engineered the FLIR PM570 in order to better understand its design and to repair a faulty camera. It was 3 months of hard work and I am proud of achievement. That pride could get me into trouble though if I had been unaware of the restrictions on the technology and published the complete schematic diagrams on this forum. I am by no means certain that I would have been pursued by FLIR and/or the US Government for such an act. But would I wish to risk such ? In my case no. In truth the schematics do not show the whole story as FPGA/CPLD configuration files and system firmware are not made available. All the schematics actually show is basically an 'AMIGA 520ST like' topology with some I/O 'bolt-ons', and a dedicated video processor board. Not rocket science, but the restrictions on sharing deep technical detail on such thermal cameras prohibits me releasing such into the public domain. I obey the laws of my country.

We live in an imperfect world and sadly where technology is considered a potential aid to 'enemies of the state', it often has restrictions applied to it. As has already been highlighted by Ben321, this forum still manages to discuss thermal imaging camera technology, and its improvement, without breaching any Government regulations. It is true that FLIR would rather this forum had not given birth to the Ex series camera upgrade, but nobody got pursued in court and no 'take down' notices were issued to Dave.

It will be noted that any discussions regarding how to increase the frame rate on the Ex series, or their kin, normally gets a quick warning from either me or another forum member regarding the issues of releasing such an upgrade into the public domain. Whilst I am aware of how difficult it would actually be to circumvent the frame rate restriction, I would not put it past the clever membership of this forum to work out a way if they applied their mind to the problem. Those with that skill set recognise the issues surrounding such an 'upgrade' though. Hence it has not been pursued on this forum. 

This is a great forum and this Thermal Imaging Sub Forum is unique on the internet. No one wants to spoil that but we do need to be responsible in our discussions. There is much that can be discussed without concern to the 'authorities' so we have some great threads here. Long may it continue  :-+

Fraser
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 12:25:11 pm by Fraser »
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Blueskull you have your reasons and beliefs.  No amount of argument from any of us is going to change your mind.  I will ask one further question.

Do you and your professor realize that you are not the only ones at risk from your action.  If someone decides that it is important your entire university could lose the ability to receive those funds you so proudly describe.  The grants, the equipment, everything. 

You perhaps do not place much value on this.  I suspect your professor, if he thought it through and discussed it with his department might not be so cavalier.
 

Offline timb

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Blueskull you have your reasons and beliefs.  No amount of argument from any of us is going to change your mind.  I will ask one further question.

Do you and your professor realize that you are not the only ones at risk from your action.  If someone decides that it is important your entire university could lose the ability to receive those funds you so proudly describe.  The grants, the equipment, everything. 

You perhaps do not place much value on this.  I suspect your professor, if he thought it through and discussed it with his department might not be so cavalier.

I don’t think you quite understand Blueskull’s point.

Basically, the United States Department of Energy gave him a grant to research this high speed, high voltage switching technology. Part of that grant involves publishing the information obtained through his research.

In essence, the US government is paying him to violate ITAR.
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Offline IanB

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I don’t think you quite understand Blueskull’s point.

Basically, the United States Department of Energy gave him a grant to research this high speed, high voltage switching technology. Part of that grant involves publishing the information obtained through his research.

In essence, the US government is paying him to violate ITAR.

On the one hand, this is a really good thing about US government funded research. The results of that research are usually placed into the public domain, with the enlightened idea that it will stimulate business and trade through people taking that information and commercializing it.

On the other hand, many published papers and presentations concentrate on the results, while leaving the details of how to obtain the results carefully and creatively incomplete  :)  I have lost count of the number of times I have read a paper and found crucial details left out. It's like having a jigsaw puzzle with a number of pieces missing.
 

Offline hendorog

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Interesting point referenced on Wikipedia, possibly pertinent to the discussion at hand.

"The ITAR specifies that the products of "fundamental research" are not considered controlled "technical data," so long as they are published freely. Fundamental research is defined as university-based "basic and applied research in science and engineering where the resulting information is ordinarily published and shared broadly within the scientific community, as distinguished from research the results of which are restricted for proprietary reasons or specific U.S. Government access and dissemination controls."

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=df3f1df6ae91cbdda2843035ec5b7fdf&mc=true&r=PART&n=pt22.1.120
 

Offline mtdoc

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Blueskull you have your reasons and beliefs.  No amount of argument from any of us is going to change your mind.  I will ask one further question.

Do you and your professor realize that you are not the only ones at risk from your action.  If someone decides that it is important your entire university could lose the ability to receive those funds you so proudly describe.  The grants, the equipment, everything. 

You perhaps do not place much value on this.  I suspect your professor, if he thought it through and discussed it with his department might not be so cavalier.

I don’t think you quite understand Blueskull’s point.

Basically, the United States Department of Energy gave him a grant to research this high speed, high voltage switching technology. Part of that grant involves publishing the information obtained through his research.

In essence, the US government is paying him to violate ITAR.

Right. It seems that ITAR, like other heavy handed government legislation (DMCA, the Patriot Act, etc) is there, at least in part, to be selectively used when the state decides they need a reason to go after an individual or organization.

Based on Blueskull's report, his research is implicitly sanctioned by the US government which is why his faculty advisor, and others in his department are not alarmed or concerned.  I have no doubt this is not the first instance where this has come up for them.

 

Offline Bashstreet

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1. If you knew it would break regulations why did you do it ?
2. Why would you arrive to U.S to break the law ?

My research breaks EAR 3A.001h, 3A.201a and 3A.228c.
Just for the fun, go to check out 3A.201a2, you will see how stupid US government legislators are.

Why did I do it? Well, my boss, ultimately, USDoE, paid me to do it.
This work has been shown to DoD, DoE and people from Lockhead Martin, and nobody raised a flag.

As a side note, due to the nature of our research, half or more people in my facility knowingly or unknowingly are breaking ITAR rules, and almost all our fundings are from wither NSF or DoE. We have ~100 people here, and 80%+ are non-American.

If US government doesn't want us to do it, how about not paying us to do it in the first place?

I had some cursory look at the regulations mentioned and soon found it would take professionally trained person to decipher the meanings of the particular regulations their real life applications and possible enforcement.

For a laymens perspective there are some concerns.

1.If your research has been funded by USDoE do USDoE actually know they are funding you to do this particular project ? You say your "boss" funds you (assuming from the funds given to him by USDoE) Has he been given authorization by USDoE to fund your project?

2.If he is funding your project without been given authorization by USDoE you are in effect working for him rather than USDoE and you are responsible for any legal considerations that may arise.

3.These concerns go to all of the parties involved "DOD DoE LH" they might know of the research... but they might not know who is doing it and with what authorization.

There is two options.

1.Your professor is being a twat and using you to make a point on your expense (might have been burned by himself by the regulations and want to "show them")
2.He is just yanking your chain and been given authorization for your work.

Any case do not "trust" you professor in such subjects get some legal advise or consult USDoE.

I do not think this really is a bid deal... doubt your research is such that it would be of concern but if they want to get on you well...

You know the situation better any case so you do as you think is best.

On side note if your research is such that it has military applications and you are planning to publish comprehensive designs notes including and or excluding design itself to public domain i really think you should reconsider.

Just my feeling of course i might know nothing at all about this.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 06:32:32 am by Bashstreet »
 

Offline IanB

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I had some cursory look at the regulations mentioned and soon found it would take professionally trained person to decipher the meanings of the particular regulations their real life applications and possible enforcement.

...

On side note if your research is such that it has military applications and you are planning to publish comprehensive designs notes including and or excluding design itself to public domain i really think you should reconsider.

Just my feeling of course i might know nothing at all about this.

Do you not think that a university department, faculty staff, legal advisers and government representatives count as "professionally trained persons"?

On your second note, keep in mind that research students do not publish on their own account. Their work is done for and on behalf of the university, and is owned by the university. Just as in a business situation it is generally the employer that is on the hook, not the employee.
 


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