Therm-App Pro with 640x480 thermal resolution

[frenky]

I believe this new module deserves a new thread. 

PDF brochure: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2097581/Therm-App%20PRO%20Brochure.pdf?t=1483455849610

Specs:

[frenky]

It seems that they have shown this module at SHOT Show 5 months ago:



He mentions price of 3000$.

[marshallh]

Would be killer if it delivered. I'm prepared for Seek-like quality degradation at 640x480, the die would have to be huge.

[sam1275]

Why it says ">110000 pixels" when there are 307200 pixels? Although it's technically correct...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why it says ">110000 pixels" when there are 307200 pixels? Although it's technically correct...

Maybe category for export control

[Ben321]

Why it says ">110000 pixels" when there are 307200 pixels? Although it's technically correct...

Maybe category for export control

What do you mean by that phrase? What is a category for export control?

[Bruno28]

Why it says ">110000 pixels" when there are 307200 pixels? Although it's technically correct...

Maybe category for export control

What do you mean by that phrase? What is a category for export control?

I guess that countries have legislation on import. In America you can't get a thermal camera of higher than 9hz without special permit. It's something to do with military. So a resolution category for pixels might be <110000 is ok without permit and >110000 might need some permit?

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[mikeselectricstuff]

In America you can't get a thermal camera of higher than 9hz without special permit.

The restriction is on export , not ownership. I don't believe you need any paperwork to purchase in the US, only to export.

[Bruno28]

In America you can't get a thermal camera of higher than 9hz without special permit.

The restriction is on export , not ownership. I don't believe you need any paperwork to purchase in the US, only to export.

Oh ok thanks for correcting me. I did not know that. I only gathered the information I've seen online from reviewer which state that some countries needed special permits and are difficult to get imported.

Well in any case in Australia I was told by someone that sells these cameras, that the 25hz needed a special import clearance.

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[frenky]

Previus version had 388x284 resolution which is 110,192 pixels.  (>110,000 pixels).
My guess is that designer used old specs template and forgot to change this number to 307200 or >307000.

[frenky]

Would be killer if it delivered. I'm prepared for Seek-like quality degradation at 640x480, the die would have to be huge.

i3system also has VGA thermal module for 3000$ in the same size package. http://www.i3-thermalexpert.com/products/t-e-v1/

Images and videos are really nice:

[SVFeingold]

The V1 (VGA) from Thermal Expert is $4k, and you can get the 25Hz option if you ask. So far seems like the best deal. Curious what the ThermApp will cost.

[frenky]

It's $3k for the rest of the world (not USA) if you buy it directly from manufacturer.

US distributor likes to add ridiculous amount of margin on original price...

Curious what the ThermApp will cost.

Opgal (Therm-App) representative on SHOT Show said that it will be $3k.

[Ben321]

Where did you get this info? Even the official ThermApp website makes no mention that they have released, or are about to release, a 640x480 thermal imager. The best device they currently sell is ThermApp Hz, which has 320x240 resolution and frame rate of 25fps

[Hagrid]

Where did you get this info? Even the official ThermApp website makes no mention that they have released, or are about to release, a 640x480 thermal imager. The best device they currently sell is ThermApp Hz, which has 320x240 resolution and frame rate of 25fps

You can get the information from them if you ask the support about it. They told me it is currently available on a per order basis and a pure night vision device only. I wonder why you can't / shouldn't use it as a thermography device.

[Ultrapurple]

Hi folks

I finally decided to de-lurk. I'm Ultrapurple, also known as Giles, and I've been using Therm-App thermal cameras for some time. I'm the Admin of the Flickr Therm-App group, which I started in 2014. I have several other thermal cameras but I'm not a particular collector.

I have a Therm-App Pro on order and expect to receive it Real Soon Now™. I'll post photos and thermal image samples on the Flickr group when it arrives.

[frenky]

Nice to see you here.
Please post an update here when you get it.

[Ultrapurple]

Latest update (13 Aug) is that mine might be ready to ship around the start of September. I've asked Opgal some additional questions about the device and will share any non-confidential reply I get.

[Ultrapurple]

I understand from Opgal that after the video above was shot they had some issues that caused some "delays and adjustments". There was a strong hint that the NETD is <30mK as per the brochure but no word on what sensor is used. I specifically asked if my guess of a Ulis Pico 640 was right but didn't get an answer either way.

The price is expected to be US$3000 with 19mm lens and US$3500 with 35mm lens. All are planned to be 25Hz, so expect to fill out some export clearance paperwork before you can buy one.

[Fraser]

The ULIS sensors would certainly be a sensible choice. They are a European product outside of ITAR but still controlled under DUT regulations. Dealing with ULIS is likely easier than US microbolometer manufacturers though. ULIS appear to be a very keen and relatively open supplier of microbolometer sensors.

If you Google ULIS microbolometer, they have produced a lot of background documentation on their microbolometer development. They are fine A-Si sensors. A-Si is always up against the slightly cleaner images produced by VOx sensors, but better A-Si sensor designs and image processing have closed the gap in recent years. The sensors And ROIC are highly integrated so require less support electronics.

The manufacturer of a camera that uses a ULIS microbolometer (or any for that matter) receives recommended pixel bias settings for that particular sensor. The manufacturer can then tweak the various bias voltages to provide the specification they desire. There is a trade-off with biases. You can bias for high sensitivity and lose temperature range, or for temperature range and lower sensitivity. Many thermal camera designs have more than one set of bias voltages to achieve good sensitivity at temperatures below 150C and another range with lower sensitivity, but coverage to several hundred degrees C

Temperature controlled Microbolometers are more stable than those not using the TEC (if available). The stabilised sensor array bias voltages may be tweaked for best performance whereas the non stabilised deployment requires more reserved biases and so not quite as high performance.
I suspect that the Therm App Pro needed some tweaking of the pixel biases to achieve acceptable performance, especially if it is not temperature stabilised in order to save power.

I note the stated temperature range is only 5C to 90C. That suggests to me that the OEM is going for the highest possible sensitivity with 0.03C NETD. Without the use of a TEC, that can be a challenge. The TEC would be quite power hungry though.

Fraser

[Ultrapurple]

... OEM is going for the highest possible sensitivity with 0.03mK NETD.

Fraser

I'd like to see that sensitivity from an uncooled sensor!

Just playfully tweaking your tail over a typo, of course 

[Fraser]

Oooooops. Brain fade

I will correct it now. Thanks

Fraser

[Ultrapurple]

I note the stated temperature range is only 5C to 90C. That suggests to me that the OEM is going for the highest possible sensitivity with 0.03C NETD. Without the use of a TEC, that can be a challenge. The TEC would be quite power hungry though.
Fraser

I'm reasonably sure it doesn't have a TEC, if only because of the quoted power consumption and the lower resolution build.

If Opgal has gone for best-possible sensitivity in the 5-90°C range then I think they understand their user base well. Judging by the 600+ images on the Flickr site, the majority of our 'domestic' use is roughly within that range. Yes, it is sometimes pointed at a freezer or a toaster but not with a great expectation of accurate results. Speaking for myself, at least, I'm more interested in making pretty pictures than accurately determining temperature profiles. Thankfully, mine is the less-demanding application and so rather cheaper than higher-spec industrial or research grade cameras.

I do dream, however, of a megapixel-plus imager packaged up with a (say) 15–150mm auto/manual focus f/0.5–f/4 zoom lens, all in a package the size, weight and price of a good DSLR. Oh, and just for fun, let's have it respond to LWIR, MWIR and NIR in three channels that map to RGB.

I think I will be waiting for quite a while before anything like that comes onto the market! And yes, I am familiar enough with today's technology and market to realise just how pie-in-the-sky my suggestions are.

[Ultrapurple]

Opgal has confirmed to me a design change on the Therm-App Pro. It will now include "basic thermography" - which I interpret as similar to that of the regular Therm-App.

This has apparently pushed back the availability date: I'm now expecting mine around the end of September.

[Ultrapurple]

I have just been informed that my Therm-App Pro is being dispatched today, 24 September 2017 and is due to arrive on Wednesday 27th. More information when it's here!