Author Topic: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?  (Read 633 times)

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Offline Zucca

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Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« on: January 14, 2022, 03:22:50 am »
This is why:



sooo... I got the BTT smart filament sensor but I did not like the design and returned it.

Then I started an investigation what is available that passed my quality standards, and here that I found.

1)  Pandapi3d.com Laser Filament Motion Sensor

https://github.com/markniu/Laser-Filament-Motion-Sensor

Over complicated but definitely clever design.
I do not think it will work reliably with every printer out there, too many variables in play.

Very clever design anyway, he deserve an applause...  :clap:

2) Duet3D Filament Monitor: Laser Version

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Duet3dFilamentMonitor_LaserVersion

Out of stock, there are some clones on ebay and somewhere else.

Again nice design...

3) Duet3D Filament Monitor: Rotating Magnet Version

https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Duet3dFilamentMonitor_RotatingMagnetVersion
Out of stocks.

Here my thoughts:

The optical tracking sensors do not convince me fully, from the Duet laser sensor:

Quote
Different filament materials and colours are detected with varying degrees of accuracy by the laser sensor. For most filament types this can be handled through setting an appropriate trigger value for the sensor. The sensor is accurate enough in most tested filaments to allow the print to be paused for filament run-out, jam or tangle, those filament types the sensor is less sensitive to may have 1-2mm of error in movement detection. Depending on where in the print the extruder jam or filament strip occurs will determine how much of an impact 1-2mm of unfed filament will have on the print. The sensor is proving to be inaccurate with certain PETG filament, especially from ESUN (Black tested so far) and is not recommended for this.

BTW I could not find any optical tracking sensors on the market to play with, everything out of stocks. Avago or Pixart... and I did not want to buy used mouses to tear down....

The magnetic ones is cool, but we can do better in the mechanical part, and also I do not know robust it is to high current PWM noises like the one in 3D printers.. it should be no problem thow.

I am now designing my own, based on the CTS 292 optical encoder sensor.
I want to keep it simple and send the pulses to the main Marlin µC which is the master.

I do not like to have a "too clever" µC in the sensor, since the config/adjustment could be a pain. I still prefer to have all my settings in Marlin conf file.
I still plan to throw a 8bit 8 pin PIC on mine, but just for very stupid stuff. The hard work should be done in Marlin.

What do you think?

I would like to know the opinion of other EE.

Thanks in advance!






« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 03:28:50 am by Zucca »
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Offline mazurov

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2022, 09:21:25 pm »
This is why:

What is the problem you're trying to solve? If you want to stop the printer before the filament start stretching motion sensor won't help you. If you want to stop after simply monitor the stepper current - when the filament is stripped in the extruder the change in current is quite noticeable.

If you want filament motion sensor take a look at Infidel and use raw (non-averaged) signal to detect motion.  You may need to add a signal conditioning circuit to it to better see small changes.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2022, 10:06:13 pm »
Can Marlin measure the current from TMC2208/9 and report back? Otherwise you are building a current measurement system which seems just as complicated.
Although it may have other benefits.

If you want filament motion sensor take a look at Infidel and use raw (non-averaged) signal to detect motion.  You may need to add a signal conditioning circuit to it to better see small changes.

https://github.com/drspangle/infidel-sensor

Interesting idea
 

Offline EverydayMuffin

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2022, 11:10:58 pm »

BTW I could not find any optical tracking sensors on the market to play with, everything out of stocks. Avago or Pixart... and I did not want to buy used mouses to tear down....


Pixart have a sensor for this application, the PAT9125.

https://www.epsglobal.com/products/semiconductors/sensing-and-haptics/optical-tracking/low-power-optical-tracking-miniature-chi

Used here: https://help.prusa3d.com/en/article/filament-sensor-mk3-non-s_2125/

 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2022, 02:05:22 am »
What is the problem you're trying to solve?

see picture Tangled spool, I want to stop/pause the printer when the spool is tangled.
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2022, 02:08:59 am »
Can Marlin measure the current from TMC2208/9 and report back?

I think yes in diag mode. BTW the home stops could work with current detection AFAIK.
But I do not need that.
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2022, 02:10:01 am »
If you want filament motion sensor take a look at Infidel and use raw (non-averaged) signal to detect motion.  You may need to add a signal conditioning circuit to it to better see small changes.


Don't like the idea to use a diameter sensor to sense motion. Better design something for motion movement in first place.
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2022, 02:11:13 am »
Pixart have a sensor for this application, the PAT9125.

https://www.epsglobal.com/products/semiconductors/sensing-and-haptics/optical-tracking/low-power-optical-tracking-miniature-chi

Used here: https://help.prusa3d.com/en/article/filament-sensor-mk3-non-s_2125/

Eh I know, do you think it is reliable will ALL filaments?
BTW I can't find it in stock anywhere. I sent an email and see.
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 02:12:53 am »
BTW I think the magnetic encoder is convincing me.

PLAN A: a magnetic encoder
PLAN B: optical encoder

Thanks for all the comments BTW!
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Offline EverydayMuffin

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2022, 09:20:18 am »
Eh I know, do you think it is reliable will ALL filaments?
BTW I can't find it in stock anywhere. I sent an email and see.

You said earlier that you didn't want to take apart a mouse to get a sensor. The PAT9125 is NOT a mouse sensor.

Mouse sensors are optimised for tracking surfaces which are exactly 2.4mm away from the sensor. The PAT9125 will offer better performance than a mouse sensor. There are boards available here:

https://www.codico.com/en/pak9125ls-tkit
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 09:26:22 am by EverydayMuffin »
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2022, 03:57:34 am »
You said earlier that you didn't want to take apart a mouse to get a sensor. The PAT9125 is NOT a mouse sensor.

Ciao EMuffin,
Yeah I said that because since I could not find any PAT9125 in stock anywhere, to me it was making no sense to tear apart a mouse to have something to play with.
I mean I could had a optical tracking sensor for free in one old mouse, but it makes no sense.

The PAT9125 will offer better performance than a mouse sensor.

Yes it looks like you are right, but I am missing the details....
I mean this looks promising...



but I do not care about rotation... I want precision in how much the shaft/filament moved.

Since it is used by pandapi and prusa, it is surely a good sign.
How can we know for sure the PAT9125 can work reliably with a 3D printer filament regardless the color and the material?

Duet uses PAT9130, with has better resolution but not ideal DOF, in my eyes.

I can also see the PAT9125  I2C registers



but it does not give me all the details I need... for example why two sleep configuration and who to deal with them?


I have also to admit I do not have to much knowledge on optical tracking sensors, can you what I have to do to learn the nuts and bolts of those sensors?

Many many thanks for the link, I wait until Tuesday an answer from epsglobal if not I pull the trigger with codico.

Grazie!
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2022, 04:43:45 am »
Interesting

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Offline Monkeh

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2022, 04:47:02 am »
Since it is used by pandapi and prusa, it is surely a good sign.

Prusa abandoned them for being unreliable.
 
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2022, 04:57:27 am »


Ah ah....

That's why I ask so many questions.... optical tracking sensors did not convinced me 100%!!!!!
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Offline natman69

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Offline dl6lr

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2022, 04:10:54 pm »
Maybe these two projects can inspire you:

https://hackaday.io/project/18804-coversion-of-ps2-mouse-to-filament-counter

https://www.toybuilderlabs.com/products/tunell-3d-printer-filament-monitor

I would upvote the usage of a friction driven wheel with an optical encoder. If upcycling an old mouse, you could additionally use a tactile switch on the wheel for the runout detection, so you can distinguish filament runout from clogging.
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 01:02:46 am »
https://www.toybuilderlabs.com/products/tunell-3d-printer-filament-monitor

Thanks this one is promising! well done design!
That said, I want to try a magnetic encoder, I think is has less friction.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:34:36 am by Zucca »
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 01:03:41 am »
I would upvote the usage of a friction driven wheel with an optical encoder. If upcycling an old mouse, you could additionally use a tactile switch on the wheel for the runout detection, so you can distinguish filament runout from clogging.

In both cases I need the printer to pause, I do not see personally the point to make a difference between the two.
BTW the AS5601 can detect a push button event too, and it is magnetic.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:52:18 am by Zucca »
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Offline dl6lr

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 09:25:46 am »
I would upvote the usage of a friction driven wheel with an optical encoder. If upcycling an old mouse, you could additionally use a tactile switch on the wheel for the runout detection, so you can distinguish filament runout from clogging.

In both cases I need the printer to pause, I do not see personally the point to make a difference between the two.

If you just have a runout, the print is paused (you could start filament change) but the print is without error up to the end of filament.
If you have a knot and the filament strips, the non-existent movement is detected later (after timeout), as you will have at least some delay until the filament not moving is detected. I would expect the print to be damaged already.
The best movement detection would be to couple the filament sensor directly to the extruder (without any slack) and correlate the sensor signal with the extruder movement. This is the case with Prusa, where the motor stall can be monitored with the Trinamic drivers and the runout is detected with an optical switch at the extruder lever.
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Best filament motion sensor? Design or buy?
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 01:41:40 pm »
It depends.

My goal is to trigger the filament problem with 1mm sensitivity. 3mm it would be still acceptable IMHO.
That said if the filament tangled in an infill area I would not consider automatically the print wasted.

Printer paused, user comes and assess the situation. From a paused state you can always abort.
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