Altium Circuit Studio??

[dhofer]

Not sure if this is taking the place of CircuitMaker or not...... http://www.circuitstudio.com/

Also, here is the news release: http://www.altium.com/en/altium/press-center/press-releases/altium-and-element14-partner-distribute-new-pcb-design-tool

[free_electron]

looks like a paid version

my guess :
circuitmaker : free - cloud based
circuitstudio - paid in several levels, local storage
Altium Designer : big enterprise.

[Rufus]

Strange that the owners of Eagle want to become a 'distribution partner' for a direct competitor to eagle. 

Strange that Altium think they need a 'distribution partner' for a software product.

Looks like that press release has been pulled at the moment.

[EEVblog]

Strange that Altium think they need a 'distribution partner' for a software product.

Yep, dumb.
And Farnell, WTF? 

[EEVblog]

Pulled press release is here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:24RNCM9JMkgJ:www.altium.com/en/altium/press-center/press-releases/altium-and-element14-partner-distribute-new-pcb-design-tool+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

Altium and element14 Partner to Distribute New PCB Design Tool CircuitStudio

Master distribution agreement will provide easy access to the global PCB Design community

Sydney, Australia – November 12, 2014 - Altium Limited, a global leader in Electronic Design Automation, native 3D PCB design systems (Altium Designer) and embedded software development toolkits (TASKING), today announced a partnership with element14 to distribute CircuitStudio, a new easy-to-use PCB Design tool based on Altium technology. CircuitStudio will be available in early 2015 and sold through the element14 Design Center.

The partnership between Altium and element14 realizes the vision of making modern PCB design tools available to a broader market. In doing so, it creates a closer connection between PCB design tools from Altium and component vendors.

CircuitStudio will provide users with an interface that will make it easy for the user to get up to speed but at the same time deliver a set of functionality powerful enough for professional use. The benefits for the users will be based on straight-forward schematic capture and project management tools as well as a powerful PCB design engine that supports 3D PCB editing.

While availability is planned for early 2015, both Altium and element14 will invite interested users to participate in the Beta process for the product. More information and details can be found on www.circuitstudio.com and www.element14.com/altiumcs.

“We are excited about the partnership with element14 and the benefits this will bring to PCB designers,” said Altium CTO, Jason Hingston. “With CircuitStudio, we will deliver a product with a modern interface that will be easy to use yet powerful enough for professionals. More than 25 years of Altium R&D experience around PCB design tools built the foundation for a product that designers can pick up and design with when needed and we are looking forward to the launch of CircuitStudio together with element14.”

David Shen, Group Chief Technology Officer for element14, added: “I am delighted we are able to announce this strategic partnership with Altium. With CircuitStudio, we are able to meet the needs of more professional design engineers who demand a simple yet powerful EDA tool with the features and functionalities to complete a complex PCB design”.

“CircuitStudio is a perfect fit for element14 and its customers. It complements our existing range of software tools that are already sold through element14, and offers electronics design engineers a natural upgrade path for more complex PCB designs and greater degree of productivity through efficient project management tools.”

[EEVblog]

looks like a paid version
my guess :
circuitmaker : free - cloud based
circuitstudio - paid in several levels, local storage
Altium Designer : big enterprise.

Either that, or free Circuit Maker has been dropped entirely.
Maybe Element 14 realise Eagle isn't scale to the high end?

[george graves]

Whatever Altium is doing.....I'm completely lost.   

[LordNobady]

All Altium had to do was sell Altium Designer with limits for a lower prize.
It seems thy fail even at that.

What are they thinking?

[mrpackethead]

Im going to be grumpy if altium gives away all the good stuff for free.   We who have just paid for all that stuff.

Well, they better make the subscription pretty cheap!

[LordNobady]

Im going to be grumpy if altium gives away all the good stuff for free.   We who have just paid for all that stuff.

Well, they better make the subscription pretty cheap!

Subscription cheap? I don't think so. the CEO has to be payed to. 

[GK]

The Circuitmaker site still appears to be up. This new one is even less informative, though I notice that they are spruiking "local storage" as one of the packages features:

"Local Storage
Manage your projects on your machines, the way that works for you."




Perhaps Circuitstudio is supposed to be a cloud-free or cloud-storage optional version of Circuitmaker, though one would think that would pretty much make the latter redundant, assuming that the aim was to actually earn some revenue from Circuitmaker by selling upgrades. Why would they need two paid subscription low-end packages?

I think Altium has too many of the types of workers employed that have to continuously invent and reinvent reasons for their ongoing employment. Or maybe some head honcho pulling the strings has ADHD, I dunno. All this pre-release hoo-haa seems rather not thought through and a bit daft.
 

 

[sleemanj]

Differentiating AD and CircuitMaker is understandable, but (one assumes) that this new Circuit Studio is Circuit Maker with less limits, so... why on earth another brand, what's wrong with Circuit Maker PRO, or Circuit Maker Local, or Circuit Maker Notretarded

Crazy.

And Element14/Farnell to distribute it?  That. Makes. No. Sense.

[george graves]

Circuit Maker Notretarded

Dont' count it out... the domain is available

[Eternauta]

CircuitStudio seems an answare to Digikey/Mentor Schematics&Layout Designer. A simplyfied interface for user not using the tools day-by-day but with enough features to be useful for low/medium complexity boards.

[ehughes]

Isn't Element14 the owner of EAGLE?   

[ElektroQuark]

Yes. That's the funny thing about all this.

[LordNobady]

Element has the choice, only sell Eagle and miss the income from Circuit Studio, or promote and sell Circuit studio with the chance that it will take over Eagle. It is a fun one

[nixfu]

This has all the symptoms of a classic Altium screw up all over it.   

[zapta]

The press release mentions Tasking IDE by Altium. Never seen it mentioned here.  Is it any good?

They create a fresh domain for each product (e.g. http://www.tasking.com). That's brand dilution IMO.


Edit: reading the Tasking press release, Altium recognizes that Mac OSX support is an important product feature. Hopefully the Tasking team will talk with the Circuit Maker team (where Mac OSX support is even more important).

"Given the growing popularity of Mac OS X and the development of ARM Cortex-M based embedded applications connecting to applications on the iPhone and iPad platforms, we're excited to offer our TASKING Embedded Development Tools to Mac users," said Harm-Andre Verhoef, Product Manager TASKING. “Altium's product offering will empower embedded ARM based developments and provide Mac users with the tools to bring their embedded applications to life."

Previously, embedded-application developers that preferred Mac computers relied on virtual machines hosting the Windows operating system within OS X in order to run an embedded cross compiler. This led to an inefficient workflow and a variety of challenges, including problems connecting a debug probe reliably to the debugger running inside the virtual machine. The native port to OS X of the TASKING compiler breaks down the barriers for developing embedded applications for Mac users, while allowing them to work efficiently in their platform of choice. Cooperation with STMicroelectronics made it possible to offer in-circuit debug capabilities with the Eclipse integrated TASKING debugger, using the USB port on the Mac to connect to the ST-LINK/V2 debug probe.

[Zad]

This seems to prove what many people have said that Eagle just isn't cutting it, and the developers don't show any signs of actually advancing the product enough. Lots and lots of words of reassurance, but it still looks and feels clunky and is just a dead end.

I'm sure I would love the product if i had a couple of hundred hours to use it in anger, but I'd still rather use an old copy of Protel 99.

Having said all this, I haven't the foggiest what Altium are playing at. They had a clear product differentiation, but not they have just confused the situation.

[Zeta]

CircuitStudio seems an answare to Digikey/Mentor Schematics&Layout Designer. A simplyfied interface for user not using the tools day-by-day but with enough features to be useful for low/medium complexity boards.

Exactly what I thought. Born as a result of market pressure as an answer to Digikey/Mentor and Mouser/NI offering. (I wouldn't be surprised of a RS/Zuken deal )

I think the E14 deal makes perfect sense for E14 (and Altium has nothing to loose). Probably E14 realized Eagle was not good enough to compete with the new offerings and needed better integration with their store.

Also, currently to buy an Altium Licence you have to talk to a sales representative (get a sales person in your office), whereas on E14 you will probably just buy the licence as you do with any other product on their catalog no human involved in the transaction lower sales overhead (Actually I would only offer email support instead of phone support to further cut down costs)

[ehughes]

The press release mentions Tasking IDE by Altium. Never seen it mentioned here.  Is it any good?

Tasking was another product purchased by Altium.   It is a rock solid compiler toolchain (used by the Automotive industry).   

[Bored@Work]

I won't be surprised if that group CTO of Farnell didn't know Farnell owns Eagle or didn't know what it is. Must have been a fine "of shit" moment when some underling told him.

[IanJ]

Hi all,

Element14 responded to a query I made about where EaglePCB sits in all this, per below.
Ian.

The way management see this is that EAGLE PCB is going to take care of
the low end while Circuit Studio will take care of the high end. Circuit
Studio is still almost 2x the price of an EAGLE Pro and it's going to
have yearly maintenance.
 
Farnell is still comitted to EAGLE and will continue to invest in it, to
provide for the needs of the lower end market. Circuit Studio is cheap
but only from Altium's perspective.

The goal is that they complement each other.

[tszaboo]

I've asked the people from Altium and Farnell today on the Munich messe. Cm is the free version, cs is the paid one. Farnell will distibute them. Release time in january next year. Nothing about the price or features, they did not have a demo.

[Zeta]

Hi all,

Element14 responded to a query I made about where EaglePCB sits in all this, per below.
Ian.

The way management see this is that EAGLE PCB is going to take care of
the low end while Circuit Studio will take care of the high end. Circuit
Studio is still almost 2x the price of an EAGLE Pro and it's going to
have yearly maintenance.
 
Farnell is still comitted to EAGLE and will continue to invest in it, to
provide for the needs of the lower end market. Circuit Studio is cheap
but only from Altium's perspective.

The goal is that they complement each other.

understood, loud and clear. CS will probably sit above $1.5k

[Bloch]

Updated link http://www.altium.com/en/altium/press-center/press-releases/altium-and-element14-partner-distribute-new-pcb-design-tool-0
 

[Pack34]

This could be the end of Eagle for me.

[Batang]

Seems to be a neat and tidy way of killing off Eagle.

Must be some deal they struck with EL14.

[borisz]

I have started PCB design with Eagle and was nothing against it. Designs became more complicated and I liked option to move tracks and buses in Altium. So I move to Altium. It was good software with acceptable number of bugs. I have paid subscriptions for many years.
In these years Altium started to release beta or even alpha versions and professional users became beta testers and we even paid for that. We paid for production software, but receive bugs - a lot of them.
One generated us a los. Via stiching make shorts all over the board. And DRC doesn't recognize it. Altium making full of us and as a concequence I won't pay subscription anymore. Forced to look for production software what Altium isn't.
Altium want's to be production software, but they have no professional attitude. They are deliver new functions, but multiplying bugs. On their site there is a voting page for bugs whith tons of a bugs. The most voted is there from Mar 12, 2011 and still not resolved.

[Bud]

understood, loud and clear. CS will probably sit above $1.5k

.... And a $500 increment  with each new release

[free_electron]

the altium website was just updated.

circuitmaker is free - cloud storage    http://www.altium.com/circuitmaker/overview
circuitstudio is paying - local storage  http://www.altium.com/circuitstudio/overview

[Zbig]

Now, one has to wonder what will the differences between the maxed-out (via paid upgrades) CircuitMaker and the CircuitStudio be. I'm holding my breath for BetterThanCircuitMakerButNotQuiteCircuitStudio and KindaSortaAltiumDesignerButReallyMoreLikeCircuitStudioPro.

EDIT:
Has anyone ever encountered two different software packages by the same company targeted at "professional" and "corporate" use? 

[EEVblog]

Now, one has to wonder what will the differences between the maxed-out (via paid upgrades) CircuitMaker and the CircuitStudio be.

That's the million dollar question.
And of course they are compatible from a file and library standpoint, right Altium?
Does this mean that CircuitMaker is now only free, and has no low priced ($<50) upgrades?

I wish they'd have figured all this out before they told anyone 

[IconicPCB]

Sooo... when?

[Zbig]

Does this mean that CircuitMaker is now only free, and has no low priced ($<50) upgrades?

It doesn't seem so. Their CircuitMaker website still says:

CircuitMaker will be free to start, giving you all the tools to think big and make cool stuff. An extendable platform means that as you create more diverse and challenging designs, you’ll be able to purchase enhancements to expand your software as you need

[EEVblog]

It doesn't seem so. Their CircuitMaker website still says:

CircuitMaker will be free to start, giving you all the tools to think big and make cool stuff. An extendable platform means that as you create more diverse and challenging designs, you’ll be able to purchase enhancements to expand your software as you need

So CircuitStudio is going to offer, what? Just local file storage, or some extra capability not covered by the CircuitMaker options?
It all seems so pointless to me, just have one version that is free with paid options and local file support.
Forgot this cloud only bullshit.

[Zbig]

So CircuitStudio is going to offer, what? Just local file storage, or some extra capability not covered by the CircuitMaker options?
It all seems so pointless to me, just have one version that is free with paid options and local file support.
Forgot this cloud only bullshit.

Yeah, that's silly. And just imagine all the confusion if it turns out that both products are indeed different in terms of workflow, menu layout, etc. Forum threads like: "How to do x in CircuitMaker"; then five pages of confused people; then "Sorry, I thought you meant CircuitStudio", etc. If anything, why not just CircuitMaker Pro = CircuitMaker with everything enabled?

[poorchava]

One question for me is: will Altium be able to pull their shit together and make up their mind before Novarm releases a DipTrace version that's better than both CircuitMaker and CircuitStudio.

[Rigby]

One question for me is: will Altium be able to pull their shit together and make up their mind before Novarm releases a DipTrace version that's better than both CircuitMaker and CircuitStudio.

I think so.  I just wish they weren't so closed about it.  Don't gather up a community, take email addresses, promise communications, and build excitement only to fall silent for months.  Super dick move.

[DerekG]

Hi all,

Element14 responded to a query I made about where EaglePCB sits in all this, per below.
Ian.

The way management see this is that EAGLE PCB is going to take care of
the low end while Circuit Studio will take care of the high end. Circuit
Studio is still almost 2x the price of an EAGLE Pro and it's going to
have yearly maintenance.

CS will probably sit above $1.5k

EAGLE PRO is currently US$1640. Element 14's reply above, states that Altium's Circuit Studio will cost "almost 2x the price of an EAGLE PRO".

This indicates that the price for Circuit Studio will be around US$2999.

[Vasi]

One question for me is: will Altium be able to pull their shit together and make up their mind before Novarm releases a DipTrace version that's better than both CircuitMaker and CircuitStudio.

Is the other way around.

[EEVblog]

EAGLE PRO is currently US$1640. Element 14's reply above, states that Altium's Circuit Studio will cost "almost 2x the price of an EAGLE PRO".
This indicates that the price for Circuit Studio will be around US$2999.

Then it's a dead duck. A dead duck that requires you to pay maintenance 

[Vasi]

CircuitStudio seems an answare to Digikey/Mentor Schematics&Layout Designer. A simplyfied interface for user not using the tools day-by-day but with enough features to be useful for low/medium complexity boards.

Indeed, anyone is preparing as best as possible for the real financial crisis that is yet to come. No one gives a s**t about Maker community if that is a skiny cow - because that means a long term project and they need every penny they can get today. And to be frankly, the community doesn't need special attention from anyone. Eagle is there to stay even if won't be developed anymore - the crossplatform binaries, the scripting engine and the xml files features makes it "immortal". So, I guess they already know that CircuitMaker is a waste of money.

In the end, CircuitStudio is the right conclusion and is expected to "bring the money" in the near future...

[zapta]

Eagle is there to stay even if won't be developed anymore - the crossplatform binaries, the scripting engine and the xml files features makes it "immortal".

It can still be challenged in the future by Kicad. It's open source and cross platform and possibly better UI  (I am still waiting for an official Mac OSX binary release).

Eagle's XML files are indeed very useful when diffing with a version control. Would be also useful to have a semantic aware diff tool for schematics and layouts.

[ehughes]

Until someone working on KiCad decides to

1.)   Handle components in a sane manner...  I.E.  associating footprints to a part at library design time, not when you push to a PCB
2.)   Provide stable binaries with some level of version control
3.)  Version control the file formats

It is simply not going anywhere outside of the very small user base it has.   The idea of a tool is to save you time.   Given the activity you see on this and other KiCad forums just getting basic things working, like an up to date binary and a manageable library system,   it is simply unusable by anyone who wants to get things done.

[zapta]

@ehughes, that's why I said 'in the future', kicad isn't ready for prime time IMO.

[n3wbie]

I don't know how accurate this is, but there's lots of information in this blog post:

https://crabtr.com/altium-circuit-maker-circuit-studio-features/

[zapta]

I don't know how accurate this is, but there's lots of information in this blog post:

https://crabtr.com/altium-circuit-maker-circuit-studio-features/

Very informative.

The file save-ability is not in the comparison table. It's an important differentiator between the three.

I didn't know that Altium is using topological routing. It has inherit push and shove ability.

[nixfu]

I don't know how accurate this is, but there's lots of information in this blog post:

https://crabtr.com/altium-circuit-maker-circuit-studio-features/

NO new info not already here on the forum.

based on what I’ve culled from press releases, websites, and hearsay and conjecture on various message boards:

[DerekG]

I don't know how accurate this is, but there's lots of information in this blog post:

https://crabtr.com/altium-circuit-maker-circuit-studio-features/

That links to Altium's webpage that discusses the introduction of Altium "Maintenance Updates" which are free for up to 3 years after purchase.

http://blog.live.altium.com/#Blogs/subscription-vs-maintenance-and-altium-designer-14.4

I believe Altium has had to do this to comply with Australia's (& other countries) Fair Trading Laws. Some previous releases have come out with some horrific bugs that were not fixed during the "first subscription year".

In recent years, purchasers have been able to argue that the product was not "fit for purpose" under these Fair Trading Laws, thereby forcing Altium (& others) to offer a later version to affected customers at no further charge.

I personally was affected with the purchase of Ver 6.7. During the subscription period, Ver 6.9 was offered for free, but this failed to address the LHS scrolling problem in full screen mode (that had been present since Protel Ver 2.8 some 10 years prior) & a new layer overlay problem presented itself that would only show the truth of complex designs in single layer mode.

I was promised in an email by Altium Sales Staff that the full screen scrolling mode had been "fixed" (from my previous versions of Protel 2.8 & DXP) when it wasn't. Altium's so called fix in full screen mode was to prevent the user removing the windows scroll bars. The problem did not present itself when the scroll bars were left active, hence Altium's fix was considered complete. However, the end result was no longer a true "full screen mode".

The end was a disgruntled user who looked around for alternative pcb design software. I now use professionally Proteus & DipTrace. I have used Altium 14 for contract work where the software has been supplied by the company offering the contract, but can say I don't enjoy using it.

I certainly support these new Fair Trading Laws that force Altium to fix major bugs at no further cost to the purchaser. For the record, these "fit for purpose" laws in Australia over-ride the Altium software agreement you are forced to agree to before using their software.

[jcrabtr]

I don't know how accurate this is, but there's lots of information in this blog post:

https://crabtr.com/altium-circuit-maker-circuit-studio-features/

NO new info not already here on the forum.

based on what I’ve culled from press releases, websites, and hearsay and conjecture on various message boards:

Yep, I just wanted to collect all this information that's spread across several threads here, hinted at on Altium websites, mentioned in some Dave-rants, YouTube videos, blog posts, etc. I've linked explicitly to this thread now, and updated the table with zapta's and DerekG's suggestions. If there are any other errors or omissions, just let me know. Maybe one day Altium will just tell us the features!

DerekG, thanks for the information on the "updates".  I was under the impression that you still have to pay for the subscription, but now have the option to not "upgrade" if you just want bug fixes. Getting free bug fixes for 3 years sounds like a step in the right direction.

[zapta]

Yep, I just wanted to collect all this information that's spread across several threads here, hinted at on Altium websites, mentioned in some Dave-rants, YouTube videos, blog posts, etc.

A table worth a thousand words.

[DerekG]

DerekG, thanks for the information on the "updates".  I was under the impression that you still have to pay for the subscription, but now have the option to not "upgrade" if you just want bug fixes. Getting free bug fixes for 3 years sounds like a step in the right direction.

I asked one of the companies I contract to as to whether they had received any information from Altium regarding the "free bug fixes for 3 years". They keep everything from Altium in a file which includes both mail (via post) received plus copies of emails received. I could not locate anything in the file that mentioned this, so perhaps Altium is keeping it relatively quiet from their subscription customers on purpose?

Other current Altium customers might be able to shed more light on this.

Take another look at the Altium Forum comments in the link below. I'm surprised Altium did not ban all these customers from the Forum, just like they banned Dave from posting on it.

http://blog.live.altium.com/#Blogs/subscription-vs-maintenance-and-altium-designer-14.4

This is off topic for this thread, so I have started a new thread below:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-'free-maintenance-updates'-for-3-years-were-you-advised/

[Omicron]

I just noticed this:

http://be.farnell.com/altium/11-100-15-1-e/circuitstudio-standalone-license/dp/2460554

The datasheet contains some more info:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1881546.pdf

They also have an entry for the yearly maintenance subscription:

http://be.farnell.com/altium/11-004-15-1-e/circuitstudio-subscription-standalone/dp/2460555

Looks like they are gearing up to release...

[DerekG]

I just noticed this:
http://be.farnell.com/altium/11-100-15-1-e/circuitstudio-standalone-license/dp/2460554

Cost is 2.335,94 € (~US$2634) so is priced about US$350 less than predicted here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-circuit-studio/msg583778/#msg583778

This includes the first year's subscription. On-going subscription price is listed as 386,72 € (~US$436). Does this only offer you technical support & not any later versions?

http://be.farnell.com/altium/11-004-15-1-e/circuitstudio-subscription-standalone/dp/2460555

If it offers you the latest version, the value in this software will depend on what has been culled out from the full Altium Designer package.

Interactive routing is offered, but no mention of auto-routing. No doubt the ability to export your netlist into Electra will not be on offer.

[wreeve]

Also listed as suitable for Mac and Linux! Might get me to use my iMac full time!

[jcrabtr]

It is also listed on Farnell for £1,868.75 + £309.38 subscription. It seems to be on all of the European/Farnell-related sites, but not on Newark. Also, the description says 'AD15' for what it's worth. I'll gladly pay that for Altium Designer!

http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=15001&urlLangId=44&langId=44&productId=97974195&storeId=10151

[DerekG]

It is also listed on Farnell for £1,868.75 + £309.38 subscription.
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=15001&urlLangId=44&langId=44&productId=97974195&storeId=10151

For your £1,868.75 investment, the first year's subscription is included:

"Standalone perpetual commercial license, AD15 single site with 1 year subscription"

It seems to be on all of the European/Farnell-related sites, but not on Newark.

Yes, this is explained on the datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1881546.pdf

"CircuitStudio is sold exclusively through Farnell element14, a global distributor of technology products, services, and solutions for electronic system design, maintenance, and repair."

I'm beginning to think that Circuit Maker is dead. The same datasheet states:

"You will also have access to an active design engineer community from Farnell element14 to share ideas and collaborate with fellow designers."

The real reason behind Circuit Maker was to get the hacker/maker market & to share ideas between them. It looks like Farnell offered to handle this side of things on behalf of Altium & Altium jumped at it.

[Rigby]

I don't understand how the presence of Circuit Studio could mean that Circuit Maker is dead.

How do those two things affect one another in any way? 

They are two separate products with two separate target markets, two separate economic models, and two different openness requirements placed on the user.

Corellation does NOT equal causation.

The presence of one does not necessarily negate the presence of the other.

[zapta]

I don't understand how the presence of Circuit Studio could mean that Circuit Maker is dead.

How do those two things affect one another in any way? 

They are two separate products with two separate target markets, two separate economic models, and two different openness requirements placed on the user.

Corellation does NOT equal causation.

The presence of one does not necessarily negate the presence of the other.

The speculation is that now that they have real revenue from Farnel they will not attack Eagle directly.  All we can do is wait and see.

BTW, if Studio indeed supports Linux and Mac OSX I don't see why Maker will not. That can be even stronger challenge to eagle.

[DerekG]

The speculation is that now that they have real revenue from Farnell they will not attack Eagle directly.

One wonders how much pressure Farnell put on the software programmers at EAGLE to bring their product into the 21st century ....... perhaps lots .......... with few results.

So, Farnell then look around for another option ............. which turns out to be:

"CircuitStudio allows you to easily import your existing designs from CadSoft EAGLE™ in a few easy steps."

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1881546.pdf

Inside intel is that Farnell actually approached Altium & not the other way around.

[zapta]

Inside intel is that Farnell actually approached Altium & not the other way around.

Do you know when it happened? Is this partnership a recent direction change or long time in the making?

[hikariuk]

BTW, if Studio indeed supports Linux and Mac OSX I don't see why Maker will not. That can be even stronger challenge to eagle.

Although on the Data Sheet it explicitly says it can import Eagle files, so they're obviously still targeting existing Eagle users.

[DerekG]

Inside intel is that Farnell actually approached Altium & not the other way around.

Do you know when it happened? Is this partnership a recent direction change or long time in the making?

Yes, it all happened quite quickly last year, not long after Altium announced it would release Circuit Maker for the Hacker/Maker market.

This is why I now believe that Altium will not put a lot of effort into the public release of Circuit Maker. Basic users will outgrow Circuit Maker pretty quickly & the answer from Altium will be to "upgrade to Circuit Studio by contacting your closest Farnell Office".

[hikariuk]

This is why I now believe that Altium will not put a lot of effort into the public release of Circuit Maker. Basic users will outgrow Circuit Maker pretty quickly & the answer from Altium will be to "upgrade to Circuit Studio by contacting your closest Farnell Office".

Nearly £1,900 is a hell of an entry point cost for a basic user...

[Rigby]

The speculation is that now that they have real revenue from Farnel they will not attack Eagle directly.  All we can do is wait and see.

BTW, if Studio indeed supports Linux and Mac OSX I don't see why Maker will not. That can be even stronger challenge to eagle.

But I use Eagle all the time, now, and I am not a huge fan, and I want something better... I mean Eagle works, but feh.

I'm going to keep hope in CircuitMaker alive within myself, at least.  Altium NEED a free tool if they're ever going to capture people on the low end at all.  I would probably keep a constant 4-layer subscription for CM, myself.

[IconicPCB]

Rigby...

There is always DEX. I know it is being trashed by an "expert" but then I wonder what the expert would say about eagle.

[zapta]

But I use Eagle all the time, now, and I am not a huge fan, and I want something better... I mean Eagle works, but feh.

Same here, holding my breathe for Kicad.

There is always DEX. I know it is being trashed by an "expert" but then I wonder what the expert would say about eagle.

No single package install for Linux and Mac OSX, this makes it less attractive for open source projects.

I also would like to know what FE would say about eagle, diptrace and kicad.

[Rigby]

Eagle is missing basic stuff that would stop him in his tracks. He just won't do without differential pair tools and 3D viewing of the board.  I'm starting some differential stuff and not having an easy way to correct trace length is gonna get old quick.  Not being able to visually verify clearances is annoying, too.

[IconicPCB]

Zapta,

I don’t see Esperanto displacing other languages any time soon.  Don't worry about Linux and OSX compatibility. Just do it for Yourself to paraphrase the Nike slogan. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_%28mythology%29 )

[zapta]

Zapta,

I don’t see Esperanto displacing other languages any time soon.  Don't worry about Linux and OSX compatibility. Just do it for Yourself to paraphrase the Nike slogan. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_%28mythology%29 )

Without Mac OSX I will have zero computing power and will have to draw the layout by hand ;-)

Note how the EDA packages that are popular in the maker market support all three platforms. It is for a reason.

[Zad]

To be fair, if more people had to draw layouts by hand at some point in their careers, then they would learn a heck of a lot more about placement and routing!

[Bassman59]

Until someone working on KiCad decides to

1.)   Handle components in a sane manner...  I.E.  associating footprints to a part at library design time, not when you push to a PCB

That's actually been in Kicad for years. You don't have to use CvPCB (and I don't, because you're right, it's stupid.)

Each symbol has a "footprint" field, which you can populate with whatever you like. And recent versions of the symbol editor have a button you can press which will open the list of footprint libraries, so you can select the library and then select the footprint you want (graphically!) and then the footprint and the library it's in will show up in the symbol.

Just make sure you use your own symbol libraries and not the default/contributor libraries and you're good.

2.)   Provide stable binaries with some level of version control

They're working on that. Part of the discussion has been "when to declare something stable," and then whether to back-annotate patches to the "stable" release or just require the users to upgrade to a newer release. (Everyone seems to lead towards the latter.)

3.)  Version control the file formats

The formats are versioned. There has been discussion about this. One issue is: a user creates a board design with an older version of the tools. And then he shares the design with someone using a newer version, who saves it, which automatically upgrades the file format version. That friend then sends the design back, and now the originator can't open the design because his version of Kicad is too old.

So what to do? Most are in favor of telling the users, "upgrade to the newest version," and that requires stable binaries (hence the efforts). Nobody really wants to do the "save as old version" thing.

It is simply not going anywhere outside of the very small user base it has.   The idea of a tool is to save you time.   Given the activity you see on this and other KiCad forums just getting basic things working, like an up to date binary and a manageable library system,   it is simply unusable by anyone who wants to get things done.

Except that users ARE getting things done with it. And it does work. Certainly you have to deal with the library system, but it's actually not all that difficult, and I think I spent more timing thinking about my library organization than I did actually adding parts to it.

[wreeve]

You can add it to your basket and get next day delivery.....I wonder what UPS will deliver!

[hikariuk]

You can add it to your basket and get next day delivery.....I wonder what UPS will deliver!

For that price a gold plated thank you note, I hope.

[c4757p]

That's actually been in Kicad for years. You don't have to use CvPCB (and I don't, because you're right, it's stupid.)

Each symbol has a "footprint" field, which you can populate with whatever you like. And recent versions of the symbol editor have a button you can press which will open the list of footprint libraries, so you can select the library and then select the footprint you want (graphically!) and then the footprint and the library it's in will show up in the symbol.

+1

actually, +42

KiCad's default libraries are stupid. God-awful in every way. KiCad itself is fine. Assign your footprints in the libs. You can modify them in the schematic too, and leave cvpcb to die.

(I read a somewhat recent bit on the mailing list suggesting they want to do away with cvpcb too, so that's good.)

The formats are versioned. There has been discussion about this. One issue is: a user creates a board design with an older version of the tools. And then he shares the design with someone using a newer version, who saves it, which automatically upgrades the file format version. That friend then sends the design back, and now the originator can't open the design because his version of Kicad is too old.

You misunderstand, I think (or I do ). Version control in the file format. Version control of changes to the schematic/PCB. I think that'd be really nice, but probably more of a "stretch goal" considering all the other things they need to get done first.

[Bassman59]

The formats are versioned. There has been discussion about this. One issue is: a user creates a board design with an older version of the tools. And then he shares the design with someone using a newer version, who saves it, which automatically upgrades the file format version. That friend then sends the design back, and now the originator can't open the design because his version of Kicad is too old.

You misunderstand, I think (or I do ). Version control in the file format. Version control of changes to the schematic/PCB. I think that'd be really nice, but probably more of a "stretch goal" considering all the other things they need to get done first.

I think maybe we're both confused

If ehughes was asking about version control of changes to the schematic/PCB, then it's already there, because the files are text and compatible with Your Favorite Source Code Control System. OK, diff-ing can be tricky depending on whether the file is entirely rewritten and things are moved around.

[FivePoint0]

Has anyone downloaded the trial now it's available?  Any comments on it?

What do you not get with CS that you do get with AD?

I love extra features but if this could mean dealing with Premier Farnell instead of Premier EDA I would be over the moon!

[FivePoint0]

Couldn't install it:-

[Rigby]

They must be in a real hurry with this.  Their documentation pages are mostly empty.

edit: I was able to install it, no problem.

[ludzinc]

Tried installing Circuit Studio trial at work today, but Corporate Rules stopped the fun.

So I enquired about an Circuit Studio, and Circuit Maker, and got this response:

Hi Simon,

I have been told very soon it will be released that is Circuit Studio is scheduled for release early Feb and then following that circuit maker will come out just after that but i just can't commit on an exact date until the announcement will go out just in case it moves.

Thanks for your comments it will be exciting times for Altium and obviously more options for our clients.

Best regards,



Viktor Haddo

Technical Sales Manager,
APAC

____________________
Altium APAC

3 Minna Close
Belrose NSW 2085 Australia

I'll try installing Circuit Studio at home tonight, and I wait for Circuit Maker with baited breath.

[corax]

Couldn't install it:-

I got that error too; then I realized that right before that, the login name/password was auto-filled with my Altium Designer credentials (I already have Altium installed on this machine).

I see from the download page that they are supposed to email you a password for the trial after you fill out the contact form.  Guess I have to wait for that to show up.

Edit:  Got it set up and working.  I was able to play around with it for a little while on the schematic side- I wasn't able to try out the PCB side yet since I installed it in a VirtualBox VM and the PCB wouldn't render (inadequate implementation of DirectX in VirtualBox, I guess- AD has the same issue).  Will play around with the PCB editor tomorrow.

A few random observations:

- So far it looks a LOT like Altium Designer, except for the new ribbon interface at the top.

- It uses .SchDoc, .PcbDoc, etc. files; I was able to open a couple of my Altium projects in it without trouble.  So it looks like it uses the same file formats natively.  *Edit: I was wrong about .PcbDoc; appears that the PCB files are incompatible.

- The schematic editor wants to keep all of the wires connected to a part when you move a part- wires are stretched/redrawn to maintain connections.
Not sure if there's a way to disable that or change the default.  Control-click-dragging a component avoids keeping all of the connections.  This is reversed by default from AD's behavior.

- The gerber output generation dialog looks similar to the Altium outjob screen, but simplified.
- File output seems to be native .SchDoc (etc) format only; save-as only allows the native file type and I didn't see an export option.
- File import appears limited to Eagle files.
- Tabbed document display seems the same as AD, as does the projects tree panel on the left and the libraries pop-out panel on the right.
- A new panel called 'Comments' appears to be for collaboration.
- Most of the preference pages for schematic and PCB look like pared down versions of the AD equivalents

The whole thing looks/feels very much like a limited and slightly modified version of AD, certainly not a whole new product.

[tan98010]

The PCB document is not compatible with Altium, the ALTIUM extension is .PcbDoc, but the CircuitStudio is .CSPcbDoc Oh noooo

[DerekG]

The PCB document is not compatible with Altium, the ALTIUM extension is .PcbDoc, but the CircuitStudio is .CSPcbDoc Oh noooo

What happens if you simply change the extension to .PcbDoc?

[corax]

The PCB document is not compatible with Altium, the ALTIUM extension is .PcbDoc, but the CircuitStudio is .CSPcbDoc Oh noooo

What happens if you simply change the extension to .PcbDoc?

I tried changing a .PcbDoc to .CSPcbDoc, but CS wouldn't open it.

CS DOES recognize .PcbDoc files in a PCB project, but if you click the file in the Projects panel, it launches AD to open the file.

[tan98010]

well maybe these are the trick that ALTIUM use to protect their "premium customer" who pays alot........

[wreeve]

Does it import Protel .Sch and .PCB files?

[DerekG]

We know that Altium (in conjunction with Farnell) will be shortly offering an upgrade path from Circuit Studio users to Altium Designer.

I'm assuming therefore that the next release of AD will read/import Circuit Studio files without an issue.

[corax]

Does it import Protel .Sch and .PCB files?

No to both; I tried it.  Didn't recognize either format.

I imagine that AD will eventually be able to import PCB files from CS.  But maybe Altium doesn't want to provide a less expensive alternative to AD users who maybe don't need all the fluff and are maybe tired of $2000/year subscriptions.

It seems that there would be some market for a less expensive tool for users with AD experience, maybe at a previous job, etc., but not being able to open your existing PCB designs would probably kill it for many such users. 

Maybe an AD PCB importer will be a paid option or something.

[corax]

Looks like there IS also an OrCad importer/exporter.
From the 'Home' screen, there's an extensions/updates option.  The extensions/updates section looks identical to AD from what I can tell, with
tabs for Installed, Purchased, and Updates.

From there, under 'Configuration', is a section for selecting/downloading importers/exporters, same as in AD.

The only options in there right now are Eagle, Orcad, and STEP. I suppose that this may change.

The extensions section also includes a subsection for 'Hardware Devices', which in AD refers to the FPGA stuff but is empty here.

[wreeve]

I am not being funny but this isn't a BETA? I expect an out of the box finished product?

[corax]

This is a 3000 usd beta. I found numerous gui bugs in it, and many crucial functions for studios are not there.

1. I can not find global preferences, only project options.

Global preferences are under the 'File' menu; at the bottom of the menu, there's a 'System Preferences' button.

Agreed on other points though.

[ludzinc]

I too have been tinkering, and I wonder how different the PCB formats are.  Perhaps a little hex editing might make files compatible?

Anyway - my observations so far:

Fast to load than AD, but so it should be.  Still shows as DXP.EXE in the task manager though
Loads existing Altium projects, can open / edit libs, schdocs.  NOT PCBDOC.
Wont load CAM files from AD
Hotkeys are a mess.  Some you are used to from AD work, some don't.
i.e. "select all connected" (CTRL-H) works.
ZA / ZB (Zoom All, Zoom Board) don't work.  It's right click and hunt time.
PT (Place inTeractive Routing (aka Place Track) DOESN'T WORK.  You have to hit the Route icon on the ribbon.  EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

That's a deal breaker for me, right there.

Generated new pcb quick - imported using libs as defined in existing sch files

Option to change colours to AD colours.  Red and Blue top / bottom layers FTW!  THe light blue / lighter blue defaults of Circuit Studio is stupid.

CANT DEFINE BOARD SHAPE FROM SELECTED OBJECTS.  NOOOOO
CANT IMPORT DWG/DXF - arrrgh (i.e. case drawing)

CAN define polygon pour from selected items.  Oh come on!
Netlist tools are there - win - i.e you can colour individual nets, hide / show selected ones.
Hierarchical sheets work, but no rooms, so multichannel duplication isn't there.  Old school copy paste it is hen.

To be frank, these are limitations that I'd accept for Circuit Maker, not a paid tool. 

Come on Altium, let us edit the hotkeys at least!!

[ludzinc]

- The schematic editor wants to keep all of the wires connected to a part when you move a part- wires are stretched/redrawn to maintain connections.
Not sure if there's a way to disable that or change the default.  Control-click-dragging a component avoids keeping all of the connections.  This is reversed by default from AD's behavior.

I can confirm this.  I can also confirm that I made a whole bunch of short circuits moving ports around.  Poor hotkeys in PCB and stupid wiring in SCH are a deal breaker for me at the moment.

Let's see what the update brings.  I'll be passing my comments onto Altium from work tomorrow.

[ludzinc]

Couldn't install it:-

Had the same issue from behind the corporate firewall at work.  The installer is an initial 8MB download, that then grabs a further 500MB to complete the installation.

I hate it when programmes do that.

They should offer a stand alone installer - you need it install a license file anyway...

[Rigby]

Why are you people that already have AD trying this out?  Do you expect a BETTER tool or something?

OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED...  They're not going to give away everything in AD in CircuitStudio, so there ARE going to be things missing... duh.

[Rigby]

Because I'm thinking should I suspend my AD subscription next year and turn to CS?

You don't need a subscription to continue using Altium Designer.  You only need the subscription to get updates.  Lots of people buy AD, don't get a subscription, and use it for years, without updates.

[c4757p]

Why are you people that already have AD trying this out?  Do you expect a BETTER tool or something?

curiosity...

... duh.

[Rigby]

Why are you people that already have AD trying this out?  Do you expect a BETTER tool or something?

curiosity...

... duh.

So why are the complaints so loud, then?  Curiosity does not arouse complaint, as curiosity does not have expectations.

[ehughes]

If ehughes was asking about version control of changes to the schematic/PCB, then it's already there, because the files are text and compatible with Your Favorite Source Code Control System. OK, diff-ing can be tricky depending on whether the file is entirely rewritten and things are moved around.

I meant that file formats should be version controlled.  The KiCad team needs to have some formal system for defining what data is in file.   This is directly tied to a stable release system.     There should be a well defined, documented source for each release of the format, schema, etc.       This is a standard software development practice to ensure there is sanity in how data is stored and that you can ensure forward compatibility.  Altium can actually go the other way.   I opened a board made in AD14 with summer'09!

 Simply putting things in an XML format does not mean it is controlled / versioned.


About 9 months ago I posted an anecdote how a customer insisted on me doing a design review using the KiCad files.       The process of getting a binary that could open his files was ridiculous.     They indirectly paid a lot of money for KiCad.

[c4757p]

So why are the complaints so loud, then?  Curiosity does not arouse complaint, as curiosity does not have expectations.

Opinions. I gather you know what those are.

[Rigby]

So why are the complaints so loud, then?  Curiosity does not arouse complaint, as curiosity does not have expectations.

Opinions. I gather you know what those are.

I'd appreciate communicating without being patronized, thank you very much.

If the opinions were just opinions, that would be fine, but they're not.  They're angry "this is fucking shitty" type comments, followed quickly by "fuck this, back to Altium Designer," or something along those lines.  If that doesn't strongly imply unmet expectations, then I don't know what does.

By the way, I don't care if you have expectations, JUST SAY THAT!  Say that "oh I expected this, and it isn't here," or whatever.  Don't disguise that bullshit as opinion.

[free_electron]

my two cents is this :

people are interested in circuitstudio because all they need is schematic/ pcb. no interest in fpga , the tasking tools , the simulator or the vault or some advanced things like flex , xnets and other things

circuitstudio is perfect for that.

That is also what altium sees. they need a 'cheaper version' of their flagship product.

So in a sense some of the AD users will drop AD and switch to CS because it is cheaper and fits their need. interacting with AD users is painless as AD reads CS ( i actually believe it is bidirectional. the format may even be identical , only the Circuitmaker will be cloud. CS is local storage )

anyway. the relation CS <> AD is trnasparent when it comes to data exchange

[corax]

Why are you people that already have AD trying this out?  Do you expect a BETTER tool or something?

OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED...  They're not going to give away everything in AD in CircuitStudio, so there ARE going to be things missing... duh.

In my case, I use AD at my main job- my employer bought it.
But I do small side jobs in my spare time, and I shouldn't be using my employer's tools for that.  I was interested in CS as a possible tool for those jobs.
I've tried Eagle many times and just get frustrated with it; I'm too used to AD, but I don't do nearly enough side work to justify purchase of an AD licence for myself.


 

[Rigby]

OK that makes perfect sense.

Eagle and AD are too different, as you indicated, to switch between them daily.  I can't get AD at work, so I have Eagle, and I'm trying to learn AD at home, and switching mindsets is a proper pain.

[c4757p]

So why are the complaints so loud, then?  Curiosity does not arouse complaint, as curiosity does not have expectations.

Opinions. I gather you know what those are.

I'd appreciate communicating without being patronized, thank you very much.

I'm not patronizing you, I'm calling you opinionated. Don't worry, so am I.

[DerekG]

In my case, I use AD at my main job- my employer bought it.
But I do small side jobs in my spare time, and I shouldn't be using my employer's tools for that.  I was interested in CS as a possible tool for those jobs.
I've tried Eagle many times and just get frustrated with it; I'm too used to AD, but I don't do nearly enough side work to justify purchase of an AD licence for myself.

Two good alternatives to consider:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-designer-pricing/msg599972/#msg599972

people are interested in circuitstudio because all they need is schematic/ pcb. no interest in fpga , the tasking tools , the simulator or the vault or some advanced things like flex , xnets and other things

circuitstudio is perfect for that.

That is also what altium sees. they need a 'cheaper version' of their flagship product.

Isn't it funny how Altium keep going round in circles. They sold their Traxmaker software in the mid 1990's to a company in the USA who renamed it Circuit Maker. They integrated this with their own schematic capture software & worked hard at making it quite a good low to medium end package.

Altium then bought Circuit Maker out in the late 1990's & sold it side by side with AD for several years. Then they culled it. Then Altium significantly reduced the price of AD to pull in more cost sensitive users. Then Altium put the price of AD up.

Then Altium announce Circuit Studio ................ which is performing much the same task & is being directed at the same market as their original Circuit Maker software aka ~ year 2000.

Now, 15 years later, Altium are back at first base.

A bit like moving their office from Australia to the USA, then back to Australia, then to China & now back to the USA.

I'm surprised they are still in business. At the top, they are definitely brain dead.

Oh, I forgot to mention Altium buying out PCAD in the early 2000's. They ran with that software until 2006 when they culled it. For those of us who used PCAD, it was definitely a much better product in the year 2000 than Altium/Protel ever was.

Altium culled the wrong software!

With Nick Martin ejected from the Altium Board, things should be improving. Let's see what else Altium can stuff up over the next couple of years.

[ludzinc]

Why are you people that already have AD trying this out?  Do you expect a BETTER tool or something?

OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED...  They're not going to give away everything in AD in CircuitStudio, so there ARE going to be things missing... duh.

I wanted to compare CS to AD, so see:

1.  How different the work flows are so I can use AD at work CS (or rather CM!) at home
2.  See if I can save money buying CS licences for Graduates to use, and having less AD licences for the draftsmen
3.  See if my existing home projects which I want to open source, can be edited in CS.  The *assumption* is the CM and CS will both do things the same way... and I may be very wrong there.

Most of my comments were observations of the differences between CS and AD, not bitches.  BUT the lack of keyboard shortcuts for the high activity actions just makes for bad software overall.

[DerekG]

BUT the lack of keyboard shortcuts for the high activity actions just makes for bad software overall.

I believe there are a few keyboards where you can store a pile of key sequences to a single key. There are also a few software programs that will allocate a key sequence to a particular key. Some of these software programs also "memorises" the code that sits behind icons & allows you to allocate that code (or an entire code sequence) to a specific key on your keyboard.

Has anyone used any of the above methods with AD or with other software?

[ludzinc]

AD let's you edit the shortcuts that are there. For example '*' on my laptop needs me to push Fn first.

So I changed it to sonething else that works for me.

CS doesn't appear to let you edit shortcuts, and what I think is worse is that 'P' for Pkace activates a ribbon tab.

A macro that could be bound to a key that hits a button on the ribbon would be very handy!

[Rigby]

If the ribbon in CS works like it does in office, pressing and releasing the ALT key will show you the key combos for the ribbon.

[daedalus]

Has anyone figured out how to save a step model of a board out of CircuitStudio?

[Batang]

Upgrade to Altium Designer.

[daedalus]

Upgrade to Altium Designer.

yeah, thanks for that, real helpful.

On another note, anyone having issues accessing vault with the credentials included in the trial? mine stopped working yesterday.

[VEGETA]

I don't know about the price of this thing yet. What is the cheapest license price of it?

BTW, what happened to CicuitMaker? so much time without news about it.

[DerekG]

I don't know about the price of this thing yet. What is the cheapest license price of it?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-circuit-studio/msg598018/#msg598018

BTW, what happened to CicuitMaker? so much time without news about it.

My opinion is that is is pretty much dead now that Altium have done this deal with Farnell. However, I could be wrong of course.

[Spikee]

My 2 cents:

Altium / Element 14 states:
"Professional Tools for Professionals
Whether you design PCBs frequently or not, you need pro-grade tools you can count on, without the steep learning curve or having to re-learn how to use them each time there's a new project. CircuitStudio has powerful and professional capabilities for schematic capture, PCB layout and routing, and 3D viewing and editing. So go ahead, tell it like it is and call yourself a PCB design professional."

Why is there then:
-no compatibility between AD and CS pcb files
-no ability to export 3d file of board (needed by enclosure designer)

With those two things it would be an instant success. Without those two your market has shrinked to a very small size of people who earn money by making ciruit boards and need a professional tool but they do not need backwards compatibility and they do not need to design enclosures for their products (or they do this by manually making a 3d file in some kind of cad program).

-1 Customer here

--
AD is still to expensive for most and CS does not fill that gap by the limitations it has.
Element 14 should not have accepted that compromise from Altium.

[DerekG]

Why is there then:
-no compatibility between AD and CS pcb files

I understand the next full release of AD will open Circuit Studio files. From the information I currently have to hand, I do not believe that there will be a backward conversion from AD to Circuit Studio though.

Element 14 should not have accepted that compromise from Altium.

Farnell actually approached Altium when they heard CircuitMaker was to be released. In the deal, Altium agreed to supply a more powerful product exclusively to Farnell than their existing EAGLE offering.

[Spikee]

...

I understand the next full release of AD will open Circuit Studio files. From the information I currently have to hand, I do not believe that there will be a backward conversion from AD to Circuit Studio though.

What will happen is:
Legit CS license , trial/pirated AD15 and use it just for converting the files and outputting your 3D step of the board.

Farnell actually approached Altium when they heard CircuitMaker was to be released. In the deal, Altium agreed to supply a more powerful product exclusively to Farnell than their existing EAGLE offering.

Still this limitation makes  CS standalone pretty much useless for contractors and the like who need to provide AD compatible files to the client.

[daedalus]

Just a warning for anyone else considering CS. The 1 year subscription option farnell have been offering cannot be used without first having bought a standalone copy. So that makes the minimum spend $3000 to get CS. Now that has been cleared up I'm going to stop wasting my time on it, shame really.

[luky315]

I tried it out (14 days trial):
First I changed the horrible "50 shades of blue" PCB color scheme to a more traditional "red to blue".
The most annoying thing is that they changed / disabled the shortcuts. No "p-p" to add a new part, you now need multiple clicks to start routing etc.... (Altium Designer users should know what i mean...)
And I am missing the IPC compliant Footprint wizard.
But I think that Circuit Studio is great for its price (~1/3 of the "full" Version).

[RF-Tech]

Has the price really been reduced to $495.00???

http://www.newark.com/altium/11-004-15-1-e/circuitstudio-subscription/dp/29Y9076

-S

[RF-Tech]

Nope - should have known better.

[BloodyCactus]

oh so its 3k to buy into, then 500 per year 'renewal' ? ouch

[DerekG]

oh so its 3k to buy into, then 500 per year 'renewal' ? ouch

Just under $3K to purchase an infinite licence with 12 months support.

You then pay ~$500 per year if you want ongoing support.

[Zad]

Jeez, they really aren't on this planet are they?

[Mechatrommer]

why this and that CM thread keep popping out? i cant keep it any longer... may i suggest to altium so they can make another offering? its called Studio Maker Altium callsign SM, its job is to make studio in the cloud.

[daedalus]

route a few parts on a pcb, then try and move the parts and traces on the board. Apparently "moving several tracks" is a feature professional board designers wont ever need

(the error "move several tracks not available" seems pretty deliberate)

[Spikee]

Farnell sent me a email regarding the evaluation. I have told them that the CS package is to stripped down from AD to even be better than Eagle.
I also sent him the url to this topic. I recommend everybody that uses the evaluation version of CS to give their honest opinion to Farnell/Altium.

Without feedback they will not have the ability to improve the product.

I was really hoping that CS would become a affordable tool that professionals can use. This is sadly not the case.

[BloodyCactus]

oh so its 3k to buy into, then 500 per year 'renewal' ? ouch

Just under $3K to purchase an infinite licence with 12 months support.

You then pay ~$500 per year if you want ongoing support.

aah ok, but that 'support' is updates, no support, no updates correct? thats how I read it.

[daedalus]

the $500 a year is also needed to use vault, the cloud based parts library. No idea what happens to designs using vault parts if you go off subscription.

Personally I think if we are adopting a beta quality tool, we should be able to buy it on subscription only (no perpetual seat). If Altium really believe in their product, then they will make their $3k over the next 6 years, and probably get AD sales should we upgrade. If the bugs don't get fixed, we are only out $500. There is no way right now I can gamble $3k on it getting fixed

On constructive criticism, it would cost Altium nothing to offer a trade in deal, where you can swap your CS seat for $3k off the purchase of AD. That would make CS much more of a stepping stone then it is at the moment, drive AD sales, and reduce the difficulty of buying CS for your current needs vs AD for your future needs.

[Rigby]

Personally I think if we are adopting a beta quality tool, we should be able to buy it on subscription only (no perpetual seat).  If Altium really believe in their product, then they will make their $3k over the next 6 years, and probably get AD sales should we upgrade.

This is exactly why it costs $3k per seat up front.  They do not believe in it, as it is not an established revenue model.  It is an expensive experiment and they aren't going to even CONSIDER serious improvement work on the application until it has proven its worth by paying for its own development a few dozen times over.

[EEVblog]

http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-73745

US$3368.42
+
US$557.65 / year subscription

Are they serious?

[IconicPCB]

Ohh come on.. US$3368.42 is for the product AND one year subscription.

Anyway US$3368.42 is barely worth anything anyway in real AUD.

[Batang]

Here in Malaysia Element14 has the prices as follows:

1) ALTIUM CIRCUITSTUDIO SUBSCRIPTION - STANDALONE - Price: RM1,752.60 (approx AUD620)

2) ALTIUM CIRCUITSTUDIO COMMERCIAL LICENSE+1YR SUB - Price: RM10,586.46 (approx AUD3,750)


Cheers

[DerekG]

According to this element 14 press release, Circuit Studio will support 3D:

"The benefits for the users will be based on straight-forward schematic capture and project management tools as well as a powerful PCB design engine that supports 3D PCB editing".

http://www.element14.com/community/message/131476/l/altium-and-element14-partner-to-distribute-new-pcb-design-tool-circuitstudio#131476

And according to the post in the element 14 forum "you can open/change/save the libs and the schematics of an Altium Designer Project but the PCB has an other format".

A later post in that forum states that "I was able to successfully export my Altium Designer 14.3 PcbDoc file to a P-CAD ASCII format, open it in Eagle and save it to brd format, then import it into CS".

http://www.element14.com/community/message/140846/l/re-can-circuitstudio-work-with-existing-altium-designer-projects#140846

And according to this post in the element 14 forum, the AD user will continue with his AD subscription as Circuit Studio does not offer all the shortcuts that speeds up his design time.

http://www.element14.com/community/message/140043/l/circuitstudio--first-impressions#140043

[Wilksey]

It does support 3D, it doesn't appear to be able to export though.

The best option I can see is to take a screen grab of the 3D window, but that will just give you image data rather than any useful CAD data.

The new ribbon menu is quite refreshing, certainly when going back to AD15 and seeing the myriad of menu items, but I guess they are there for a good reason, took a while to navigate through it all when I first started using AD!

I would rather pay for the platinum version of Labcenters' Proteus suite rather than some obscure version of AD, the only thing I can see going for it is the ribbon, but it's more of a visual and navigation nicety than necessity really.

[DerekG]

I would rather pay for the platinum version of Labcenters' Proteus suite rather than ...... AD

I fully agree. Proteus is my favourite design suite. It is logical, powerful, mature & pretty much bug free. I actually consider it much better value for the majority of users over Altium Designer.

I'm surprised that so many people complain about the cost of Altium when there are two other excellent packages available for a fraction of the cost - Proteus & DipTrace (which leaped ahead last year with the release of 2.4).

I use all 3 packages for work. You rarely find a bug in Proteus & if you do, it is normally fixed within a month.

I remember the full screen scrolling problem in Protel in 1996. It was still NOT fixed by Altium in 2007. That's 11 years. Unfortunately that's par-for-the-course with Altium.

ST MicroElectronics (STM) also think that Proteus is a pretty good design platform.

Their chief engineer (Gael Salles) even had this to say about Proteus:

"We use the Proteus suite regularly and we really appreciate both the simple user interface and the number of features. When we have faced a limit or a problem, the support response has always been fast and focused. Proteus is a good solution for reasonably complex design."

http://www.labcenter.com/other/feedback.cfm

[Lukas]

Just for refrence: I've been to the 'embedded world' trade show this week and asked a guy from altium about circuitmaker/circuitstudio. His answer: sorry, can't tell you anything, please go to farnell. They've had no clue either...

[Spikee]

I have a CM beta invite. They wanted me to sign nda etc
To much work tbh...

[DerekG]

I have a CM beta invite. They wanted me to sign nda etc
To much work tbh...

Sounds like CircuitMaker has not been well received & Altium want to mitigate any further public criticism of their new product.

More & more looking like Altium will not stick with CircuitMaker into the medium/longer term.

Especially since they have now entered the Circuit Studio agreement with Farnell (that costs real dollars).

Inside info is that CadSoft Computer GmbH has been advised by Newark Corporation that they must financially stand on their own two feet. Story is that staff cuts at EAGLE are now on the cards. I wonder where this will leave future EAGLE development?

[miguelvp]

Too much conjecture about CM, they are soon to be in beta 2

I have not seen any indication that "Altium will not stick with CircuitMaker into the medium/longer term"

[Bud]

http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-73745

US$3368.42

And for this price they did not include a Gerber viewer ??
 

Their assumption is one can enjoy viewing the generated Gerbers in text mode I guess.

[skipjackrc4]

I wonder where this will leave future EAGLE development?

I wouldn't be too concerned with future EAGLE development, since it's been stuck in the mid-90's for the past twenty years.

[DerekG]

I wouldn't be too concerned with future EAGLE development, since it's been stuck in the mid-90's for the past twenty years.

I suspect this is why Farnell approached Altium to develop & supply them exclusively the new Circuit Studio software.

[Bud]

Someone please convince me this is a feature and not a bug. I am trying to connect points A and B with a wire, and it removes the junction at  the A point and changes to unconnected crossover to point B !
 
Tried holding Shift/Alt/Ctrl when placing the A->B wire, seems there  is no way in damn thing to make an X- junction

Cant believe this sh!t...


EDIT: ...unless you do it as R1/R2/R3 common connection shows, i.e. two T-junctions, but this is ridiculous

[Rigby]

I believe that 'X' junctions are bad form, and are to be avoided in schematics.  This is why Altium doesn't like them.

[RF-Tech]

Bud, I know that in Altium there is an option under: dxp\preferences\schematic\general - in the options area it has: 'break wires at autojunction', you can check or uncheck this to see if fixes your problem - but not having used circuit studio I don't know if they are using the same features.
-S

[free_electron]

Cant believe this sh!t...

basic drafting rules

- crossing lines NEVER connect
- T junctions ALWAYS connect

simple.. no ?

altium can convert cross junctions to  t junctions but only does so when opening a file in an older format.

i'm hoping they will remove the free floating 'dot' altogether form the program. that will force people to draw clean schematics.

[DerekG]

basic drafting rules
- crossing lines NEVER connect
- T junctions ALWAYS connect

Yes, this is clearly set down in the international drafting standard & should be adhered to by all serious/professional users. In this way, the schematics are clearly understood by all readers, no matter what country they reside in.

[IconicPCB]

"I" before "E" except after "C"?

We have all been taught the rule, but Richard Lederer has compiled a list of 144 exceptions in his book Adventures of a Verbifore. When in doubt about the spelling of a word, go to a dictionary.

[Bud]

IconicPCB, Can you decipher your cryptic message?

[Bud]

in Altium there is an option under: dxp\preferences\schematic\general - in the options area it has: 'break wires at autojunction'

No such option in CS. Also there is no menu anymore, they changed to stupid ribbon which only takes screen real estate, brings confusion and makes things hard to find.

EDIT: And the ribbon looks ugly... childish color scheme and crude graphics, as if they were trying to mimic Android Lollipop 

[Bud]

I believe that 'X' junctions are bad form, and are to be avoided in schematics.  This is why Altium doesn't like them.

I do not think this is true, there was no problem whatsoever with X junctions in Altium (last checked 2-3 years ago).
This is how wiring looked in Altium and how it looks now imported into CS. Who the hell wants arcs at wire crossovers? To me it makes schematic cluttered and looking archaic as if it was drawn 70 years ago.

[IconicPCB]

Bud
You have deciphered the message.

There are rules and then there is how You like it...  in my opinion... as was echoed so many times in the past.

[ElektroQuark]

... this is clearly set down in the international drafting standard & should be adhered to by all serious/professional users...

Derek,

Can you provide a link or reference? I would like to have that document. Thank you.

[ajb]

Someone please convince me this is a feature and not a bug. I am trying to connect points A and B with a wire, and it removes the junction at  the A point and changes to unconnected crossover to point B !

It's probably a feature to avoid Altium's unreliable handling of 4-way junctions.  It's been known to spontaneously convert crossover junctions to unconnected crossovers.  Bit me once when working with a schematic drawn by someone else, and all the sudden several nets were broken.

I'd say preventing crossover junctions entirely is vastly preferable to allowing crossover junctions that spontaneously disappear.

[Rigby]

I believe that 'X' junctions are bad form, and are to be avoided in schematics.  This is why Altium doesn't like them.

I do not think this is true, there was no problem whatsoever with X junctions in Altium (last checked 2-3 years ago).
This is how wiring looked in Altium and how it looks now imported into CS. Who the hell wants arcs at wire crossovers? To me it makes schematic cluttered and looking archaic as if it was drawn 70 years ago.

Oh, I thought you meant an actual point where 4 wires connect electrically with the junction.

You're talking about just drawing them over each other.  That's different.  Earlier in the thread... I think it was this thread... Someone listed the preference location to change it from the jumps to non-jumps.  It's around somewhere.

[Bud]

Do you guys think Altium will jack up CS price every year by a few hundred $$ as they do it for Altium Designer ?

[george graves]

Do you guys think Altium will jack up CS price every year by a few hundred $$ as they do it for Altium Designer ?

No way.  Lower it each year...or go with the subscription model everyone is talking about.

[DerekG]

... this is clearly set down in the international drafting standard & should be adhered to by all serious/professional users...

Derek,

Can you provide a link or reference? I would like to have that document. Thank you.

The Standard is IEC60617, but the annual subscription is 600 Swiss Franks. Purchasers must sign a non-disclosure agreement & every copy purchased contains a watermark with the name of the purchaser on every page.

http://std.iec.ch/iec60617

But here is a public explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_diagram

Note that Circuit Schematics are considered as a collection of CAD Symbols.

[BloodyCactus]

Do you guys think Altium will jack up CS price every year by a few hundred $$ as they do it for Altium Designer ?

No way.  Lower it each year...or go with the subscription model everyone is talking about.

what track record can you point to that show this is what altium do with their pricing?

Right? It goes UP every year, not down.

so once your 11 months into your 12 month support sub, suddenly next year it goes from 500 to 800... then 11 months later its 1200, then 11 months later its 1500.

I have NO faith it would remain at 500.

[ElektroQuark]

... this is clearly set down in the international drafting standard & should be adhered to by all serious/professional users...

Derek,

Can you provide a link or reference? I would like to have that document. Thank you.

The Standard is IEC60617, but the annual subscription is 600 Swiss Franks. Purchasers must sign a non-disclosure agreement & every copy purchased contains a watermark with the name of the purchaser on every page.

http://std.iec.ch/iec60617

But here is a public explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_diagram

Note that Circuit Schematics are considered as a collection of CAD Symbols.

Thank you.

[Chipguy]

Hi !

I am an Eagle user since 1990. In fact I still have the 3 pcs 5.25" 360kByte discs with Eagle 2.0 on it.

Since a few years Eagle development seems to have got stuck in the past. There is no real 3D integration.
The Eagle Layout Editor can't even flip the board so you get the bottom layer first. And of course this also means you cant do anything 3D in the layout like 3 axis rotation.

For those who don't know, Cadsoft's aim was to make an "Easy usable graphical layout editor", that's what the "E.A.G.L.E." in german actually stands for "Einfach Anzuwendender Grafischer Layout Editor". However a 3D integration won't make the software harder to use since you are not forced to place or edit any 3D objects. It could still be made so you won't have to bother with them.

So eventually I had to switch to Altium Designer since late 2013, a decision I don't regret.
The 3D integration in this could be much better, but it is usable. Placing object by entering numbers is a bit daft, but it works.

Farnell seems to have figured out that only supporting Cadsoft Eagle is not the future and they started to talk to other players in the market who are not depending on the goodwill of a handful coders who are heading towards their pensionists age. New competition like free KiCad won't make it easier for them. And Cadsoft survival will depend on bringing Eagle into the 3D makerworld or not.

We shall see.

[DerekG]

Since a few years Eagle development seems to have got stuck in the past.

Unfortunately this is true. Once a world leader in this field, Cadsoft has been falling behind at an ever increasing rate. Farnell purchased CadSoft Computer GmbH in September 2009 for the purpose of integrating the Farnell/element 14 component database into the CAD software. This was to drive sales of electronic components which were hit pretty hard after the 2008 GFC.

Farnell seems to have figured out that only supporting Cadsoft Eagle is not the future

Cadsoft has not performed well since 2010. Sales have been down & profits dipped this past year such that Farnell formed the opinion that it should no longer be their flagship CAD offering.

and they started to talk to other players in the market

Farnell were left with no choice. They have tried for 4 years now to push around the management of Cadsoft to get improvements in the EAGLE offering ............ with little success.

a handful coders who are heading towards their pensionists age.

You have hit the nail on the head. There has been no substantial new blood added to their coding team since the takeover in 2009. The existing coders at Cadsoft are in fact now all pretty close to retiring.

Cadsoft survival will depend on bringing Eagle into the 3D makerworld or not.

3D aside, it may already be too late.

Farnell's management are pretty unhappy with the lack of EAGLE development since they took over the reins. They have tried several initiatives to force Cadsoft to move into the 21st century, but unfortunately none of the movers & shakers on the board are coders, which means they can pretty easily have the wool pulled over their eyes.

In the end they were forced to look elsewhere for this expertise. They saw a glimmer of hope when Altium announced CircuitMaker .............. and put a proposal to Altium that Altium could hardly resist.

The result is Circuit Studio. Yes, it is rather green around the edges & has some compatibility problems with AD, but they have done a pretty good job in just 6 months.

Give it another 6 months & users will find that Circuit Studio will be improved substantially.

[Chipguy]

The problem I have with Circuit Studio is that the price seems to be around 2500 EUR/USD.

Even for a smaller company that is a lot of money.
For private use that's already too much. You need a price that has only 3 digits or maybe something starting with a "1" and having 4 digits.

It seems that Fartnell has now another problem: One is "Cheap but useless" (to many people), the other one "Useful but too expensive"
I got 2 Eagle versions, one for work and one for personal/private use and I am not able to just purchase Circuit Studio or Altium Designer (around 5600 EUR) for private use.

However I have not updated to Eagle 7.x, not in Work, nor private.
They really thought that prople are going to buy a new version when the only added feature was a much more restricted license system ?!? 
No wonder the sales go down.

After a huge storm of complains (including mine) they went back to the old license system in 7.1 but to me the damage to their reputation was already done. As a loyal customer and user since 25 years now I really felt treated like garbage.
The number of unlicensed Eagle installations must have plummeted since there are usable free tools out there like KiCAD, because one thing is clear: Open source software and free software projects have helped to decrease the illegal use of commecial software but also decreased the market share of the big players. Both to me are good things.

[djsb]

I keep getting emails off my local Altium reseller asking me do I want to buy a new license. Never again is the answer to that question. I was under the impression that Altium was about to bring out a low cost/free version of their software (CircuitMaker) but I'm still waiting for the invitation to download a beta version. I've had a quick look at a video on youtube done by Fedevel about CircuitStudio and I tried to find the price just out of curiosity. I'm afraid I'm going to stick with my perpetual License for AD release 10 and do the rest of my work on the ever improving KiCAD (new stable release in a couple of months).

[DerekG]

The problem I have with Circuit Studio is that the price seems to be around 2500 EUR/USD.

Almost US$3000 actually.
Some years ago, Altium substantially reduced the price of AD in the hope of selling lots more licences. This new methodology did not work out as expected & so Altium have increased their price of AD significantly over the past couple of years. Circuit Studio is now Altium's new attempt to attract this lower end market. I believe this will be much more successful than CircuitMaker, so much so that CircuitMaker will go nowhere. Time will tell of course.

Even for a smaller company that is a lot of money.
For private use that's already too much. You need a price that has only 3 digits or maybe something starting with a "1" and having 4 digits.

Take a look at DipTrace & Proteus. Both are much more powerful than KiCAD.

It seems that Farnell has now another problem: One is "Cheap but useless" (to many people), the other one "Useful but too expensive"

EAGLE is certainly not useless. It has many thousands of users. The problem for Cadsoft is that their users are like their coders. They are both getting older & closing in on retirement.

New board designers are now very well informed via the internet. They now compare & evaluate several pcb design programs & almost invariably they do not choose EAGLE. The end result is that EAGLE's user base is shrinking.

Once engineers become aware of this, the last thing they want to do is to jump aboard a sinking ship.

I got 2 Eagle versions, one for work and one for personal/private use and I am not able to just purchase Circuit Studio or Altium Designer (around 5600 EUR) for private use.
They really thought that people are going to buy a new version when the only added feature was a much more restricted license system ?!? 
No wonder the sales go down.
After a huge storm of complains (including mine) they went back to the old license system in 7.1 but to me the damage to their reputation was already done. As a loyal customer and user since 25 years now I really felt treated like garbage.

Don't think that Altium treats its customers any better. Protel 6.7 suffered a problem in ver 2.8 (released in 1996) with the RHS scroll when in full screen mode. Altium's sales department promised that is was fixed in AD 6.7 in 2006 (10 years later). It was not.

Then AD 6.9 suffered a serious problem with the renditioning of the layers. The only way to actually "see" what would be in your Gerbers was to check everything in single layer layer mode.

Whilst I believe that Protel/Altium led the field by a large margin (in the lower end price range) in the 1990's up to about 2005, I do not believe this is currently the case for new users who must pay for a full subscription price first up. There are now a number of great alternatives that have forced Altium to once again look at a lower cost offering (ie Circuit Studio).

[up8051]

The main problem for me is that the CircutCtudio  does not have  migration path from old Protel products :
Autotrax 1.61 (DOS version)
Protel for Windows
Protel Design Explorer 99Se

[DerekG]

The main problem for me is that the CircutCtudio  does not have  migration path from old Protel products :
Autotrax 1.61 (DOS version)
Protel for Windows
Protel Design Explorer 99Se

You can open Autotrax (DOS) files in PFW & Protel 99SE.
I think Protel 99SE will allow you use a PCAD ASCII export filter. I no longer have it loaded, so you will need to check this.
You can then read the PCAD file into EAGLE (download the free version). Convert the file to an EAGLE .brd file.
You can now open the .brd file in Circuit Studio.

........... or (I have it on good authority) you can wait another 6 months & several more import filters will be offered in Circuit Studio. Some of these will be for the previous Protel formats.

[DerekG]

I have just received (by email) the latest CircuitMaker Newsletter.

You can read it at this weblink:
http://go.altium.com/index.php/email/emailWebview?mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRolv6nKce%2FhmjTEU5z17OktXKW3hIkz2EFye%2BLIHETpodcMScRrN7HYDBceEJhqyQJxPr3NLdcNydNqRhHlCQ%3D%3D

[Rigby]

The main problem for me is that the CircutCtudio  does not have  migration path from old Protel products :
Autotrax 1.61 (DOS version)
Protel for Windows
Protel Design Explorer 99Se

I'm pretty sure you can choose to install Protel importers when you install CircuitMaker.  I have a friend in the beta.

[fuubar67]

I was looking at CS, I have an opportunity to start with a new PCB system from ground up, but the budget is tight.
CS was an option, but I have to agree that it was gutted too much for 3K price point.

I have to thank you for pointing me to Proteus, I have wasted enough time on CS.

After talking to a local sales from Altium, the guys appear to have grown very arrogant and no longer care about supporting the mid range contractors. 

[DerekG]

CS was an option, but I have to agree that it was gutted too much for 3K price point.

I have to thank you for pointing me to Proteus, I have wasted enough time on CS.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. Yes, Proteus is great software at a good price. I use it regularly.

DipTrace is another good package too. I'm spending quite a bit of time with the developer's forum to improve it, particularly with shortcuts to narrow the advantage Altium has.

After talking to a local sales from Altium, the guys appear to have grown very arrogant and no longer care about supporting the mid range contractors. 

You have hit the nail on the head. Now you know why I have regularly written:

"I dislike Altium the software & I dislike Altium the Company even more."

I believe it is a culture that was nurtured by Nick Martin, the founder of Protel. He was arrogant when I met him at an Altium Seminar in Adelaide in ~2000. His arrogance has rubbed off onto others at Altium over the years.

Nick has now left the company but I see that his arrogance remains with those who are left.

[fuubar67]

Thank you, I will have a look at the DipTrace. I am always happy to support an enthusiastic new company.

How well does DipTrace support differential pair length matching and impedance controlled design?

[Wilksey]

It doesn't...yet, apparently in the next release there will be a high speed "toolbox" if you will.  Eagle does a fairly good job at this, even Proteus doesn't support it, KiCAD seems to me a bit mediocre when it comes to it's "RF Toolbox" and it isn't available under OpenGL rendering, I think they are improving that also.

I don't know if CS has high speed design?

[fuubar67]

Yep they do have differential routing, I will have to evaluate it, see if they skimped on that too.

[DerekG]

How well does DipTrace support differential pair length matching and impedance controlled design?

Unfortunately we have to wait until the new release for the full features of this. However, if you simply rest your mouse over the track, a pop up dialog box gives you the net name, the track width & the total track length.

At this stage it is envisaged that the next release will probably be around July/August 2015.

[cwalex]

I have a CM beta invite. They wanted me to sign nda etc
To much work tbh...

Hi Spikee,

Do you know if Altium will let you give the invite to someone else? I'm interested in trying out the beta.

[snoopy]

Don't know if this has been posted but there is an overview of Circuit Studio on youtube



cheers

[Wilksey]

Yeah, I have a version for "testing" and the deal breaker for me at the moment is that it doesn't cross support the PCB files with AD.

As soon as I saw that it didn't support that I kind of gave up on it, I know that AD is supposed to be updated to support CS, so i'm waiting patiently....

[Rigby]

Yeah, I have a version for "testing" and the deal breaker for me at the moment is that it doesn't cross support the PCB files with AD.

As soon as I saw that it didn't support that I kind of gave up on it, I know that AD is supposed to be updated to support CS, so i'm waiting patiently....

It was mentioned earlier that AD can open CS files without problem.  The opposite will probably never be true without 3rd party conversion.

[daedalus]

Just a quick heads up, farnell are sending out unsolicited 15% off discounts to anyone who contacted them about CircuitStudio

[Zbig]

Just a quick heads up, farnell are sending out unsolicited 15% off discounts to anyone who contacted them about CircuitStudio

Awesome, that changes everything. Now, I'll definitely take the plunge! Oh, wait... nope - still 2.5 my month's worth of salary. And I'm not on a minimum wage, either.

Don't take it personally, daedalus. Just wanted to stress out there are still non-third-world countries out there, where that pricing doesn't make any kind of sense, whatsoever. For me, CS is just as good as dead.

[Christopher]

For the package feeling rushed, with a different, crappier,  altium knockoff,  the price is too much.

What they should have done was keep it the same as Altium with all the fpga simulation and the other useless junk, pro features 90% of people don't use, and call it altium basic. Same file formats. Price of about 800 quid and it would fly off the shelf and allow them to fix the bugs for a year or so Then they could increase the price.

Problem altium are having is they are segmenting their market by having too many products.  That's bad news all round

[Icchan]

I'm appalled that the program was released for sale in this condition. Usability problems are the most obvious. All the random crashes and missing options and settings that really should be there so that you could make the program behave the way you find most useful... those are the problems in my view.

Even library editor crashes when I open it and some times the program crashes when i try to close it... without any reason :/

They're idiots for giving you 14 days of trial and expect people to jump to it when the program is multi thousand dollar tool...

[DerekG]

I'm appalled that the program was released for sale in this condition.

There is immense pressure on the programmers to bring Circuit Studio up to speed quickly. Remember, CS was only hatched as a result of an approach by Farnell in October 2014. It has come this far in less than 6 months which is a pretty good effort.

Over the next 12 months you will see many improvements.

[jmarkwolf]

I'm appalled that the program was released for sale in this condition.

There is immense pressure on the programmers to bring Circuit Studio up to speed quickly. Remember, CS was only hatched as a result of an approach by Farnell in October 2014. It has come this far in less than 6 months which is a pretty good effort.

Over the next 12 months you will see many improvements.

Agreed.

With 15% off, and you figure the mandatory first year support at $500, that puts the software at about $2000, for 95% of everything I use on the "full-boat" Altium everyday at work.

Once they add an integrated Gerber viewer and PcbDoc support, which I suspect is soon to follow, I'm good.

Isn't the full version of Eagle almost $2000?

I'd much rather plunk my money down an CS than Eagle.

[Rigby]

If CS supports PcbDoc, then many company will move from AD to CS, because most designers don't to anything beyond the capability of CS.

It doesn't.  CS can't open AD design files natively, last I checked.  The opposite is true.

Altium definitely don't want users to go heterogeneous.

They do, though, but only in one direction.  The envision a situation where the experienced users are running AD, and the junior engineers are running CS.  They want the AD users to be able to open and modify designs created in CS.  This is to allow juniors to work in CS for less cost per seat, but still be doing their work in a tool that the senior engineers can use.

[Icchan]

With 15% off, and you figure the mandatory first year support at $500, that puts the software at about $2000, for 95% of everything I use on the "full-boat" Altium everyday at work.

Once they add an integrated Gerber viewer and PcbDoc support, which I suspect is soon to follow, I'm good.

Isn't the full version of Eagle almost $2000?

I'd much rather plunk my money down an CS than Eagle.

Full Eagle license with auto-router is $1640 but since auto-router is not very useful (especially the Eagle one), you would buy it without it and that makes $1145. Which is less than half of the €2631 they're asking of the Circuit Studio at Element14 (including that subsription). And mind you, Dollar and Euro are in unity and Euro will go below Dollar in short time.

My gripe is that with promises of a great program in the future, one takes a risk when laying down that €2500+ for the Circuit Studio. And if you need a program that can do the job right now and not a year from now, it's not for you. Unless you like show stopping bugs and random crashes that will corrupt your data (happened to me when testing the program the other day, lost all the work done... luckily only a testing circuit and nothing important).

There are other options though... For example, DipTrace is basically a "beefed up version" of Eagle (all the features of Eagle and more, though few caveats). And since the full suite of DipTrace is only $895, I'm better off comparing what Circuit Studio brings over DipTrace with the price difference, and it's currently not much.

So it's a though call when you need the software _now_ to increase your productivity and you're on a budget constraint that doesn't warrant for a program that's 2500€ AND very incomplete and unstable.

Maybe in a year Circuit Studio will be a real thing (if they do update it very frequently), but until then it's not something one want's to use to increase productivity in a project that has time schedule and budget considerations.

And I have not heard or been offered anything relating to 15% off of Circuit Studio, so I'm basing my opinion on the state of the program and the full price.

[jmarkwolf]

Full Eagle license with auto-router is $1640 but since auto-router is not very useful (especially the Eagle one), you would buy it without it and that makes $1145. Which is less than half of the €2631 they're asking of the Circuit Studio at Element14 (including that subsription). And mind you, Dollar and Euro are in unity and Euro will go below Dollar in short time.

My gripe is that with promises of a great program in the future, one takes a risk when laying down that €2500+ for the Circuit Studio. And if you need a program that can do the job right now and not a year from now, it's not for you. Unless you like show stopping bugs and random crashes that will corrupt your data (happened to me when testing the program the other day, lost all the work done... luckily only a testing circuit and nothing important).

There are other options though... For example, DipTrace is basically a "beefed up version" of Eagle (all the features of Eagle and more, though few caveats). And since the full suite of DipTrace is only $895, I'm better off comparing what Circuit Studio brings over DipTrace with the price difference, and it's currently not much.

So it's a though call when you need the software _now_ to increase your productivity and you're on a budget constraint that doesn't warrant for a program that's 2500€ AND very incomplete and unstable.

Maybe in a year Circuit Studio will be a real thing (if they do update it very frequently), but until then it's not something one want's to use to increase productivity in a project that has time schedule and budget considerations.

And I have not heard or been offered anything relating to 15% off of Circuit Studio, so I'm basing my opinion on the state of the program and the full price.

Hi Icchan

All valid points, and I considered delaying my purchase for some of those same reasons. But in the end I was able to justify the purchase/gamble, considering the discounts.

I didn't experience any bugs nor crashes in my eval, but admittedly didn't do an end-to-end exercise. It loaded current Altium schematics and libraries without hitch, and I was able to edit the files and generate reports, etc., although I had to jump through some hoops to translate PcbDocs.

I've evaluated Diptrace, Eagle and others as well, but have been using the commercial versions of Protel/Altium at work for nearly 20 years, plan to do design consulting when I retire in a couple years, am reluctant to change horses mid-stream and decided to take the gamble on Circuit Studio.

Hopefully Newark will make good on their "press" and Circuit Studio will become a good viable tool. If they fix bugs and occasionally add features I can make due with it.

[Lromine]

Hello Everyone, My name is Lawrence Romine, Director of New Business Development, here at Altium in San Diego. I am very pleased to let everyone know that we are now in Beta with v1.1 of CircuitStudio. We have been paying very close attention to the feedback from the evaluators, our initial customers, feedback via e14 support personnel, and social media channels. You guys can all expect to see this version released mid-May. Along with the typical maintenance one should expect for this product, we are adding the capabilities I've listed below to the toolset. Please know your participation in forums like EEVblog greatly assists us in getting the product fine tuned. Here's what's coming:

- Importers Updated - AD10 and older, Protel, PCAD (these are in addition to the Eagle/OrCAD/PADs importers in there now), and yes, that includes AD10 Board files
- Mixed Mode Simulation
- .STEP Export
- DXF Import

Again, we appreciate the dialogue! Keep it coming!

[jmarkwolf]

Hello Everyone, My name is Lawrence Romine, Director of New Business Development, here at Altium in San Diego. I am very pleased to let everyone know that we are now in Beta with v1.1 of CircuitStudio. We have been paying very close attention to the feedback from the evaluators, our initial customers, feedback via e14 support personnel, and social media channels. You guys can all expect to see this version released mid-May. Along with the typical maintenance one should expect for this product, we are adding the capabilities I've listed below to the toolset. Please know your participation in forums like EEVblog greatly assists us in getting the product fine tuned. Here's what's coming:

- Importers Updated - AD10 and older, Protel, PCAD (these are in addition to the Eagle/OrCAD/PADs importers in there now), and yes, that includes AD10 Board files
- Mixed Mode Simulation
- .STEP Export
- DXF Import

Again, we appreciate the dialogue! Keep it coming!

Excellent news, indeed. Go, man go.

[Lromine]

Excellent news, indeed. Go, man go.
[/quote]

We very much appreciate your business and your loyalty to the Altium Brand, Mark!

[DerekG]

My name is Lawrence Romine, Director of New Business Development, here at Altium in San Diego.

Lawrence, it is good to see that Altium is keeping an eye on the comments here on EEVBlog.com

It is a shame that Altium felt it necessary to hassle Dave Jones about his website some time back.

As I'm sure you are aware, Dave's website gets more hits everyday than Altium manage on their own website.

As you Altium's "Director of New Business Development" will you kindly answer the following for us:

Is the development team spending:
A/ more time,
B/ the same amount of time,
C/ less time,
on CircuitMaker than on Circuit Studio?

[Lromine]

Derek, et al, We have quite a large development team and those resources are allocated as needed across all our products.  Also, note that some IP is shared across our product range. So, not really an easy questions to answer. I can only assume that the motivation for your question is because you would like to know when CircuitMaker will be available. We have already announced publicly that CircuitMaker will be in Open Beta (available to anyone and everyone) on May 16th to coincide with the Bay Area Maker Faire

http://blog.circuitmaker.com/#Blogs/The-Road-to-Maker-Faire

[VEGETA]

Lawrence, I have some questions:

1- will CM have offline project storage without the need to share the project If one wants this?

2- if one worked well with CM, will he be good with CS (an AD)? i.e, the same (or close) menus, shortcuts,.... etc?

thanks for your support.

[Lromine]

VEGETA, There does seem to be some misconceptions in the storage area. So, I'm glad you asked. There is no local storage, cloud only. However, this does not mean that you will have to share those designs with anyone. Simply tick the box that says "private", and it is just that, private and not shared nor seen by anyone else in the community. That said, you can, however, set up "teams" of people and share/collaborate on designs with just the people in your team. As and for the consistency from CircuitMaker to CircuitStudio, absolutely yes. It is the same interface and, and therefore, any muscle memory you've developed will definitely be retained. As and for moving to Altium Designer from there, all these products share the Altium DNA. So, things like workflow, project structure, etc and, of course, your libraries and designs definitely do carry over. As well, we've made this easy for you via a credit should you decide to step-up from CircuitStudio to an Altium Designer Board license. That credit is now listed on both our website here http://www.circuitstudio.com/#how-to-buy and the e14 website here http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-73741

[VEGETA]

VEGETA, There does seem to be some misconceptions in the storage area. So, I'm glad you asked. There is no local storage, cloud only. However, this does not mean that you will have to share those designs with anyone. Simply tick the box that says "private", and it is just that, private and not shared nor seen by anyone else in the community. That said, you can, however, set up "teams" of people and share/collaborate on designs with just the people in your team. As and for the consistency from CircuitMaker to CircuitStudio, absolutely yes. It is the same interface and, and therefore, any muscle memory you've developed will definitely be retained. As and for moving to Altium Designer from there, all these products share the Altium DNA. So, things like workflow, project structure, etc and, of course, your libraries and designs definitely do carry over. As well, we've made this easy for you via a credit should you decide to step-up from CircuitStudio to an Altium Designer Board license. That credit is now listed on both our website here http://www.circuitstudio.com/#how-to-buy and the e14 website here http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-73741

Well, thanks! that was a new info there. There was a big misunderstanding by me and others about cloud-only. But I really prefer to have local storage option as it is essential. not always you have a connection and sometimes it is not good. cloud is nice, but local storage is a must in my opinion.

Nice to have that consistency between the 2 as most people who use CM will buy CS if they want to get a pro tool I guess. So, any idea now about the limitation of CM? Can one make a commercial board with it (regardless of it's size or importance)?

thanks.

[DerekG]

So, any idea now about the limitation of CM? Can one make a commercial board with it (regardless of it's size or importance)?

You can find out more in the CircuitMaker thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/circuitmaker-dead/

[miguelvp]

Actually you probably find out more here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/circuit-maker-it-lives!/

Since the beta testers seem to be able to talk about CM now.

[PM33AUD]

I've been giving this software a good run through and figured I'd post some feedback.  I've also been evaluating Pulsonix, and DipTrace

I'm a long-time AD user so maybe that's some bias.  I'm doing commercial work now so I need to purchase my own tools.  AD is so far out of my price range, I can't even consider it.

Circuit Studio is still a bit pricey but my heavens, it's far better than Diptrace which is going to cost me something like 600USD.  Diptrace is not even close to being in the same league in my experience thus far and I guess the pricing ensures that.  The plus with DT is that the team is extremely responsive and that tool will grow quickly, I'm sure.  For me, CS is still roughly worth it, considering the alternatives.  It's also on sale now so that helps.  If they get it under 2k, it's a no-brainer.  Pulsonix has been tough for me.  I've given it it's fair due and I've tried to ignore best I could what I know about AD.  Pulsonix is very nice but it's just not as nice as the AD stuff as far as polish and general usability is concerned.  The 3D is dodgy and a little outdated when compared to CS or AD which is very much integrated.  I also had a bit of trouble with the Pulsonix import process.  If CS wasn't around, I'd say Pulsonix would be my 'AD alternative.' 

CS also has the benefit of being able to handle AD projects, schematics, libraries, and PCBs.  And AD can read all the CS stuffs.  This is nice to know for consulting work where folks are more likely to work in AD.

CS does have a lot of the AD stuff I thought it wouldn't.  I haven't run into any rule limitations thus far for how I normally scope things out.  I do miss my shortcuts but there are shortcuts for nearly everything and just have to relearn (or unlearn!) them.

Anyways, I figured I'd post my thoughts on the software.  It is a *very* good tool.

[jmarkwolf]

Thanks for the post PM33AUD.

My experience parallels yours.

Although I have checked out Diptrace, I had not tested Pulsonix.

I've been using Altium/Protel daily for almost 20 years and was not looking forward to learning a new package when I no longer had access to Altium (retirement/consulting).

Circuit Studio fills the bill nicely for me.

[DerekG]

CS does have a lot of the AD stuff I thought it wouldn't.

Thanks for your comparisons.

Does Circuit Studio miss out on anything (that you would use) that is offered in Altium?

[PM33AUD]

CS does have a lot of the AD stuff I thought it wouldn't.

Thanks for your comparisons.

Does Circuit Studio miss out on anything (that you would use) that is offered in Altium?

Yes, it does.  So far I've missed dxf export, slotted holes (this one actually is a bit baffling why it's missing, to be honest), some handy board insight options, SMD rules (currently in progress on some workarounds), 'Shift-F', rooms (no multichannel PCB rooms), scripted filtering, SVN support, and some KB shortcuts are missing (and the ones that are there are weird... H12, HHH, nothing for move selection commands, no 'jump to', etc..).  Those are the main ones.  All of these have workarounds so haven't slowed me down all that much.  I'm still only 3 weeks in so it's possible I've missed some things.

I haven't done a multichannel PCB design since I've been using CS.  For me, that one is going to hurt the most and by a great margin of pain.  For that, I'd probably go to the local hacker spot which has a commercial copy of AD and just do it on that.

I will also say there are a few things that are there that I originally though were missing.  One example is 'update from PCB libraries' which was an option available from the PCB document in AD.  Now it's only done from the library itself.  In other cases, I think there are some bugs but that's not really anything new to AD folks  .  The documentation says Shift F, which I used a ton in AD, is there but it doesn't work.  I can still do the same things by using the filter window albeit a bit slower.  I am trying to figure out how to get what I call a scripted filter to work in CS... it seems ppl end up hiring me for my ability to do a design then spin off an assembled one-off in a very short time (I love poor planning!).  So when placing SMD components 'manually', I need to be sure there are no mistakes.  I usually copy all RefDes directly from the BOM to the 'InComponent' argument which will highlight everything I need to place for that BOM line.  Since I'd been doing that, I've never made a placement mistake, which is a worry when placing 0402 and 0603 sized parts that have no markings.  Anyways, I'll see if I can figure that one out.

I think some scale back is reasonable considering the price.  I do think some things are silly not to have in any PCB package (the slotted holes one is an eg.).  But all in all, none of these missing items are worth paying 3-4 times what is already really at the limit of my budget.  If they start putting some of this stuff in, it just makes CS better.

[Bud]

Did they still go with the stupid ribbon type GUI which the first trial version had ?

[PM33AUD]

Did they still go with the stupid ribbon type GUI which the first trial version had ?

Yes!  But I hide that ugly monster 98% of the time and just use the shortcuts.  When you hit a shortcut it pops up but when the command is completed it goes back away.  I never used any icons and whatnot in AD either so differences there don't really bother me!

[VEGETA]

So is it worth it to learn CS instead of AD? are there companies that actually bought it and will stick to it? because if someone wants to learn PCB design like myself in the near future, he must know the tools used in the industry he aim for.

[Bud]

Did anyone else receive a 15% discount offer for CM from A ?

[PM33AUD]

So is it worth it to learn CS instead of AD? are there companies that actually bought it and will stick to it? because if someone wants to learn PCB design like myself in the near future, he must know the tools used in the industry he aim for.

I think if you learn CS, you will have no problems with AD.  That's definitely not the issue.  Will it be around for awhile?  I don't know.  I am still in evaluation of CS and this is one of my concerns.  I tried asking Newark what the deal was and if they had any sales figures but no go.  It seems they are still playing with pricing which makes me feel they are trying to find the sweet spot and don't know otherwise.  CS is in a weird spot.  It's still too expensive for any hobbyist and any professional has to make the decision of whether or not to risk 1) CS being around 'x' years from now, and 2) whether cross-talk between CS and AD will be maintained.  All it takes is one update to no longer allow import of CS PCB files and then you're not able to consult for anyone who wants the more common 'AD' projects on hand.  If I were paying a consultant, I'd probably request the same considering how new CS is. 

Now for some speculation, which is absolutely just that.     If you were to put CS under ~1.5k USD, I think now you start to dip into the hobbyist sector and surely into 'pro-byists' - folks who do hobby work but at a high level... or who already have jobs and just want nice tools.  At 3k or wherever it is now, you are really ruling out any hobbyists and they will spend the extra time learning/using an inferior tool simply because the cost isn't justified.  You will say things like "Is CS 'N' times better than diptrace?"  "Will it ever save me thousands of dollars?"  "If so, how long would it take to get that savings back?"  "Also, how do I justify maintenance?"  New CAD tools every 5 years is a good rule of thumb.  "Can I support that as well or will I just have to use outdated tools to recoup the initial expense?"  For a hobbyist, you can get a nice 2nd hand T&M rig for that kind of $ and hardware is always easier to justify.  If you're making $ with CS, then the price isn't so bad.  But professionals need to know the tool will be supported and will be compatible with other tools as requested by their clients.  It's also missing some really basic features that make me think they aren't targeting the tool for professional use.  So right now, it's in a weird purgatory of sorts.  Out of reach of the hobbyist 'sinners' and not safe enough for the pro 'saints.'   

The other interesting thing I've noticed on the AD side of things is that it has a ton of stuff many folks will never use.  There is limited upgradability for it.  You don't buy add-ons like you do with other softwares (Cadence, etc...)  This means it's just more expensive because it's all in there.  Before the lower cost option of something like CS, you had to be a professional to justify paying for AD.  Because of AD's very high cost (and it's gone way up from when I remember it being about half what it is now), I'm sure they are worried about CS stealing away some AD customers.  If they make CS cheaper, the switch gets more and more appealing.  So I'm sure part of the decision on pricing (and feature limiting) CS was careful enough not to loose a ton of customers paying 3x what CS costs.  That's a big hit.

What they should have done, in my ignorant and completely over-reaching opinion, is simply made AD what it is.  An excellent PCB layout tool.  The FPGA/embedded stuff has been there for quite some time.  Never once thought to use it instead of the Xilinx or Altera tools I've used that work very well.  But you pay for that.  Or high speed tools.  Some people don't need that.  But you pay for it.  And so on... AD should just be released in a 'standard' form which would be very similar to CS in feature set.  And then you just bill up from there.  Each add on you pay for and each has subscription/support fees.  If you need it, you have to buy it and will.  But why buy everything?!?  I'm sure they've looked at this model.  Many other competitors do just this.

I also wondered why companies didn't price software products based on revenue.  I'm in this weird spot where all of the powerful tools, which would help a startup immensely, are the same price whether I make negative dollars or millions of dollars.  The sad part is that we find our alternates and will stick with them far past the point in the future of being able to afford 'better' tools simply due to legacy.  You could just send a tax document   I guess you'd get too much exploitation or something. 

Enough jibber-jabber for me!

[VEGETA]

Before the lower cost option of something like CS, you had to be a professional to justify paying for AD.

Well, you hit the truth there. CS is meant to be a very efficient lower cost tool that does just the important stuff which is PCB design. If one need other stuff, he can look elsewhere. < they defined it like this in their video.

Now, I am not an expert in PCB design market but surely I want to be one in the future... I really liked CS and think it is a true professional tool without any doubt. However, if I want to get into PCB design industry and have a career there... how to do that? is CS a good choice?

I saw that AD is like the industry standard out there so any PCB designer must know how to use it. And from what I read here and in other places, CS seems to be very near to AD. Meaning, if one masters CS, he can use AD with no problems. Is that correct?

I still have to get into PCB design industry but I don't know where and how to start. I see people actually buy a license for themselves of eagle/diptrace/cs... while the companies they work in have their own licenses. That is weird to me. what about consulting? how is it done here?

thanks

[VEGETA]

I tried CS on my weak laptop (HP ProBook 4510s) and it keeps telling me "out of memory"! this is just to load a component from a library! meaning all core2due laptops are nearly useless (I know they are too old and retarded now, so it is not really a con).

[VEGETA]

I tried CS on my weak laptop (HP ProBook 4510s) and it keeps telling me "out of memory"! this is just to load a component from a library! meaning all core2due laptops are nearly useless (I know they are too old and retarded now, so it is not really a con).

Altium software are always resource hunger. When loading a large PCB layout, even with the latest Intel integrated GPU it still lags, and I'm talking about its 2D mode!

I plan to buy an Asus laptop which has at least 2GB GDDR5 nVIDIA GPU card with 8 GB ram and i7-quad-core cpu along with 17.3' screen. If this is not capable of running these software on full capacity... then I will just retire!